Hridayananda maharaja's latest article

[Guest guest]

I was wondering to myself the other day, thinking "there is no place for homosexuals in the sankirtan of Mahaprabhu".

 

Then I realized that Mahaprabhu would probably allow homosexuals to come and chant in sankirtan. But as we know from the incident of the "milk drinking brahmin", the highest standard of surrendered devotion is required for people who would come and intimately associate with Mahaprabhu and his inner circle. The "milk drinking brahmin" was not allowed into the inner circle, so it seems inconceivable that someone who is homosexual would be allowed inside.

 

As far as I can see, I believe it would be OK for a homosexual to come and chant with devotees, even in front of the Deities, since tradition tells us that even meat eaters are allowed to come into the temple and have darshan of the Deities. But I cannot see that tradition allows for homosexuals to worship the Deity, or engage in other related processes of inner purification. As far as I can tell, homosexuals need to give up their filthy mind-set before then can be given diksa and engage in sadhana-bhakti.

 

Apart from what "Prabhupada says" in statments here and there, which people in ISKCON are concerned with, there is the broader tradition of Gaudiya Math and Gaudiya Vaishnavism, from which ISKCON has evolved. And in Gaudiya Vaishnavism there is no accommodation for homosexuality. None. The homosexuals belong outside the tradition of Gaudiya Vaishnavism.

 

-Muralidhar

[Guest guest]

For what it's worth. Too many people are listening to leaders, orators, writers and less than pure devotees right throughout the vaisnava world on the big issues. If it's tainted with madhyam and kanista realizations, reflections, experience and activities. Then we will find to that degree the devotee is not surrendered to the Lords will, words, and wishes we will only receive information or knowledge that will express the lesser potency and clarity of Gods purpose for us bunch of lost and floundering souls.

 

The further away from practicing the Lords instruction we are the more misconception we are apt to propagate, therefore it is absolutely essential to adjust to those persons who are recognized as purely passing on the vani of the guru varga of our line of Truth. All issues can be quite simply resolved around that.

 

For any mission to sail smoothly to the ultimate goal of life it must have a qualified navigator that will deliver everyone on board to our Home port, at the same time the journey will be a unanimously joyful experience for all.

This is why although our views and opinions, our truth may be relative to someones evolution of consciousness, it still may be tainted with our own relative conditioned conception, and therefore unsatisfactory to bring about a desired outcome for all concerned, like when Srila Sukadev entered the assembly of sages in the forest and the beautiful purport of Divinity was given.

 

That doesn't nessacarily negate anyones contribution but there must be common recognition of the will of God, to bring about a respectful harmony for all involved.

 

 

If something is accepted in the Name of Krsna Consciousness that clearly isn't Krsnas wish, then it must be corrected if it doesn't want to correct, then it must be rejected.

But still we have to know what Krsnas Truth is, and for that we have to referr to the uttama adhikari.

 

Unfortunately we can't get all our leaders into one assembly to show who has what potency, but we do have an idea by their fruits and we should, if we are sincere seekers of the Absolute Truth recognize their respective positions, contributions and views on the various issues that effect all of our lives today.

By going to or referring to those most adjusted to the centre and source of all sound.... KRSNA we will get our real fullfillment.

[stonehearted]

I think the question is how any of us can rid ourselves of our filthy mentalities. I know that I'm also not fit to be admitted to the Lord's inner circle, and that I've been engaged in bhakti purely out of mercy. I continue to progress, however slowly, because I do my best to take advantage of the opportunities I've been given for sadhu-sanga, nama-kirtan, and Bhagavat-sravan. Because I've fortunate enough to have received diksa, I can also engage in sri-murtira-sevana, which makes my home (parts of it, at least) something like the holy dhama. These five activities are the most spiritually powerful, and we should do whatever we can to encourage everyone to adopt them according to their capacity.

 

That's the principle. It's the details, I think, where we are working things out. How many homosexuals are going to get excited about increasing their surrender because every Vaishnava they encounter reacts with revulsion every time they encounter them? Maybe it's better to congratulate them (and everyone) whenever they make some progress in restricting sense gratification for the purpose of becoming more suitable receptacles for kripa. And if those inclined by past samskaras toward illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, etc. (Wait! That's every conditioned soul: loke vyavayamisa-madya-seva nitya hi jantoh. . . .) cannot engage in purifying activities, how can we give up those filthy tendencies? As I mentioned, even the much-vilified Amara has made it clear that he has no desire to redefine illicit sex. The real question is how to make it clear to everyone that Mahaprabhu's mercy is meant for them, not what they eventually have to do in order to make warp-speed progress, but what's appropriate to bring everyone along, step by step, so they may continue to engage in whatever processes will help them. If we chase them away with our insistence that they be as pure as we, they may or may not come back for sankirtan next time.

 

In 1976, my wife and I visited Honolulu (from where we lived here on the Big Island) to hear our spiritual master's classes and chant with the devotees at the ISKCON temple. Because we had spent a year as head pujaris for the Deities there, we had some sentiment for offering some service, so we asked whether we could cook an afternoon offering one day. Even though the temple president had previously visited our home on the Big Island and knew that we had mangal-arati, Bhagavatam class, etc. every day, that we chanted at least 16 rounds daily and had never stopped following the regulative principles required for inititation, he said we couldn't cook for the Deities because we didn't live in the temple. My response was that it may be hard to draw people into the family by making them feel like outsiders. However, if we treated them like family, they may naturally feel more inclined to become one of us.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Babhru Prabhu,

 

I understand.

 

But I disagree.

 

I think homosexuals contaminate the atmosphere in the places where devotees gather. I don't say this just because of "homophobia", but because of things I have seen in my 33 years of association with devotees.

 

-murali

 

 

[Guest guest]

I've already givn my views on this debate on another thread so I won'tbore you with them.

 

I just had one comment to Muralidhar.

 

Isn't it ironic how you say Homosexuals have no place in taking part in regular temple activites, yet at the same time so many "acaryas" promote the inner identification and associated sadhana of envisioning yourself as female in your mind as being the highest form of sadhana?

 

In fact that practice has led to some sects and vaisnavas within the Caitanya lineage to dress like women and act out in homosexual ways. I find it ironic that on the one hand we have a religion where the mass of acaryas (not Prabhupada or Bhaktisiddhanta) including current Gaudiya acaryas (even ISKCON eg gopi bhava club) preach that identifying your inner self as female while viewing the outer male body as temporary should have such antagonism towards homosexuals. Prabhupada knew there were disciples f his who were Homosexuals and they were allowed to take part in all temple activities, some of those whom I wont mention have contributed more to ISKCON then just about anyone else, (lets keep names out of this for those who know what I speak of) I mean Prabhupadas personal servant was Gay, and Prabhupada knew it, Prabhupada knew about Bhavananda as well and made him an officiating acarya, Sudama as well and gave him a lot of responsibility. While he may not have condoned homosexual activity, he didn't condone any type of sexual activity except for child rearing. What do you suggest? Having some kind of judge who rules whether or not someone is Gay and therefore not allowed to participate?

 

Like I said before Hrdyananda Maharaja seems to me to be making a decision based on trying to gain support from Gays for his preaching, I don't think he is trying to do anything but try to soften the tendency of anti gay attitudes which may hamper Gay persons contributions to Iskcon, which has come in the form of millions of dollars to date, buildings, projects etc.

[Guest guest]

Shiva said:

Isn't it ironic how you say Homosexuals have no place in taking part in regular temple activites, yet at the same time so many "acaryas" promote the inner identification and associated sadhana of envisioning yourself as female in your mind as being the highest form of sadhana?

<hr>

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj said that if someone meditates on himself, imagining himself as a female who is rendering service to Krishna in Vraja, then he is only practicing a kind of mental exercise. First realize yourself as straw in the street, and purify your heart, before anything else.

 

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati introduced Daivi Varnashrama, a social organization whereby people can become pure at heart, for in the hearts of those who are pure in heart and who worship the Lord, Bhaktidevi will become manifest. Then again, in varnashram there is no place of accommodation for homosexuals. They are meant to live in the area assigned to them by King Pariksit, when he met Kali-yuga personified and gave Kali-yuga slaughterhouses, wineshops and brothels as his residences.

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

Murali, I think you're right that at least some gays contaminate the atmosphere, but I've known many gay guests and devotees who don't create a disturbance. And I have more often seen straight men (and women) whose lust contaminates the environment at a program. There have been times when we've asked some to leave. But doing so just because someone is gay, even if their behavior at the program is not at all inappropriate, seems counter to what we, as agents of Lord Nityananda, are about.

[Guest guest]

Babhru,

 

I would never ask a gay person to leave when they have come to find out about Krishna and Mahaprabhu. And I have also had to deal with straight men who come along and misbehave. But when gays come, I feel nervous because the longer they are with us the sensitive, inevitable issues start to come to the surface, and it is hard to avoid conflict because they are often very fixed in their views, and they have their "gay pride". I have personal experience of this.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

As I mentioned, even the much-vilified Amara has made it clear that he has no desire to redefine illicit sex.

 

 

Actually he does want to redefine illicit sex:

 

[from the GALVA website]

Oral sex is not recommended for heterosexuals and is forbidden to brahmanas (priests), but it is acknowledged as the natural practice among those of the third sex who are not otherwise engaged in celibacy.

 

...

 

This type of apparent homosexual behavior between first-gender males, as seen in prisons for instance where there are no females available, is considered “demoniac and is not for any sane male in the ordinary course of life.” It should not be confused with the natural homosexuality described in the Kama Shastra and practiced by people belonging to the third sex, acting according to their nature and with affection.

 

 

And see this one:

 

[from the GALVA website]

Another important point to note is that people of the third sex were utilized to bestow blessings. Blessings can only be bestowed by people who are auspicious, yet transvestites were well known for their homosexual behavior and often served as prostitutes. The answer to this apparent anomaly is that since they belonged to the third gender, transvestites were considered sexually neutral. In Vedic literature, the strongest bond within this material world is said to be the attraction between man and woman. Combined, they create so many attachments such as home, property, children, grandchildren, etc., all of which entangle the living entity in samsara, the cycle of repeated birth and death that is perpetuated through the procreative process. People of the third sex were considered to be aloof from this attachment, particularly gay males. They typically did not engage in procreation or family life, and this was a special quality that made their status unique within civilized Vedic culture.

 

 

The GALVA people claim that homosexual prostitutes were auspicious because they weren't required to follow the same regulative principes as others (it was "natural" for them), and therefore they could bless people despite being engaged in homosexual sex and prostitution. (No thanks, I don't want the blessings of a homosexual prostitute.)

 

Now compare that with the real situation as confirmed by Prabhupada: a "napumsaka" was a person who was born with neither sexual organ and therefore automatically observed celibacy for life. By virtue of their celibacy they were able to bless new born children.

 

Which one sounds logical and sane?

 

That the homosexual prostitutes were above rules and regulations and therefore somehow "auspicious" despite being engaged in homosex as prostitutes, and therefore able to bless people;

 

OR someone born with no sexual organs observing celibacy for life, and therefore considered able to bless new born children.

 

Another one:

 

[from the GALVA website]

Citizens of the third sex represented only a very small portion of the overall population, which most estimates place at approximately 5 percent. They were not perceived to be a threat in any way and were considered to be aloof from the ordinary attachments of procreation and family life.

 

 

According to them homosexual prostitutes were somehow seen as unique because they were aloof from family attachments - and therefore they had the power to bless people. What the heck?! Am I the only one who sees these statements as insane?

 

Just see this one again:

[from the GALVA website]

...yet transvestites were well known for their homosexual behavior and often served as prostitutes.

 

...

 

In Vedic literature, the strongest bond within this material world is said to be the attraction between man and woman.

 

...

 

 

People of the third sex were considered to be aloof from this attachment, particularly gay males.

 

 

What?! By their own words they were acting as prostitutes and engaged in homosexual activities, yet these insane people claim such homosexual gay males acting as prostitutes were somehow "aloof from the ordinary attachments of procreation and family life" and considered unique - thereby being auspicious and having the power to bless people.

 

Such nonsensical propaganda from the gay agenda seems to be overlooked by leaders in ISKCON in favour of attracting new gay disciples.

 

Can anyone dare to say these statements quoted from the GALVA website are Prabhupada's teachings? If leaders or gurus overlook these statements and do not speak out against these things, and instead call for appreciation and recognition of gay monogamy then they deserve to be called rascals and cheaters. They are no different than Kirtanananda or Bhavananda. Silence is acceptance, especially when you openingly call "for appreciation and recognition".

 

ISKCON is Prabhupada's movement, it should remain his movement and should stick to his teachings; not be watered down by every Swami Tom, Dick and Harry to hold a transient position in ISKCON.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

The GALVA people have resorted to more deception. In advertising their new book they provide a list of quotes, one by Srila Prabhupada:

 

“In India there is a system where such people (the third sex) have their own society, and whenever there is some good occasion like marriage or childbirth, they go there and pray to God that this child may be very long living.”

- A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

Just see how they have inserted "(the third sex)" in a manner that people will think it was written by Prabhupada. People unfamiliar with Srila Prabhupada and his teachings would see such a quote as being authored by Prabhupada himself, and not as being edited.

 

Why is it a big deal? Because Prabhupada never supported this theory of a third sex, to put those words into his mouth is pure deception. The quote above was not speaking about Amara Das's "third sex" so why put those words as though Prabhupada had himself written them?

 

Prabhupada was speaking of the "napumsaka" which means "not male" and has both traditionally and modernly referred throughout India to those born with no sexual organs - not to an imagined third sex made up of gays and lesbians.

 

This is a word that is still used in nearly all Indic languages. It simply does not refer to homosexuals, plain and simple; neither in the past nor at present.

 

By inserting such words into Prabhupada's quote, while not identifying it as an addition, they are fooling people into thinking Prabhupada believed in these "third sex" people who: were prostitutes, who engaged in "natural" and nonsinful homosex, who were "aloof from attachments" and who had the power to bless people.

 

When someone reads the GALVA website describing these "third sex" homosexual prostitutes and then sees Prabhupada speaking about the same "third sex" people, what will he conclude? That Prabhupada endorsed receiving blessings from homosexual prostitutes. Yes, it is absurd, but so is the entire GALVA system of logic and presentation.

[Tarun]

Might u, could u say to him face to face:

"Dear PrabhupAd, with deep regret i wish 2 inform u -

your originally pure sankIrtan mission meant to spread Krsna Consciousness far & wide has become somewhat farcical, bordering on whimsical. iow - Kaliyuga has entered, infiltrated in so many ways, even into your books."

[Guest guest]

I was pretty naive when I was a brahmacari and I didn't really have problems with gay people. Most of the gay devotees---I weren't even aware they were gay until years later. I guess they kept it secret, and that's probably as it should be. I do remember a couple of men guests asking for me personally every Sunday for the feast. And then offering compliments on how I looked. But they never pushed it further. I just preached and that was that, otherwise, it

may have become a problem.

 

Today, however, it seems to be a different story. Upendra is given as an example. I never knew he was gay while he was Srila Prabhupada's servant. However, at a Rathayatra in San Francisco sometime during the 90's, he carried a "GAY PRIDE" poster with him during the festivities. He may have regretted it later, I don't know, and I don't like to criticize someone who is no longer able to defend himself. However, carrying that poster was quite conspicuous and made people wonder just what his agenda was and where his priorities were.

 

I don't see why they need formal recognition. When Srila Prabhupada was here, this wasn't an issue. Gays weren't screaming for appreciation, monogamous relationships, and formal recognition.

 

Steven

 

[vijay]

my 2 bits worth, like babhru prabhu said, I feel its unfair to say gays contaminte the atmosphere any one with material desires does that, if a gay or a hetro takes to krsna conciousness they are less contimnating the desiese gets cured, a mental speculator a lusty guy a person looking for wealth they all contaminate the atmosphere.

 

Gays should be allowed to worship the diety at the temple if the are following the 4 regs and doing 16 rounds sincerly trying to follow if not then disallowed, which is the same for hetrosexual couples if they are engaging in sex and treating each other as sex machines then they shouldnt be allowed to do certain things thats the standard for everyone.

 

If they want to get a civil marriage then thats their business in that marriage if its anything apart from emotional support and used for illicit sex then they should not be allowed to do certain services that require 4 regs and 16 rounds as a minimum (which means celibacy for gays and celibacy for hetros(apart from kids)).

 

As for appreiciating their manogomy, its the same as appreciating someone who has cut down from 10 cigerates to 1 cigrette a day, yes its a good start but our process is 16 rounds and 4 regs only when you come to that platform we are appreciated as humans.

 

A hetrosexual marriage where illicit sex goes on is also animal life and there is no spritual formal approval only a material one. And is the same thing as cutting down form 10 cigerttes to half a cigrette (may be slightly better than a gay marriage but still animal life) (they may attain heavenly planets by doing their material duties as this is the system designed by the lord, however its still different types of stool until they follow the process).

 

If gays want to commit to a partner then thats good on them and they should understand they are advancing but formal spitual recognition comes when you come to the human platform when we follow 4 regs and chant 16-initiation (There is no system designed by the lord for formal material approval for gay unity). Any other concocted formal recognition before we have achieved this level only re-inforces our bodily concept thinking that he's come to a good platform when there is still some way to go.

 

[theist]

 

Gays should be allowed to worship the diety at the temple if the are following the 4 regs and doing 16 rounds sincerly trying to follow if not then disallowed, which is the same for hetrosexual couples if they are engaging in sex and treating each other as sex machines then they shouldnt be allowed to do certain things thats the standard for everyone.

 

 

vijay, I just want to be sure I am not misunderstanding you. When you say worship the Deities at the temple you are meaning as a pujari or preparing offering in the kitchen, correct? You not talking about standing before the Deities in the congregation.

[Guest guest]

 

JN prabhu, I just don't think you can make up your own definition of what the Vedic/Hindu third sex is, such as limiting it to only intersexed people (without sex organs). No one is ever going to buy that. The third sex is very well known in India and sociological studies have been conducted on them - they are definitely associated with homosexuality, prostitution, transgender behavior, etc., not just intersex.

 

Besides this, the twenty types of "napumsaka" or third sex people are clearly delineated in our scriptures, and homosexuality is definitely included there. These lists and descriptions of homosexuals as third sex can be found in the "Sabda-kalpa-druma,Narada-smriti,Sushruta-samhita,Kamatantra,Smriti-ratnavali," etc. All these scriptures describe the third sex as homosexual, at least to some extent, so I don't understand how you can explain or support your own definition of the third sex in such a limited and unrealistic manner.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja and other Gaudiya Vaishnava groups have been very inclusive of gays, much more so then ISKCON nowadays. Excluding gays from Krsna consciousness is more or less a deviation that has appeared since the departure of Srila Prabhupada.

 

In fact, many Gaudiya Matha temples are welcoming the gay devotees that ISKCON now rejects. I have personally already seen some examples of this.

 

Amara dasa prabhu, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, recently discussed this with Srila Narayana Maharaja and his comments were quite validating and strong: "We will accept everyone!"

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja's comments on third-gender acceptance in Krsna consciousness can be found through the following link (Note: he was NOT talking about homosexual behavior, just homosexual people):

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja on Third-Gender Inclusiveness:

 

http://www.galva108.org/perspectives6.html

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

In the mid-80's a woman from England took diksa from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, then after returning to the UK she wrote to Srila Sridhar Maharaj and said to him that she was a lesbian and that she felt she should be treated equally as heterosexuals and be accepted in the Math as a woman who is sexually attracted to other women.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj was appalled.

 

He wrote back and told the woman he rejected her as his disciple. He said she should return the harinama beads she was given.

 

He was appalled that this woman should dishonour the "ladies section" of the devotee community, since ladies are the highest types of devotees on account of their self sacrificing nature. He said men are more assertive and aggressive, especially in regard to sex, and that this woman from the UK was acting in a very unfeminine and materialistic way that could never be accepted.

 

To use his own words, he "disconnected her".

 

-muralidhar

[theist]

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja's comments on third-gender acceptance in Krsna consciousness can be found through the following link (Note: he was NOT talking about homosexual behavior, just homosexual people)

 

 

Nor do I suspect he is favor of gay marriages and public recognition by any branch of GV.

[Guest guest]

I just read through the first three chapters of Chaitanya Bhagavat which describe the baby-pastimes and there is no mention of baby Nimai being blessed by eunuchs, transvestites or anyone like that. The gods came and the ladies in the neighbourhood too, but no eunuchs or whatever you want to call them.

 

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to read Chaitanya Bhagavat, it is a relief and purifying to read the holy scriptures when your mind has been thinking about queer people.

[Guest guest]

 

This is hard to believe as it sounds so out of character and contradictory to the behavior of other Vaishnavas such as Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja. I'll definitely have to run this tale by Srila Sridhara Maharaja's disiciples. Any references at all? Or is this just something someone told you somewhere?

[theist]

You may be addressing such a disciple.

[Guest guest]

Not only was Srila Sridhara Maharaj strict on the lady.

If his pujaris even wrote to ladies with infatuation, he would dissmiss them from their service to the deities. Such was his standard of purity he considered nessacary to bathe dress and attend their Lordships. I mean after all the real conception of diety worship is inconceivable to our western materially conditioned minds. They are Male and Female and this service demands the uttmost purity in mind, body and spirit, not to be taken lightly.

Also there was one German sanyas disciple that was found to have homosexual leanings who was immediately expelled from His service to the line of Sri Caitanya Saraswat math.

 

[Guest guest]

Poster: Guest

Re: Srila Sridhara Maharaja

 

 

This is hard to believe as it sounds so out of character and contradictory to the behavior of other Vaishnavas such as Srila Prabhupada and Srila Narayana Maharaja. I'll definitely have to run this tale by Srila Sridhara Maharaja's disiciples. Any references at all? Or is this just something someone told you somewhere?

<hr>

I am a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

I was there with Guru Maharaj and his secretary when Srila Sridhar Maharaj cut off that disciple. That woman.

 

-muralidhar

 

[Guest guest]

Not only was Srila Sridhara Maharaj strict on the lady.

If his pujaris even wrote to ladies with infatuation, he would dissmiss them from their service to the deities. Such was his standard of purity he considered nessacary to bathe dress and attend their Lordships. I mean after all the real conception of diety worship is inconceivable to our western materially conditioned minds. They are Male and Female and this service demands the uttmost purity in mind, body and spirit, not to be taken lightly.

Also there was one German sanyas disciple that was found to have homosexual leanings who was immediately expelled from His service to the line of Sri Caitanya Saraswat math.

<hr>

yes I was there for that too.

 

he was a german, and disciple of Srila Prabhupada who took sannyasa from Guru Maharaj. He was ousted.

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

JN prabhu, I just don't think you can make up your own definition of what the Vedic/Hindu third sex is, such as limiting it to only intersexed people (without sex organs). No one is ever going to buy that.

 

 

As I mentioned, the word napumsaka is still used in virtually every Indic language even today. In all of these languages it does not refer to a homosexual, but to someone born without sexual organs. This is just the reality of the language, no question of trying to make up definitions. This also happens to be how Srila Prabhupada has defined it.

 

As far as me "making up my own definition", I haved lived in India for around 12 years, and have sufficient knowledge of Indic languages and sanskrit. All of my experiences confirm that the definition of this word both in scriptural use and in modern use refers to someone born without sexual organs.

 

Since you make the assertion that I am "making up my own definition", you must therefore be an expert of Indian linguistics, or at least have some degree of knowledge on the subject. What exactly are your qualifications to make the assertion (what Indic languages have you studied?), or is your plan to just remain as an anonymous guest and make wild claims while not revealing your identity?