got milk?

[Guest guest]

I have sided with milk, even commercial milk. However, in doing so, I do not side with those who vilify devotees. When a devotee takes a humble stance, he should NOT be criticized for doing so. And, there are many years of tears caused by those professing to follow the principles of sadhana bhakti, but have no idea what is meant by bhakti yoga.

 

The first stage of bhakti, kanistha adhikari, is not a position to criticize, and in doing so, I see no difference in those who criticize the uttama adhikari. The offensive stage of bhakti is a STAGE OF BHAKTI, so get off your holier than thou attitude that because ya follow principles, mostly grudgingly, that others may fall short of and need your spiritual guidance. If theist follows you and adheres like you do, then are you prepared to be his guru (only gurus criticize out of love, not envy), therefore agree to take on all his karma.

 

Pride comes before the fall. To follow the four regs is nothing to think you are spiritual because ya do these things. And no one follows them either, because, from this thread, we see that even vegetarians who eat lettuce eat meat in the form of thousands and millions of living beings being crunched by the teeth. Drink milk? Okay, fisheater, drink it, but dont proclaim that you follow the regs.

 

Preach on, theist, I d rather hear from a real person than a proud one ready for a big fall. Yo bro, mahaksadasa

[krsna]

 

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[theist]

 

therefore agree to take on all his karma.

 

 

Yes! Who wants my karmic debt for Christmas? No one? Yeah I know, I don't blame ya, Christs' are rare.

 

For sure Mahak, vegetarians, vegans, Jains and Buddhists et all, we all slaughter with every breath. Now Arjuna, there was a truly peacfull man.

 

Let us not pass on Babhru's request for a reference.

[stonehearted]

theist:

For sure Mahak, vegetarians, vegans, Jains and Buddhists et all, we all slaughter with every breath.

 

 

I've alsways been amused by the Jains. They're so self righteous about their nonviolence, and they wear those masks to keep them from breathing anyone in. But whoever it is is just being smashed against the mask. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

Ill never forget how wonderful tthe depiction was in the mo9vie, Men In Black, of that universe located in the jewel on the cats neck.

 

I did not for a second doubt the authenticity of such depiction, even by hollywood. Krsna is great, but he calls himself the smallest of the small. In the relative world, every one is mid-range. Even Lord Br4ahma, as great as he is to us, found out at Lord Narayanas door that many brahmas far surpassed him, that he, too, is a minor player.

 

So if we think of advanced human beings (after all, there are 800,000 species of humans, and only about 5 or 6 on this planet that we can see), how many live in such a universe small enough to fit in a jewel around a cats neck.'

 

When I say breathe in, Im not talking about germs, Im talking advanced civilizations, nano-speaking (or more like "nanu-nanu" for those Ive left behind by goin of the wall lie dat).

 

Haribol, happy mary day, Mary Christmas. yo bro, mahak

 

ps That cow looks sad, but muddy cows are normal, even mon mohini always found a way to sleep in the mud, and she was most-protected.

[vijay]

Haribol prabhu here are some references to the sources of prasad being benifited.

 

master or teacher's wife, guroh patni. Brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani raja-patnika. And the queen, the wife of the king. Dhenu, cow; dhenur dhatri, maidservant, nurse. Because it was also formerly the practice, rich man, or mother is not unable to suck breast milk. So they used to employ young girls who has also children. Otherwise there is no milk supplied. So that is also mother. As Krsna took Putana as mother... Putana came to kill Krsna, smearing poison over her breast. And Krsna sucked the milk and her life also. But Krsna took her as (His) her mother. This is Krsna. Krsna did not take the black side. The intention was to kill Krsna, Putana came. But who can kill Krsna? That is not possible. But Krsna thought Himself as obligation, that "I have sucked her breast. So she is My mother. She must be given the position of mother." So Putana, after being killed, she was given the same opportunity as Mother Yasoda. This is Krsna. Bhava-grahi-janardanah. Any way you serve Krsna, it will be accepted. Not any way. I mean to say, we should serve Krsna according to regulative principle. Still, some way or other, unknowing or knowingly, if you render some service, that is called ajnata-sukrti.

Ajnata means without your knowledge you are advancing in spiritual life. That is called ajnata-sukrti. You do not know. But the system is so nice...

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

The pure devotees always serve Krsna with great love and affection, for He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul of every living entity. It is concluded therefore that even a little energy expended in the service of the Lord gives one immense transcendental profit. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: svalpam apy asya dharmasya. Devotional service in Krsna consciousness is so sublime that even a little service to Krsna, knowingly or unknowingly, gives one the greatest benefit. The system of worshiping Krsna by offering flowers from a tree is also beneficial for the living entity who is confined to the bodily existence of that tree. When flowers and fruits are offered to Krsna, the tree that bore them also receives much benefit, indirectly. The arcana process, or worshiping procedure, is therefore beneficial for everyone. Krsna is worshipable by great demigods like Brahma and Lord Siva, and Putana was so fortunate that the same Krsna played in her lap as a little child. The lotus feet of Krsna, which are worshiped by great sages and devotees, were placed on the body of Putana. People worship Krsna and offer food, but automatically He sucked the milk from the body of Putana. Devotees therefore pray that if simply by offering something as an enemy, Putana got so much benefit, then who can measure the benefit of worshiping Krsna in love and affection?

One should only worship Krsna if for no other reason than so much benefit awaits the worshiper. Although Putana was an evil spirit, she gained elevation just like the mother of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is clear that the cows and the elderly gopis who offered milk to Krsna were also elevated to the transcendental position. Krsna can offer anyone anything, from liberation to anything materially conceivable. Therefore, there cannot be any doubt of the salvation of Putana, whose bodily milk was sucked by Krsna for such a long time. And how can there be any doubt about the salvation of the gopis who were so fond of Krsna? Undoubtedly all the gopis and cowherd boys and cows who served Krsna in Vrndavana with love and affection were liberated from the miserable condition of material existence.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. Machine was not made for chanting Hare Krsna, but we are utilizing it so that the machine-maker may be benefited. Because we employ everyone's energy to Krsna. So by his energy he has manufactured this machine, so we are employing in Krsna's service so that he may be benefited, purified. We are showing him the mercy. Just like one flower picked up from a plant offered to Krsna is offering benefit to that plant. Because his energy is in the service of Krsna. Similarly, the person who has manufactured this machine, when it is employed in Krsna consciousness business, he's benefited. Indirectly, we are giving him opportunity, although he does not know it. But his energy is being utilized for Krsna. We offer prasadam, the same principle. A man does not know about Krsna. But he wants to eat. By eating, he'll be gradually Krsna conscious. So you have... Our business is to give opportunity to all forgotten souls to be engaged in Krsna consciousness, today or tomorrow. The boys and girls who have come to this society, they have accumulated in that way, knowingly or unknowingly, some Krsna conscious qualification, and therefore they have taken this opportunity. (Pause) We have no dog friend. (Laughs)

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

YS

 

Vijay

[krsna]

k

 

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theist]

 

"But," someone may ask, "isn't milk necessary for spiritual advancement?" Scripturally, this is not accurate. Devotion is not dependent on any material cause or circumstance. Nothing is needed to be Krishna conscious except love for Krishna.

 

Milk is said to contain subtle mental nutrients. However, there is a gulf of difference between modern milk and ideal milk. Modern milk comes from cows that live in fear, are pumped with antibiotics and hormones, and fed ground-up cows, road-kills, chicken manure, and a host of other ghastly products to increase milk production. This so-called "milk" is then homogenized, pasteurized, refrigerated and polluted with Vitamin D3 (which in some cases can be fish oil). The cows that produce this so-called "milk" live a continuous cycle of impregnation, birth and milking in order to produce milk for human consumption. They are milked for 10 months of the year, and for seven of those months, they are also pregnant. After giving birth, the cow's offspring is taken from her (males are killed as “veal” and females are raised as milkers). The cow is then put back into intensive milk production. After 3-4 years of dedicated service (exploitation) they are slaughtered.

 

The ideal milk, glorified in the ancient scriptures, flows from cows who are loved like "mothers," protected and allowed to graze on grass in open fields.

 

 

[gHari]

 

And maybe this has been mentioned already, but wouldn't they just kill the females if we didn't offer them a monetary reason not to.

 

[theist]

gHari, first thing is they do kill the females. They kill them for slaughter for meat as soon as their milk production begins to slide. But this is after they have artifically impregnented them every year to keep the milk flowing. By artifically impregnating them they produce an unnatural amount of cow births. Of these unnatural births they are procided with more males to be sold as veal calves and more females to us as milk producers, even more calve producers and finally to be sold themselves for meat.

 

As demand tapered off they would gradually impregnate less cows, producing less calves to be killed and etc. a reversal of the process.

 

The present dairy industry is pure evil.

[theist]

I am not sure what is meant by quoting the example of Putana. vijay are you saying devotees offer milk in the mood of Putana and are still benefited anyway?

[harekrishnadas]

<font color="brown">

Hare Krishna Prabhus,

Please accept my humble obeisances !!! All glories to Srila Prabhupada !!! All glories to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga !!!

 

Don’t let my userid mislead you. I am not initiated or anything - a total neophyte. Some nice Vaishanvas gave me their association and made me become interested in this philosophy. Started hearing it on and off for about 3 yrs now. As far as my credentials go despite the association of these pure Vaishnavas I have all the anarthas. I am barely able to follow the regulative principles that too with great difficulty. So yep I am a hypocrite, rascal , scoundrel, cheat and what not. Alrite so now that we have that cleared lets move to the topic at hand. Did I mention I was a bit slow and dimwit?

 

Theist Prabhu, Though I am impressed with your dedication to PETA and animal care etc.. I am not sure how stopping devotees from using milk in their offering to Krishna will help in saving the cows. The only benefit I can see is the publicity factor.

</font color> <font color="red">

Throughout this discussion time and again you have been equating honoring of Prasadam (milk /milk products offered to Krishna) to the inhuman act of slaughtering cows, eating beef, stealing and prostitution rings!!! I feel this is very unfair and insult to all the devotees. I have posted some of your quotes below for easy reference.

</font color>

Thiest : “No body can force anyone to stop this practice of taking dairy from slaughtered cows but then please don't turn around and lecture the world on cow protection, you give up that right when you drink milk from a murdered cow.”

 

<font color="brown"> Okay, so are you suggesting either stop drinking milk and preach cow protection OR Don't preach about cow protection at all ? SO are you saying that since most people here have expressed their inability to give up taking milk prasadam for various reasons – they don’t even preach about cow protection ??

 

If we extrapolate your idea to preaching of Krishna consciousness - would it mean a neophyte like myself should not be preaching about Krishna Consciousness to non-devotees (ofcourse assuming there are no senior Vaishnavas around) since I am not yet Krishna conscious? </font color>

 

Thiest : “Again you want to hide in the crowd but Supersoul follows you. By not eating meating meat wearing leather and drinking milk you are protecting some cows that would have been killed. 1 out of a billion is still 1.”

 

Thiest : 'That is nice but you are still hiding. "Cows" Maybe just one cow that will be saved by you.'

 

Thiest : "if we all gave up drinking milk". I am not speaking to all I am speaking to you. No hiding in the herd. It is easily demonstrated how you are contributing to cow slaughter with every glass of milk you buy.

Theist : "Yes and I have really seen this misused. Prostitution rings for Krsna. Organized stealing for Krsna. What about hamburger stands for Krsna?"

 

 

<font color="blue"> Vijay : “I agree krishna acted as an example, not just in cow protection but many other things (he gave gita as the ultimate compassion for living entities), by us drinking or not drinking the milk wont protect the cow any more or less aslong as there are meat eaters.

Krishna conciousness being spread through society will result in cow protection.”

 

</font color> <font color="brown"> I think I agree most with Vijay Prabhu’s above statement on this issue. </font color>

 

Theist : “As demand tapered off they would gradually impregnate less cows, producing less calves to be killed and etc. a reversal of the process.”

 

<font color="brown"> Maybe I am really thick.

But the way I understand is the more the milk consumption the more the chances of cow survival/care/protection.

Lets take an example : Hearing all your arguments - suppose Vijay prabhu and family decide that they won’t use cow’s milk for Prasadam. Suppose they were spending $100 for milk/milk prasadam every month – so annually around $1200. Now for the farmer or whoever owned the cow – its $ 1200 less money. If more people stop consuming milk – a huge loss for those cattle herders. They would have to kill these milk yielding cows. They would probably full scale move towards beef ranchers and leather industry

</font color>

 

Theist :”gHari, first thing is they do kill the females. They kill them for slaughter for meat as soon as their milk production begins to slide. But this is after they have artifically impregnented them every year to keep the milk flowing. By artifically impregnating them they produce an unnatural amount of cow births. Of these unnatural births they are procided with more males to be sold as veal calves and more females to us as milk producers, even more calve producers and finally to be sold themselves for meat.”

 

<font color="brown">

I agree the above process is horrible – but how will stopping milk usage change the above process. Please prove using the above example that atleast one cow will be saved if a devotee stops using milk Prasadam !!! I have never worked on a farm/cattle maybe you have some inner knowledge about how this works. I want to know what exactly would happen behind the scenes when milk consumption drops that would result in cows being saved.

 

I am repasting the NEWS articles from your post in support of my assertion.

</font color>

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/money/3990386/detail.html

<font color="red">

More Dairy Cows Slated For Slaughter

Milk Producers Want To Cut Production, Keep Prices Up

POSTED: 3:03 pm EST December 11, 2004

WASHINGTON -- A dairy trade group is expanding a program that pays farmers to kill some of their dairy cows to keep milk prices up.

The National Milk Producers Federation will pay farmers to send nearly 52,000 dairy cows to slaughter over the next few months. The federation said the program will remove 931 million pounds of milk from the nation's food supply.

This is the second year the group is paying farmers to reduce the amount of milk on the market. In the program's first year, 35,000 cows were slaughtered, removing 600 million pounds of milk.

 

….</font color>

*************************

 

<font color="brown"> The above article proves that as consumption would drop they would either throw away

the milk or worse still kill the cattle !!!

 

And as for Putana – what I understood is that anybody who makes an offering(directly and indirectly) to Krishna will benefit to extent of their devotion/dedication. So both the cow and person offering will be benefited.

 

I am reusing some of Bhabru Prabhu’s words :

Very often I see vegans/PETA/atheists… trumpet that the cows are benefited by devotees not using milk prasdam. However, I have never, ever seen any evidence offered in support of this assertion. Can anyone here do so? I'm talking about real evidence; any inference should be supported by full evidence.

 

Haribol !

 

</font color>

[theist]

www.milksucks.com

[vijay]

"Very often I see devotees trumpet that the cows (and the farmers , too I guess?) are benefited by our offering their milk. However, I have never, ever seen any evidence offered in support of this assertion. Can anyone here do so? I'm talking about real evidence; any inference should be supported by shastric evidence."

 

Haribol theist prabhu those words from srila prabhupada are a response to babhru prabhu's request as above.

 

And just to carry on with Harekrishnadas's logic if you look at the dairy industry you will find that there are restrictions on milk producing due to over supply in the EU and America (milk quotas), this surplus has been increasing over the years, thus now governemnt tax breaks have been introduced and the killing of dairy cows to keep prices high enough for farmers to profit. The point is that these cows will be killed anyway for the slaughter industry, milking cows give the farmers extra revenue.

 

Therefore my assertion is that you wont actually save any cows, instaed if we stop drinking milk as a country then only cows for slaughter will be bread, rather than milking cows + slaughter cows. The milksucks website gives no information on this, you'll have to look at other places which gives stats on the dairy industry and the slaughter industry.

 

And as you can see from the quotes its clear that offering the milk benifits the cow. We are not minimalists like jains, above mode of goodness is the trancendental benifit, which one does not get for millions of births, to just refrain is also not mercy.

 

Its like the humanists giving food to starving africans, its a very good moral thing but without spirtual benifit, its tempoarary, and even materially its feeble and not going to the root as the hunger comes about due to mans greed, if people really dont want africans to starve then try and change humans hearts that are the cause of it, governements etc. Else you are doing nothing to fix it, instead of going to the root of the problem you try and patch it up, but make your self feel better by chucking abit of food, extended sense gratification.

 

1 example - by paying your taxes you are the cause for millions of africans suffering rape famine toture due to british and american arms selling to african warlords, this is worse as if not more worse than animal slaughter, is the answer to refrain and stop working and leave your country? No its to use whatever you get, your money assistance from that same government etc to spread Krishna conciousness, we are not jains that belive in minimisation, our philosophy is yukta vairagya using everything in krishnas service and puryfing it.

 

If we have a purer means like our own milk then we will use that. Cow protection is not our main business, niether is varnashrama, niether is building gurukulas nor temples, its whatever is favourable for our krishna conciousness and others.

 

I dont see any evidence that by us not drinking milk it will save even one cow (all that happens is that the dairy cow is swapped with a non dairy cow), and also we are not bhudists our philosophy isnt ahimsa its yukta vairgya to engage everything in krishnas service, i rather die an early death and get ajnata sukriti which will stop my repeated birth and death eventually, not live an extra 10 years and never getting any of krishnas mercy repeating birth and death continously, it would be foolish.

 

 

 

 

[harekrishnadas]

Hare Krishna !!!

 

Vijay Prabhu - Your above posting addresses this issue perfectly.

I think we all agree that a lot of work needs to be done regarding cow protection issue and if some devotees can abstain from using milk well - thats very good. But its unfair that devotees who are spending their lives spreading Krishna Consciousness be criticized for making milk offerings to the Lord.

 

Haribol !!!

[theist]

indeed it is wonderful that your actions are on the transcendental plane.

 

Hare Krsna

[harekrishnadas]

Hare Krishna !!!

 

 

Theist Prabhu, I know you are being sarcastic but thats fine. I guess I deserve it.

 

I had seen the milksucks.com site before, went thru it again today. Its really sad to see the horrible conditions these poor animals have to live in and the pain and suffering they go through.

 

Anyways, I have never understood the double standards practised in the western countries regarding ill treatment of pets dogs, cats etc vis a vis farms animals like cows. I have watched Animals cops shows on TV where the owners receive citation/fines/etc.. for improperly treating pets, not giving them proper medical attention, not cleaning them etc.. How come the same laws are not applied to farm animals ? Are there different laws for farm animals and pets ?

 

Haribol !!!

[theist]

pets provide companionship and entertainment, farm animals provide food in the form flesh eggs and milk. So the worth of their lives is calculated on the basis of how and in what way the animals are most useful to humans.

 

You have been through that site a couple of times and yet you still feel like drinking milk. There is nothing else I can say.

 

please accept my respects,

 

Hare Krsna

[stonehearted]

Vijay's quotations are rather indirect and don't yet serve as the kind of support I requested. The Putana stuff isn't quite analogous because she actually offered her milk, albeit with impure motives. The best in the last is the reference to picking a flower, but it may not be on point to the extent that would be most helpful. And it's often been abused to justify stealing flowers from neighbors (which, according to Hari Bhakti Vilas, are unofferable anyway).

 

I probably won't be around to bother anyone until New Year's Day. My wife and I are going to California to spend some time with our daughters and other family. But don't forget your homework. There will be prizes for the best answers!

 

Have a wonderful Christmas (and/or whatever greetings you may find appropriate), y'all!

 

Babhru

[gHari]

Isn't that a good thing. Cows will be born; jivas will need to be in the cow form.

 

Cows seem to like grazing and chewing their cud. If I don't buy her milk she will be murdered right now. But then is my money tilting the economic equation making veal viably cheaper? It's very complex I agree, so we must leave it up to Caitya guru. My simple feeling is that He is okay with milk. I think that if Krsna was offended Srila Prabhupada would have known.

 

[vijay]

Devotee (3): Is it possible that somehow or another at that particular time and place, God would have said "Eat cows"? Because in Bhagavad-gita Krsna clearly says go-raksya, cow protection. And that instruction would also be eternal.

Prabhupada: Go-raksya, the point is that cow's milk is very important. Therefore specifically mentioned go-raksya. Krsna does not say that don't eat meat. It is not really said that meat-eating is forbidden. But meat-eating is tamasika, pramadya (indistinct). But He's speaking of go-raksya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk, which will help us in keeping our health in order and developing very nice brain tissues to understand spiritual subject matter. Fish-eaters, they're all dull. They cannot understand finer philosophy of life. Meat-eating, not good. But the sudras, and the less than sudras, they eat. But for them there's lower animals, not cow.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

The below conversation is interesting, maybe if we sell our dead cows to butchers, then cow protection can become more viable than it is now. Im not too sure if by regulation we are allowed to do that. But an interesting conversation anyway.

 

 

Pusta Krsna: What we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them, there's no..., everything's wasted. Srila Prabhupada is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cow hide we properly tan it, we can make mrdanga heads for the khol, and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection.

Prabhupada: Beef, especially beef.

Pusta Krsna: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kirtanananda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupada says Why superstitious? The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow, the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say, in India, how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupada proposed that "If you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?"

Prabhupada: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection?

Pusta Krsna: It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupada says, for the saner section, they will accept.

Hari-sauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat.

Prabhupada: Madman...

Pusta Krsna: But they still get it.

Prabhupada: But he'll get meat.

Hari-sauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply.

Prabhupada: No why should...? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for..., he's permanently. Why should you kill?

Pusta Krsna: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do.

Dhrstadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is...

Prabhupada: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death.

Dhrstadyumna: But the old flesh is not...

Prabhupada: Anyway, you do not..., you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat.

Dhrstadyumna: This should be the system.

Pusta Krsna: It's so reasonable.

Prabhupada: Yes. We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin, we can utilize it.

Pusta Krsna: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mrdanga making. So give us the skin. That's all.

Pusta Krsna: Prabhupada says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge.

Hari-sauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Krsna consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse...

Prabhupada: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop, you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything."

Dhrstadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: (laughs) No, no, this is... Think over.

Hari-sauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact.

Prabhupada: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see.

Dhrstadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything...

Prabhupada: He's not going to pay us. You simply take it and sell it.

Pusta Krsna: They sell meat..., for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money...

Dhrstadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the conditions.

Prabhupada: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business.

Hari-sauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then...

Prabhupada: That is artificial.

Hari-sauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have.

Prabhupada: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the agreement. After all, we require the skin for our khol making.

Dhrstadyumna: For the farm straps?

Pusta Krsna: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kirtanananda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making things, straps.

Hari-sauri: They're not doing it now, though.

Prabhupada: But we should not do it ourselves.

Dhrstadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis.

Prabhupada: That is not our business.

Dhrstadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us.

Prabhupada: Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them.

Hari-sauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that.

Prabhupada: I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical.

Hari-sauri: That's very good.

Prabhupada: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that you are eating, you can eat. And we want the skin, let us give him. What is the wrong there?

Pusta Krsna: Perfect economics.

Prabhupada: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat.

Pusta Krsna: Could such a thing be done today in India also?

Prabhupada: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be. That is the... Who does not eat meat? First of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted?

Dhrstadyumna: Practical preaching.

Hari-sauri: We can't stop meat-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals.

Pusta Krsna: That would be a great step forward.

Prabhupada: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class, and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications--brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra and candala. Candalas, they will remain, and they are eating. Let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the candala class, they eat.

Pusta Krsna: Even cows, cow flesh.

Prabhupada: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers.

Dhrstadyumna: Christian.

Prabhupada: Christians.

Hari-sauri: Even they're exporting beef from India.

Prabhupada: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes.

Pusta Krsna: And they don't consider whether it's a young fish or an old fish.

Dhrstadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals.

Prabhupada: No, no. This is all wrong conception.

Dhrstadyumna: They will say..., simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older.

Prabhupada: They are eating so many rotten things.

Dhrstadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it.

Prabhupada: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow. Puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup?

Pusta Krsna: Clam chowder? So many things.

Prabhupada: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing "What is this? I asked after lobster soup."

Pusta Krsna: In England? Oysters?

Prabhupada: No, lobsters.

Pusta Krsna: With the big pinchers.

Hari-sauri: They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise.

Prabhupada: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster fat, and black creepers, and cashews, they exported. The big, big business firms are exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that.

Hari-sauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Hari-sauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich.

Prabhupada: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it in there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, within three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottles. That is called naphi. And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi, and they'll relish it.

Pusta Krsna: Barbers?

Prabhupada: Burma.

Pusta Krsna: That's the most...

Prabhupada: And when you fry luci, all the other tenants will come "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened..., my Guru Maharaja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gauranga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry puri, the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) "Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?" And the naphi, they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste.

Pusta Krsna: That's the ultimate.

Dhrstadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars of snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it.

Hari-sauri: Pickled snakes.

Prabhupada: Snakes.

Dhrstadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid.

Prabhupada: They put in the jar alive?

Dhrstadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar.

Hari-sauri: It's like a pickle, they pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take.

Prabhupada: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it?

Dhrstadyumna: They cut off the head, flesh.

Prabhupada: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake. Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese?

Dhrstadyumna: Yes.

Prabhupada: They eat anything.

Pusta Krsna: So many abominable things.

Hari-sauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it.

Pusta Krsna: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy--I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What, you're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter)

Dhrstadyumna: There was one big, big professor we met in the college...

Pusta Krsna: It's hard to understand that prasadam is (indistinct). (laughter)

Dhrstadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat--the worm, the cockroach, the beetle--and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects.

Hari-sauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate-coated ants, grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff.

Pusta Krsna: The English think that way, anyway.

Hari-sauri: They all do.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Pusta Krsna: The English think the French eat abominable foods.

Dhrstadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Srila Prabhupada, acting.

Prabhupada: Kadarya bhaksana.

Hari-sauri: It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement.

Pusta Krsna: Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. I should inform Kirtanananda Swami about some of these ideas?

Prabhupada: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher.

Hari-sauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that?

Prabhupada: Oh, no. We can use it.

Hari-sauri: The skim milk, after they've...

Prabhupada: What is that? Explain.

Hari-sauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away.

Prabhupada: How give it to the cows?

Hari-sauri: They feed it to the cows.

Prabhupada: They eat?

Hari-sauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the..., mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land.

Prabhupada: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chana.

Hari-sauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that.

Prabhupada: Yes, not yogurt, chana, what you call, curd?

Pusta Krsna: Cheese, like cheese.

Prabhupada: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations.

Hari-sauri: I'll mention it to Kuladri then.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta Krsna: You mentioned also about the whey that you get.

Prabhupada: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for capati.

Pusta Krsna: Making dough?

Prabhupada: Capati, just like you dip the capati, dal, you can dip whey. You can save dal preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it.

Hari-sauri: Yes. That's what I thought, that's why I was asking.

Prabhupada: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized.

Hari-sauri: Everything.

Pusta Krsna: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get?

Prabhupada: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human beings. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end)

 

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[theist]

Devotee (3): Is it possible that somehow or another at that particular time and place, God would have said "Eat cows"? Because in Bhagavad-gita Krsna clearly says go-raksya, cow protection. And that instruction would also be eternal.

Prabhupada: Go-raksya, the point is that cow's milk is very important. Therefore specifically mentioned go-raksya. Krsna does not say that don't eat meat. It is not really said that meat-eating is forbidden. But meat-eating is tamasika, pramadya (indistinct). But He's speaking of go-raksya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk, which will help us in keeping our health in order and developing very nice brain tissues to understand spiritual subject matter. Fish-eaters, they're all dull. They cannot understand finer philosophy of life. Meat-eating, not good. But the sudras, and the less than sudras, they eat. But for them there's lower animals, not cow.

 

 

...that IF we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk,...

[vijay]

"But He's speaking of go-raksya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk"

 

My point was that its a material thing unless engaged for krishna.

 

"...that IF we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk,..."

 

Yes so srila prabhupada and his disciple are hypocrites for drinking the milk of unprotected cows. right? better the cows live an extra few years than they get benifited by their milk offered to krishna, ASSUMING that they actually get a few extra years by not drinking thier milk.

 

You have the right not to drink milk due to compassion/sentiment/your understanding of philosophy

But not the right to call others hypocrites

-without knowing for certain whether your are actually benifiting the cow in the first place by not drinking thier milk.

-Without actually knowing whats more benificial not to drink milk or to offer it to krishna.

-without providing evidence that our acarya (Prabhupada) was wrong to drink commercial milk and therefore we should not follow him in this regard.

 

Haribol

 

 

[theist]

 

My point was that its a material thing unless engaged for krishna.

 

 

That's true of everything done or not done. Perhaps someone decides to refrain from cow slaughter as an offering to Krsna?

 

Suppose someone wants to speak out on behalf of the helpless and voiceless ceatures of this world as their path of karma/bhakti-yoga, an offering to Krsna?

 

Animal slaughter is a cause of war. Animal slaughters and buthchers cannot comprehend the finer points of Krsna consciousness. That's in the Bhagavatam. Those involved may lose their human form and slide down towards hell. Someone maybtry to dissuade them from this path, as an offering to Krsna.

 

Do you assume that the only way of making offerings to the Lord is through an arotika ceremony?

[vijay]

"Do you assume that the only way of making offerings to the Lord is through an arotika ceremony? "

 

Nope,

 

"Animal slaughter is a cause of war. Animal slaughters and buthchers cannot comprehend the finer points of Krsna consciousness. "

 

I agree, but they still may get ajnata sukriti like the tree does when a fruit is offered, and it also may not safe a cow to refrain as described in the previous post.

 

"Suppose someone wants to speak out on behalf of the helpless and voiceless ceatures of this world as their path of karma/bhakti-yoga, an offering to Krsna?"

"Perhaps someone decides to refrain from cow slaughter as an offering to Krsna?"

 

Thats fine, my only point is be careful of branding those devotees who do have milk as hypocries, i dont see anything wrong in devotees encouraging or educating devotees on what the cow goes through, it may make us reliese how much we have to do, but to brand anyone that does not follow refraining from milk hypocrites is dangerous especially in an issue where its not so black and white.

 

"Perhaps someone decides to refrain from cow slaughter as an offering to Krsna?"

Im not sure if that benifits the cow spitually but i guess you get good karma, and krsna may see it as a good thing just like giving up meat eating gambiling etc for krishna, the only differnce is that milk is offerable, none of the four regs are. Maybe its more analogous to using clothes made by child labour or not, is it better we use them in krishnas service or refrain from using them, whats more benificial? I guess the difference there is that if we stop using them then its stops, with milk, the milk cows get replaced by normal cows for slaughter.