In the beginning, who do we worship?

[jayaisvara]

Dear devotees, please help me with this question that came to my mind. In the beginning, who do we worship? Do we worship Lord Krsna, Lord Gauranga and Lord Nityananda, or some other great personality?

 

I think as a beginner, although familiar with the philosophy to some tiny extent, I made the mistake of jumping from here and there. I didn't do anything systematically, but rather jumped here and there from Bhagavatam to Gita to Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta etc. Now I feel I need to get serious(I think). Thus the question above came to me.

[Guest guest]

in the beginnig, middle and end we worship mahamantra

[Guest guest]

Is there anything like begining, middle and end of worship? what I do if I sit and start praying or meditating or chanting is, Jaya Radhe Jaya Govinda and end with Krishnarpanamasthu...and the middle portion I begin with praying to Vigneshwara (Shree Ganesha) to remove any contamination of mind during my worship as they are obstacles to focus my mind on Govinda especially when I sit and meditate. After this, I pray to Shree Shiva and Durga Devi to remove all evil thoughts of mind due to worldly living and to help me fix my consciousness all the time on Shree Krishna..(while I am doing this worship, at the back of my mind, I will also be chanting Govinda Govinda), and then I chant Vishnu Sahasranama or if time is short due to other work, then I chant few rounds of Maha Mantra without any count...

Well..I dont belong to Hare Krishna Movement, but this praying to Shiva and Durga following what the Gopikaa's did really helped me to become more closer with my Govinda thinking of Him all of the time.

Raghavan

[Guest guest]

We should always start with worship of Sri Guru and the Vaisnavas as we can not enter the realm of Sri Gauranaga! without their mercy...

[theist]

 

If a devotee accepts Lord Sri Caitanya Mahäprabhu as the universal guru and Lord Jagannätha as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna, he is benefited by the combined mercy of Krsna and guru. - Madhya 13.18 purport

 

 

What can be said to be missing from Sri Caitanya? He showed what a perfect devotee is and how he lives therefore He is guru. He is also the most magnanimus incarnation, giving the highest to the lowest. He is also a combined form of Radha Krsna.

 

The thing is in our beginning stage we see a system that is to be followed and that takes discipline that sometimes involves a struggle. We must enforce our higher will upon our unwilling and untrained minds.

 

But we should look forward to the day when we get a taste for loving the Lord. Then system gives way to spontaneous attraction and only deepens. You will decide on which form of Krsna is most attractive to you. It is so deeply personal, the deepest. At this point all such questions of which form is the highest and most benefical to me and my sadhana will lose their importance. Then we will just follow the dictates of our love.

[jayaisvara]

I do not have a living guru so I can't possibly pray to him. I guess the mahamantra is the one I should worship. Did Srila Prabhupada say anything on this matter?

[theist]

You do have a living guru!

 

There is no such thing as a dead guru. It is a collosal contradiction in terms.

 

Count the gurus that you have. Caitya guru the Lord in the heart for one. How can you be without Living Guru when He has been with us every moment since we can into this universe? What to speak of before or in the future. Prabhupada's books are guru.

[Guest guest]

Sree Krishna by Himself in His transcendental form is a Guru who gave us the Bhagwat-Gita that speaks about the values and how one can reach Lord finally. All the real Gurus of the Kali yuga who established the path of religion and morals at different times in different places are also Krishna incarnate. Such Gurus always live although not physically. BY chanting their names, you are anyways praying to Krishna..if the mind does not accept since you have not personally interacted with one real Guru, you can consider Sree Krishna HImself as your Guru until He gets you one personal Guru.

Raghavan

[Guest guest]

"You do have a living guru!

There is no such thing as a dead guru. It is a collosal contradiction in terms."

 

 

you know surely that when someone says "living guru" the true meaning is "a guru who we can relate with in a normal human relationship"

 

of course if you can speak with prabhupada like when you speak with a neighborhood or a friend there's no problem.. the same with krsna in your heart

 

 

 

 

[jayaisvara]

Yes theistji, I am aware that I have Caitya Guru and Swami Prabhupada's books. But I think its a one way connection, meaning they can, if they want to, somehow mystically direct my next move (Supersoul) but I can't ask advice from them. Of course, that could be because anything I say is foolish. So I guess until I can ask some real, meaningful questions, I only need Caitya Guru and the books of advanced devotees, and of course, association.

 

The problem with Prabhupada's books, or any book for that matter, is that if you don't understand something, especially if you are a neophyte, you will definitely speculate, like myself.

 

I remember praying once to Lord that to only reveal my guru when I am fully competent to receive such a great personality. So I guess I must first prepare myself. The last thing I want is to committ any aparadha against guru, omg! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Main thing is Siksa {Knowledge}

 

Anyway your meant to serve Guru.

 

All this living Guru and dead Guru will make you head spin. This is some kind of ism created

by people who like to have No Guru!

[Guest guest]

Living guru means tangible guru who you can approach and enquire from him the Truth about your queries, as Lord Kishna Himself instructed us to do, andall the genuine teachers in our line also advise. This is to assure we don't speculate about our conclusions that may or may not be coming from the lord in our heart. I think it says somewhere in the biblical teachings one should never trust our heart and minds speculations. So we should sincerely approach a soul who is said to be both self and God realized and align oneself with the teachings emanating from their lotus lips. Who is considered an Uttama adhikari a pure and fully surrendered soul cent per cent in Love with the Lord and who in turn is serving his bona fide teacher with all his heart mind body and soul. There is no doubt this is the path to God, The real trick is being sincere enough to be directed to such a souls tangible prescence to take that first step.

But let us not delude ourselves we have some direct connection to the Lord crossing over the link and parampara that leads to Him.

Your servant, Dasanudas

[Guest guest]

Not only in the beginning, but the middle, all future lives, and in our eternal spiritual form will we always serve our saviour--- Sri Guru. A distinctive personality, find them where ever they are and madly worship and appreciate their Divine presence for thru this grace of God is assured, for it is non-different from that of Lord Sri Sri Radha-Govinda.

Yasya prasadad Bhagavat prasado

yasya prasadam na gatih kuto pi

Without the grace of the spiritual master one can't make any advancement. BUS

[theist]

 

Living guru means tangible guru who you can approach and enquire from him the Truth about your queries,...

 

 

Do you consider Srila Prabhupada or Caitya guru non- tangelible because they are not in a material form? Does that mean you cannot pray to the Lord in heart because you cannot see Him with your material eyes? This whole line of thought I see as the problem that must be overcome.

 

 

 

...as Lord Kishna Himself instructed us to do, andall the genuine teachers in our line also advise. This is to assure we don't speculate about our conclusions that may or may not be coming from the lord in our heart.

 

 

But that assurance is not there by sitting at the feet of an external manifestation of guru is it? Two people can listen to the same talk and come away with two different impressions. Why?

 

I believe without the Lord in the heart guiding it past one's material molded mind and actually placing it in the heart, as it is, as realization ,one has not really heard guru but instead only a version filtered and altered by the impure mind.

 

Another point I would have to question is if one is relating to His Spiritual master as someone other than a manifestation of the Supersoul then is he really capable of hearing his SP correctly in the first place? Or is his guru someone who is less than God realized in which case how could one have full faith anyway?

 

 

 

So we should sincerely approach a soul who is said to be both self and God realized and align oneself with the teachings emanating from their lotus lips.

 

 

 

Said by who? is the question. My position is until you hear it said by Caitya guru you haven't really heard. "Here is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased."

 

 

 

Who is considered an Uttama adhikari a pure and fully surrendered soul cent per cent in Love with the Lord and who in turn is serving his bona fide teacher with all his heart mind body and soul.

 

 

Same question. Considered by who?

 

 

There is no doubt this is the path to God, The real trick is being sincere enough. to be directed to such a souls tangible prescence to take that first step.

 

 

Yes, no doubt. But who judges one's level of sincerity and who directs one to such a soul? These are the essential questions here.

 

 

 

But let us not delude ourselves we have some direct connection to the Lord crossing over the link and parampara that leads to Him.

 

 

Agreed. But let us not also delude ourselves by thinking we have such a link with the parampara that is separate from the Lord in the heart.

 

Accepting guru means having a direct link with Krsna because guru is a manifestation of Krsna. If this is not understood I must question the reality of the link with guru as being mostly imaginary or at least very immature.

 

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada spoke in the following manner. Say I want to go see Bush (yeah, like that will ever be a desire=;-). Do I just go knock on the door in DC or drive up to his ranch in Texas? How absurd to think that this is possible, and the Prez is such a little man.

 

But If I happened to get to know Condi Rice, and she was pleased by my service (or connections to international oil cartels), she could arrange that I confer with the prez very swiftly.

 

God has an agent who weeds out the pretenders from the contenders. This is called GURU. Guru is given by God, so our desire to make spiritual advancement sparks this arrangement. Guru is sent, and this is whom we practice on in order to perfect our worship of the Supreme Lord. This practice is called sadhana bhakti, and can be instituted in the heart by any type of guru, from initiator, instructor, or even by the guru who first told us about Krsna. All gurus are tangible and worshippable, and this worship softens the heart, breaks the spell of worshipping the material mind and form as the self.

 

\So, worship begins when the head touches the ground and admission of self plight takes place. Arjuna was Krsnas friend, but worship began in the middle of a nervous breakdown on the chariot where arjuna admitted his complete disqualification.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

sorry for using bushjesus in my analogy.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Haribol,theist, sorry if my post seemed aimed. I usually press the reply button on the last post of a topic.

 

I almost alweays fully support your views on these things and derive much nectar from your vision. The world topics channel are a place where mahaksa ali and maitreya marciano can do a bit of sparrin. The bushy thing on my post above is not intended to provoke such sparrin here. We can do that on world events. lub ya brah, mahak

[theist]

 

God has an agent who weeds out the pretenders from the contenders.

 

 

Yes pretenders fall away and often leave physically as well. But this cannot be seen as an act occurring separate from Supersoul who has been awarding the fullfillment of desires since time immemorial. He sends those to the cheaters who want to be cheated. To others that may appear to approach the proper person if our attitude is not proper even then the union is not consumated in the heart and remains on the superfical platform.

 

"bushjesus"? What? Are you refering to?.. the burning-bush or something.

 

mahaksa, isn't it time to find a new bogeyman? You may be thinking about him too much. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

You don't want to serve!

 

Have you been reading my diary? You can see in it what it means to Not Surrender. Anyway, must go..

[theist]

but thanks for the reminder.

[Guest guest]

"Do you consider Srila Prabhupada or Caitya guru non- tangelible because they are not in a material form?"

 

practically speaking, for non "uttama adhikari" devotees, prabhupada and chatya guru are hidden, unknown.. The demonstration is that me and you are reading prabhupada's books and both have paramatma but our opinions are sincerely opposite

 

" Two people can listen to the same talk and come away with two different impressions. Why?"

 

maya... but having the phisical presence of the guru is without doubt a huge advantage.. essential advantage

 

"I believe without the Lord in the heart guiding it past one's material molded mind and actually placing it in the heart, as it is, as realization ,one has not really heard guru but instead only a version filtered and altered by the impure mind."

 

do not forget that guru is not a picture or a symbol.. he's a person, he's here in front of me to explain krsna consciousness and to read in my heart if i have understood or not and to change interactively the way to preach to correct my misunderstanding

 

"Another point I would have to question is if one is relating to His Spiritual master as someone other than a manifestation of the Supersoul"

 

to relationate with the spiritual master has necessarily to do with being in his presence and to relationate in complete interaction. If i am trascendental i do it in goloka vrindavan, if i am not there's no other possibility than doing it in this world using also the thipical procedures of this world

 

"who judges one's level of sincerity...."

 

we cannot judge.. there's great risks to be cheated.. but it has to be done. If we do not start to love, we never will discover what true love is

 

".. and who directs one to such a soul?"

 

krsna or krsna in the form of maya

 

"Accepting guru means having a direct link with Krsna because guru is a manifestation of Krsna."

 

because practically speaking, together with mahamantra, he's the only form of krsna we can relationate with..

 

 

 

 

 

[theist]

 

do not forget that guru is not a picture or a symbol.. he's a person, he's here in front of me to explain krsna consciousness and to read in my heart if i have understood or not and to change interactively the way to preach to correct my misunderstanding

 

 

Do not forget that Visnu is not just a picture or a symbol...He's a person, He is here in front of me(and next to me and all around me and within me) to explain Krsna consciousness and to read in my heart if I have understood or not and to change interactively the way to preach to correct my misunderstanding.

[theist]

TRANSLATION Bg10.11

To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.

 

 

PURPORT

When Lord Caitanya was in Benares promulgating the chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Räma, Hare Räma, Räma Räma, Hare Hare, thousands of people were following Him. Prakäsänanda Sarasvaté, a very influential and learned scholar in Benares at that time, derided Lord Caitanya for being a sentimentalist. Sometimes philosophers criticize the devotees because they think that most of the devotees are in the darkness of ignorance and are philosophically naive sentimentalists. Actually that is not the fact. There are very, very learned scholars who have put forward the philosophy of devotion. But even if a devotee does not take advantage of their literatures or of his spiritual master, if he is sincere in his devotional service he is helped by Kåñëa Himself within his heart. So the sincere devotee engaged in Kåñëa consciousness cannot be without knowledge. The only qualification is that one carry out devotional service in full Kåñëa consciousness.

The modern philosophers think that without discriminating one cannot have pure knowledge. For them this answer is given by the Supreme Lord: those who are engaged in pure devotional service, even though they be without sufficient education and even without sufficient knowledge of the Vedic principles, are still helped by the Supreme God, as stated in this verse.

The Lord tells Arjuna that basically there is no possibility of understanding the Supreme Truth, the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, simply by speculating, for the Supreme Truth is so great that it is not possible to understand Him or to achieve Him simply by making a mental effort. Man can go on speculating for several millions of years, and if he is not devoted, if he is not a lover of the Supreme Truth, he will never understand Kåñëa, or the Supreme Truth. Only by devotional service is the Supreme Truth, Kåñëa, pleased, and by His inconceivable energy He can reveal Himself to the heart of the pure devotee. The pure devotee always has Kåñëa within his heart; and with the presence of Kåñëa, who is just like the sun, the darkness of ignorance is at once dissipated. This is the special mercy rendered to the pure devotee by Kåñëa.

Due to the contamination of material association, through many, many millions of births, one’s heart is always covered with the dust of materialism, but when one engages in devotional service and constantly chants Hare Kåñëa, the dust quickly clears, and one is elevated to the platform of pure knowledge. The ultimate goal, Viñëu, can be attained only by this chant and by devotional service, and not by mental speculation or argument. The pure devotee does not have to worry about the material necessities of life; he need not be anxious, because when he removes the darkness from his heart, everything is provided automatically by the Supreme Lord, who is pleased by the loving devotional service of the devotee. This is the essence of the teachings of Bhagavad-gétä. By studying Bhagavad-gétä, one can become a soul completely surrendered to the Supreme Lord and engage himself in pure devotional service. As the Lord takes charge, one becomes completely free from all kinds of materialistic endeavors.

 

[Guest guest]

"Do not forget that Visnu is not just a picture or a symbol...He's a person, He is here in front of me(and next to me and all around me and within me) to explain Krsna consciousness and to read in my heart if I have understood or not and to change interactively the way to preach to correct my misunderstanding."

 

no.. he's not doing it directly.. he instructs me through parampara, through the manifest uttama adhikari spiritual master

 

(again this explanation is not for you if you see directly and relationate freely with vishnu and prabhupada)

 

[theist]

I have nothing to add.

 

Hare Krsna

[Guest guest]

the above purport was given by one who was initiated, who has phisical association of his guru,and who gave initiation and phisical association to thousand of people..

 

and all these people consider a big disgrace that there's no more the possibility to relationate in "our" way with srila prabhupada

 

they do not think that books are enough or praying to paramatma gives the same inspiration and bliss