Basu Gosh's Proposal to Suspend 2000 Resolution Regarding Women

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Goto site for full-details. Somebody sent me this.

I am not sure what exacty is going on but am posting-

 

http://www.dharmacoalition.com/

Petition to the GBC Re: Basu Gosh's Proposal to

 

Suspend 2000 Resolution Regarding Women

 

I, the undersigned, do hereby register my disapproval of the proposal submitted by Basu Ghosh prabhu to suspend the 2000 GBC resolutions concerning women, for the following reasons:

 

The mandate of the GBC is to see that the standards Srila Prabhupada wanted in his ISKCON movement are established and maintained.

 

The GBC resolutions of 2000 regarding women reestablish the standards that Srila Prabhupada himself set for the women in his movement.

 

The resolutions insure equitable treatment for all women devotees in ISKCON.

 

The resolutions offer the women of this movement evidence that their leaders care about and want to encourage their Krishna consciousness.

 

The resolutions give hope that ISKCON's highest governing board currently represents Srila Prabhupada's mood toward women in his movement

 

Concerned members of the GBC can best protect women in ISKCON by dismissing any attempt to restrain them in their pursuit of devotional service as evidenced and experienced during Srila Prabhupada's presence.

 

Srila Prabhupada did encourage and involve women to serve the ISKCON society in many ways. This was done not as a 'welfare act'. Rather, the fact that both Western boys and girls were so much absorbed in Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement was a great source of pride for Srila Prabhupada.

 

To suspend the resolutions of 2000, which were passed after more than twenty-five years of overlooking the inequitable situation of women in ISKCON, is untenable. I request that Basu Ghosh's proposal as it now stands be unconditionally dismissed. I add to this a further request that the GBC appoint a committee of representatives from the Women's Ministery to inititate a dialogue with other concerned parties on this topic, as mandated by the Resolution voted in 2000.

Supporting documents:

 

Basu Ghosh's proposal

Basu 2000 resolutions

See site for petition.

http://www.dharmacoalition.com/

[Guest guest]

Apparently this relates to the idea that women need a GBC resolution in order to engage in devotional service to Krishna.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

In his proposal, Basu Ghosh Prabhu implies that there is NO RESPONSIBILITY ON BEHALF OF ISKCON for the treatment of women who surrendered their lives to Iskcon temples and Iskcon gurus, because SP stated that a woman is always dependent, initially on her father, then husband, then her grown son. Actually, the main religious principle here (one of women's dependency) applies to Iskcon as well. Were these women not living under Iskcon's roof? Were they not serving Iskcon? Of course they were... Using such guru-quoting word jugglery by Basu Ghosh to cover up Iskcon's rightful responsibility is obviously CHEATING, and would not hold up in any court of law.

 

If people like Basu Ghosh were really concerned about following Srila Prabhupada's orders in social sense, they would have implemented his last order to establish varnashrama dharma system in our Society. A brahmani woman has more right to give class in the temple than a sudra man.

 

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Speaking as a friend-

 

Maybe you can write a Book. About how to have Varna system in Kali-yuga?

 

I am not being funny. I asked you this before. Practical tips on how to establish. Or better still make a site. So we can see it quicker. Update it. I am greedy so don't make any excuse.

 

speaking as a devotee-

 

Sorry for what I said above.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna.

 

I am 17 and have been devotee since being born but I am not initiated. I do not like to ill speak of other devotees, but I feel that if I do not bring up this matter, than we are not doing our best to live up to Prabhupada's wishes.

 

Once I was doing service shining the lord's lamps, and brassware when a devotee told the Head pujari that I'm a karmi and shouldn't be in diety kitchen because I wasn't wearing dhoti. The Head pujari told me this, and I felt very insulted because he knows who I am and has been to my house before.

 

At first I felt very bad until questions started to arise.

Why did head pujari not tell me himself when he saw me start service. This incident happened after 1 and half hours service! I have seen head pujari and his family do service in karmi clothes, but they are not picked on. To add to it, the devotee who told head pujari is in admin and after telling a member of council about it, they have simply swept away the affair.

 

Normally, I would not care about the incident and would mind my own business, but I am asking for ideas of what I can do to help temple because I do not wish for Prabhupada's work to be affected to potentially corrupt devotees. There is no list of rules, no temple times, no organisation, nothing here. When I was doing service, I saw 2 devotees come in and pick maha straight off the Lord's plates before they had been washed. I could not say anything because I am not initiated. Furthermore, the devotee in question who is in admin gets 20% of all temple donations for himself. The worst of it is that he once mistreated a 66 year old indian man who came from another country and walked 6km from road with bags in hand just to ask about land. He was not offered water, prasad or even a place to stay. Should devotees in such high positions not know what lines they must not cross and how to treat others.

 

I think it is necessary that the GBC review the practices in some temples where many devotees are leaving to overseas because they have no say in what they can do or how they can conduct service in temple. What are your opinions, as I would most certainly like to know if the GBC is aware of such things.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Prabhuji I don't have any idea how to reply.

 

First of all you not initiated you say. If you didn't mention I would not have known this. Anybody asks you say Siksa is more important than Diksya. If they say you still need living Guru say 'you are my Guru as we are all servants of the servants, Prabhu [master]. If they say still you need, just say Prabhupada not accept Guru until very later in life. [initiation]. If they say this is His Divine Grace we cannot follow, say 'Then whom do we follow?' If this person has any sense he say nothing more.

 

Krishna Consciousness is about what you are actually doing. For you Guru will come to your door. Others have to find. Hare Krishna

[Kulapavana]

"I am not being funny. I asked you this before. Practical tips on how to establish. Or better still make a site. So we can see it quicker. Update it. I am greedy so don't make any excuse. "

 

LOL@"greedy" part.... you are very kind, prabhu.

 

I have neither the expertise to set up such a site, nor the time to keep it filled and updated. More importantly though, I do not see the desire in devotees to actually take up the varnashrama system. even the big preachers and verbal proponents of the varnasrama system WILL NOT DECLARE THEIR OWN VARNA and act accordingly... so, what's the use of such a book or a site?

 

they read Prabhupad's writings, and pick what they like. they say: women should not give a class... but why should sudras be allowed to give a class? or why should vaishyas and sudras be allowed to hold administrative posts in our movement? all such things are material considerations, but they are equally valid.

 

it is not that we should have some rigid varna system, where persons of lower varnas feel threatened and diminished.

 

but a person of sudra nature should know his limitations AND REFRAIN FROM INDEPENDENT INTERPRETATION OF GURU AND SHASTRA because all his interpretations are nonsense and disturbance to society. similarly, a person of vaishya nature should not be allowed to dictate how the society or temple is managed, because his natural tendencies will be to exploit others for his own gain.

 

such considerations are ELEMENTARY, yet they are not being followed, or even taken seriously by most devotees.

 

the problems in our society stem not from lack of knowledge, but from LACK OF DESIRE to use the knowledge given to us by Srila Prabhupada. the problem lies within...

[krsna]

GHQ member tries to turn back the clock on women's rights

by the Chakra editorial team

 

Posted January 31, 2005

 

Editor's note: Basu Ghosh prabhu, a member of the neo-conservative GHQ faction, wants an end to legislated equality for women within ISKCON; he has asked the GBC to rescind the year-2000 resolution 501 on Women's Rights in ISKCON.

 

His proposed 2005 replacement resolution claims the earlier resolution was adopted in haste and without consideration. For five years, it has been ISKCON law that all ISKCON temples are to encourage "all qualified devotees, regardless of gender, to speak on Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, etc. during the regular temple class" and that all ISKCON temples must designate "half of the temple room area, divided in the center from the altar" for women (Law 618 on Women's Participation).

 

Basu Ghosh das's proposed resolution calls for replacing the current regime of statutory protection for women's rights with the most conservative possible interpretation of Srila Prabhupada's statements on women -- to return, in fact, to the pre-2000 era where, to quote from the third item of the preamble to the earlier resolution 501,"the voice of our women . . . have been hushed and stifled due to misinterpretation of our Vaisnava philosophy, and thus the human and interpersonal needs of our devotees have been minimized."

 

The GBC asks proponents of resolutions sponsored for debate at their meetings to provide a rationale for proposals, to justify their importance to ISKCON, and to foresee the results of implementation. In item 2 (d) of their supporting explanation, advocates for the new proposed resolution claim that this retrograde step will be important for the success of ISKCON by somehow mending its "perceptible conservative/liberal rift".

 

One GBC member has agreed to sponsor Basu Ghosh das's proposed resolution, so it will likely come to a vote at this year's Mayapura meetings. Under Robert's Rules of Order, such sponsorship does not necessarily imply approval.

 

On January 19, Chakra invited Basu Ghosh das to respond with a justification of his proposal; but he has declined this opportunity.

 

Braja Bihari das has offered to mediate a discussion between Basu Ghosh and members of the ISKCON Women's Ministry to seek a possible negotiated compromise. Basu Ghosh has agreed to this proposal but has not withdrawn his proposed resolution from consideration in the meantime. The women's ministry has responded with a petition drive giving the general devotee community an opportunity to register its opposition to Basu Gosh's proposal.

 

Please email your comments, whether pro or con, to your local GBC representative before he or she leaves for the Mayapura meetings. Chakra would also welcome copies of these comments, particularly if you allow us to post your letter. Due to the anticipated volume of responses, we do not expect to be able to post every letter, but we will post a selection of viewpoints.

 

 

--

 

(The following is to be presented at the 2005 GBC Meetings in Mayapura)

 

Basu Ghosh's proposal:

 

Whereas the Women In ISKCON resolution of 2000 (Section 500: Holy places and spiritual communities) contains language that is ambiguous and misleading, suggesting that the GBC and the senior leaders of ISKCON constitute the party responsible for the care and protection of women in ISKCON, in contradiction to Srila Prabhupada's many statements explaining that the male members within individual families, namely father, husband and grown up sons, are specifically charged with that responsibility, and

 

Whereas the action order of that resolution to provide equal facilities etc has the implication of the creation of a welfare system or a guarantee of rights for women in ISKCON, in contradiction to statements by Srila Prabhupada that are critical of welfare systems and of governments granting rights to any group, and

 

Whereas the resolution uses language affirming the principle of gender equality or gender blindness which, from a study of Srila Prabhupada's writings and statements can be construed to support the principle of women's independence, and

 

Whereas equal rights or equality for women, social and/or political, leading to women's independence, stands contrary to Srila Prabhupada's instructions on the care and protection of women in ISKCON,

 

Therefore it is resolved that:

 

The Women In ISKCON resolution (Section 500. Holy places and spiritual communities) shall be suspended pending a review and revision to correct the shortcomings as indicated above before submission to the GBC body for a vote to reinstate it in an amended form.

 

Explanation:

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

1) What prompts you to submit this proposal?

 

There are obvious ambiguities and implications within the resolution which in various ways misrepresent Srila Prabhupada's guidance for the care and protection of women. Since the resolution was hastily proposed and passed into law by the GBC without going through the normal process of subcommittee etc, it contains flaws due to oversight and requires more time and consideration to be reworded.

 

2) Why this proposal is important for the success of ISKCON?

 

a) All ambiguity of the present resolution can be removed and replaced by language taken from Prabhupada's own writings that defines exactly what ISKCON's position is regarding its women members.

 

b) All legal liability and obligations to women and to any group will be controlled. This is particularly relevant to the growing question of ISKCON's treatment of gays and lesbians who may seek to take advantage of any apparent 'equal rights' laws in ISKCON's constitution.

 

c) There will be conformity to Srila Prabhupada's instructions on the care and protection of women in ISKCON with respect to the great difference of attitudes towards and treatment of women found in various countries of the world.

 

d) The final draft of this resolution that is accepted by all or at least by a huge majority will help to mend a perceptible conservative/liberal rift in ISKCON.

 

3) What would be the implications of implementing this proposal?

 

The GBC will now have the opportunity to take more time to consider the huge implications of writing laws that affect the personal lives of all ISKCON devotees.

 

It must be remembered that following the Women's Presentation at the 2000 GBC meeting there was absolutely no discussion whatsoever about the causes and origins of women's abuse in ISKCON and the proper means to prevent it from reoccurring. The resolution in question was the only tangible outcome and was accepted blindly in a matter of minutes without proper examination.

 

4) How do you see yourself contributing to the implementation?

 

A number of concerned devotees in good standing are willing to contribute to a discussion which will produce an amended resolution which addresses all of the above concerns.

 

 

--

 

The Original Resolution: Women in ISKCON

 

WHEREAS, the Women's Ministry presentation on March 1st, 2000 to the GBC Body brought a clearer understanding of the mistakes of the past and the need to provide equal and full opportunity for devotional service for all devotees in ISKCON, regardless of gender, and

 

WHEREAS, it is clearly following in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that all people are welcome to join Lord Caitanya's sankirtana movement and are capable of developing full love of God, and

 

WHEREAS, it is our belief that many of the social issues that confront us are exacerbated because the voice of our women, who are the mothers and daughters of our Krsna conscious family, have been hushed and stifled due to misinterpretation of our Vaisnava philosophy, and thus the human and interpersonal needs of our devotees have been minimized,

 

Therefore be it resolved that:

 

501 [sTATEMENT] 1. The members of the Governing Body Commission of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness offer their humble apologies to the women of Srila Prabhupada's society who, because of our own shortcomings and those of the Society, have suffered due to a lack of protection, support, facility and appreciation for their service, devotion and vast contributions to the Society, and

 

[ACTION] 2. All GBC Body members and other leaders shall hold istagosthis in each of their respective temples to establish the priority of providing equal facilities, full encouragement and genuine care and protection for the women members of ISKCON. Also, separate meetings should be held with the leaders and women of each temple to address the women's needs and concerns, and

 

[GUIDELINE] 3. All GBC Zonal Secretaries, Temple Presidents and other leaders are requested, in coordination with the Women's Ministry, to invite senior devotee women, especially Srila Prabhupada's direct disciples, to visit their temples to provide their association and thus help in training younger devotees.

 

Women's Participation -- 618 [LAW]

A. All ISKCON temples are to allow all qualified devotees, regardless of gender, to speak on Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, etc. during the regular temple class.

B. All ISKCON temples designate half of the temple room area, divided in the center from the altar, for the ladies.

C. If the management in a particular temple feels it is unable to implement these proposals, the Executive Committee will appoint a small team of senior devotees, including women, to sensitively review the particular local situation.

 

[Kulapavana]

"One GBC member has agreed to sponsor Basu Ghosh das's proposed resolution, so it will likely come to a vote at this year's Mayapura meetings."

 

who's the genius?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

I would like to ask what is the connection between being a Vaishnava and System of Varnasrama.

[Kulapavana]

Vaishnava can come from any varna. Varna is a designation of body, and material nature. Vaishnava is a designation of heart - our spiritual nature.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna once again.

Thank you very much for your suggestion on how to respond to their questioning me prabhu. But, you see, the point that I am trying to point out is that I am only 17. I moved to this country ( a Westen Island ) when I was 10. In my homeland, devotees stayed in our house, and over 4 maharajs had come there. My uncle is an iskcon brahman and has been temple president in 2 different countries. As you can see, I do not think that I come from a karmi background, so how is it correct to misuse this word.

 

If iskcon is going to continue, it is the YOUNGER GENERATION who hold the key. If we are not taught at an early age how to respectfully approach service than it is simply a waste of time. The only reason why I have stayed a devotee through thick and thin is due to rolemodels. All the devotees I have associated with, I look up because I always hope to serve the Lord in such a blissful way. But when the HEAD PUJARI told me that we cannot be rolemodels, I was flabbergasted. I understand that ew are all human and thus subject to make mistakes, BUT should there not be certain lines or standards which we choose to not to fall below. The only reason why I was mistreated was because the HEAD PUJARI'S WIFE was one of the people I saw taking something from the lord's plate in a plastic bag for herself. I think that such actions are disgusting and in no way an example for which others should follow.

I may only be a youth, but I am not that naive. Being able to spot out certain matters which are not right should be extremely difficult, especially in the deity kitchen. But when you see such things as people stealing prasad from lord's plates before they're washed, taking money from temple donations, mistreating guests and EVEN temple devotees eating in dining hall before asking a MAHARAJ if he would like some prasad. I think that we desperately GBC to step in, or some regional officer, as we do not have one. Is it worth writing a letter to GBC ???

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

You are at start of spiritual life, but you must know these people are in their constitutional position. Some how they are serving Krishna. Some how you are also serving. We all serve. Those of us who serve Maya. Those of us who serve Krsna.

 

The Blessed Lord said: The renunciation of work and work in devotion are both good for liberation. But, of the two, work in devotional service is better than renunciation of works.Bg.5.2 [read Purport]

 

In the Purport it says to love Krishna. To get out of the entanglement of material existence. Krishna really likes humble people because Krishna Himself is always also humble.

 

We are product of Kali-yuga. This is the actual fact. We act according to the body we have.

 

Even though I can hardly get one round of Japa done. I am advising you to chant Hare Krishna. The Mantra is not a material sound vibration. You can actually drink it. It's like a Nectar pot. If you don't taste it, then beg to your Lordships. Sri Sri Gaura-Nitai! This is the only real thing in this World. So why you should not cry for it?

 

I am sorry but if you were expecting magical solution. I feel this in the only way. Hare Krishna.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna Prabhu.

 

Once again, thankyou for your words. They are really meaningful as I now see that sooner or later karma will catch up with those person/s and that I will continue my service regardless of what others say.

[Guest guest]

 

In his proposal, Basu Ghosh Prabhu implies that there is NO RESPONSIBILITY ON BEHALF OF ISKCON for the treatment of women who surrendered their lives to Iskcon temples and Iskcon gurus, because SP stated that a woman is always dependent, initially on her father, then husband, then her grown son. Actually, the main religious principle here (one of women's dependency) applies to Iskcon as well. Were these women not living under Iskcon's roof? Were they not serving Iskcon? Of course they were... Using such guru-quoting word jugglery by Basu Ghosh to cover up Iskcon's rightful responsibility is obviously CHEATING, and would not hold up in any court of law.

 

 

I think all Basu Ghosh is saying is that the responsibility for protection should be on husbands, sons, men, etc for women. If ISKCON is made to be the responsible party, then men will shift their responsibilities onto ISKCON. And women who get abused will blame ISKCON (and sue ISKCON, thus robbing us of temples to go worship in), rather than sueing the actional responsible party (their specific abusers).

 

 

If people like Basu Ghosh were really concerned about following Srila Prabhupada's orders in social sense, they would have implemented his last order to establish varnashrama dharma system in our Society.

 

 

That is a very unfair remark. I could also say the same about you. For all your talk about varnasrama dharma, why have you not implemented it yet? What is keeping you?

 

No one person can implement such sweeping social changes. It's important, but simply because you have misunderstood Basu's intent, don't blame him on other issues that are not even his fault.

 

Basu Ghosh is getting a lot of flak over this, from people who want to see his resolution as the product of male chauvinism when in fact he is trying to restore a sense of responsibility to ISKCON householder men (which has been sadly lacking in many cases). Very few people are actually reading that resolution, or even asking Basu what he means.

 

 

A brahmani woman has more right to give class in the temple than a sudra man.

 

 

Frankly, I have met very few brahmanis or brahmanas in ISKCON. But I have met a lot of people who think homosexual marriages are in line with dharma, who think that pants and shorts are cool from a Vedic culture standpoint, and who think that Srila PRabhupada was influenced by his backward, 19th century Indian upbringing. Frankly, I don't think people like that should be giving any class in the temple room, man or woman.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

GHQ member tries to turn back the clock on women's rights

by the Chakra editorial team

 

 

I just want to point out that Chakra's publicity is very one-sided and biased in favor of many liberal and non-Vedic ideas.

 

Please don't insult your intelligence by thinking Chakra is reporting these matters accurately. Chakra has an agenda, and that agenda is to sterilize ISKCON of all Vedic influence.

 

Chakra's editor, Maria Ekstrand (aka Madhusudani Radha) is a seasoned blasphemer of Vaishnavas and an ignorant fanatic. She once said on the PAMHO forum, "Lord Rama is on my sh*t list for what he did to Sita."

 

When you consider this mentality, as well as the fact that nothing gets approved on Chakra without her explicit consent, then you must realize that Chakra is basically a tool to serve her atheistic agenda. You can be quite certain that anything you read on her blog represents only one side of the story, and is quite likely not accurate.

 

Just a friendly warning.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"I think all Basu Ghosh is saying is that the responsibility for protection should be on husbands, sons, men, etc for women. If ISKCON is made to be the responsible party, then men will shift their responsibilities onto ISKCON."

 

so, who is responsible for an unmarried woman living in the temple without and adult son? her father? that is about as absurd as it gets.... that is what I had in mind.

 

"For all your talk about varnasrama dharma, why have you not implemented it yet? What is keeping you?"

 

I live in a rural community of devotees where I do what I can to implement these principles. I have declared myself a kshatriya many years ago and I try to live my life accordingly. I also try to raise awareness of these issues among devotees while giving class or on the internet.

 

I have no position or power in Iskcon, so I have no other way to push this issue forward.

 

Is that enough? Maybe not, but that is all I can do at the present moment.

 

[Guest guest]

 

so, who is responsible for an unmarried woman living in the temple without and adult son? her father? that is about as absurd as it gets.... that is what I had in mind

 

 

dharma-shAstra-s are clear that this responsibility falls upon a woman's parents. However, I am not disputing the possibility of protection for unmarried women since ISKCON sort of serves as a surrogate parent. You have to understand the historical context of the resolution. The women's rights campaign follows a long history of battered women in abusive ISKCON marriages. The point is that the abusers should be the ones who are held responsible, not the entire society.

 

Just think about it for a second. You might be going to an ISKCON temple just to worship, not really knowing what is going on in the dark. Then suddenly, the temple can disappear because the entire society is put on trial because a married lady claims ISKCON did not protect her from her abusive husband. Suddenly, you have no temple to go to because of a rascal's misdeeds, and the actual rascal gets off scott-free, because ISKCON is responsible. This is the nightmare Basu's resolution was intended to prevent.

 

 

I live in a rural community of devotees where I do what I can to implement these principles. I have declared myself a kshatriya many years ago and I try to live my life accordingly. I also try to raise awareness of these issues among devotees while giving class or on the internet.

 

I have no position or power in Iskcon, so I have no other way to push this issue forward.

 

Is that enough? Maybe not, but that is all I can do at the present moment.

 

 

 

You cannot declare yourself to be anything in the varnashrama system. I thought that was obvious. I am curious as to what you think you know about varnashrama.

 

Anyway, as I said before, your criticisms of Basu Ghosh are simply unfair. Srila Prabhupada could not establish varnashrama despite his unparalleled devotional credentials. How can any one man do it?

 

This is especially the case because Basu Ghosh is a conservative, and as far as ISKCON goes, this means he has no power. In ISKCON, the amount of respect and attention you get is inversely proportional to what you actually know. Basu Ghosh has been a tireless advocate of tradition and varnashrama, and I find it ironic that you so casually attack him despite your stated interest in establishing varnashrama. It seems like all you ever do is rail on everyone for not having made this a reality, but you are not above attacking the very people who could make it a reality if they were given the power and respect to do so.

 

You can't establish dharma by attacking the only people who stand up for it. If dharmic folks aren't bright enough to realize who is on their side in the first place, then ISKCON deserves to remain in the current standard of mleccha culture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"You have to understand the historical context of the resolution. The women's rights campaign follows a long history of battered women in abusive ISKCON marriages."

 

I joined in 1979, and I know the "historical context" first hand. Your claim, that the problem with women abuse in our society was limited to marriages, is completely bogus! I can give you scores of cases where unmarried sankirtan women were abused by their "leaders".

 

"Then suddenly, the temple can disappear because the entire society is put on trial because a married lady claims ISKCON did not protect her from her abusive husband."

 

our society is already on trial, and it has to do with mostly men abusing children.

 

our society is in danger because there is no accountability among our leaders. it is very nice to sit on the throne and live like a king, but where is kingly sense of responsibility for the kingdom? kings who hide their personal responsibility behind the excuse of ignorance are simply sudras.

 

"You cannot declare yourself to be anything in the varnashrama system. I thought that was obvious."

 

and why not? who are you to lecture on such things? you don't even have the courage to state your name, let alone your varna. I am a real person, both here and in real life, and I stand behind my words 100%. You dont have to accept my word that I'm a kshatriya - but you can judge me by my qualifications. Those who know me, agree with that declaration.

 

as to my knowledge of varnashrama dharma: read my posts and make a call.

 

 

[Kulapavana]

and btw: since when is Iskcon following dharma shastra? they could start by having their sannyasis live like sannyasis, and not royalty.

[Guest guest]

 

I joined in 1979, and I know the "historical context" first hand. Your claim, that the problem with women abuse in our society was limited to marriages, is completely bogus! I can give you scores of cases where unmarried sankirtan women were abused by their "leaders".

 

 

I did not claim that the problem was limited to marriages. I said that the resolution was inspired by bad marriages.

 

Please put aside your hostility and understand me properly. There is no point in knocking down a strawman.

 

 

"Then suddenly, the temple can disappear because the entire society is put on trial because a married lady claims ISKCON did not protect her from her abusive husband."

 

our society is already on trial, and it has to do with mostly men abusing children.

 

 

Precisely my point - the entire society (and those who benefit from it) should not suffer for the sins of a few. Rather, the sinners should be punished.

 

 

our society is in danger because there is no accountability among our leaders. it is very nice to sit on the throne and live like a king, but where is kingly sense of responsibility for the kingdom? kings who hide their personal responsibility behind the excuse of ignorance are simply sudras.

 

 

 

I agree that sannyasis should live like sannyasis. This is another problem. However, this was not the purport of this thread, which was in regards to who is responsible for protection of women in ISKCON.

 

I feel sorry for Basu Ghosh. He is trying to do something worthwhile and in the end he just gets painted as a chauvinist or an upholder of the adharmic status quo by opportunistic and small-minded individuals. It's things like this that make me feel that ISKCON does not deserve dharma. Why help ISKCON if you are just going to be attacked for it?

 

Oh, and you can't just declare your varna in the varnashrama system. Such a thing is not a feature of varnashrama.

[Kulapavana]

------------------

"I feel sorry for Basu Ghosh. He is trying to do something worthwhile and in the end he just gets painted as a chauvinist or an upholder of the adharmic status quo by opportunistic and small-minded individuals. It's things like this that make me feel that ISKCON does not deserve dharma."

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you should feel sorry for him, because he became the poster boy of the old chauvinism. if you are going to make a proposal in such a loaded issue: DO IT RIGHT! good intentions are dime a dozen.

 

and Iskcon deserves what it gets - just like you and me. there are no free rides out here.

 

 

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"you can't just declare your varna in the varnashrama system. Such a thing is not a feature of varnashrama"

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just curious then (genuine curiosity!): how would you do it today, in the present context?

 

sure, just your own declaration of varna is cheap: so many vaishyas think and pretend they are brahmanas while they keep making money from this business of spirituality. but you can certainly challenge them based on their declaration - without such declaration, there can be no challenge.

 

 

Anyway, I can see you are sincere in your interest to help Iskcon - just as I am- and I apologize if my words or tone offended you. Dandabats pranam! However, that does not change my position on the above referenced issues. and it would help if you had a name, even a fake one, so that we could communicate better in the future. Hare Krishna!

[Kulapavana]

I take your lack of reply to my direct question as another sign that talking to unnamed guests here is mostly a waste of time...

[Guest guest]

A true Kshatriya controls his anger. Or, it might affect his mental balance, and when he's thus lost, cannot fight righteous battles.

[Kulapavana]

he he... anger? lol! where do you see anger? it's more like sadness... or pity...

 

are these feelings permissible for a kshatriya? /images/graemlins/wink.gif