Hridayananda maharaja's latest article

[Guest guest]

Does anyone here know if that email supposedly from Bhavs is genuine?

 

-m.das

[Guest guest]

Define genuine!

This is the massive dilemna that this society is facing. Accept all those fallen souls in the Name of Nityananda Prabhu or give them a taste of their own source. (MERCY)

We may all be sinful souls but there comes a time for repentance, where we must seriously atone for our transgressions, if not, No Entry. And if so they should remain in a menial service role.

Of course this kind of sahajiya behaviour will never enter the real heart of Krsna and would be disgusting in the eyes of Srila Prabhupad. But institutions have a way of becoming dependent on these kind of entrepreneurs, their energy is generally passionate and full of subtle illusions that the blind neophytes never see, they're entertaining in a sick sense. There is a saying we get the governments we deserve and it also applies to gurus too.

All I can hope is that the sincere seekers are finding alternative Guru vargas to follow and in turn find the inner fullfillment Krsna is offering to us all.

 

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krsna! I found Maharaja's article extremely well-written and intelligent. For once, some of the more intelligent members of ISKCON are considering this issue fairly and rationally, as many other mathas are now doing.

[Kulapavana]

actually this is all extremely sad... such low class people pretending to be advanced devotees, and so many people who buy their show... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[theist]

The old saying 'while the cats away the mice may play, never seemed more apropo. In this case they figure the cat won't return at all so the whole place is their's to do with what they please.

 

The cat of course is Srila Prabhupada whose presence keep the mice behind the walls.

 

The reality is that the cat never left and his presence remains. But out of sight, out of mind I guess. Those with spiritual sight in Iskcon however I am sure still see and feel Srila Prabhupada presence's and guidance and would have his Iskcon maintained in line with his will, which on this subject is not in the least bit of doubt.

 

I expect those that call Srila Prabhupada father or grandfather, and mean it, will stand in opposition to this anti-Prabhupada pro-homosexual movement in his Iskcon.Perhaps its figured that all those have long since been driven away. We will soon see. Perhaps enough remain to shout down this insanity.

 

Ever pot washer and stoolroom mopper has an stake in this.Those holding external power positions are not the only voices that have a right to be heard. Remember where you who lead in 1978. Remember how your silent acquiesence and in some cases gullibilty played a role in that fiasco. Don't make that mistake again. Time to speak out prabhus.

[Guest guest]

"Remember how your silent acquiesence and in some cases gullibilty played a role in that fiasco. Don't make that mistake again. Time to speak out prabhus. "

 

spirituality is not democratic, if iskcon leaders and members do not surrender to pure devotees, do not go to more expert vaishnavas to ask advice, now we see such mistake, very soon weìll see some other one..

 

conditionated souls are victim to the kali yuga corruption, there's no escape.. who has prabhupada in the heart, who feels prabhupada's presence.. he follow his instruction in being under the shelter of a present living uttama adhikari spiritual master.

 

To feel prabhupada means to feel the necessity to follow him and to search for guidance in someone who is now incarnating the principle of the eternal spiritual master as prabhupada did..

 

or..

 

if simply i am happy to remember prabhupada without taking another guidance.. i am not following prabhupada, that could be a new western thing, like following jesus christ even if he's gone in spiritual world 2000 years ago, but it is against any vaishnava principle..

 

that's the reason why in ISKCON devotees have to suffer for such unqulified leadership.. prabhupada praised but not followed

[Madhumangala]

I think you need to look up the term "vaisnava-aparadha".

You need to chant more and stop making these offences and being overly obsessed with other people's sex-life. Your only delaying your own spiritual progress...

 

Offenses to the Vaisnava

Vaisnava-aparadha, or offense to a Vaisnava, is called "the mad elephant offense."

 

Offences mentioned in Hari Bhakti Vilasa

1. To make fun of a devotee

2. To kick or hit a devotee

3. To criticise a devotee

4. To anger or become angry at a devotee

5. To envy a devotee (see also Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.11.23 purport)

6. To not be pleased to see a devotee

7. To disrespect a devotee

8. To not greet a devotee with obeisances

 

 

Four kinds of blasphemy of a devotee from Harinama Cintamani.

To criticise him because of :

1. His caste

2. Some unpremeditated accidental fall-down

3. The last traces of his previous sins

4. His sinful activities prior to his surrendering to Lord Krishna.

 

 

Examples of offenses from Prabhupada's Books:

1. To touch a Vaisnava with one's feet (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Antya 14.25 purport)

2. To disobey the spiritual master. The most grievous type of Vaisnava-aparadha is called guru-aparadha, offenses at the lotus feet of the spiritual master. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.21.37 purport)

3. To verbally chastise a devotee. E.g. When King Rahugana verbally chastised Jada Bharata, he committed a Vaisnava-aparadha. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.10.17 purport)

 

 

What are the consequences of committing offences?

Examples from Prabhupada's books:

 

Saubhari Muni (Srimad-Bhagavatam 9.6.49 purport) fell down because he committed an offense to a Vaisnava by impeding Garuda's plans for eating. Garuda wanted to eat a fish, but Saubhari Muni unnecessarily gave the fish shelter.

 

Gopal Cakravarti (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Antya 3.213 purport): Disagreeing with Haridasa Thakur's statements about the potency of the holy names, Gopal Cakravarti became angry and said that if it were not true, he would cut Haridasa's nose off. Three days later, Gopal's nose melted away from leprosy.

 

Ramacandra Puri (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Antya 8): Having criticized and offended his spiritual master, Ramacandra Puri developed a fault-finding mentality and material desire gradually appeared within him. He became so fallen that he even criticised Lord Caitanya.

 

 

The remedy for Vaisnava-aparadha:

 

A Vaisnava-aparadha cannot be atoned for by any means other than by begging the pardon of the offended Vaisnava.

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.26.24 purport)

 

If anyone offends a devotee in a moment of delusion or madness, he must fall at the devotee's feet and repent bitterly and, weeping and full of contrition, beg forgiveness. He should declare himself a fallen wretch, in need of that devotee's grace. A devotee is very merciful; his heart will soften and he will embrace the offender, thus exonerating him from his offenses. (Harinama Cintamani)

 

 

Examples from Prabhupada's books:

 

Sacimata (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 17.72 purport):Sacimata made an offense by accusing Advaita Acarya of persuading Visvarupa to take sannyasa. Thereafter, Lord Caitanya induced her to take the dust of Advaita Acarya's lotus feet, and thus she nullified her vaishnava-aparadha.

 

Durvasa Muni: (Srimad Bhagavatam) Even when Durvasa Muni took shelter directly of the lotus feet of the Lord, he could not be saved-only when he begged forgiveness at the feet of the devotee he had offended, Maharaja Ambarisa.

Gopal Capala (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 17.37-59): Being envious of Srivasa Thakura, Gopal Capala tried to defame him by placing the paraphernalia for worshiping Durga outside his door. Later, he was attacked by leprosy and suffered great pain. Seeing Lord Caitanya, he took shelter of His lotus feet and begged for His mercy, but Lord Caitanya only got angry. But then showing His mercy, Lord Caitanya instructed him to beg forgiveness from Srivasa. He then was saved.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Those are the same excuses given when Kirtanananda's actions were being questioned. "You're offending a great devotee..."

 

I think the real offense is to misrepresent Srila Prabhupada and his movement. They should go start their own movements and leave Srila Prabhupada out of their homosexual propaganda agendas. Does ISKCON really need someone like Bhavananda back in charge in Mayapur? It didn't work the first time, why try it again.

 

Here is another email that I received that seems to be on the same lines:

 

 

At present the GBC are considering urgent requests from the devotees in Montreal who are petitioning that Nitai Chand Prabhu be cleared of all allegations of child abuse in the past, and be allowed to become an initiating guru in ISKCON. (NCP was formerly a swami, and formerly the general manager of Mayapur where a lot of child abuse happened under his watch, and he is ALLEGEDLY implicated in some of this child abuse though to this day nobody has directly come forward to testify against him in public, the Indian resident "victims" say, out of fear that he may hire "gundas" to come after them.).

 

If you have any substantial opinion on this matter, or know of anything we don't know in regards to Nitai Chand Prabhu and his past behavior, please contact all of the below prabhus at your earliest convenience.

 

Thank you.

 

Manu dasa

on behalf of your servants at ISKCON Youth Ministry.

 

 

 

[Madhumangala]

Your free to make all the excuses you want for your position, condone it in any way you choose, but that still doesn't change sastra and the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, but I really doubt that someone who has no respect for sastra and Srila Prabhupada's nectar and calls it "the same old lines" would even understand the concept of vaisnava-aparadha. Keep it up, your only hurting yourself.

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. You have shown your true colors and your not worth any more of my time. Hare Krsna.

[theist]

of arrogance from one while lecturing on Vaisnava aparadha.

[Guest guest]

 

This is an important point. By considering gay marriage, I'm sure Hridayananda Maharaja is only trying to improve ISKCON as a service to Srila Prabhupada. To accuse him of offensive or ulterior motives isn't fair at all. He has no personal stake in representing the proper treatment of gay- and lesbian-embodied Vaishnavas. On the contrary, he is sticking his neck out to help improve our movement's all-inclusiveness and loving mood of acceptance.

 

This thread was originally started to discuss Hridayananda Maharaja's article. The topic of Bhavananda and accepting former child abusers back into the movement is an entirely different subject matter.

[Kulapavana]

let the top leadership in Iskcon follow it...

 

teach by example - and do not hide behind poorly understood philosophy.

[theist]

a couple questions guest. Please be honest. Considering Prabhupada's clear unequivical statements on the subject do you think Hridayananda or anyone else would make such a proposition in his presence and to him. Can you picture him coming before Srila Prabhupada's vapu manifestation and doing so?

 

In the absence of vapu why isn't vani enough?

[Kulapavana]

those lecturing others on vaishnava aparadha usually think it is only a one way street. do you know the story of Prajapati Daksha's sacrifice? the cursing and countercursing of the faithful but ignorant followers? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Guest guest]

 

Hare Krsna! Yes, I really do. I am also a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, first and second, and I would love to have had an opportunity to discuss this topic deeply with him, both then and now.

 

None of his (negative) statements on this topic are clear and unequivocal. First of all, they were only initial reactions to provocative news stories, made in private meetings with his heterosexual disciples who seem to have been prodding him on. None of these statements were made in serious or lengthy discussions with any of his gay disciples. In fact, when Srila Prabhupada did discuss this problem at length with one of his gay disciples (Upendra), Srila Prabhupada appears to have taken a much different position.

 

I definitely believe Srila Prabhupada would reconsider his position on gay marriage and third-gender devotees in general if he were here today and readdress this issue. He would want us to do this as a part of effective preaching. Otherwise, we are just espousing a type of frozen fundamentalism, unable to improve and adapt our Krsna conscious preaching.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Your free to make all the excuses you want for your position, condone in any way you choose, but that still doesn't change sastra and the instructions of Srila Prabhupada...

 

 

Funny you should speak of the instructions of Srila Prabhupada, because the GALVA members don't seem to regard his opinion as anything important. Srila Prabhupada says homosexuality is sinful, he says gay marriage is abominable and a sign of no religion ("just see. what kind of religion is that?").

 

Srila Prabhupada didn't change his views to suit the women's lib movement which was popular during his time, so it is clear he wouldn't change his views to attract the homosexual crowd as Hridayananda is suggesting we do.

 

 

This is an important point. By considering gay marriage, I'm sure Hridayananda Maharaja is only trying to improve ISKCON as a service to Srila Prabhupada. To accuse him of offensive or ulterior motives isn't fair at all.

 

 

And I'm sure Kirtanananda's adding Christian Choir music, the chanting of the mahamantra in english, and wearing of Christian robes was all pure devotion aimed at improving ISKCON. Srila Prabhupada said simply follow and do not change his teachings and everything will be successful.

 

Deviations and alterations cannot hide behind the vague accusation of vaishnava aparadha or the supposed purity of the person. If someone attempts to change the teachings of Srila Prabhupada he must be prepared to come under complete scrutiny, not hide cowardly behind claims that he is being offended and that he is highly advanced, unmotivated, etc.

 

 

In fact, when Srila Prabhupada did discuss this problem at length with one of his gay disciples (Upendra), Srila Prabhupada appears to have taken a much different position.

 

 

The typical lie about a supposed unrecorded conversation where Prabhupada goes completely against everything he said in his books and recordings. Prabhupada himself said don't believe what "Prabhupada said" unless it is in writing. But these people don't value Prabhupada's own instruction, they prefer to base everything on lies of an imaginary conversation where Prabhupada suddenly approved of gay relationships. Sure, believe whatever you want. You have an agenda and will say whatever you think will further your aim.

[Guest guest]

JNDas,

 

Do you know if that email supposedly sent by Bhavananda is genuine?

 

I find it extremely disturbing to think that the ISKCON leadership would allow Bhavanada to give lectures in Mayapura and be given recognition as a "leading devotee".

 

I would like to believe that ISKCON is a genuine spiritual organization but if the GBC allow Bhavananda to return to a leadership role I will have to say that I feel the GBC are fools who are lost in Maya. I want to believe that JPS and other leading devotees in ISKCON are good Vaishnavas, but how can I think that if Bhav's is sitting in Mayapura giving lectures to the ignorant and innocent?

 

 

[theist]

He is a good example actually. But not in the way these homosexual activists want to use him with this imaginary talk with Srila Prabhupada. He was Prabhupada's personal servant for some time. He had these mixed feelings at that time and still Prabhupada accepted and valued his service very much. So how does the homosexual lobby claim a need for recognized marriages as a way to advancement and not getting them as a hinderance to Krsna consciousness? It wasn't for Upendra.

 

You GALVA people talk like you are going to improve on Srila Prabhupada's standard of mercy. You are all so much more compassionate than he? I don't think so. Better to use one's time in spreading Krsna consciousness to the nondevotee world than in trying to spread homosexual social acceptance among aspiring devotees in the name of Krsna consciousness.

 

Another thing about Upendra is I knew him for 5 or 6 years before I ever found out he had those tendancies. And not just in a temple setting. We even took some LSD together on a couple occasions when neither of us were chanting much, and I still never knew until he kind of "came out" around 1980.

 

Discretion is the better part of valor. No Krsna conscious person wants to hear about your sex life or mine or any of the myriad of inconsistentcies and falldowns I have gone through. Practically my whole life has been fallen, even now. So this opposition is not about judging anyone it is about the appropriatness of the subject matter in a devotee community.

 

You GALVA types are just fueling a backlash against yourselves.

[Guest guest]

 

In my opinion it is you who are going against Srila Prabhupada's instructions. He clearly asked us to preach with mercy, compassion and inclusiveness, but instead you are trying to misuse isolated statements he made to promote the deviation of "smarta-brahmanism" and exclusiveness.

[Guest guest]

 

So far this hasn't happened after five years of preaching gay inclusiveness. If anything, more and more devotees are becoming open and favorable. Hridayananda Maharaja, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Narayana Maharaja, Tripurari Swami, etc., are just a few examples of those respected leaders who have been outspoken on this point. There may be a few hardline fundamentalists who are angered by Srila Prabhupada's idea of all-inclusiveness, but I don't think they are in the majority.

 

As far as I know Upendra prabhu was a bisexual who later on in life mostly identified as gay.

[Kulapavana]

"In my opinion it is you who are going against Srila Prabhupada's instructions. He clearly asked us to preach with mercy, compassion and inclusiveness, but instead you are trying to misuse isolated statements he made to promote the deviation of "smarta-brahmanism" and exclusiveness. "

 

this is pure propaganda doublespeak. are we lacking in mercy and compassion towards gay people? are we excluding them from our temples? certainly not. we are just as inclusive as Prabhupada was. can you imagine him marrying a gay couple in one of his temples? I can't...

[Guest guest]

Homosexual sex is condemned in the Bhagavatam.

 

But heterosexual sex is approved of in the Bhagavatam, for the purposes of procreation. And in the example of Devahuti and Kardama Rsi we see that heterosexual sex may even be engaged in as a "recreation" by the sages and their consorts:

 

SB 3.23.44: After coming back to his hermitage, he (Kardama) divided himself into nine personalities just to give pleasure to Devahuti, the daughter of Manu, who was eager for sex life. In that way he enjoyed with her for many, many years, which passed just like a moment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hridayananda Maharaja, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Narayana Maharaja, Tripurari Swami, etc., are just a few examples of those respected leaders who have been outspoken on this point.

 

Where has Srila Narayana Maharaja been outspoken on HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR? Except to condemn it, of course.

[stonehearted]

I want to make a couple of brief points, not to stir this thread up as much as to clarify a couple of things. One is that there is a distinction between homosexual behavior (is that a euphemism for sexual activity?) and the inclination for having romantic/sexual attraction to those of the same sex (being gay). That is too often blurred, especially when characterizing what someone else said. We can see one clear example a couple of posts up, where the poster asks where Narayana Maharaja has been outspoken with regard to "HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR." Actually, no one here has written that he has. And that brings me to one of my most common complaints about such discussions, whether they be among devotees or in the general public: mischaracterizing what others write, which leads to folks screaming about something the "other side" said, but which they actually didn't. I would honestly like to see where, as jndas asserted at the beginning of the thread, the GALVA folks said that homosexuals are superior to heterosexuals are more advanced than straights because they're aloof from family attachements (a statement absurd on its face, anyway), or that gay sex isn't considered sinful in the Vedas because it's natural. (C'mon--Bhagavatam says that meat-eating, intoxication, and sex are natural, but none of us believes they're not sinful. That's why they need to be regulated!) I don't remember reading anything even from Amara to the effect that gay sex is not sinful. My experience of GALVA is of devotees who happen to be gay trying to encourage each other to make progress in surrender while acknowledging that they have different kinds of problems sometimes because they are gay, whether they are (or have ever been) sexually active at all or not. I also haven't read such assertions from Hridayananda Maharaja, Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, or the others whose names are tossed about here and there. They have advocated treating everyone with compassion and kindness, gay or straight, and say that maybe, sometimes, under some circumsatnces, there may be a case where something resembling marriage may be helpful for some (note all the hedging, because if you read what they actually say, it's there.) I've never seen any of these leaders aver that homosexual activity is not sinful. Maybe they have , but I haven't seen it.

 

The other buttinsky point is about Upendra. I met him in LA in 1973, and my wife and I spent a week at his apartment with him and Chitralekha. I was pretty sure he was gay, but since he didn't make any direct passes at me I never said anything. A couple of years later, he spent a few weeks with me and my wife in our home on the Big Island. He wrote me later to apologize for having improper feelings toward me, which I could tell, but I never brought it up. When everyone else seemed to be discovering that he was gay, anyone who really knew him very well just shrugged. The same goes for Sudama, who was bisexual. What's being advocated by the leaders vilified here kindness similar to that shown to Upendra, Sudama, and the many, many other gay devotees in the '60s and '70s. The first item among the seven purposes Srila Prabhupada gives for incorporating ISKCON is to educate "all peoples" in the techniques of spiritual science. We shoud indeed encourage everyone to progressively control their mind and senses, but we should try to understand how to help each person move forward from where he or she actually is toward the goal, which is love for Krishna. Too much energy spent on these other things is a distraction from our real business, which is becoming Krishna conscious and sharing whatever we have with anyone and everyone, according to our capacity. Too much energy and time focused on others' sex life (real or imagined) makes us too much like the brahmin who added a rock to his pile every time his prostitute neighbor had a male visitor.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Do you know if that email supposedly sent by Bhavananda is genuine?

 

 

Unfortunately all the indications I have are that it is genuine.

 

I saw him a couple months ago in Mayapur on the veranda of Prabhupada's samadhi having prasadam served to him.