Mormon visitation

[AncientMariner]

I got visited by some Mormon missionaries today. I listened to their presentation and basically what I got out of it is that their church is the one real church of Christ and that Joseph Smith is the prophet of this age to restore God's kingdom on Earth. I get the feeling that the initial stages of Mormonism is trying to convince you that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God. I also get the feeling that if you have any doubts about this that is the point where you are viewed as not having been revealed the truth. I respect them and admire their ability to preach to atheists etc. and no offense to Joseph Smith but I have seen nothing from this religion that proves to me that Joseph Smith has anywhere near the level of knowledge of God that Srila Prabhupada has. At least Srila Prabhupada gives you the option of surrendering to God whereas it seems to me Mormonism is trying to get you to surrender to their religion or to Joseph Smith.

[theist]

Strikes me as demogod worship with the followers wanting to someday take the position of a Lord Brahma for themselves.

[AncientMariner]

They are coming back over Tuesday night. I told them I would read their information but now I got to figure out a way to let them know I am not interested without tearing down their faith. From the looks of it if you choose not to be indoctinated you are rejecting Joseph Smith as a prophet. They used a lot of rhetoric about how the world rejected the disciples of Jesus and somehow equate that to rejecting Joseph Smith as being the same thing. I gotta admit this is strange stuff to me. I don't see how wether Joseph Smith is a prophet or not has much to do with a person's relationship to Christ in the first place.

 

I thought about bringing up Krishna and Krishna Consciousness to them but I get the sense they probably wouldn't be open minded to it because apparently they are already feel they are the one true church just like every other branch of Christianity on the face of the Earth thinks they are the one true church.

[Gauracandra]

I think Mormons are pious people. They preach 3 of the 4 regulative principles (no intoxication, no gambling, no illicit sex) though they do eat meat. Everything I've read of their philosophy though is very materialistic but in a pious way. By this I mean its very embodied. You are fundamentally your body. God is basically a person with a body with DNA. He is not all knowing, or all powerful, just more knowing and more powerful than you. The universe is here for us to manipulate and create. And this can be very positive - so I call it pious materialism. Its about building a nice home, a good family, climbing the spiritual corporate ladder. I don't see any devotion though.

 

As for approaches, I've used two. The first is just to be real straight with them. Its best to do this first time out, rather than on the second visit. I told two before saying "Look. I'm a Hare Krishna. I respect you guys for living a pious life, but honestly I'm not going to convert." And that did it.

 

The other approach I've used on Jehovah Witnesses. Basically I bring up another Christian denomination and praise them. You see all these Christian denominations really don't like each other. Its kind of weird but understandable. Each says they are the only way. So with Jehovah Witnesses I usually say "I really like Seventh Day Adventists. They are vegetarian and I'm vegetarian." Then I point to their picture of heaven, where the lion is sitting with the lamb and I say "Is that heaven?YesWas Eden like heaven?YesSo the lion wasn't eating the lamb?Correct. He ate the herbs of the land.So wasn't Adam & Eve vegetarian?" And then start preaching vegetarianism, how the Seventh Day Adventists have that part correct etc.... Usually they leave me alone pretty quick.

 

So you can bring up other religions, vegetarianism, or even question their philosophy. For instance, ask if God is all knowing and all powerful. Ask if he is embodied. Even get straight to the point and ask if the goal of Mormonism is to become our own gods of our own planets an universes. I did this last one to a Mormon co-worker and just quickly said "Doesn't the Bible say "Thou shalt have no other gods before me?" The guy stammered around a bit, I didn't want to embarass him so I just dropped it.

[AncientMariner]

Thanks for the help.

[theist]

they are pious and polite. Also one of their books says one can eat a little meat but only in winter time. I have forgotten the referrence. Remember these folks came west in the olden days. But most ignore that instruction these days. I'll try to remember. Something says it was in Doctrines and Covenants but now I am not even sure if that book belongs to the Mormons or some other group.

 

I was approached by some very nice Jehovah Witnesses yesterday. I always try to pull it around to we are not these bodies. Then we talked about if animals had souls or not. I asked one who has a pet dog if she thought that when she looked in her dog's eyes if anyone was lookinbg back or not? That surprised her and made her nervously chuckle and she said no. That was easy to disprove.

 

The problem is all these groups have the same problem. The Bible doesn't give explict instructions on who we are, who is God, what is this universe and what is our relationship to God and the universe. This leaves the conditioned mind to fill in the blanks which we all know it is very willing to do.

 

They were also talking about how God is going to make eternal flesh bodies for us that never decay and we will live eternally right on this earth. Kind of like an eternal picnic with no mosquitos. They showed me one of their pictures which they like to do ,of contented people and animals in a grassy field somewhere all at peace. I ask "where is God" and they said "oh God is somewhere else, but we can't live with Him".

 

Therein lies the difference. Gaudiya Vaisnavas are teaching that not only can we live with God but we can jump on His back in sport.

 

These encounters should deepen our appredciation for what Prabhupada and others are trying to give us.

[krsna]

 

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[gHari]

Twelve million follow the Mormon Church of Latter-Day Saints. Here is a report including video:

 

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_2_frontlineamericanexperiencethemormons_2008-02-12

[CCC]

 

Twelve million follow the Mormon Church of Latter-Day Saints. Here is a report including video:

 

http://www.pbs.org/mormons/?campaign=pbshomefeatures_2_frontlineamericanexperiencethemormons_2008-02-12

 

 

 

they are comming to my house, anD I live in front of them also they are comming all weeks, it is getting annoying and they know my name!

[CCC]

 

 

 

even we could kick Him out of love!

[gHari]

Our friend, Gauracandra got into this some time ago in this thread:

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/28687-king-folletts-discourse-joseph-smith.html

[Samia]

 

they are pious and polite. Also one of their books says one can eat a little meat but only in winter time. I have forgotten the referrence. Remember these folks came west in the olden days. But most ignore that instruction these days. I'll try to remember. Something says it was in Doctrines and Covenants but now I am not even sure if that book belongs to the Mormons or some other group.

 

I was approached by some very nice Jehovah Witnesses yesterday. I always try to pull it around to we are not these bodies. Then we talked about if animals had souls or not. I asked one who has a pet dog if she thought that when she looked in her dog's eyes if anyone was lookinbg back or not? That surprised her and made her nervously chuckle and she said no. That was easy to disprove.

 

The problem is all these groups have the same problem. The Bible doesn't give explict instructions on who we are, who is God, what is this universe and what is our relationship to God and the universe. This leaves the conditioned mind to fill in the blanks which we all know it is very willing to do.

 

They were also talking about how God is going to make eternal flesh bodies for us that never decay and we will live eternally right on this earth. Kind of like an eternal picnic with no mosquitos. They showed me one of their pictures which they like to do ,of contented people and animals in a grassy field somewhere all at peace. I ask "where is God" and they said "oh God is somewhere else, but we can't live with Him".

 

Therein lies the difference. Gaudiya Vaisnavas are teaching that not only can we live with God but we can jump on His back in sport.

 

These encounters should deepen our appredciation for what Prabhupada and others are trying to give us.

 

Well read theist, not really a suprise as you posts contain such a widespread base of wisdom. It is correct that the Doctrine and Covenants is the source of this I did a quick google ( embarassing as I was once baptised into the church due to my Uncles family being hardcore, His wife is a descendant of One of the original families and that whole side of the family is BYU grads.. ) The verse is discussed in this link http://www.askgramps.org/why-according-to-doctrine-and-covenants-section-89-are/

 

As far as your concern AncientMariner I would stick with the straight forward approach. Just be honest with them and thank them for providing you with their literature.

[Kulapavana]

 

I respect them and admire their ability to preach to atheists etc. and no offense to Joseph Smith but I have seen nothing from this religion that proves to me that Joseph Smith has anywhere near the level of knowledge of God that Srila Prabhupada has. At least Srila Prabhupada gives you the option of surrendering to God whereas it seems to me Mormonism is trying to get you to surrender to their religion or to Joseph Smith.

 

Joseph Smith and other high level Freemasons developed their doctrine and their church on orders from their Lodge. This religion is (and has always been) merely a tool in the hands of secret organizations controlling this world. Living a very moral life is very nice but does not translate into spirituality. Neither is trying to become god who rules his own universe. It is merely just another kaitava-dharma, cheating religion.

[sopatel]

anyone live in the midwest...its basically the Bible belt and so many people come from all denominations of Christianity to tell you what there church has to offer...as theistji said...Jehovah's witnesses had a nice conversation with us and sat down and had a cup of chai...lol...my father made a similar arguement about the soul and eating meat. But all in all they are nice and were family people so it was just a nice hour of controlled discussions abour Hinduism and Christianity...which I think they had a better understanding for many of our practices and I am glad about that because not many people can tolerate the Hindu religion in smaller midwest American towns.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

[theist]

sopatel,

 

So you live in the midwest. Nice approach to offer them some chai and congenial conversation. I become more and more convinced that to make friends with these people is far more important then debating philosophy or theolgy. Jehovah witnesses are very receptive to our emphasis on the Supreme Father Lord as being a separate individual than Jesus the Son. That is something they don't also get from fellow Christian types.

 

The evangelical brand of Christians are most often a different story so I just give them distance.

 

Have you followed the relationship Utah Iskcon has developed with the local Mormons in Salt Lake? It's amazing. The Mormons helped build the temple and attend events at the temple. I believe the presidents name is Caru das but I'm not sure. Really inspiring story.

[zjj]

 

sopatel,

 

So you live in the midwest. Nice approach to offer them some chai and congenial conversation. I become more and more convinced that to make friends with these people is far more important then debating philosophy or theolgy. Jehovah witnesses are very receptive to our emphasis on the Supreme Father Lord as being a separate individual than Jesus the Son. That is something they don't also get from fellow Christian types.

 

The evangelical brand of Christians are most often a different story so I just give them distance.

 

Have you followed the relationship Utah Iskcon has developed with the local Mormons in Salt Lake? It's amazing. The Mormons helped build the temple and attend events at the temple. I believe the presidents name is Caru das but I'm not sure. Really inspiring story.

 

Theist, you're right. The Iskcon temple in Utah is so beautiful. When I saw the gorgeous deities I was struck dumb and so thankful that I'd had a chance to take darshan there. The temple there has developed a truly awesome relationship with the local people and it is because they have focused on the similarities between the two faiths, not the differences. That's a much more constructive way of relating to people.

 

I met a Mormon lady while traveling in Atlanta. We had a two hour long conversation about the similarities in our beliefs and she ended up telling me things she never told others because she felt that I would understand. We parted by saying that we respected each other's beliefs and wished the best for each other.

 

I did a couple of book signings in Utah (my novel is based on the life story of Mirabai) and sold many books there. I had a great time meeting those people and discussing philosophy with them.

 

We had some Jehovah's Witnesses come to our house and my father answered the door. I was listening from my bedroom upstairs and groaned when I heard the man ask my father "have you heard of the Kingdom of God?" My father replied: "Yes, it's called Ram Rajya." The man stuttered and asked what that meant so my father explained who Lord Ram was and why he came to earth. He explained that if we were all devotees and lived lives of Bhakti then our time on this earth would become Rama Rajya and the Lord would be pleased. Then my father ended by saying "Jai Shri Rama!" The Jehovah's witness was stunned and asked what that meant. My father said that it meant "Praise Lord Rama!" and taught the man how to correctly pronounce the words. The man thanked my father for explaining all of that and left us saying "Jai Shri Rama".

 

Ancient Mariner, I think that the best way is for you to be honest about what you believe and thank them for showing you their literature. Who knows, maybe Krishna led them to you so that they could learn a little about Him through you.

 

Haribol!

 

Jai

[theist]

 

Theist, you're right. The Iskcon temple in Utah is so beautiful. When I saw the gorgeous deities I was struck dumb and so thankful that I'd had a chance to take darshan there. The temple there has developed a truly awesome relationship with the local people and it is because they have focused on the similarities between the two faiths, not the differences. That's a much more constructive way of relating to people.

 

Amen.

[theist]

Another reason Moromons could be attracted to Krsna is that they are famous for loving to dance. Formal dance instruction is rated high on the education ladder by Mormons. I just learned this from a recent PBS series on the history of Mormons.

 

That makes Krsna attractive to them right away as they learn He is the Greatest Dancer and the highest rasa with other living beings has dance as a major event.

 

Couple that with Krsna being the Supreme Polygamist and hey, how could they fail not to admire Him.

 

I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

If Nietzche only knew.

 

[sopatel]

 

sopatel,

 

The evangelical brand of Christians are most often a different story so I just give them distance.

 

Have you followed the relationship Utah Iskcon has developed with the local Mormons in Salt Lake? It's amazing. The Mormons helped build the temple and attend events at the temple. I believe the presidents name is Caru das but I'm not sure. Really inspiring story.

 

No theistji,

I never heard of this even, I guess I need to do more research...if you have any sources for me to look at please pass them on. I would appreciate it.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

[theist]

Haribol sopatel,

 

I did a Google search on the words utah mormons krishna caru and this page came up with many many links. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Utah+mormons+krishna+caru&btnG=Google+Search

 

The Mormons donated 25,000 dollars to the construction of the Krishna temple among other support.

 

I am so impressed with Caru das and his wife Vaibhavi dasi for this work. I have never met them but can appreciate a wonderful example when I see one.

[sopatel]

thank u so much....

 

Jai Shri Krishna

[theist]

Happy to be of some service sopatel.

[shiva]

Mormons have always been friendly to devotees and easy to talk to about Krishna consciousness. Back in the late 1970's I was in the Salt Lake City temple for a few months (Narasingha Swami's co-leader of his ashram - B.B. Vishnu Swami, was a book distributor there, back then he was known as Bhavananda Raya Dasa), the temple was a big house not far from downtown. We had I think 3 or 4 devotees, it was a satellite temple and never developed due to Ramesvara Swami thinking that Salt Lake City wasn't worth putting manpower into. It was well known that the airport there was a great place to sell books to young mormons flying out to their missions. Mormons were known to be easy to preach to, and easy to sell books to, they have always been very receptive to devotees. I think it is for a few reasons. They have similar views about sex, drugs, and mundane society that most devotees have. They have a feeling of being outsiders in american society and they see a kinship with devotees in that regard. And they seem to have a genuine interest in Indian religion and culture. I also worked with Caru Dasa back in the 70's when he was running the festival of India programs, along with Maduha Dasa, who did most of the actual physical work.

[AncientMariner]

Mormonism is always a difficult subject because one of my best friends married a Mormon woman and I have read a lot of evidence that Joseph Smith was basically a fraud. So it is a difficult thing because I personally don't want anything to do with the Mormon Church but at the same time I want to be respectful. I haven't seen much of my friend since I told him that I believe in Jesus but don't see any need to include Joseph Smith in that relationship. My friend is a great person so I know he will be fine.

[meenakshiamman]

 

Basically I bring up another Christian denomination and praise them. You see all these Christian denominations really don't like each other.

This is so true. I grew up attending Fundamentalist/Baptist owned Christian schools and we spent great lengths of time in our history classes, dwelling on the Foxe's Book of Martyrs and how Catholics are/were evil.

 

A big problem with Fundamentalists however, and other denominations of Christianity in general...is the Bible. At least their version of it.

The Bible as we know it is incomplete, has been tampered with and is in need of some subtractions and additions of a few books.

Also the idea that every word is completely "innerent" and should be taken without question at face value is another issue.

 

Large parts of Christianity have become a cult for a book instead of faith in God and attaining spirituality.