What is actual advancement?

[jayaisvara]

I'd like to ask the Vaisnavas here in this forum this question, what exactly is advancement?

 

For example, if one receives some knowledge by revelation, is that advancement? Or does advancement occur when one feels compassion and such positive emotions towards other living entities who are unaware of KC?

 

Thank you for any answers,

Hare Krsna

[theist]

I suppose it can be answered correctly from many different angles.

 

Arjuna advanced to the point of accepting Krsna as guru. Krsna said because Arjuna was His devotee as well as His friend He would reveal the truth to him. So certainly revelation.

 

Compassion is a devotees quality. So considering most of us have been living selfishly noy considering the welfare of others for so long to gain some compassion would be a sign of advancement.

[jayaisvara]

Thanks for answering theistji. You are right by saying that Krsna reveals only to His devotee the knowledge. But, can't He also take away the knowledge?

 

In terms of compassion, as you have said, compassion is a devotees quality, but can Krsna also take away the quality of compassion from His devotee if His devotee still has some demoniac mentality?

 

Also, when one sees truth by revelation, what does one do after that? I mean, assume for instance that you can see God in everything, moving and nonmoving. Then it sort of becomes that everywhere you go, you see God. How do you relate to such a circumstance?

[shambu]

Many definitions may be possible, as Theist writes. What came to my mind is "to face one's own deficiencies," as dry as it may sound. One should face one's own deficiencies first, and perhaps accept them for awhile, before being able to conquer them. I guess "deficiency" here is not the exact equivalent of anartha, more somekind of inability. I am sure you can think of some you have, since no one is perfect. Personally I am struggling with the demands for "perfection," a word often used by Srila Prabhupada, as they are too high for me. So I have to face my imperfection and deficiency without necessarily being "defeated."

 

An other thing that comes to mind is that the higher one rises, the lower one feels. As in the case of the uttama-adhikari devotee, who sees that everyone is serving Krsna nicely, while he is in such a lowly and fallen state. He is actually uttama, the highest, most advanced, but is feeling himself patita, the most low. Not meaning that whenever we feel "low" we are actually "high" I guess, since this would be a questionable standard because it occurs often in ordinary circumstances. Only within the divine context is this applicable and to be understood.

 

Knowledge by revelation (perhaps translated as vijnana, realized knowledge) sure makes for advancement, where compassion would be estimated as the most advanced symptom of a devotee, since it embodies complete selflesness and as such practically equals love of god. As the Old Bible said: Love God with all thy might, strength, and intelligence, and secondly and equally so, love thy neighbour as yourself, or something likewise... You can't love One without the Other! So compassion is certainly very high, and most rare to find, at least on a spiritual level.

[theist]

 

You are right by saying that Krsna reveals only to His devotee the knowledge. But, can't He also take away the knowledge?

 

 

 

Sure He can do whatever. For example someone may start to think he has acquired so much knowledge and he that its separate from Krsna so he starts to use it to exploit others in various ways while feeding his faslse sense of self. Krsna may be meciful to such a person and take away all that kmowledge in an effort to humble the devotee. We know He does this with money and He can also do it with knowledge.

 

 

In terms of compassion, as you have said, compassion is a devotees quality, but can Krsna also take away the quality of compassion from His devotee if His devotee still has some demoniac mentality?

 

 

 

Sure, if the devotee short of perfection decides to turn away from the Lord he will also be turnng away from those devotional qualities of which compassion is one.

 

I like what Shambu had to say about compassion. I often use the word quite lightly as in soft heartedness towards someone such as the poor or some animal. But as Shambu has reminded us real compassion is on the absolute plane and comes from loving Krsna. Why would he ever take that away?

 

 

Also, when one sees truth by revelation, what does one do after that? I mean, assume for instance that you can see God in everything, moving and nonmoving. Then it sort of becomes that everywhere you go, you see God. How do you relate to such a circumstance? {/quote]

 

When we achieve genuine revelation what to do next will be very clear. Seeing God is not a static stagnant condition. Like just seeing some formless energy buzzing in everything at a constant unvarying rate. He is dynamic. How you relate to Him is up to you. Awe and wonder inspired, as a friend etc. Remember we are personalists. God will be relating back.

 

He is entrancing beauty so we will act as one entranced. Actually we already know, it is just a matter of remebering. There is nothing more natural then relating to God.

 

[theist]

 

What came to my mind is "to face one's own deficiencies," as dry as it may sound. One should face one's own deficiencies first, and perhaps accept them for awhile, before being able to conquer them. I guess "deficiency" here is not the exact equivalent of anartha, more somekind of inability.

 

 

I relate to this like the proverbial bubble bursting. We sometimes have these mental images of what kind of devotee we are,usually quite inflated. When a particular bubble bursts and we can see some truth about our present condition and not run from it but plead to Krsna to help us past it then I take that as some tangible advancement. It may not feel like it at the time but from our positions advancement does not always mean an immediate pleasurable experience.

[jayaisvara]

Thanks for answering prabhus,

 

 

Not meaning that whenever we feel "low" we are actually "high" I guess

 

 

 

This is the one I struggle with sometimes. What can you do in such situations?

 

 

What came to my mind is "to face one's own deficiencies," as dry as it may sound. One should face one's own deficiencies first, and perhaps accept them for awhile, before being able to conquer them

 

 

 

Do we conquer them or by divine grace it happens?

 

 

So compassion is certainly very high, and most rare to find, at least on a spiritual level

 

 

 

If we feel something towards others in certain situations, could it be called genuine compassion? Because so far in my spiritual life, I think I might've blocked out genuine feelings, or I might've not. Isn't compassion also given to us by Krsna? How should we act in some situations where sometimes we need to express feelings eventhough illusory?

 

 

For example someone may start to think he has acquired so much knowledge and he that its separate from Krsna so he starts to use it to exploit others in various ways while feeding his faslse sense of self. Krsna may be meciful to such a person and take away all that kmowledge in an effort to humble the devotee.

 

 

 

Will Krsna always take away the knowledge as to be merciful or will He sometimes let us keep it or not be merciful?

 

 

Sure, if the devotee short of perfection decides to turn away from the Lord he will also be turnng away from those devotional qualities of which compassion is one.

 

 

 

In the course of this journey, there is bound to be so many temptations. Sometimes this can cause us to turn away from this spiritual journey. Will Krsna come to help us again turb back to Him?

 

 

It may not feel like it at the time but from our positions advancement does not always mean an immediate pleasurable experience

 

 

 

Is it true that actual spiritual life is at first most painful and horrible, and thus we are not supposed to be feeling nice and happy in the beginning? Or maybe that happiness is not genuine?

 

 

 

 

 

[vijay]

Such a nice discussion.

[krsna]

Quote from gHari:

 

 

Whatever Gets in the Way of Krsna, Must be Destroyed

07/23/04

 

If the 'cult' gets in your way, then Krsna will destroy that hold on you, whether that means destroying the organization or destroying your position in the organization. <font color="red"> Krsna will not let you continue to cheat yourself forever. </font color> /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[jayaisvara]

krsna, I was about to make a new thread regarding one of the lectures of Swami Prabhupada, and you just made a nice head start to the discussion.

 

The following quote is from a lecture by Swami Prabhupada:

 

 

If you want to forget Krsna, so Krsna will give you such intelligence that you will forget Him forever. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham.

 

Bg 01-15 - London 1973-07-15 - Spiritual Communism--Everything Belongs to God

 

 

 

krsna, you have said that :

 

Krsna will not let you continue to cheat yourself forever.

 

 

 

Swami Prabhupada has said that if you want to forget Krsna forever, He will give you such intelligence. I am a little scared at this because what if out of ignorance(like I did 5 years ago), decide to forget Krsna forever? Will I forever forget Him? Even after hearing about Him and chanting Hare Krsna?

 

 

[shambu]

In reply to:

 

"Do we conquer them or by divine grace it happens?"

 

Both, of course. "As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly." [bg. 4.11] Nothing for nothing, there is always the exchange between jiva and Isvara. At least, that is the bhakti concept: mystic yogis or jnanis may think otherwise. Or as the Christian proverb goes: "God helps those who help themselves." The fact is, however, that God is always helping, and that help is causeless. The problem seems to be that we are either too numb or covered to be aware of His helping gestures, or simply refuse to be helped according to His plan. We chalk out our own schemes, being led by false ego and polluted intelligence, and thus proceed towards our doom. The bhakta-program means to act acording to the bhakta-leader's directions. The bhakta-leader is Krsna. Or His representative, the Guru. Or the representative of the Guru, the devotee. And for the advanced soul EVERYTHING is representative of Krsna, as he sees nothing seperate from the Lord.

 

In reply to:

 

"Is it true that actual spiritual life is at first most painful and horrible, and thus we are not supposed to be feeling nice and happy in the beginning? Or maybe that happiness is not genuine?"

 

No, kind of a cruel picture here of bhakti-yoga! How would anyone come to Krsna-consciousness when the initial stages would be so tough already? Actually, I think the opposite is true. In the initial stages He showers His mercy abundantly and causelessly tends to remove all different obstacles, just in order to enthuse His newly won devotee and attach him to the service of His feet. Only in the later stages, real troubles may pop up like wildfire, and the hard work starts... Maybe a crude example, but it can be compared to purchasing some software on the internet for your computer. You can use it for a while for free, as shareware, but in order to keep using it, sooner or later you have to pay the price. But once you have payed the price, the downloaded program runs like anything and you have the disposal of even extra facilities like free updates and everything. Something like that.

 

You may be right where you say that the happiness experienced in the beginning of spiritual life is not genuine. One may just be overwhelmed by different external features like good-tasting prasadam, lovely incense, nice clothes, whatever. Krsna may even trick His devotee with some specific maya to attract him, such as offering him an honourable position. Besides being all-powerful and majestic, He is also a very cunning personality. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

BTW: In Bg Krsna Himself uses the words su-sukham kartum, "very happily performed" to describe the process of spiritual life. Prabhupada confirms this by stating that "the process of devotional service is a very happy one," and that it is "simply joyful." One devotee once said, when asked why devotees weren't happy, that "there must be something wrong then." I guess he's right /images/graemlins/smile.gif There always seems to be something wrong. At least most of the time...

[krsna]

The quote was from gHari.

 

__________________

 

Now will your forgetfulness of Krsna be 'forever'?

 

Nothing is 'forever' in this material world. At some point now or in a zillion yuga cycles the jiva soul will eventually come back to Krsna whence it began it's sojurn 'from time immemorial'.

[krsna]

k

 

Become child-like and ye shall enter the kingdom of God. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[shambu]

U want me to be born again, he?

[jayaisvara]

Thank you for the replies Prabhus. That is a very innocent child /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

If I may ask one more question, if we chant the mahamantra, are we forever 'hooked' with KC?

 

[theist]

Forever hooked? If you want to be.

 

The intelligence will tell us to chnat and keep on chanting throughout this life. It is the ONLY intelligent response to our present condition.

 

When genuine taste for the name is acquired and further when we love Krsna we are forever hooked up. Nitya siddha. But the free will to turn away is always there.

[jayaisvara]

What if we have so many anarthas and imperfections? Still we keep chanting?

 

Also, you have said that we have the free will to turn away. Once a soul attains Vaikuntha planets, is it even possible for one to use the free will to make such a bad decision as to turn away again from the Lord?

[theist]

Well what is your alternative? Your intelligence guided by Supersoul will tell you there is no alternative that makes sense. Can you name even one alternative that makes sense?

 

Allow yourself to be so captured by purified intelligence and proceed to try and gain some actual spiritual taste for the maha-mantra.

 

I am not even suggesting you do it for anyone but yourself. You know what bugs me? When I meet someone who appears to have a real taste for chanting Hare Krsna. He doesn't have to force himself in fact I don't think he could stop himself. What pleasure is he relishing? I get envious, even p___d off.

 

For me its a chore sometimes or I "chant" unconsciously and here this guy seems to be engaged so effortlessly and joyfully within himself.

 

We should want what he has, taste for the name. Your anarthas will be cleared. Good to be aware and try to avoid them but don't become obsessive.

 

Obsess on this. That guy is tasting spiritual pleasure and I am not. I want some ananda too. Let the Buddhists worry about becoming desireless. We want to intensify our desire in Krsna consciousness.

 

Lord Caitanya prayed that the name will give us that nectar for which we are always anxious.

 

So we want that nectar so we need to beg it from the name. This is our immediate mission.

 

Once we get that we will feel satsfied and our attention will become more truly fixed on loving Krsna no matter what. We won't want to turn away from the Lord.

 

At least get liberated before you start worrying about falling again.

[jayaisvara]

Thats clear now, thanks Prabhu.

[Guest guest]

Arjuna was compassionate about not wishing to kill his relations. He wished instead to retreat from the battle and spend his life in quiet contemplation seeking the path of jnana yoga.

Krsna taught him out of such compassion and Arjuna went to hell. Why trust a person who fights on your side but orders their men to fight on the other side?

 

what is red?

[jayaisvara]

Everything in vedic literature is transcendental. Its not easy to understand Krsna or His actions. But, there is always a good reason why He did so.

[theist]

I am not qualified to speak to the subject of your question. It is a good question and you deserve a proper answer. Someone may answer in this thread or I would suggest submitting it to the letters to the editor board at the bottom of the topics board. Jahnava Nitai das will give a good answer for sure.

 

I was just thinking about this yesterday. Between Duryodana picking Krsna's energy(army) and Arjuna wanting the person Krsna, the similarity was this is also the choice the jiva has in it's existence. Do we want Krsna's energy without Him like Duryodana or will we be like Arjuna and be satisfied with the person Krsna?

 

 

What is red? ?????? Lots of things.

 

What is black and white and read all over?

just kidding.