Is Krishna greater?

[Guest guest]

Is Lord Krishna Greater than MahaVishnu?

 

[Guest guest]

According to the HK message, yes. - although many purports of SP's writings say "Visnu" with "Krsna" in brackets, implying they are the same.

[Guest guest]

<<< According to the HK message, yes >>>

 

Prabhu,

 

That is incorrect. Krishna and Visnu are the same, just as two lit candles are. However just as one candle has to be the source, similarly Krishna is the source of all incarnations.

 

- ksb

[Guest guest]

krsna simply shows more intimacy and less or even no will to be recognized as god among his associates

 

simply two facets of the same person

[Guest guest]

visnos tu trini rupani

purusakhyany atho viduh

ekam tu mahatah srastr

dvitiyam tv anda-samsthitam

trtiyam sarva-bhuta-stham

tani jnatva vimucyate

"For material creation, Lord Krsna's plenary expansion assumes three Visnus. The first one, Maha-Visnu, creates the total material energy, known as the mahat-tattva. The second, Garbhodakasayi Visnu, enters into all the universes to create diversities in each of them. The third, Ksirodakasayi Visnu, is diffused as the all-pervading Supersoul in all the universes and is known as Paramatma. He is present even within the atoms. Anyone who knows these three Visnus can be liberated from material entanglement." BHagavad Gita As It Is 7.4

Translation and purport by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada - Founder acarya of ISKCON

 

prathamei kare krsna ‘purusavatara'

seita purusa haya trividha prakara

SYNONYMS

prathamei -- in the beginning; kare -- does; krsna -- Lord Krsna; purusa-avatara -- the incarnation of the three Visnus (Maha-Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu); seita -- that; purusa -- Visnu; haya -- becomes; tri-vidha prakara -- three different manifestations.

TRANSLATION

"In the beginning, Krsna incarnates Himself as the purusa-avataras, or Visnu incarnations. These are of three types.

PURPORT

Up to this verse, the many types of expansions have been described. Now the manifestations of the Lord's different potencies will be described.

Madhya 20.251

TEXT 251

TEXT

¿õNøž±d SN¿í õþ+ó±¿í óRø¸±mI±dINn± ¿õðRÃÐ h

ÛLÁc ÷ýÃÃîÂÐ ¦Ú©†Ô ¿ZîÂNlþS QGuS¿¦šîÂ÷A h

îÔÂîÂNlþS uõStÓÂS d :±Q± ¿õ÷RaÂINî N 251 N

visnos tu trini rupani

purusakhyany atho viduh

ekam tu mahatah srastr

dvitiyam tv anda-samsthitam

trtiyam sarva-bhuta-stham

tani jnatva vimucyate

SYNONYMS

visnoh -- of Lord Visnu; tu -- certainly; trini -- three; rupani -- forms; purusa-akhyani -- celebrated as the purusas; atho -- how; viduh -- they know; ekam -- one of them; tu -- but; mahatah srastr -- the creator of the total material energy; dvitiyam -- the second; tu -- but; anda-samsthitam -- situated within the universe; trtiyam -- the third; sarva-bhuta-stham -- within the hearts of all living entities; tani -- these three; jnatva -- knowing; vimucyate -- one becomes liberated.

TRANSLATION

"‘Visnu has three forms called purusas. The first, Maha-Visnu, is the creator of the total material energy [mahat], the second is Garbhodasayi, who is situated within each universe, and the third is Ksirodasayi, who lives in the heart of every living being. He who knows these three becomes liberated from the clutches of maya.'

PURPORT

This verse appears in the Laghu-bhagavatamrta (Purva-khanda 2.9), where it has been quoted from the Satvata-tantra.

Madhya 20.252

TEXT 252

ananta-sakti-madhye krsnera tina sakti pradhana

‘iccha-sakti', ‘jnana-sakti', ‘kriya-sakti' nama

SYNONYMS

ananta-sakti -- of unlimited potencies; madhye -- in the midst; krsnera -- of Lord Krsna; tina -- three; sakti -- potencies; pradhana -- are chief; iccha-sakti -- willpower; jnana-sakti -- the power of knowledge; kriya-sakti -- the creative energy; nama -- named.

TRANSLATION

"Krsna has unlimited potencies, out of which three are chief -- willpower, the power of knowledge and the creative energy.

CC Madhya 20.253

Translation and purport by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada - Founder acarya of ISKCON

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Besides these sixty transcendental qualities, Krsna has four more, which are not manifest even in the Narayana form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows. (61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation.

Adding to the list these four exceptional qualities of Krsna, it is to be understood that the aggregate number of qualities of Krsna is sixty-four. Srila Rupa Gosvami has attempted to give evidences from various scriptures about all sixty-four qualities present in the person of the Supreme.

 

NoD 21: Qualities of Sri Krsna

Translation by His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada- Founder acarya of ISKCON

 

 

 

[theist]

Ask if He is sweeter instead. So they say anyway. I can't imagine having that refined of a palate.

[Kulapavana]

Is Lord Krishna Greater than MahaVishnu?

 

can one Infinite be greater than another Infinite? it is not a matter of difference in greatness (it is even beyond our limited ability to grasp such magnitudes), but of differences in taste (rasa) between us and these two forms of the Supreme Lord.

[Raghavan]

What is this question? Are you asking this based on Krishna avathara? even so, Krishna Avathar is Poorna Avathar, which means He showed to people at times that He is not just oridary human form, but the Supreme most power incarnate Himself by all means. IN India, most of the people, we are used to worship Him as Shree Hari/ Sreeman Narayana/ Sree Mahavishnu, while the Gaudiya Vaishnava group worship Him in Krishna form. But otherwise there is no difference. The Shree refers to His Potency. Shree means Lakshmi, while Gaudiya Vaishnava call Him as Hare-Krishna where Hare refers to His potency. Mahavishnu and Krishna are just the two different of HIs thousand names, but they are one and the same in essence. The Supreme Power descended in the nameof Sree Krishna to establish the path of religious righteousness and Dharma and He was named for that Avathar as Krishna that does not mean He is lesser as He was in human form. That Human form by itself was not like our human body since we all age, while Krishna never aged physically too and His body was transcendental. There is nothing wrong if you call Him as Sreeman Narayana or Shree Hari or just Sree Krishna. Supreme power is formless and difficult to perceive by the human mind and eyes, and so He came with the most beautiful all attractive form as Sree Krishna for us to fix Him in our mind and to focus. He gave the Gita for us to follow to reach Him finally. If you read Gita from 9th to 11 chapter, you will understand the real form of Sree Krishna.

 

 

[theist]

Raghvan prabhu, could you expand on this a little more?

 

 

There is nothing wrong if you call Him as Sreeman Narayana or Shree Hari or just Sree Krishna. Supreme power is formless and difficult to perceive by the human mind and eyes, and so He came with the most beautiful all attractive form as Sree Krishna for us to fix Him in our mind and to focus.

 

 

[theist]

When Sri Krsna assumed the form of the four-armed Näräyana, the gopis showed their respect, but they were not very interested in Him. In the ecstatic love of the gopis, all worshipable forms but Krsna are rejected. Among all the gopis, Srimati Rädhäräni has the highest ecstatic love. When Krsna in His form of Näräyana saw Rädhäräni, He could not keep His position as Näräyana, and again He assumed the form of Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Hey its time out you should change your old fashioned views.

Krishna and Vishnu are both Mythological characters and have nothing to relate with divinity.

It is you people who make them "Great" or "lord" just as the Greek men worshipped Zeus.

[Raghavan]

Theistji..

YOur question itself has the answer for what you are asking for. I mentioned that "The Supreme formless all powerful Lord is difficult to perceive, (that is explained in Gita also) and so that Great Power descended down as Sree Krsihna for us to fix our mind on that form".

 

Sree Krishna when appeared as Sreeman Narayana, were rejected by Gopikaa's and that Lord Himself could not control and assume the form Krishna when He sees Radha. This is clearly an indication that He is Loved the most in the beautiful all attractive form as how He appeared to all and mixed with people showering the love for His devotees.. Radha is synonymous with uncontaminated devotional Love towards Lord, and so the fact that formless Lord when He sees His uncontaminated devotee, He Himself could not control to appear in the way that devotee wants Him to see. To exemplify this fact only, Lord suddenly became 4 armed form and for us to realise that how He can be attracted, He assumed the two armed form when He saw His best of the best devotee who is Sree Radha.

If you read Gita, in the purport written Swami Prabupaada, He has used both Vishnu and Krishna synonymously in some places.

If a devotee wants Him as Narayana He comes like that, if a devotee wants Him in two armed form He comes like that depending on the eligibility of that soul. The reason why two armed form is considered more auspicious is, due to the fact, thats the most Loveable form where one can be with Lord in the way they Love Him, as friend, or lover, or child, which is more comfortable for any soul to immediately fall in Love with, without any inhibitions of mind.

His idea was to attract all the soul in one way or other way. But basically He is the father of all, but all the children does not feel comfortable in playing, hugging and doing mischief with their dad, so the Big dad appeared as friend, child, lover for His own kids to feel comfortable with Him to reach Him. This is the best of His pasttimes that can be understood only by pure devotion and not my mental speculation.

Personally, I love HIm in His two armed form and also as Narayana. But when I had a chance to fell Him in temple, to the main deity as Narayana, I touched His foot without my knowledge, but to Sree Krishna form, I felt more comfortable to feel His face too like my own. Its a natural feeling for the Jeevas to have that respect, but with a friend or a lover, although you respect the most, yet you feel something more freedom to mix with. Thats why Lord appeared as two armed Sree Krishna form and for the same reason He was respected as Narayana but loved most as Sree Krishna.

 

[theist]

What I am trying to understand is you see the Lord as formless but Who takes form to to satisfy His devotee's desire for some particular personal relationship. So Krishna, Narayana etc. are manifestations of the formless impersonal Brahman.

 

Do I understand you correctly?

 

I see it differently.

 

TRANSLATION Bg 14.27

 

And I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is immortal, imperishable and eternal and is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness.

[Guest guest]

Sri Krishna is the source of all other incarnations including Sri Visnu so therefore He is greater. Nothing can be greater than the source of everything can they?

[Raghavan]

When I say formless, I dont mean that Lord is shapelss and impersonal. He can take anyform and including being formless that is impractical for us to perceive. His poornavathara form with all His magnificiency is the Two armed form as Sree Krishna and thats why whether He is called as Shree Hari or Shree Krishna its the same. For His devotees who are His friends and Gopikas, He is lovingly called as Govinda. Sree Krishna instantly comes to rescue when He is addressed as Govinda. He took the name of Sree Krishna for the Poornavathar role that He took recently and since He appeared with all His full potency in that form unlike all other forms, Krishna and Hari are the same without any difference. The one who is sleeping on the celestial bed of Adhishesha and the one who is playing in Goloka are non different and its upto the jeevas to accept Him and worship Him the form we like. If you worship Him as father then you see His Narayana form, if you worship Him as friend, or lover or child, then you go to Goloka and be there with Sree Krishna form. Irrespective of the mode of affection the jeevas develop towards Him, He is in reality the Father of all souls as He Himself says that IN GITA. If Lord appears as Lord it will be very scary honestly which was expressed by Arjuna when he saw Krishnaa's Universal form that he could not see with His physical eyes, but only with spiritual eyes given by Lord for that moment. For someone like Arjuna who was a great devotee of Shri Hari, he himself felt that fear and begging to Lord to appear as two armed form, that is so dear to everyone, its clear that Lord took that form as another human with all the attractions, primarily to attract all the Jeevas. Afterall we are His kids and It is His major concern to take us back home. even the worst criminal with all papa karma at one stage of his life, while passing through different bodies, will be made to realise that Lord and become devoted. NOne in real sense is actually left out by Him, but the time that takes to go back home depends on the actions of the soul that it performs while remaining in particular body.

[Guest guest]

Guest said:

 

That is incorrect. Krishna and Visnu are the same, just as two lit candles are. However just as one candle has to be the source, similarly Krishna is the source of all incarnations.

 

--------

 

 

The second candle has to be lit then, no? That means if Krsna is the source and all others are his Avatars or expansions, then what of the concept of Visnu-tattva?

 

Visnu-tattva is eternal and HAS NO BEGINNING. To say Visnu is the source of Krsna or Krsna is the source of Visnu causes me confusion because having a source automatically implies a kind of birth. Or am i looking into this too deeply?

[Guest guest]

Naryana IS Krishna and Krishna IS Narayana.

 

Gaudiyas say Krishna is the "source." Sri Vaishnavs say Narayana is the "source."

 

Anyway, they are one and the same. Some may be more drawn to one than the other.

[Raghavan]

Sree Krishna is Shree Hari-Sreeman Narayana and vice versa. Shriman Naryana's poornavathar form is Sree Krishna and He is considered all powerful Almighty unlike other avathars because He was poornavathar unlike even SriRamavathar.

 

I have not read Prahaladha who was in Satya Yuga chanting Hare Krishna. Neither Naradha is not mentioned to chant Krishna, rather they were chanting Narayana mantra. (Please forgive me if I am wrong and please give correction) To them they Looked at Lord as Father of all, and so they were praying to Him as Shriman Narayana, while for Gopikaa and Arjuna, Yashodha, etc Lord appeared in different forms as how they wished as Lover or friend or child. But both forms are same the later in disguise form unlike the former.

 

The reason could be I beleive that, since Lord knows that in the following Kali yuga, due to the various attributes of Kali, people needs His form to concentrate unlike in other previous yugas. So to help all the Jeevas He descended in beautiful form, mainly to attract everyone and gave GITA and established the path again for us to follow. Its been repeatedly mentioned that in Kali yuga, just chanting Hari Naama by itself will purify the soul in course of time.

 

So ShriHari/Sreeman-Narayana called Himself as Sree Krishna (all attractive) in His Poornavathara Form in the Dwapara Yuga. Since He is full in all His glory and power in Sree Krishna form, Both Shri Hari and Shri Krishna are synonymous. Its only our way of worship is different as per our sampradhayam in which we are brought up or tend to follow.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

The second candle has to be lit then, no? That means if Krsna is the source and all others are his Avatars or expansions, then what of the concept of Visnu-tattva?

 

 

 

We think like this because of the influence of material Time which is forked into past,present and future. In the spiritual realm there is only the Eternal Time (only present), and all that is written as happenning in the spiritual realm is eternally accomplished. So there was no time when candles were lit, even this question does not make sense in the context of Absolute. Naturally, with the current mind we cannot even imagine the nature of Eternal Time and therefore it has been said that we can really understand these things only when the mind has been completely purified (vishuddha-sattva) and we must be careful to not apply our material understanding to the spiritual realm.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

 

I have not read Prahaladha who was in Satya Yuga chanting Hare Krishna. Neither Naradha is not mentioned to chant Krishna, rather they were chanting Narayana mantra.

 

 

 

The vishnu-sahsranama has been recited always; gopala-tapani upanishad is part of the eternal veda etc. The Hare-Krishna mahamantra is also said to descending from Lord Brahma (mentioned in numerous places like kali-santarana upanishad, brahmanda purana, ananta-samhita, brahma-yamala, sanat kumara samhita etc.). It is true that the mahamantra has been specifically said to be suitable for Kali-yuga. The ananta-samhita has given the following mantra for Treta-yuga:

rama narayana-ananta mukunda madhusudana

krsna kesava kamsare hare vaikuntha vamana

meaning that this was being recited before the appearence of Sri Krishna on earth.

 

You may be right about Prahlada Maharaja but that does not mean much; the names of Lord are eternal and not after the appearence of Krishna on earth. For example, right now we have been given the information of Kalki avataara and similarly i think the avataars would have been known before their appearance.

 

Actually, all the vedic texts have been put into writing by Srila Vyasadeva so we must accept his conclusions. I think eventually it does not matter which way one takes it; just thought devotees may be interested to know.

[Guest guest]

krsna appears cyclically in our world.. if you read bhagavad gita He says to arjuna that he had already spoken the gita many ages before to vivasvan, the sun god..

 

[Guest guest]

Your second question, "Why did Arjuna ask Krishna to go to His four armed form rather than His two armed form after Krishna had showed Arjuna His Visvarupa?'' Because he understood that Krishna is the original Narayana. After seeing His Visvarupa, Arjuna was accustomed to see Krishna with two hands, but when he saw the Visvarupa, he understood Him the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such, he requested Him to revert to the original Form of Narayana. Then, Krishna after showing him the Narayana form, again to revert to His original Krishna form. Krishna explained that Narayana form is not original, but Krishna form in two hands is the original and even the demigods desire to see this form.

Hope you are well.

Your ever well-wisher,

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Letter to: Purusottama -- Montreal 14 June, 1968

 

 

 

 

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

That's right. At least in gaudiyas (not sure about other vaishnava sampradayas) all the avataars are eternal and only appear on this planet, example given of sun appearing at a particular place, at a certain time.

[vijay]

Nice verse sumedh prabhu.

 

Just to add my bit if anyones interested.

I also thought how can we speak of an original form or the first candle, if all vishnu tatva are eternal. Then I came acroos and article in BTG where someone asks the same question.

 

It was explained using the analogy of the sun if i remeber correctly.

The sun is the source of the sunshine right?

however which one came first? Without the sun there is no shine, and without shine there is no sun? (sun defined as light emitting planet).

 

Now take the analogy futher and imagine (if possible) that the sun and shine are eternal.

 

So eternally the sun can be said to be the source of the sunshine. Ie krishna the source of all expansions.

 

I thought it was a fairly good analogy as far as material analogies in trying to understand the spiritual go.