old speculations found to be false... what a surprise!

[Kulapavana]

Source: University of California, San Diego

 

January 10, 2005

 

Discovery By UCSD Astronomers Poses A Cosmic Puzzle:

Can A 'Distant' Quasar Lie Within A Nearby Galaxy?

 

By Kim McDonald

 

An international team of astronomers has discovered within the heart of a nearby spiral galaxy a quasar whose light spectrum indicates that it is billions of light years away. The finding poses a cosmic puzzle: How could a galaxy 300 million light years away contain a stellar object several billion light years away?

 

The team’s findings, which were presented today in San Diego at the January meeting of the American Astronomical Society and which will appear in the February 10 issue of the Astrophysical Journal, raise a fundamental problem for astronomers who had long assumed that the “high redshifts” in the light spectra of quasars meant these objects were among the fastest receding objects in the universe and, therefore, billions of light years away.

 

“Most people have wanted to argue that quasars are right at the edge of the universe,” said Geoffrey Burbidge, a professor of physics and astronomer at the University of California at San Diego’s Center for Astrophysics and Space Sciences and a member of the team. “But too many of them are being found closely associated with nearby, active galaxies for this to be accidental. If this quasar is physically associated with this galaxy, it must be close by.”

 

Astronomers generally estimate the distances to stellar objects by the speed with which they are receding from the earth. That recession velocity is calculated by measuring the amount the star’s light spectra is shifted to the lower frequency, or red end, of the light spectrum. This physical phenomenon, known as the Doppler Effect, can be experienced by someone standing near train tracks when the whistle or engine sounds from a moving train becomes lower in pitch, or sound frequency, as the train travels past.

 

 

Photo of nearby spiral galaxy NCG 7319

with high red-shift quasar at arrow (below)

Credit: NASA/Hubble Space Telescope

 

 

 

Astronomers have used redshifts and the known brightness of stars as fundamental yardsticks to measure the distances to stars and galaxies. However, Burbidge said they have been unable to account for the growing number of quasi-stellar objects, or quasars—intense concentrations of energy believed to be produced by the swirling gas and dust surrounding massive black holes—with high redshifts that have been closely associated with nearby galaxies.

 

“If it weren’t for this redshift dilemma, astronomers would have thought quasars originated from these galaxies or were fired out from them like bullets or cannon balls,” he added.

 

The discovery reported by the team of astronomers, which includes his spouse, E. Margaret Burbidge, another noted astronomer and professor of physics at UCSD, is especially significant because it is the most extreme example of a quasar with a very large redshift in a nearby galaxy.

 

“No one has found a quasar with such a high redshift, with a redshift of 2.11, so close to the center of an active galaxy,” said Geoffrey Burbidge.

 

Margaret Burbidge, who reported the team’s finding at the meeting, said the quasar was first detected by the ROSAT X-ray satellite operated by the Max-Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Garching, Germany and found to be closely associated with the nucleus of the spiral galaxy NGC 7319. That galaxy is unusual because it lies in a group of interacting galaxies called Stephan’s Quintet.

 

Using a three-meter telescope operated by the University of California at Lick Observatory in the mountains above San Jose and the university’s 10-meter Keck I telescope on Mauna Kea in Hawaii, she and her team measured the redshifts of the spiral galaxy and quasar and found that the quasar appears to be interacting with the interstellar gas within the galaxy.

 

Because quasars and black holes are generally found within the most energetic parts of galaxies, their centers, the astronomers are further persuaded that this particular quasar resides within this spiral galaxy. Geoffrey Burbidge added that the fact that the quasar is so close to the center of this galaxy, only 8 arc seconds from the nucleus, and does not appear to be shrouded in any way by interstellar gas make it highly unlikely that the quasar lies far behind the galaxy, its light shining through the galaxy near its center by “an accident of projection.”

 

“If this quasar is close by, its redshift cannot be due to the expansion of the universe,” he adds. “If this is the case, this discovery casts doubt on the whole idea that quasars are very far away and can be used to do cosmology.”

 

Other members of the team, besides Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge, included Vesa Junkkarinen, a research physicist at UCSD; Pasquale Galianni of the University of Lecce in Italy; and Halton Arp and Stefano Zibetti of the Max-Planck Institute for Astrophysics in Garching, Germany.

 

 

[theist]

Looking through those incredibly powerful telescopes and then trying to figure out the universe reminds me someone dropping acid and the looking through one of those little kaleiscope things with all the changing colors and patterns and then trying to map it all out.

 

More fun if they stop trying to figure everything out and just allow themselves to be amazed at it all.

 

"Whoa...like far out man...like the universal form and everything...soooo cool....and this is just a spark of His splendor.."

 

Just bow down Mr. Scientist, just bow down.

[Guest guest]

Theist, who says you have to do one or the other?

 

Science progresses by criticism. Every time a theory is shaken or disproven, scientific knowlege expands.

[Kulapavana]

"Science progresses by criticism. Every time a theory is shaken or disproven, scientific knowlege expands."

 

yes, but we will all die before the science gets it "right" when it comes to the real important questions. so we might as well just stick with the Vedic knowledge. besides my own professional field (I work as an analytical chemist) my interest in science is purely for the sake of preaching to the intelligent people.

[theist]

What is the goal of science? Do they wish to reach a final conclusion of some kind. If so Krsna is the conclusive truth amongst all mannersm of logicians. The most they can get out of science is to appreciate something of Krishna. If they do that fine.

 

I myself every since I was a little boy have wanted my own private observatory where I could gaze deep into the heavens. I probably picked it up from reading Superman comics and about his fortress of solitude. I sympatheize with their questioning minds. What's more these top physicists brain power to brain power seem like an alien species to me. I cannot understand any other their theories. I heard Michio Kaku the other night again on Art Bell. Amazingly intelligent man.

 

But the field they are trying to understand will be forever beyond their comprehension. They will find out something which will lead them deeper and deeper into maya's web. I questioned answered leads to three more being proposed. Unless they add Krsna, If they are seeing Krsna what is the difference if you see Him in a flower or microscope.

 

And now pops up string theory. At least 11 more dimensions to learn all the laws of and possibly an umlimited number more.

 

They need to focus on the difference between the self and the body. So incredibly intelligent but they still haven't a clue as to who they are.

 

Maya has them hypnotized and transfixed in that sphere. Like a kalidesope. They are not alone she has us too in this 3d phantasmagoria. But they are in a leadership position and are cheating others with their bluffs of knowing. Therefore most of them are dangerous demons who are obscuring Krsna instead of revealing Him. This is their fault.

[krsna]

If you are advanced in Krsna consciousness, you must be free from all doubts. You must know perfectly well what is Krsna. That is possible by devotional service. Why not by knowledge? By so-called knowledge you cannot understand Krsna. Therefore the so-called scientists are in doubt. If you think “I shall speculate. Through knowledge, I shall understand God,” that is not possible. Because God is unlimited; your knowledge is limited. How you can know God? How the bhaktas can know? They are not scientists, not educated very much.That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita: Those who are engaged in devotional service with love and faith can understand Him. Because God is within you, you don't have to search out where He is. Anyone who is engaged in hearing about Krsna, not those who are sleeping. Those who are actually hearing, and engaged in devotional service. “I give intelligence.” If he’s sincere, if he’s actually a devotee, Krsna will help him.

 

(Class by Srila Prabhupada 8/25/72)

[Guest guest]

>What is the goal of science? Do they wish to reach a final conclusion of some kind. If so Krsna is the conclusive truth amongst all mannersm of logicians. The most they can get out of science is to appreciate something of Krishna. If they do that fine.

 

There's no goal of science - only individuals have goals, and scientists goals vary as much as any other people. Some are purely in it for money, others for love of science, others because they want to help others through contributing to knowlege...just like everyone else. I don't think anyone is looking for a single, final "answer to everything" in science. Science will just go on, finding more and more little answers, and piecing them together.

 

>I myself every since I was a little boy have wanted my own private observatory where I could gaze deep into the heavens. I probably picked it up from reading Superman comics and about his fortress of solitude. I sympatheize with their questioning minds. What's more these top physicists brain power to brain power seem like an alien species to me. I cannot understand any other their theories. I heard Michio Kaku the other night again on Art Bell. Amazingly intelligent man.

 

Science isn't really that "hard". There are some good writers who can explain scientific ideas really well. Carl Sagan and Stephen J Gould are very well known.

 

>But the field they are trying to understand will be forever beyond their comprehension. They will find out something which will lead them deeper and deeper into maya's web. I questioned answered leads to three more being proposed. Unless they add Krsna, If they are seeing Krsna what is the difference if you see Him in a flower or microscope.

 

There may always be unanswered questions, but the important thing is that the number of answers we do have are always increasing. As for seeing God in a flower or a microscope, I agree. But a flower won't help you to work out what causes bacterial diseases and how to treat them.

 

>They need to focus on the difference between the self and the body. So incredibly intelligent but they still haven't a clue as to who they are.

 

That's exactly what certain neuroscientists, psychologists and philosophers are working on right now. Daniel Dennet is probably the most well known. Conciousness research, and psychology in general, in making great progress.

 

>Maya has them hypnotized and transfixed in that sphere. Like a kalidesope. They are not alone she has us too in this 3d phantasmagoria. But they are in a leadership position and are cheating others with their bluffs of knowing. Therefore most of them are dangerous demons who are obscuring Krsna instead of revealing Him. This is their fault.

 

Your language is very accusatory. At *worst*, scientists are gravely mistaken, but as you believe, so is everybody else. It's no more their fault than yours. Calling other people "demons" sounds rather like pride to me.

 

"Whoever sayest, 'Thou fool', shall be in danger of hellfire" /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[krsna]

Cc. Adi 9.43

 

 

Translation by Srila Prabhupada

 

“‘By his work, thoughts and words, an intelligent man must perform actions which will be beneficial for all living entities in this life and the next.’

 

Purport by Srila Prabhupada

 

Unfortunately, people in general do not know what is to take place in the next life. To prepare oneself for his next life is common sense, and it is a principle of the Vedic civilization, but presently people throughout the world do not believe in a next life. Even influential professors and other educators say that as soon as the body is finished, everything is finished. This atheistic philosophy is killing human civilization. People are irresponsibly performing all sorts of sinful activities, and thus the privilege of the human life is being taken away by the educational propaganda of the so-called leaders. Actually it is a fact that this life is meant for preparation for the next life; by evolution one has come through many species, or forms, and this human form of life is an opportunity to promote oneself to a better life. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gétä (9.25):

yänti deva-vratä devän pitèn yänti pitå-vratäù

bhütäni yänti bhütejyä yänti mad-yäjino ’pi mäm

“Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship Me will live with Me.” Therefore, one may promote himself to the higher planetary systems, which are the residence of the demigods, one can promote himself to Pitåloka, one can remain on earth, or one can also go back home, back to Godhead. This is further confirmed elsewhere in the Bhagavad-gétä (4.9): tyaktvä dehaà punar janma naiti mäm eti so ’rjuna. After giving up the body, one who knows Krishna in truth does not come back again to this world to accept a material body, but he goes back home, back to Godhead. This knowledge is in the çästras, and people should be given the opportunity to understand it. Even if one is not able to go back to Godhead in one life, the Vedic civilization at least gives one the opportunity to be promoted to the higher planetary systems, where the demigods live, and not glide down again to animal life. At present, people do not understand this knowledge, although it constitutes a great science, for they are uneducated and trained not to accept it. This is the horrible condition of modern human society. As such, the Krishna consciousness movement is the only hope to direct the attention of intelligent men to a greater benefit in life.