Question - gopis embodied?

[vijay]

I was wondering if anyonme can help,

 

Yesterday I was reading Krishna book, and it said that the gopis have paramatma so they are never seperated from krishna.

 

That raised the question that do the gopis have material bodies that are spirtualised by thier activities, just like gurus bodies. All beings in the spirtual world do not have paramatma that just happens in the material world, so the gopis did not have direct spirtual bodies?

 

Grateful for any insight!

 

[theist]

Another important point is that none of the gopés who danced with Krsna were in their material bodies. They danced with Krsna in their spiritual bodies. All their husbands thought that their wives were sleeping by their sides. The so-called husbands of the gopés were already enamored with the influence of the external energy of Krsna; so by dint of this very energy they could not understand that their wives had gone to dance with Krsna. What then is the basis of accusing Krsna of dancing with others’ wives? The bodies of the gopés, which were their husbands’, were lying in bed, but the spiritual parts and parcels of Krsna were dancing with Him. Krsna is the supreme person, the whole spirit, and He danced with the spiritual bodies of the gopés. There is therefore no reason to accuse Krsna in any way.

 

That was from KB33

[vijay]

Thats interesting, so the husbands had the material body and the spitual parts danced with krishna, doesnt that then mean that generally the gopis had a material body which they sometimes left?

 

"The bodies of the gopés, which were their husbands’, were lying in bed, but the spiritual parts and parcels of Krsna were dancing with Him. "

[theist]

it does say that.

[theist]

This whole line of understanding may lead to some interesting places. For instance, the next question might be about the nature of the forest wherein the rasa dance was held. Was that forest setting even visible to the eyes of this world? Was any of Krsna-lila?

 

Don't know, just asking.

[vijay]

This seems to explain it that some are materially embodied coming to the platform of pure love after being conditioned.

 

I cant believe I read straight past the answers. I only read this two days ago but didnt click.

 

chapter 29 krsna book

 

The gopi associates of Krsna, who assembled in the place where Krsna is appearing, are from different groups. Most of the gopis are eternal companions of Krsna. As stated in the Brahma-samhita, ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih: in the spiritual world the associates of Krsna, especially the gopis, are the manifestation of the pleasure potency of Lord Krsna. They are expansions of Srimati Radharani. But when Krsna exhibits His transcendental pastimes within the material world in some of the universes, not only the eternal associates of Krsna come, but also those who are being promoted to that status from this material world. The gopis who joined Krsna's pastimes within this material world were coming from the status of ordinary human beings. If they had been bound by fruitive action, they were fully freed from the reaction of karma by constant meditation on Krsna. Their severe painful yearnings caused by their not being able to see Krsna freed them from all sinful reactions, and their ecstasy of transcendental love for Krsna in His absence was transcendental to all their reactions of material pious activities. The conditioned soul is subjected to birth and death, either by pious or sinful activities, but the gopis who began to meditate on Krsna transcended both positions and became purified and thus elevated to the status of the gopis already expanded by His pleasure potency. All the gopis who concentrated their minds on Krsna in the spirit of paramour love became fully uncontaminated from all the fruitive reactions of material nature, and some of them immediately gave up their material bodies developed under the three modes of material nature.

 

Maharaja Pariksit heard Sukadeva Gosvami explain the situation of the gopis who assembled with Krsna in the rasa dance. When he heard that some of the gopis, simply by concentrating on Krsna as their paramour, became freed from all contamination of material birth and death, he said, "The gopis did not know that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They accepted Him as a beautiful boy and considered Him to be their paramour. So how was it possible for them to get freed from the material condition just by thinking of a paramour?"

 

[theist]

 

I cant believe I read straight past the answers. I only read this two days ago but didnt click.

 

 

I can believe it. That seems to be the way with Prabhupada's books. I accept them as revelatory in nature. We see what we are allowed to see and are ready to see at any particular time. Of course that is true of everything in a way. We should be able to see Radha Krsna in a stone but very few do. Some will see just molecules. Some will see it all as Brahman. Some rare soul will see those qualities and Radha Krsna also beyond all else.

 

That is why I always remain skeptical when someone indicates they have completed Srila Prabhupada's works and now must move on to more elevated works. It seems to me they be only tasting the outside of the honey jar. That is not to say the same honey is not present elsewhere just that I don't accept one reads along at at some point surpasses what is there.

 

Krsna is ever fresh and when reading Krsna Book we should be literally entering into those pastimes and experiencing something new.

 

I have a question. The gopis that came with Krsna did they all take ordinary material births? I mean since we know some gopis left their phyical bodies behind sleeping next to their husbands as they went to meet Krsna.

[vijay]

You raised a good point.

 

In a class i heard recently by a devotee, he said that 2 people heard the gita(technically 3) when it was spoken by krishna, namely arjuna and dhitrashtra, for arjuna it changed his conciousness, but for ditrastra it hardly did anything. Just the same as when we sit in class 2 people will hear the same thing but it will change one persons life, but the other will come out at best thinking it was a nice class but no further than that.

 

I guess we get out what we want.

 

"When he heard that some of the gopis, simply by concentrating on Krsna as their paramour, became freed from all contamination of material birth and death, he said,... "

 

This applies to the gopis who had a material birth, but those that are already liberated i guess would not have a "material birth".

 

[theist]

I never thought of that before but the example of Dhritarastra and Arjuna is so obvious and perfect.

[Kulapavana]

I often think that the real reason for King Dhritarastra to hear the Gita from Sanjaya was so that others, like us, could hear it too.

[theist]

That too certainly.

 

Will we hear as Arjuna heard or as in some other fashion?

[Guest guest]

Maybe.

[SubashRao]

<font color="blue">PAMHO</font color>

 

yes...the example is very good...

 

to my understandings, Dhritarastra didn't get any benefit out of the upadesham because he is not fully surrendered to the lotus feet of the lord...while Arjuna surrendered...and it made the difference...

 

Dhritarastra was blinded by maya...and so was Arjuna(family attachement), but somehow he surrendered and realised the truth...

 

so I really believe one has to surrender whole heartedly first to get realization...be as humble as can be...

if not you cannot know god even if he stands in front of you and speaks the Gita himself...

but some people may argue, they may argue "how can I surrender without knowing the truth?"...reasonable question!

 

 

hope devotees could shed some light...

[theist]

Arjuna had questions and doubts. The difference is he submitted them to Krsna and received the answers as enlightenment. He questioned the correct source in order to know and not just to continue an arguement.

 

No one can be expected to surrender out of sentiment alone.

[SubashRao]

 

thanx theist ji...

i always appreciate ur replies...

 

[vijay]

Also I think the problem was that dritrashtra didnt want to know, where as arjuna did. Dhitrastra had hope that he can enjoy later, arjuna didnt.

 

Eventually I think after the war while dhitrastra was staying in yudishtirs palace, vidhura came, and in a very harsh way, indirectly calling dhitrastra the family dog living of the charity of those that defeated him and killed his sons, blind as well as deaf, shameless, and other such harsh words, made him realise that he has no hope of happiness, vidhura showed him that his ambitions now can never be fulfiled, after hearing this dhitratra went in to the forest immediately, and through yoga left the material world, turning his body in to ashes.

 

So as long as we have hope that we can enjoy here seperately we can never take in knowledge whole heartedly.

 

In another example, we usually say that we shouldnt pour fuel in to the fire as it will only become stronger, so generally our process is to reduce the fuel over time, thus reducing our hope for happiness in this world.

Once narada muni said to a king (i forgot the name) try and enjoy fully as this king was enjoying in a regulated way and felt no lack in his life (maybe the problem with complacency in mode of goodness). So the enjoying in full force lead to fustration and thus the king had the oppertunity to listen deeply at that time (the one in distress) it can be likened to a pendulum where on one side is fustration and the other enjoyment we are always going back and forth. The best time to understand deeply spirtual topics is when one is near fustrated with material life. Also if you pour enough fuel on to the fire then it seems to go out for a while however it comes back full force later (hence not recomended).

 

Just a thought

 

 

[Guest guest]

Quote:

I have a question. The gopis that came with Krsna did they all take ordinary material births? I mean since we know some gopis left their phyical bodies behind sleeping next to their husbands as they went to meet Krsna.

=====================

 

Paramatma means "Visnu".

 

But the Gopis are absorbed in thoughts of Gopijanaballabha Krishna, who as Madan Mohan is sometimes visible, sometimes invisible. As in Kamagayatri 'kadevaya vidmahe ... gopijanaballabhaya svaha'

 

The Gopis don't worship Visnu, in fact they pray to Visnu to allow them to find Krishna. They are far beyond the realm of Paramatma realization, attained through the steps Brahman, Paramatma, Bhagavan. And many of the key Gopis such as Lilita Devi are nitya-siddha. They have never had material bodies of any type.