Hridayananda maharaja's latest article

[theist]

 

Babhru butting in

 

 

Et tu Babhru?

 

 

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Hridayananda Maharaja, Bhakti Tirtha Swami, Narayana Maharaja, Tripurari Swami, etc., are just a few examples of those respected leaders who have been outspoken on this point. There may be a few hardline fundamentalists who are angered by Srila Prabhupada's idea of all-inclusiveness, but I don't think they are in the majority.

 

 

Just see, if you agree with the homosexual agenda, you are a "respected leader". If you disagree with them you are a "hardline fundamentalist who is angered by Srila Prabhupada".

 

It doesn't matter if that respected leader says he is in contact with aliens from planet Xeebog-7 and channels ancient african spirits from Atlantis. As long as he agrees with the gay agenda, he is a very "respected leader".

 

And if you question one of their "respected leaders" you are an "offender" committing vaishnava aparadha.

[Guest guest]

quote:

Unfortunately all the indications I have are that it is genuine.

---------------

 

Thanks for that info Prabhu.

 

I really do want to see ISKCON become golden and marvellous, filled with the energy of Mahaprabhu. But this news is sickening.

 

- muralidhar

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupad supposedly knew Bhavanada was Homo sexual and he let him keep chanting and serving in the capacity he did no doubt hoping he would change through the process of sadhana bhakti, but if you let these kind of people propagate their misconceptions of westernized saharjiyism like Boy George and Madonna then you can kiss goodbye to all the good preaching others are trying to do in the name of Krsna Consciousness. Purity is the force when it comes to leadership, on the lesser levels all miscreants are accepted, otherwise none of us would have received the mercy, but not in a public preaching capacity.

Srila Bhaktisiddanta Saraswati Thakur gave his blood to eradicate these influences from the line of Rupa Goswami.

 

What Prabhupad didn't know was bhavs affairs with children that increased after Prabhupad left, and if he did he wouldn't have tolerated it for a moment. One quality of the devotee is that they are para dukha dukhi they feels the pain and suffering of others, they don't administer it for a lifetime of haunting memories. Is that what he will preach to those kids minds that were massacred 20 years ago. Give them the real self esteem of the Gaurdiya Vaisnava, not the shame, it's rubbing salt on these kids wounds. All these examples do is undermine the very dignity our stalwart acharayas crusaded to establish. Just because other religions are watering down their teachings to accomodate homosexual clergy doesn't mean Krsna Consciousness has to follow suite. They treat this whole valuable process like a cheap joke. In the name of political and religious correctness, there are ravenous wolves in sheeps clothing getting away with murder. These are the very activities that disintegrated the foudations of principle that Prabhupad built his mission on, as if iskcon hasn't suffered enough blows to it's reputation.

[Kulapavana]

"What Prabhupad didn't know was bhavs affairs with children that increased after Prabhupad left, and if he did he wouldn't have tolerated it for a moment. One quality of the devotee is that they are para dukha dukhi they feels the pain and suffering of others..."

 

yes, those who knew and were keeping the truth about such activities from Srila Prabhupada were at least just as guilty as Bhavanonsense. They were the ones who created a permissive environment for such illicit activities, and the ones who prevented SP from rectifying this problem in our movement.

[theist]

I imagine that every disciple of Srila Prabhupada would be furious over that guest's admonishment to JNdas that he(Jndas) is the one in opposition to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Wolves in sheeps clothing is correct. Enemies within.

 

Funny I don't see much of anything in the way of opposition from the so-called leaders of that institution.

 

Silence means argreement.

[Kulapavana]

I'll be generous: it's good intentions and lack of qualifications to understand the issue.

[theist]

I think you are being overly-generous Kulapavana.

[stonehearted]

theist:

I imagine that every disciple of Srila Prabhupada would be furious over that guest's admonishment to JNdas that he(Jndas) is the one in opposition to Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

I was peeved that he responded in kind, and more ticked off that s/he did so from behind the "guest" blind. Those of you who have been around here for a couple of years know how I feel about anonymous "guests" playing sniper. Unfortunately, such rhetoric dominates any discussion of this issue from both "sides." It's also terribly unproductive. Both sides rely too heavily on ad-hominem attacks, and most participants mischaracterize what the "other side" says in order to score points. The result is that almost everyone misses the real issue. Too bad.

 

Whenever these contentious issues arise, practically none of us is able to see what we're really doing. We don't feel that we're being political, but that we are fighting to defend Srila Prabhupada's honor and his legacy. The best thing we can do, in my humble, and clearly unwelcome, opinion, is to immerse ourselves in our sadhana and in humbly sharing the treasure bestowed by parama-karuna Sri Sri Nitai-Gaurachandra, thus developing the ideal character that will attract others to Their movement. Most other endeavors are too vulnerable to the insidious influence of false ego.

 

With that, I'll zip my trap and butt out.

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know if there is any concrete evidence that Bhavananda engaged in sex with children. The fact that he is a homosexual is proven, but has he been mentioned in testimony by boys who were abused by him.

 

If so, I will see to it that the police in Australia are informed and that the matter is fully investigated.

 

-m.das

[Airicky]

I don't know the laws in Australia but in the US any known sex offender must register with the local authorities in his/her town of residence. If they don't do this then they forfeit their freedom.

 

These people MUST be kept away from any type of association with children.

 

This is not the first time I have heard of sex offenders slipping thru the cracks in Australia temples. What is going on there?

[Guest guest]

As far as I know he has never faced charges in Australia, there was never any legal case laid down in Australia because the focus was on a world wide case against Iskcon in general, you have to understand that it is an embarrassing and traumatic ordeal for anyone to be dragged back through after they've got on with their lives.

Being brought up as a devotional child they may feel violated but probably don't feel vindictive, and to regurgitate the memories isn't a relishable prospect. It also entails a lot of legal procedure, this is also over 20 years ago. We can feel strong disgust about these issues but we don't have to go through court to make it stick.

 

[theist]

 

With that, I'll zip my trap and butt out.

 

 

What is up with this Babhru? You are one of a very select group of direct Prabhupada disciples streching back 35 years. Even though you may not be directly involved with present day Iskcon certainly you have a natural interest in wanting to see that ocean liner right itself and getback and remain on course.

 

Hell even I do and I have only been a part-time particpant at best for all these years. Even though I suspect overall we may have disagreements on the basic issue surely you can agree that Prabhupada's institution should be allowed to be reflective of his will rather we agree on all the particulars or not. That's the prominent issue here to me. His will. Isn't that the least anyone can do out of respect and gratitude for Srila Prabhupada? I mean just to not change anything and let his institution be As It Is after he worked so hard to establish it.

 

To see Prabhupada's long time disciples and students just ignore this by burying their heads in their sadhana seems like false renounciation to me. Its even painful.

 

[Guest guest]

What I am asking is, is there any evidence that Bhavananda is a paedophile. He is homosexual, and he was probably involved with paedophiles, but are there any children who have stated that Bhavananda sexually abused them.

 

I don't believe Bhavananda should be giving classes at Mayapura, because he is gay. And because of his exploitation of devotees he has done great harm to the sankirtan movement of Sri Chaitanyadeva. I don't like him. But I haven't seen any evidence to show that he directly abused children. If he did, I will inform the police and he will be dealt with. In Australia there are laws to prosecute men who have abused children while the men were in foreign countries. So even if he did it in India, the Australian police would arrest him, if there was sufficient evidence.

 

So, does anyone know of any direct complaints about Bhavananda?

[stonehearted]

theist:

What is up with this Babhru? You are one of a very select group of direct Prabhupada disciples streching back 35 years. Even though you may not be directly involved with present day Iskcon certainly you have a natural interest in wanting to see that ocean liner right itself and getback and remain on course.

 

Hell even I do and I have only been a part-time particpant at best for all these years. Even though I suspect overall we may have disagreements on the basic issue surely you can agree that Prabhupada's institution should be allowed to be reflective of his will rather we agree on all the particulars or not. That's the prominent issue here to me. His will. Isn't that the least anyone can do out of respect and gratitude for Srila Prabhupada? I mean just to not change anything and let his institution be As It Is after he worked so hard to establish it.

 

To see Prabhupada's long time disciples and students just ignore this by burying their heads in their sadhana seems like false renounciation to me. Its even painful.

 

 

I haven't ignored it, and I'm not burying my head in anything. (I do think it's weird to denigrate someone's long-term commitment to sadhana, which means the process of attaining the goal for which we should all aspire. It is also the order of the spiritual master.) I have worked on these issues and over the last 36 years' involvement in ISKCON have developed a sense of what I can accomplish. I think what little time I have is best spent doing something other than pursuing circular arguments. I have expressed one of my primary concerns repeated here and elsewhere--that we read and think carefully. I have also often served as a good example of how wrong we can be when we don't, and have cheerfully admitted that when it happened. The key is how we associate with each other, how we discuss these things. If our "arguments" degenerate into bickering peppered with name calling, that, more than any perceived difference in uderstanding, is contrary to Srila Prabhupada's and Mahaprabhu's will.

 

I have a project on the stove with regard to this issue. Some here will appreciate the result, and others will not. It will express my understanding of Srila Prabhupada's will as clearly as I can. Some of us seem to see him as primarily a strict father, and others as a nurturing parent. Both are there in his character and his dealings with us; I happen to see the latter as more essential and more in keeping with the purposes he gave for establishing ISKCON, as well as with the character of Lord Chaitanya and Lord Nityananda, whose movement this is.

 

I'm more involved than you know. Nevertheless, because I have a job that demands a great deal of my time and my energy (mental and emotional), I don't have much time to sit around on forums and bicker back and forth with those whose understanding is a little different from mine. And my refusal to call them offenders against Prabhupada is not wishy-washy: it's a strong stand against easy indulgence in vaishnava aparadha, which I see as the real impediment to our progress.

 

Feel free to consider yourself a superior warrior to me, or whatever. Our real strength is not in self-righteous, self-serving tirades against deviants (or deviates), but in actually becoming Krishna conscious.

[stonehearted]

Murali, I tried to track this down 10 or 12 years ago, and I was unable to find evidence of sexual abuse directly perpetrated by Bhav against boys. Physical abuse, yes. Emotional abuse--plenty. But not pedophilia. That doesn't mean it's not there, just that I couldn't find anyone. It may merit further investigation by someone who has greater facility than I had then.

[Guest guest]

Prabhu,

 

Personally, it doesn't matter much to me if the man is gay. Live and let live, I feel. But what I am really against is exploitation of devotees or of children.

 

[theist]

 

Feel free to consider yourself a superior warrior to me, or whatever.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Actually it doesn't matter to any of of us that the man is gay, that's his business. It's only when it interferes with others, especially children, that ruffles a lot of feathers.

[Guest guest]

 

Murali, I tried to track this down 10 or 12 years ago, and I was unable to find evidence of sexual abuse directly perpetrated by Bhav against boys.

 

 

I have heard statements that he abused Indian boys (maybe workers), which would make it impossible to verify.

[stonehearted]

Whatever . . .

 

What's the deal--the only acceptable way for me to respond to one of your sermons is total submission? I'm willing to accept that your program and mine, your approach and mine, your perspective and mine, are different. I thought you could appreciate that, too. I have a very demanding job and a fairly intense sadhana, a family, and service I do with and for other devotees. I also have a program for sharing Krishna consciousness. I'm satisfied neither with the depth of my sadhana nor the breadth of my outreach efforts, but I work on them every day. In the meantime, I recognize the limits of my capacity for correcting the ills of an institution with very serious problems and pick my battles accordingly. Am I sometimes mistaken? You betcha! When we met in Honolulu, I deliberately chose to go along with the GBC's program so I could run a gurukula there as a service to my spiritual master and the members of my community. While I sometimes wish I had been clever enough to find another way to do that, many people benefited in the meantime. Could I be wrong now? Yup. But my approach grows from the realizations bestowed on me by almost 36 years of service and sadhana, with which I persist regardless of my external circumstances. I'm not going to apologize for that, and I don't expect you to apologize for your own realizations. I respect your dedication to pursuing Krishna consciousness over so many years and hope you'll tolerate my inability to meet your expectations.

[theist]

So defensive and unnecessarily so. I was speaking in terms much broader than you Babhru. And especially, but not exclusively, to those still in Iskcon who seem to feel that they can only go along trying to practice their own sadhana while accepting whatever . comes down from on high usually with some quote about how Prabhupada esablished the GBC and how he said not to associate outside of Iskcon etc. What a trapped position when you put those together. Just swallow what you are feed.

 

So now its possible that some grand edict will descend from the mountain top that the temples must now start conducting homosexual marriage ceremonies and people will just grumble and go along to get along and keep their positions.

 

I was never even thinking about what you do or do not do in your own life situation. And on this issue I am quite sure we would disagree. But from my viewpoint I see another collosal mistake taking shape similar to the zonal fiasco only in slower motion. And with a big name in iskcon backing it like HDG it just might happen. That is unless people speak up. If they don't of course then they deserve to live with it.

 

I hope I was more clear. Sorry for the "sermon".

[stonehearted]

theist:

So defensive and unnecessarily so. I was speaking in terms much broader than you Babhru. And especially, but not exclusively, to those still in Iskcon. . . .

 

So now its possible that some grand edict will descend from the mountain top that the temples must now start conducting homosexual marriage ceremonies and people will just grumble and go along to get along and keep their positions.

 

 

Okay, I get that. The first paragraph made the whole thing seem as though it were aimed at me. As far as marriage ceremonies, etc. are concerned, it's a straw man. When HDG mentioned it in his first post, it was a passing remark, not at all central to his observations (not even sure it was an argument at that point), and there's no indication there that he's calling for any such thing. His "formal recognition" and "appreciation" are so vague that others started reading things into them that I doubt he intended. I mentioned this to him myself. I think he meant them to remain undefined. And what he is calling for is some appreciation of the monogamy part, not because it's not sinful, but because it may be seen as a step in the right direction. And even Amara, who has written in favor of marriage (of some sort, at least), has not called for "Vedic" marriage ceremonies or anything of the sort. And he has clearly stated that neither he nor anyone he's associated is trying to change the definition of illicit sex.

 

As far as HDG being a big, powerful GBC member, my sense (albeit from afar) is that many devotees respect him for the service he has done over the last 36 years, but many in ISKCON aren't quite sure what to make of him anymore. So I don't know how much weight his essays will carry. And it appears to me that there is plenty of opposition, although the opposition I've seen criticizes things that haven't actually been said or done.

 

I think it's important to discuss this issue, but we need to discuss it carefully and without offending other devotees. In Bhagavad-gita, Krishna says clearly that austerity of speech is truthful, beneficial, agreeable, and not offensive. Especially these days, when anything we dash off hastily on one of these boards or in an email can end up all over the net, we should always keep this in mind. Many of ISKCON's policies have helped undermine its effectiveness, but the most corrosive are those encouraging the culture of vaishnava aparadha. If we can't disagree without publicly questioning another devotee's sincerity or authenticity, we may need to take some time out to bury our heads and bathe our hearts in more profound sadhana.

[theist]

 

In reply to:

---------------------------

 

With that, I'll zip my trap and butt out.

 

---------------------------What is up with this Babhru? You are one of a very select group of direct Prabhupada disciples streching back 35 years. Even though you may not be directly involved with present day Iskcon certainly you have a natural interest in wanting to see that ocean liner right itself and getback and remain on course.

 

 

This was the first paragraph. Now try to hear it from this angle and see if it makes sense.

 

You are again saying that are butting in and that you will now keep your trap shut. And then I question that attitude from the perspective of you being such a long time disciple of Srila Prabhupada that surely you have a natural right to voice your interest and opinions over what happens in the institution that he worked so hard to initiate and stabilize rather you are presently living within their walls or not. And that due to your longtime experience that your voice is deserving of being heard.

 

Please read it once more with that idea in mind and you will understand that I was trying to get you past that strange feeling of "butting in"or speaking out of turn or whatever it was, that to me seemed so out place. The attitude not you.

 

But this brings me to the main point and that it is still Prabhupada's institution and should be maintained in the way he directed. If someone wants to do something else well Krsna has certainly given everyone enough room to do our own things in. But Iskcon is Prabhupada's.

 

Apart from the question of gay marriage if both sides of this debate could at least agree on that much a big battle could be averted.

 

I am sure it is the way I say things. That has plauged me all my life. If I say to somebody "that's a nice shirt" I could very easily get popped in the mouth for criticizing someone taste in clothes. It's a curse.

 

Hare Krsna

[stonehearted]

Yes, I thought I said I get it. The fact is, though, that I have been doing what I can and saying what I could over the years. Some appreciate my efforts, others don't. I don't have that much power to effect or prevent change in ISKCON. I'm a small man with small influence. Moreover, many will think that my perspectives are mistaken, even offensive. So it goes . . .

 

With regard to this particular issue, I have a contribution to make, whose faults you and others here will be quick to point out. It requres a little time and energy to put it together, which is one reason I seem to be less involved in discussions on these forums.