got milk?

[theist]

perhaps.

 

 

Or am i now getting silly? where do we draw the line? guru?

 

 

Guru directed cow protection. Commercial milk is directly cow slaughter. You do the math.

 

 

[vijay]

Guru directed to protect the oxen as well, by eating tractor produced food your directly contributing to oxen slaughter. Thus we should not also eat food produced by tractors as this also directly contributes to oxen slaugheter.

 

http://www.krishna.com/newsite/printarticles/Green_Tractor.html

 

Anayway we are going to go round and round again. Prabhupada asked us to set up cow protection/farm communities, he never once said give up commercial milk, or buy foods only from non-tractor using farms, even though he recognised tractors contributed to oxen slaughter.

 

My Dear Nityananda,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated February 21st, 1977, and I have noted the contents. The New Talavan Review and the brochure are both very nicely done and I thank you for them.

So far as Gurukula is concerned, literary education is for the Brahminical class, not for all. Others should learn by seeing, like the ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. Just like driving a bullock cart; it doesn't require education. Modern so-called education is simply a waste of time producing hippies. Shameless! Why compulsory education? To make hippies--compulsory education to degrade. So it is very fortunate that there is no compulsory education required by the state of Mississippi.

Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it. Produce oil from castor seeds and stock the oil sufficiently. It can be used in so many ways--for burning, grease, cooking, and as a purgative to cure all diseases. And oxen can be used for driving carts and go preaching village to village. What is the question of killing them? Here in India our Lokanatha Maharaja has successfully organized such a program and it is a great success. He has travelled all over India and everywhere they distribute books, prasadam and perform kirtana, village to village. Each night they stop at a different village. We can introduce many millions of such carts all over the world.

If you are getting enough milk from the cows simply by pasturing them, then that is all right. But if you require more then you may have to feed them special grains. We want to do whatever is easy and save time for Krishna consciousness.

As far as you are able to adjust to a natural way of life, do it immediately. Our principle is that we are against nothing and for nothing. Only for Krishna. We want whatever is favorable for Krishna.

I am returning one Deity photo to you. This dressing style is not authorized. But the other photos are very nice. Please go on very enthusiastically developing your farming community. I hope this meets you in the best of health.

 

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

There are gradations from the ideal and whatever evryone can do is great. But im against those that try and make commercial milk abstenace like the fifth regulative principle. The ideal is live on a farm, then you wont contribute to any slaughter, using oxen to create your food, and as your transport. We have the minimum standards given by srila prabhupada and then we have his ideal vision, its up to all of us how far each of us go to meet the ideal vedic society, to demonise those that dont come to your standard is not what prabhupada wanted, he encouraged us to meet the ideal but was happy with those that met the minimum and became krsna concious.

 

"We want to do whatever is easy and save time for Krishna consciousness.

As far as you are able to adjust to a natural way of life, do it immediately. Our principle is that we are against nothing and for nothing. Only for Krishna. We want whatever is favorable for Krishna."

 

Anyway looks like we're doing another circle round.

 

Haribol

 

[theist]

I'm not walking in circles with you vijay. My points are very simple. Remember what set you off so many posts ago. The word hypocrite.

 

My position remains the same. I see it as hypocrisy to preach cow protection and at the same time slaughter them for their milk.

 

You disagree, that's fine and your right.

 

 

[vijay]

Srila prabhupada has given us the basic formula to become krishna concious. If milk from commercial cows is so bad he should of empasised it. especially if little things such as tea and coffee even choclate he talked about. He was also strong on onion and garlic, no mention of commercial milk in a bad light.

 

Prabhupada also preaches simple living and high thinking, yet bhaktisidhanta maharaj rode in to radha kund in a jaguar(I think). Prabhupada made use of so many complicated things. Is this him contridicting himself? No its the principle of yukta vairagya, just as using milk from non protected cows and then preaching cow protection?

 

I agree im a hypocite but dont agree that when pure devotees who dedicate 100% of their lives in krsnas service and drink commercial milk they are hypocrites, I guess from PETA's mundane point of view they are, but not from krsnas point of view, from krsnas point of view they are like a touchstone and whatever they come in to contact with is greatly benifited.

Hari Hari

[vijay]

I guess we should be as thoughtful as possible, I remember the example of radhanatha swami, he saw that some of his diciples would ignore the beggers, from then he asked all his disciples to keep prashad with them to give to the beggers. I was thinking whats the big deal?

 

So I asked one of the bramhacharis why was maharaj so concerned about it.

 

The bramhachari said that by ignoring the sufferings of others the heart becomes hard, and spiritual life with a hard heart is impossible.

 

I remember the first time i went to india i felt so bad for all the poor people and beggers, after hearing form others just to ignore it I slowly become oblivious to thier suffering, now again im trying to give something whenever i go and slowly that compassion is increasing again as im at least akcnowledging them now.

 

I think its the same with this milk issue, if we dont use the suffering of the cow to make our hearts softer may be by minimising milk or contributing to cow care then we'll miss an oppotunity to make our hearts soft, even by seeing world poverty and all the other injustices in the world and actually akcnowledging it we can regain renewed inspiration to do something about it, either by direct action or/and through renewed preaching spirit. Just like in the films if a soft hearted person sees so mcuh pain and suffering his family being killed, he'll feel it more greatly than someone with a hard heart and thus will be more determined to do something about it.

 

Every time we ignore an issue like this it becomes easier to ignore. Just like when a thief first steals he fights with his concious whether its right or wrong but then it becomes less of a fight with his concious and after a while he doesnt feel any remorse.

 

[theist]

Really we can't become overwhelmed by the enormity of a problem to the point of becoming so numb to it we just ignore it and go along with it. To do so would dimish ourselves. It is the way of life of a defeated spirit.

 

Maybe we can't do much but at least we can refuse to participate in the carnage and perhaps inspire and teach one other to do the same.

 

If one really wants to offer Krsna milk then learn to use the mind. On the physical plane there are so many wonderful drinks and nectars we can make Him.

 

Would Krsna torture and slaughter the cows and calves for a glass of milk? Then why do we assume He wants us to do it for Him?

[krsna]

 

 

Once upon a time, seeing that her maidservant was engaged in different household duties, mother Yasoda personally took charge of churning butter. And while she churned butter, she sang the childhood pastimes of Krsna and enjoyed thinking of her son.

 

The end of her sari was tightly wrapped while she churned, and on account of her intense love for her son, milk automatically dripped from her breasts which moved as she labored very hard, churning with two hands. The bangles and bracelets on her hands tinkled as they touched each other, and her earrings and breasts shook. There were drops of perspiration on her face, and the flower garland which was on her head scattered here and there. Before this picturesque sight, Lord Krsna appeared as a child. He felt hungry, and out of love for His mother, He wanted her to stop churning. He indicated that her first business was to let Him suck her breast and then churn butter later.

 

Mother Yasoda took her son on her lap and pushed the nipples of her breasts into His mouth. And while Krsna was sucking the milk, she was smiling, enjoying the beauty of her child's face. Suddenly, the milk which was on the oven began to boil over. Just to stop the milk from spilling, mother Yasoda at once put Krsna aside and went to the oven. Left in that state by His mother, Krsna became very angry, and His lips and eyes became red in rage. He pressed His teeth and lips, and taking up a piece of stone, He immediately broke the butter pot. He took butter out of it, and with false tears in His eyes, He began to eat the butter in a secluded place.

 

In the meantime, mother Yasoda returned to the churning place after setting the overflowing milk pan in order. She saw the broken pot in which the churning yogurt was kept. Since she could not find her boy, she concluded that the broken pot was His work. She began to smile as she thought, "The child is very clever. After breaking the pot He has left this place, fearing punishment." After she sought all over, she found a big wooden grinding mortar which was kept upside down, and she found her son sitting on it. He was taking butter which was hanging from the ceiling on a swing, and He was feeding it to the monkeys. She saw Krsna looking this way and that way in fear of her because He was conscious of His naughty behavior. After seeing her son so engaged, she very silently approached Him from behind. Krsna, however, quikly saw her coming at Him with a stick in her hand, and immediately He got down from the grinding mortar and began to flee in fear.

 

Mother Yasoda chased Him to all corners, trying to capture the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is never approached even by the meditations of great yogis. In other words, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, who is never caught by the yogis and speculators, was playing just like a little child for a great devotee like mother Yasoda. Mother Yasoda, however, could not easily catch the fast-running child because of her thin waist and heavy body. Still she tried to follow Him as fast as possible. Her hair loosened, and the flower in her hair fell to the ground. Although she was tired, she somehow reached her naughty child and captured Him. When He was caught, Krsna was almost on the point of crying. He smeared His hands over His eyes, which were anointed with black eye cosmetics. The child saw His mother's face while she stood over Him, and His eyes became restless from fear. Mother Yasoda could understand that Krsna was unnecessarily afraid, and for His benefit she wanted to allay His fears.

 

Being the topmost well-wisher of her child, mother Yasoda began to think, "If the child is too fearful of me, I don't know what will happen to Him." Mother Yasoda then threw away her stick. In order to punish Him, she thought to bind His hands with some ropes. She did not know it, but it was actually impossible for her to bind the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mother Yasoda was thinking that Krsna was her tiny child; she did not know that the child had no limitation. There is no inside or outside of Him, nor beginning or end. He is unlimited and all-pervading. Indeed, He is Himself the whole cosmic manifestation. Still, mother Yasoda was thinking of Krsna as her child. Although He is beyond the reach of all senses, she endeavored to bind Him up to a wooden grinding mortar. But when she tried to bind Him, she found that the rope she was using was too short--by two inches. She gathered more ropes from the house and added to it, but at the end she found the same shortage. In this way, she connected all the ropes available at home, but when the final knot was added, she saw that it was still two inches too short. Mother Yasoda was smiling, but she was astonished. How was it happening?

 

In attempting to bind her son, she became tired. She was perspiring, and the garland on her head fell down. Then Lord Krsna appreciated the hard labor of His mother, and being compassionate upon her, He agreed to be bound up by the ropes. Krsna, playing as a human child in the house of mother Yasoda, was performing His own selected pastimes. Of course, no one can control the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The pure devotee surrenders himself unto the lotus feet of the Lord, who may either protect or vanquish the devotee. But for his part, the devotee never forgets his own position of surrender. Similarly, the Lord also feels transcendental pleasure by submitting Himself to the protection of the devotee. This was exemplified by Krsna's surrender unto His mother, Yasoda.

 

Krsna is the supreme bestower of all kinds of liberation to His devotees, but the benediction which was bestowed upon mother Yasoda was never experienced even by Lord Brahma or Lord Siva or the goddess of fortune.

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as the son of Yasoda and Nanda Maharaja, is never so completely known to the yogis and speculators. But He is easily available to His devotees. Nor is He appreciated as the supreme reservoir of all pleasure by the yogis and speculators.

 

After binding her son, mother Yasoda engaged herself in household affairs. At that time, bound up to the wooden mortar, Krsna could see a pair of trees before Him which were known as arjuna trees. The great reservoir of pleasure, Lord Sri Krsna, thus thought to Himself, "Mother Yasoda first of all left without feeding Me sufficient milk, and therefore I broke the pot of yogurt and distributed the stock butter in charity to the monkeys. Now she has bound Me up to a wooden mortar. So I shall do something more mischievous than before." And thus He thought of pulling down the two very tall arjuna trees.

 

----Krsna Book

[gopalapriyadas]

I don't think that Prabhupada was really aware of the huge production and of the significant horrors of the commercial milk industry and I believe that if he was he would have forbidden us to use this milk.

Do you really think that Krsna wants milk that was stolen from a raped, tortured and exploited cow whose babies are taken from her and turned into veal cutlets for karmis to feed their big fat bellies? I think NOT!!! You have heard of blood money... well commercial milk is BLOOD MILK. This milk is poison and if you drink commercial milk then you are going to get the same karma that you would if you eat a hamburger, there is NO difference, you'll get even more karma because you know what you are doing is bad. Don't try to justify your way out of it only to convince yourself that the milk your drinking is authorized... please, your only fooling yourself and I doubt that your even doing that because your not stupid, you know what's up.

Why do you want to drink milk anyway when nowdays there are so many alternatives and besides, milk is not all that healthy for adults to drink. Anyway... Hare Krsna.

 

-Gopalapriya

[vijay]

I think srila prabhupada was aware of cows being milked and slaughtered. Read below.

 

I think many arguments have been presented for and against drinking milk, I think everyone agrees the ideal is to have our own communities, its the grey area in between that we have been debating.

 

A conversation in 1976,

 

Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, they say that only the human has a soul, therefore it's wrong to kill humans. But other animals you can kill because there is no soul. That is their argument.

Devotee (3): They'll ask what should be killed and what shouldn't be killed for eating? Where do we draw the line?

Prabhupada: No, you, we are speaking go-raksya. That is not point of view of killing. There are other animals. We do not say that you stop. If you want to eat some meat, at least don't kill cow. You can kill other insignificant animals which has no importance. Cow has got special importance because it supplies milk, and milk is very essential food that is... From the childhood, a child lives on milk, and there are many saintly persons, they also live by drinking milk. Milk is very important item in the human society, and it supplies all vitamins. Even if you say that "Meat-eating is essential for me," you can eat other animals, but don't kill cows. That is our proposal. Give protection to the cows. Krsna mentioned specifically, go-raksya. He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows. And if you want to eat meat, you can kill other animals. On the whole, pasu-himsa, any animal killing, is not good for spiritual life. And so far vegetable is concerned, everyone has to eat something. So if you can eat vegetables, that does not mean because somebody is killing vegetables, he should kill his own father and mother on that plea. So cow is mother because we are drinking her milk. So you cannot put any argument in favor of killing mother. If you... Anyone who supplies milk from the body, she is mother. According to Vedic civilization, cow is one of the seven mothers. There are seven mothers: the real mother, atma-mata guroh patni, the wife of spiritual master; then queen, raja-patnika. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. In this way, especially, seven mothers, dhenu, dhenu means cow, and dhatri, nurse, she is also mother. So from that point of view, cow is mother, and you cannot kill on any ground the mother. That is not good reasoning. You are taking the last drop of milk. In South Africa you said?

Pusta Krsna: Yes. They have one slaughterhouse and just beside, I have seen, just beside there is dairy. So at night they bring the cows in to the dairy, milk them to the last drop, and then to the slaughterhouse and all night screaming. I heard because the Indian neighborhood was about five hundred yards from the slaughterhouse. Then in the morning you'd drive by and the carcasses are hanging up.

Prabhupada: So you are drawing the last drop of milk from the cow and sending her to the slaughterhouse. Is that very good civilization?

Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, the beef industry here is based more on... The argument of mother would be a little weak.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Dr. Sharma: The beef industry here is more based on steers, which are not, which are basically bulls given high estrogens and bred in that way.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, we are layman, and we follow Krsna's instruction that cow, milk is very important, we drink the cow's milk, therefore she is mother. So at least she should be saved from being killed. This is common sense. Apart from other big, big reasoning, we take it, Krsna says go-raksya, so we take it. Besides that, so far vegetables are concerned, Krsna says that patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati: "If anyone offers Me even patram," patram puspam phalam toyam,"I eat them." So we take Krsna's prasadam. So Krsna says "You give Me these vegetables, plants." So we offer Him, and then we take. Besides that, everybody has to eat something. So generally, food grains, vegetables, they are recommended for eating purpose. And those who want to eat meat or fish, they can do so, but at least they can avoid the important life of cow. That is recommended. So far we are concerned, we are eating Krsna prasadam, foodstuff offered to Krsna, and this, there is no such thing as meat or fish, or egg, but we are living. Not that because we do not eat meat or fish, we are dying. We can eat very easily. Anna. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Actually, if we take food grains like wheat, rice, pulses, vegetables, fruits, milk, that is quite sufficient, nutritious foodstuff, full with vitamins and, what is called, protein, carbohydrate. That is sufficient. Why should we kill? At least, cow? That is our request, because Krsna says go-raksya. And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Krsna is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Krsna is embracing. So because we want to be Krsna conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction.

Guest (1): Prabhupada? For every animal except the cow, you said, like a..., does a person have to pay off a one-to-one ratio for the animal killed? He just has to come back one time for, like, killing a goat? Is it just one time then, instead of many times?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Pusta Krsna: His question is that is there some formula, that if you kill one animal or one thing then you get killed in the exact same ratio? You kill one thing, you get killed once. So in other words, if you are responsible for killing hundreds and hundreds of animals throughout your lifetime, does one have to take birth hundreds and hundreds of times and be killed?

Prabhupada: Yes. For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

The below is very clear he knew about the horrors, he doesnt want to describe it in bhagvatam due to the horrors, he could of said we should avoid milk from this ghastly practice, but he hasnt anywhere, instead he continued to drink it and allow his disciples to.

 

bhagvatam 1.17.3

The cow's milk is required for the sacrificial fire, and by performing sacrifices the householder can be happy. The cow's calf not only is beautiful to look at, but also gives satisfaction to the cow, and so she delivers as much milk as possible. But in the Kali-yuga, the calves are separated from the cows as early as possible for purposes which may not be mentioned in these pages of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The cow stands with tears in her eyes, the sudra milkman draws milk from the cow artificially, and when there is no milk the cow is sent to be slaughtered. These greatly sinful acts are responsible for all the troubles in present society. People do not know what they are doing in the name of economic development. The influence of Kali will keep them in the darkness of ignorance. Despite all endeavors for peace and prosperity, they must try to see the cows and the bulls happy in all respects. Foolish people do not know how one earns happiness by making the cows and bulls happy, but it is a fact by the law of nature. Let us take it from the authority of Srimad-Bhagavatam and adopt the principles for the total happiness of humanity.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

another converstaion below their are plenty more, prabhupada suggests in other conversations that the farmers should wait for the cows to die naturally.

 

Syamakunda: Prabhupada, yesterday in this book it said that when a cow gets so old, the most economic solution to do with it is not to waste the meat, that it should be slaughtered.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Syamakunda: The karmis, they say that its... When you have this cow that won't give any more milk and its teeth are rotten where its going to die--it can't hardly eat properly--that it's a waste to not use that meat to feed people. It should be slaughtered.

Prabhupada: I have written?

Pusta Krsna: No. He's saying in a karmi book.

Syamakunda: They say that the economically proper thing to do is to kill the cow after it, er, and not waste the meat.

Prabhupada: And who will take? When he'll die, who will take his meat? That is also economical. Why don't you give it to the animal-eaters instead of wasting it? Why they bury in the ground? Why? Let it be thrown eating by the jackals or anybody else.

Syamakunda: The people should eat their..., the people, then, according to that philosophy, right?

Prabhupada: No, when man is dead, why the economic calculation is not taken? Hm?

Devotee (2): Because they think it is animallike.

Prabhupada: Animal or a man, when it is dead, then it is the same value. Is there any difference of value between the animal body and man's body?

Devotee (2): They think it is barbaric.

Prabhupada: "They think," but you think like human being.

Pusta Krsna: But the animal has no soul.

Prabhupada: Soul or not soul, when the body is dead, is there any difference of value?

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

I hope that clears up the argument "maybe srila prabhupada wasnt aware" especially the quote from bhagvatam.

My point is that their is a grey area,(for some its black and white), read, research and come to your own conclusions, im still learning about this topic.

 

[theist]

 

I think srila prabhupada was aware of cows being milked and slaughtered. Read below.

 

I think many arguments have been presented for and against drinking milk, I think everyone agrees the ideal is to have our own communities, its the grey area in between that we have been debating.

 

 

Of course he knew cows were milked and slaughtered. All the details though he wasn't aware of as he admits "we are laymen..."

Vegans and conditional vegans don't live in any grey area at all concerning this.

And frankly I wouldn't say directly supporting the cow slaughter industry is any longer a grey area. After nearly 40 years of Prabhupada having spoken on cow protection it is simply a dark area.

 

[theist]

vijay, I can appreciate the fact that you are willing to seriously consider this issue and investigate what the proper course of action should be.

 

 

bhagvatam 1.17.3

The cow's milk is required for the sacrificial fire, and by performing sacrifices the householder can be happy. The cow's calf not only is beautiful to look at, but also gives satisfaction to the cow, and so she delivers as much milk as possible. But in the Kali-yuga, the calves are separated from the cows as early as possible for purposes which may not be mentioned in these pages of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The cow stands with tears in her eyes, the sudra milkman draws milk from the cow artificially, and when there is no milk the cow is sent to be slaughtered. These greatly sinful acts are responsible for all the troubles in present society. People do not know what they are doing in the name of economic development. The influence of Kali will keep them in the darkness of ignorance. Despite all endeavors for peace and prosperity, they must try to see the cows and the bulls happy in all respects. Foolish people do not know how one earns happiness by making the cows and bulls happy, but it is a fact by the law of nature. Let us take it from the authority of Srimad-Bhagavatam and adopt the principles for the total happiness of humanity.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

It baffles me how someone can read those words above and continue to support the practice. The argument that "Prabhupada said..." used to justify the continuation of this practice that Prabhupada called "greatly sinful" and "responsible for all the troubles of present society" just doesn't hold up.

 

To me it is clear that Prabhupada was instructing the dropping of this kind of mistreatment of the cows in favor of cow protection.

 

Now his students after 40 years use these statements not to promote cow protection but to justify their continued particpation in cow slaughter. Does that make sense to you?

 

Any sort of time alloted for a transitional period has long since passed. For devotees being a conditional vegan seems the only option other than being a supporter of cow slaughter through the use of bloodmilk.

 

Prabhupada instructed that powdered milk from protected cows be produced and sold abroad to India what to speak of supplying temples and their communities.

 

If people are really interested in following Prabhupada's instructions on the matter they would be working on the powdered milk idea as we speak and not just taking a portion of what Prabhupada said or did to justify their continued torture and slaughter of cows. And that while lecturing the "karmis" on cow protection on top of it .

[vijay]

The point of the previous post was to get rid of the argument "srila prabhupada was unaware".

 

Maybe your right, maybe 40 years is way too long, and since the society has gone downwards in the past 30 years and only seems to be stabalising now, it maybe time for conditional vegans, maybe for some that can hack it promoting non-tractor produced goods may also help.

 

 

http://www.krishna.com/newsite/printarticles/Year_Of_Ox.html

"1997--The Year of the Ox

 

By Hare Krishna Devi Dasi

 

According to the East Asian calendar, 1997 was the Year of the Ox.

 

Ox power is fifty percent of cow protection, because bulls are fifty percent of the herd.

 

Our friends the vegans may hope to escape the sin of animal slaughter by avoiding commercial milk products. But eating tractor-produced grains implicates all of us in the slaughter of bulls, because tractors deny bulls their God-given work of tilling the field. Hardly one bull calf can be saved from the slaughterhouse even by a thousand vegans. If there is no use for the bull calf, the farmer must kill him.

 

The real way to save the bull is to engage him in productive work. When you work with a trained ox, you see how he enjoys working. The ox has big muscles, and like an athlete he gets pleasure from using them. The ox likes working as an intimate partner to a human being who shows gratitude for the ox's power and loyalty. And the ox can help us toward a simple life conducive to spiritual advancement."

 

interesting article http://www.salagram.net/vege-Vegan-choice.html

[gHari]

Theist, you give your money to people every day, thereby allowing them to kill cows or at least allowing them to pay someone else, a darker figure to perform the actual murder of the cow. If you did not give them money they would not be able to kill cows.

 

Perhaps it's back to the beadbag and water pot and fruit that falls from the tree if we are to remain aloof and unscathed.

 

I still can't believe you really think it would be better not to be born at all, than to be born into an unpleasant existence.

 

[theist]

 

Theist, you give your money to people every day, thereby allowing them to kill cows or at least allowing them to pay someone else, a darker figure to perform the actual murder of the cow. If you did not give them money they would not be able to kill cows.

 

 

It's true, I dislike shopping at my local Whole Foods and Berkeley Bowl because they maintain meat counters. We complain but they remain. They justify it by selling "free range organic meats". Just a lame attempt to ease their own conscience a bit without giving up the taste.

 

We need a vegan store here in Berkeley. If it was done right it would do well. Foods and clothing as well as educating the public. Maybe Down to Earth from Hawaii will open a store in Berkeley. That would be nice. Instant success with the populace.

 

 

Perhaps it's back to the beadbag and water pot and fruit that falls from the tree if we are to remain aloof and unscathed.

 

 

That won't even work. You step on insects as you gather the fruit. It is impossible to be perfectly harmless in that sense. Even the Jains have long ago recognized these limitations. One can only minimize as best as one can.

 

 

I still can't believe you really think it would be better not to be born at all, than to be born into an unpleasant existence.

 

 

You have been making this argument but it makes no sense. The soul would exist anyway, birth in a tortured cow body or not.

 

I would also suggest that you call someone appropiate names if that is your desire. A hypocrite is someone who preaches one thing while doing another. Like someone who accepts someones vow to refrain from illict sex in exchange for entrance into bhakti-yoga but all the while keeps a lady on the side.

 

Perhaps you would like to call me self-righteous or 'holier than thou' instead.

[theist]

When devotees start more and more adopting conditional veganism I belief there will also be an increase in the awareness and demand for milk from protected cows. As it is I think they are too easy to ignore.

 

As for the bulls we can never expect the bulls to replace the tractor on a large scale basis. This is another reason for veganism or conditional veganism. The amount of male calves that are born to the dairy industry is so large because they keep the cows pregnant every year artifically.

 

Being a conditional vegan would solve that at least personally.

 

I would also buy my veggies from a farm that protected the bulls by engaging them.

 

The truth is there are way too many cows on the planet. As demand decreases so will their numbers.

 

But the problem is not divorced from the meat eating. The dairy and meat industries are linked in purpose like one has a left arm and a right arm.

[vijay]

We have a few leftist and a few right wingers.

 

I still find it starnge after all the instructions that prabhupada gave on milk and cow protection he never once said, milk use is conditional, only if you get it from protected cows can you have it. He said better from protected cows but never only from protected cows or else no milk at all.

 

"If people are really interested in following Prabhupada's instructions on the matter they would be working on the powdered milk idea as we speak and not just taking a portion of what Prabhupada said or did to justify their continued torture and slaughter of cows. And that while lecturing the "karmis" on cow protection on top of it ."

 

No not really dont agree, maybe you can work on the milk powder idea, there are devotees working on cow protection and doing their best single handidly and as a community, you dont want to talk about the issues that iskcon face but you want to set their priorities for them.

 

"Your merit stands far above theirs, you have done some tangible work to please me by spreading this Krishna Consciousness message in New Orleans, that is the test. Let them do something first, then we shall see what is their criticism. Simply criticizing and no work, that is the business of inferior men. So do not be disturbed by them, go on with your work, increasing more and more. Never mind the jackals howl.

Hoping this meets you in good health.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada"

 

"This kind of criticism and counter-criticism is not good. Those who are advanced devotees try to see only the good that other devotees are doing, just as bees are attracted to honey, while flies are attracted to sores."

 

 

Its easy to critise a group of devotees for not doing enough, as i said before since iskcon has gone down in the last 30 years and is in a period of stabalisation i think the instruction below applies most at this time, we are not a florishing society anymore. We need strong devotees and more of them, temples are struggling in europe and america especially to make ends meet you want them to concentrate on powdered milk?

 

You may say "stop drinking milk until cow protection", ive not read a single statement by prabhupada like that, if you want to then you do, if you say "then dont preach cow protection", well prabhupada did, even while not having any cow protection in place.

 

And there are devotees trying to do cow protection unfortunately their is a real lack of quality devotees that are willing to dedicate there lives these days (including myself) so maybe its not as good as you expect but hey if your not a part of the solution your a part of the probelm, you can concentrate on cow protection others see thier priorities in rejevunating the congregation and devotees.

I think prabhupadas below instruction is the most relevant at the moment.

 

I personally at the moment believe from what ive read so far, prabhupada wanted cow protection but drinking commercial milk wasnt dependant on "an allocation of time in which cow protection should be in place" or the success of cow protection. Offering the milk was of a higher cause than refraining therefore never placed such condition. He often quotes the verse from gita, flower, water, fruit and often adds milk.

 

 

"..stand there is some disturbance between you, but that is not to be taken very seriously. Real business is preaching work, and if there is full attention on this matter only, all other businesses will be automatically successful. Fighting amongst ourselves is not at all good, but if our preaching work is neglected, or if we fall down in following the regulative principles such as rising before four, chanting 16 rounds, like that, if these things are not strictly observed then maya will enter and spoil everything. So my best advice to you is to strictly observe these things yourself and be the example so that all others may follow. We should not criticize each other, as Vaisnavas, because there is fault in everyone and we ourselves may be subject to criticism. Best thing is to be above suspicion ourselves, then if we see discrepancies and make suggestion the others will automatically respect and take action to rectify the matters. That is cooperation. And we must exist on such cooperation, otherwise the whole thing is doomed if we simply go on fighting over some small thing. So try to organize things and preach together in this spirit, and that will please me very, very much... work, may Krishna bless you more and more..."

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

I also still doubt how much benifit not drinking milk will have in saving the cows. As below.

 

My friends a dentist devotee, he was telling me how he felt bad that he fixes the teath of those that will go and eat beef and contribute to anilmal slaughter, its like him loading the gun, and then them firing. Same with the dairy milk industry, no?

 

Theist prabhu, thank you for engaging me in this discussion, ive certainly learnt alot in the past few days on this topic and still pondering.

 

 

Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows?

by Syamasundara dasa

Posted March 15, 2003

 

A perspective on whether devotees not using milk from commercial farming would save cows.

There is often the suggestion that members of ISKCON should not be supporting the commercial dairy industry by purchasing its milk and products. The plight of the cows and calves in the dairy industry are mentioned and the proposal suggested is that we should refrain from implication in the abuse by not using the milk.

 

The dairy industry in order to produce milk has to:

 

Impregnate cows yearly to ensure the maximum yield per cow

The calves that are not kept for milk production are killed as soon as the best economic situation allows. Some Channel Island bull calves have not economic viability and are killed practically immediately

After a cow has served its time as a milk producer it is killed and its body enters the human food chain, unless one is in a country with BSE restrictions in which case any animals older than 36 months cannot be eaten. In this case the animal is killed and the body incinerated.

Cows are fed for the purpose of getting maximum yield without any excess body weight gain.

The cows, in some countries are given chemical stimulants to produce more milk

Cows that do not reach the optimum milk yield are killed

Cows that are disease prone are killed as the costs of medical attention in terms of drugs and time will make the cow uneconomic

From the above simple analysis we can note that all the cows involved with the dairy industry enter the human food chain at some point. Very early in the case of bull calves and later in the case of milking or low milking cows. In every case they are killed prematurely. A cow can live over 20 years if cared for naturally. The cows involved with the dairy industry all end with the same fate as those cows that are bred and reared solely for the beef industry. They will all be killed and eaten.

 

Here is my Question. Can it be shown that the drinking of milk is contributing to the number of animals being killed? We are trying to explore the depth of implication in the slaughter industry by the drinking of milk and the eating of milk products.

 

If we stopped drinking milk would that decrease the number of animals going to slaughter?

 

From the above we can see that all the cows are slaughtered and their bodies used in the beef industry. In other words there is a market in place to utilise their bodies. They are part of the beef industry already. If one takes the total herd of bovines’ dairy and beef they are supplying the demand for a certain amount of flesh required by the non-vegetarian population. Some thoughts are that if there was no demand for milk would that total herd number decrease. As all the flesh is already being eaten and satisfying the demands of the market then it would seam that a reduction in milk production wouldn’t decrease the number of animals killed.

 

To develop this point further it would seam that the only way we can reduce the number of animals being killed is for more of the population to become vegetarian and thus the demand for beef to drop.

 

The point of this argument is not to justify the drinking of milk even though cows are being slaughtered but it is to show that a position of demonstration by abstinence from milk is not actually beneficial in stopping the slaughter of cows.

 

We should restate our understood position from many ISKCON writers that we are benefiting the cows by offering the milk to Lord Krishna and that we must drive to establish cow protection where local milk from protected cows is available.

 

Comments on this line of discussion would be very welcome

 

Syamasundara Dasa

Goshalla Manager

Bhaktivedanta Manor, UK

 

 

[theist]

 

I still find it starnge after all the instructions that prabhupada gave on milk and cow protection he never once said, milk use is conditional, only if you get it from protected cows can you have it. He said better from protected cows but never only from protected cows or else no milk at all.

 

 

Did Bhaktisiddhanta every tell Srila Prabhupada that Westerners could only chant 16 rounds? Devotees must be independent and thoughtful. We have to learn to follow our own conscience and listen to that inner leading.

 

That is really all I am asking you to do. The spirit of Srila Prabhupada's instructions were toward cow protection unequivically.

 

 

You know it really isn't about karma or karma free. It is about the suffering of others.

 

Consider it deeply and then do the right thing.

 

 

[theist]

 

The point of this argument is not to justify the drinking of milk even though cows are being slaughtered but it is to show that a position of demonstration by abstinence from milk is not actually beneficial in stopping the slaughter of cows.

 

 

It is about my own personal responsibility in the process. I choose not to participate. I don't need some religious edict or proclamation to tell me it's wrong.

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Talking of cows

 

Bhagavad-gita Introduction

--

New York, February 19, 1966

First Tape Recording, Done by

Srila Prabhupada Himself

 

 

Just… This Gitopanisad is just like a cow, and the Lord is famous as cow boy, and He was milking this cow. Sarvopanisado. And it is the essence of all Upanisads and represented as the cow. And the Lord being expert cow boy, He is milking the cow. And partho vatsah. And Arjuna is just like the calf. And su-dhir bhokta. And learned scholars and pure devotees, they are to take this milk. Su-dhir bhokta dugdham gitamrtam mahat. The nectar, the milk of Bhagavad-gita, is meant for learned devotees.

 

ekam sastram devaki-putra-gitam

eko devo devaki-putra ev

eko mantras tasya namani yani

karmapy ekam tasya devasya seva

 

Now the world should learn from the Bhagavad-gita, the lesson. Evam sastram devaki-putra-gitam. There is one scripture only, one common scripture for the whole world, for the people of the whole world, and that is this Bhagavad-gita.

__________

 

 

So over here Prabhupada is saying Gita is like a cow. Er also this will I AM SURE bring tears to your eyes Thiestji:

 

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 3.87-88

--

New York, December 27, 1966

 

The cow dung is stated as purest. In one place it is stated that "Stool of animal is impure. If anyone touches, he will have to take his bath and then purify himself." But for cow dung it is stated, "If there is any impure place, just smear over it cow dung and it will be all nice." Now, argument is, "How is that, that one place you say that stool of animal is impure, and again one place you say cow dung is pure?" That is not contradiction. That is actually the fact. And modern scientists have analyzed cow dung, and he has found it is full of antiseptic properties. It is God's wish. Now, take for example cow. What cow eating? Grass, dry grass. And what it is producing? It is producing the nicest thing, milk, full of vitamins. Now, if you think, "Oh, then a dry grass and straw contains all vitamins. Let me eat," you will die. You will die. It is God's arrangement. The cow can produce the most vitaminous foodstuff by eating the dry grass. It is God's desire. The cow will eat at least twenty pounds of grass, and how it can eat the grains? It is not possible. So just like elephant-it will eat hundred pounds of thing. He must eat all these branches and twigs. So everything is God's arrangement. We have to accept that. Sattvena sattvikataya prabalais ca sastraih.

 

 

I found this which made me open my eyes:

 

Morning Walk

--

February 3, 1976, Mayapura

 

Prabhupada: Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu went to the Kazi. His first question was that "What kind of religion you are following? You are killing your father and mother?" This was His beginning of the talk. "What kind of religion it is?How is that? I am killing my father, mother?Yes, cow is your mother and bull is your father. You are killing them. The bull is giving you grains by working in the field, and the mother is giving you milk, and you are killing them." This was his first question. So this is a civilization of killing father and mother. All over the world they are killing bulls and cows.

 

-

 

Ok Prabhupada says that Cow and Bull is like mother and father. Now then are you preaching this? Or just telling people to become Rabbits? HARIBOL!

 

 

 

[vijay]

"Did Bhaktisiddhanta every tell Srila Prabhupada that Westerners could only chant 16 rounds? Devotees must be independent and thoughtful."

 

Srila prabhupada was self relized right?

He was around at the time when this cows were being slaughtered therefore im trying to see from his example what is the best course.

 

"We have to learn to follow our own conscience and listen to that inner leading."

 

I agree to a certain extent but that inner voice should be based on higher knowledge and instruction, I will get sentimental over anything, and my concience will say many things therefore if we have enough evidence form srila prabhupada whats the better than the perfect source.

 

"Consider it deeply and then do the right thing"

 

I will consider based on guru. We know srila prabhupada was aware of cow slaughering and the horrors of dairy farming.

He never placed a condition on drinking commercial milk.

 

He had many chances to place a restriction on it but never did, infact he states the opposite a few times. (as the below quote shows)

 

I have already given a few quotes showing how everything is benifited when offered. And the last quote I give you as an example to show we are not concerned about the karma we get, prabhupada says if krishna wants we would offer him eggs and meat, now that shouldnt be taken lightly. We are not vegiterians or vegans etc we are prasad-ians as srila prabhupada says. If its authorised krishna will take the sin and give the benifit.

"The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Krsna. Then how we can eat? That because Krsna eats, Krsna allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Krsna's. This is our philosophy. Yes."

 

The question also remains on actually how will not drinking milk reduces cow slaughter.

 

 

Heres one:

 

"You can drink by offering worship to Candi," it is restricted. Nobody can worship Candi daily. Nobody can worship Kali daily. There is also fixed date... Kali worship can be performed on (indistinct). The (indistinct) comes once a month. So that means restricted. One can eat meat once in a month. But the RESTRICTION is not there for eating rice, dahl, ghee, fruit or milk. There is no such restriction. But whenever there is a question of liquor, meat-eating and sex, immediately there is sastra injunction that "You can do this under certain conditions." That means the whole idea is to restrict. That is, psychology is already there, but sastras (indistinct), because they know if people become implicated with all these nonsense things, then his duration of materialistic way of life will increase, and we will have to accept material bodies birth after birth"

 

"Guest: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded...

Prabhupada: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life.

Guest: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables?

Prabhupada: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad-gita... You find out this verse. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati. Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Krsna in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat? So He said that...

Guru-krpa: "If one offer me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."

Prabhupada: Yes. Patram puspam phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram, a little flower, puspam, a little fruit, and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patram puspam phalam toyam, and after Krsna's eating, we take it. We are servant; we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Krsna. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasad-ian. We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals--no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadani catus-padam. These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Krsna. So whatever Krsna eats, we eat. If Krsna says that "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Krsna meat and eggs and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way.

Guest: Yes.

Prabhupada: So we are not for that way.

Guest: Well, why do you put the stricture on...

Prabhupada: Stricture in this way, no meat-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk?

Guest: So milk is very important.

Prabhupada: Very, very important.

Guest: In terms of production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals.

Prabhupada: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically...

Guest: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains?

Prabhupada: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Krsna, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasadam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all.

Pusta Krsna: You follow?

Guest: Not exactly.

Pusta Krsna: The food that we take is first offered to Krsna in the temple, so Krsna is the first to eat. And Krsna demands that "You offer Me this particular source of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Krsna the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become free from sinful reaction.

Guest: I see.

Prabhupada: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Krsna. This is our.... To become vegetarian.... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal. Or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat-eater, there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege.... The animals.... The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada"

 

"You know it really isn't about karma or karma free. It is about the suffering of others."

 

Yes thats true, so as i see it so far not drinking thier milk will not stop cow slaughter as i dont see the evidence for this. But it may reduce their suffering.

However considering the philosophy give by prabhupada above, these cows will suffer as much as their karma has given them to suffer either in this life or next. They will ultimately suffer less if their milk is offered and used in some service. (you can see this as an excuse and sure some will use it as an excuse but this is the only real solution to thier suffering) The only real help we can give is by offering thier milk, which is athorised by guru and krishna.

 

Maybe a devotte is very elevated and his mood is i can not offer milk to you as it is created by the suffering of your beloved cows which is fine i guess.

 

Another elevated devotees mood may be just as srila prabhupada, that these cows are suffering, but now they've had an oppertunity to do some service to you please give them your blessings, even that rat which accedently got its tail on fire and offered you it by jumping up and down in pain became liberated, then why can not this deliberate offering of milk benifit the cow in such a way.

 

I think both approaches are valid, and dont believe in condemning anyone of them as hypocracy in krishna's eyes.

 

If you are not sure of eithers validity then be careful of condemning anyone of these approaches as hypocracy.

 

If you are sure then you must be either arragont or self realised.

[krsna]

Yes let us consider and properly deliberate on this mattter more deeply or we may end up making offense to the Vaisnavas...

[theist]

Preaching cow protection while supporting modern factory farming just doesn't seem right to me. Anyway....

 

Jaya Govinda

[WyattEarp]

I'm just an old-fashioned milk and potatoes man myself. And, after reading Srila Prabhupada's words, I hope to stay that way.

 

I'm closing down the Long-Branch saloon. Beer vs Milk? No contest.

 

Thanks, Vijay for the convincing quotes.

 

Wyatt

[vijay]

Dangers of manufacturing our own process,

 

"There is no need for men to eat animals, because there is an ample supply of grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. Such simple foodstuff is considered to be in the mode of goodness according to the Bhagavad-gita. Animal food is for those in the mode of ignorance. Therefore, those who indulge in animal food, drinking, smoking and eating food which is not first offered to Krsna will suffer sinful reactions because of eating only polluted things. Bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat. Anyone who eats for sense pleasure, or cooks for himself, not offering his food to Krsna, eats only sin. One who eats sin and eats more than is allotted to him cannot execute perfect yoga. It is best that one eat only the remnants of foodstuff offered to Krsna. A person in Krsna consciousness does not eat anything which is not first offered to Krsna. Therefore, only the Krsna conscious person can attain perfection in yoga practice. Nor can one who artificially abstains from eating, manufacturing his own personal process of fasting, practice yoga. The Krsna conscious person observes fasting as it is recommended in the scriptures. He does not fast or eat more than is required, and he is thus competent to perform yoga practice.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada"

 

Cow protection is very important

 

"So Govinda..., so what is the business of Govinda? Now, go-dvija-surarti-haravatara. Surarti, go. This demonic world is the greatest enemy of cows. Just see how they are maintaining hundreds and thousands of slaughterhouse. Hundreds and thousands of slaughterhouse. Innocent animals, giving you milk, the most important foodstuff. Even after death, it is giving you its skin for your shoes, and you are so rascal that you are killing. And you want to be happy in this world. You see? How sinful they are! They have no consideration that this animal... Why cow protection is so much advocated? Because it is very, very important. Therefore... There is no such injunction that "You don't eat the flesh of the tiger." You can eat. Because those who are meat eaters, those who are meat eaters, they have been recommended to eat the flesh of goats or other lower animals--sometimes dogs also, they eat, or the hogs--you can eat. But never the flesh of cows. So, innocent animal, the most important animal, giving service even after death... While living, giving service, so important service, giving you milk, even after death she is giving service by supplying the skin, the hoof, the horn. You utilize in so many ways. But still, the present human society is so ungrateful and rascal that they are killing cows. So Krsna comes to punish them,

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada"

 

Here prabhupada talks about our debt to the cows, who supply milk and are killed, the only solution is become krishna concious, you can not pay all these debts off to everyone.

 

"you not indebted? Do you think, or not, that we are indebted to the sun?

Devotee (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: Are you agreeing or not?

Devotee (1): Well, I guess I think.

Prabhupada: Yes, you must. If you cannot pay your electric bill one month, your electricity will be immediately cut off. And you are getting so much light from the sun, and you do not pay the bill. Then you are becoming indebted, indebted, indebted. You see? (laughter) You have to pay it. If you don't pay, then you'll be punished. So we do not know that. Devarsi-bhutapta. We are taking so much milk from the cows, and we are killing instead of giving them protection. So in this way, we are simply committing sinful life. How you can expect to become happy? So the only means is to take to Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyah. Because you are habituated to commit sinful life only, so if you want to be saved, then you take to Krsna consciousness. Otherwise, you have to be punished, in this life or next life. And you do not know what is your next life because you are all ignorant. But there is next life. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati. But if you are most sinful, then you are going to become abominable living creatures. Adho gacchanti tamasah. You go down. And if you become pious, then you are promoted. But our program is not to become pious, not to become sinful: to become Krsna conscious. That will save us.

 

HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada"

 

I personally dont see a contridiction between cow protection and commercial milk. I see 2 principles at work.

 

The spirtual principle is to offer the milk which is benificial to the cow whether protected or not protected.

 

The moral pricnciple, is to protect the body of the cows which is also condusive for spirtual life (simple living and protecting the mother) thus cow protection.

 

The spirtual priciple is always higher, however we should also aspire for the moral principle to facilitate the spirtual. When in contention the spirtual principle takes precidence.

 

Anyway we should all be aware of prabhupadas wish for cow protection, there are so many quotes where he is advocating "very very" much cow protection.

 

This discussion has made me much more aware when i offer any milk products, i have minimised it in the past few days to avoid just eating for my sense grat. And my offerings are a little more focused.

 

Thanks,

 

Haribol.

[krsna]

You've summed it all up nicely in the following statements,Prabhu :

 

 

*********************************

 

I personally dont see a contridiction between cow protection and commercial milk. I see 2 principles at work.

 

The spirtual principle is to offer the milk which is benificial to the cow whether protected or not protected.

 

The moral pricnciple, is to protect the body of the cows which is also condusive for spirtual life (simple living and protecting the mother) thus cow protection.

 

The spirtual priciple is always higher, however we should also aspire for the moral principle to facilitate the spirtual. When in contention the spirtual principle takes precidence.

 

Anyway we should all be aware of prabhupadas wish for cow protection, there are so many quotes where he is advocating "very very" much cow protection.

 

This discussion has made me much more aware when i offer any milk products, i have minimised it in the past few days to avoid just eating for my sense grat. And my offerings are a little more focused.

 

***************************************

 

This is what we're after, the fine tuning of our counsciouness which is what we are really offering to Sri Krsna. The bottom line : Is it pleasing to Krsna or His beloved devotee and servitor Srila Prabhupada to offer 'bloodmilk' to Him ?