Hopeful

[AncientMariner]

After reading on the internet I find myself becoming more and more hopeful about the future of Iskcon. It appears to me at least that the divided camps of Iskcon are at least becoming more willing to communicate with each other in a civilized manner. Maybe in a few years all the guru camps can become united in the service of Srila Prabhupada and Prabhupada's hopes of the Hare Krishna Movement taking over the government will come to fruition. That is what is needed for us karmis up here in the Northwest. We need the slaughterhouses and the wine shops to be closed down by the government or it is my fear our spiritual progress will remain stunted.

[Guest guest]

Depends which Guru camps you are talking about? Inside or outside Iskcon? There will always be some unity and difference simultaneously, so long as there is a common master and Lord things can be harmonized.

[Guest guest]

ISKCON is not about to join with the other groups in some kind of group effort. The different groups have their own societies with their own versions of how to present Krishna consciousness. None of them are about to compromise what they see as their integrity in order to work with another group which they see as deviant in some way or another.

 

As far as Prabhupada saying something about taking over the U.S government, man that is really a fantasy, I don't know how you think that will ever come even close to happening. Around 40% of Americans are fanatically Christian. The rest are either fanatically not interested in any kind of religious influence over the government, or they are atheists and agnostics. Krishna conscious influence in America will never affect the government in some kind of way that you mention, I mean c'mon, even in India there is no such influence, India is becoming less influenced among the ruling class, the middle class, and everyone else, by strict religious principles. I think that the fantasies some devotees have in thinking that the world is going to somehow surrender to Hare Krishna devotees is quite silly. Krishna is in control of all governments and everything else at all times. Coming to the level of being conscious of that is what you should be concerned with, rather then unrealistic fantasies that all of your problems will be solved when devotees "take control".

 

The goal of Sri Caitanya's descent is not to take over governments, it is to elevate you and me to seeing His hand in all things, in all people, to enter into a higher state of consciousness and to see the world around you in that state of consciousness.

 

From Krishna instructing Uddhava in the Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Uddhava, the Supreme Lord gives life to every living being and is situated within the heart along with the life air and primal sound vibration. The Lord can be perceived in His subtle form within the heart by one's mind, since the Lord controls the minds of everyone, even great demigods like Lord Siva. The Supreme Lord also assumes a gross form as the various sounds of the Vedas, composed of short and long vowels and consonants of different intonations.

 

 

All results of fruitive work have been arranged within this world by Me, the supreme creator acting as the force of time. Thus one sometimes rises up toward the surface of this mighty river of the modes of nature and sometimes again submerges.

 

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

 

 

According to My instructions, one should fix the mind on Me alone. If, however, one continues to see many different values and goals in life rather than seeing everything within Me, then although apparently awake, one is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream.

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"Maybe in a few years all the guru camps can become united in the service of Srila Prabhupada and Prabhupada's hopes of the Hare Krishna Movement taking over the government will come to fruition. That is what is needed for us karmis up here in the Northwest. We need the slaughterhouses and the wine shops to be closed down by the government or it is my fear our spiritual progress will remain stunted."

 

I hope that the different Vaishnava camps will come to understand and appreciate one another in the next few years.

 

As to the Hare Krishna Movement taking over the government:

 

- I'm not sure that we are even remotely qualified to do that, since we have such hard time governing ourselves.

 

- Your idea of government closing down slaughterhouses and wine shops is utopian at best. Even under Vedic kings there was meat eating and intoxication, and the society on average was much, much more spiritual than now.

 

The spititual progress of individuals and societies is dependent on the consciousness, not government mandate. Drugs are illegal now, yet drug abuse is as high as ever. In Vedic times drugs were legal and drug abuse was almost non-existent.

 

Lord Krishna would give us the world in 48 hours if we were qualified - Srila Prabhupada said so himself. We have made a mess of what Krishna and Prabhupada gave us thus far - why would they give us more? So we could ruin it with our ignorance and pride?

[vijay]

"As far as Prabhupada saying something about taking over the U.S government, man that is really a fantasy, I don't know how you think that will ever come even close to happening. Around 40% of Americans are fanatically Christian. The rest are either fanatically not interested in any kind of religious influence over the government, or they are atheists and agnostics. Krishna conscious influence in America will never affect the government in some kind of way that you mention"

 

I think "never" is a word in a fools dictiontary, prabhupada before he left india was told that mahaprabhus prophecy shouldnt be taken literally, but prabhupada having firm conviction went to a country and a time where free sex and breaking most of the regs was the norm at a time when governements were getting more materialistsic, no one could imagine whites,black, christians and even muslims turning to Krishna conciousness but it was done.

 

I remember tribhuvantha prabhu telling us a story about how him and a few devotees were taking prabhupada around london, tribhuvantha prabhu proudly said to prabhupada that one of the queens gaurds gaurding the palace was srilaprabhupadas disciples, prabhupada took the comment and replied "what about the queen?"

 

I agree we have to become serious and we have a long way to go but even one powerful devotee can do so much for the world. Mahaprabhus order was that we all become gurus, his prophecy that his names will be sung in every town and villiage which still has to be fullfilled the begining laid down by his divine grace. I heard that bhaktisiddhanta saraswati takhur used to go sleep with a map of london above his head. Prabhupada taught us to shoot for the rhino and similtanously become purified. He him self tried to persuade leaders and famous people writing letters (changing many) to them and wrote so much about how our governments should change he was convinced it could happen and wanted us to be convinced, his diciples were convinced and because of that they tried and got many famous guys to become KC, I think sometimes we lack faith in krishna and think someting is impossible from our small assesment of things. On the mundane level yes it seems impossible just like it would of seemed impossible for a 70 yearold man to spread krishna conciousness all over the world by engaging the lowest of the lowest. On the spritual platform nothing is impossible.

 

 

 

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

I think Iskcon 1st needs to find out about who devotee really is. I have phoned London temple 3 times, e-mailed 4 times. To request Bhakta Programme, I haven't heard anything, I have no idea what the problem is. Frankly it doesn't really bother me. Sometimes I can be easy going kind of a person. I will just go to another temple. Maybe Birmingham. [not Iskcon].

 

All this propaganda that prabhupada said don't go to my Godbrothers has destroyed Iskcon outside and inside. I don't know who is instrepretating what Prabhupada is saying. But whoever it is is not of Brahmana descent. Neither should they even be trying to intrepretate it.

 

In the folio I have been thousands of letters from Prabhupada to his own Godbrothers. Prabhupada is a Pure devotee, humble. These Political devotees are saying something else. You can judge. Of cource Prabhupada said some Godbrothers were envious but now we can judge and have eyes to see who is and who isn't. On some letters Iskcon is destroying itself. You know why?

 

Offend one devotee...

 

YOU WILL sooner or later offend another. Its the mind metality, habit. haribol!

[theist]

Srila Prabhupada kept high goals. And why not with Krsihna controlling. But I have noticed one thing about Krishna devotees. The empowered preachers never seem satisfied. If the queen was to become a devotee then "What about the king?" If one planet becomes Krsna conscious then what about that other one over there?

 

Personally they are satisfied and want nothing. Yet they are workaholics in Krishna's service.

[krsna]

 

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Don't say it. Krishna will be, yep.

[krsna]

k

 

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[krsna]

I had been studying yoga when by chance [?] I moved near an Iskcon temple (August 1977) and started to read the books and attend the programs. At first I accepted Iskcon as bona fide practitioners of bhakti yoga, why ? I had read of bhakti yoga as being a necessary component of the yoga system and Iskcon's books appeared authentic to me, not that I was very educated about these things at the time.

 

There came a point a few months down the road when I had moved away to a nearby new age healing center "commune", It was bought by a wealthy hippie and he wanted to turn this fabulous facility into a healing center, so he asked a bunch of people to come and move there and be a part of it.

 

We were not interested in labor that needed to be done so he hired a bunch of mexican migrants to do the work while the rest of us just goofed off and hung out.

 

I spent a lot of time studying the Bhagavatam and the Gita, although my knowledge was very limited I had an experience which would give me faith beyond the mental level, I had the truth of what I was reading revealed to me, directly.

 

So here I was with little knowledge and unshakable faith, I moved into the ashrama as this was what I believed was my duty. (beginning of 1978)

 

I perceived all of the devotees as far beyond my position and practically worshipped them, I engaged in worshipping Bhaktivedanta Swami with full submissiveness.

 

 

I first started going to the temple while Bhaktivedanta Swami was very sick and didn't join until after He left, and I was not aware of any management or internal schisms between His disciples and the zonal acarya's and their backers until later.

 

In Southern California the temple presidents were all big supporters of Ramesvara, so there was no open dissension among the leaders of the temples and the zonal guru as there appears to have been elsewhere. In fact I can remember the temple presidents telling me repeatedly the "glories" of Ramesvara and how He was a pure devotee and how we should surrender to Him, they were instrumental in creating the aura of supermen(the gurus) among us new devotees, No doubt this was all about instilling devotion so we would go out and collect funds in order to please our "pure devotee spiritual master". I remember being told that how much money we collected was a sign of our devotion to our guru.

 

In southern California Ramesvara was obsessed with being the top zone, which of course meant being the one which collected the most money, Bhagavatam classes regularly became transformed into bizarre sessions on firing up the devotees for competition with other zones, especially Jayatirtha's which was the main competitor, this didn't happen when I first joined , but after around a year or two it became all about the money and competition.

 

I remember during a "christmas marathon" how Ramesvara would be waiting for us to get back late at night in the room where we would go to drop off our collections, He wanted to know on the spot how much we had collected, so nightly we would all count it out in front of Him, we would receive either a look of disgust or delight depending on how much we collected, it is clear to me now how He knowingly abused our faith and ignorance, using Prabhupadas teachings about serving your guru in such a cretinous way.

 

Iskcon's "celebrity" non gurus were the people who collected the most funds, they were our new role models, the new devotees were constantly hearing from the reports during the morning programs of which temples collected the most money, and whomever collected the most money were then given status as the great devotees, and we were supposed to show him deference as a Maha Bhagavata as He made the rounds "firing up "sankirtan devotees" in the various zones.

 

I remember Praghosa, Tripurari, Vaisesika [nice people] etc. all became Iskcon celebrities due to their fund collecting ability, this is what I most remember of that time, the use of collecting money as a tool of control over peoples minds and the negative effect over their emotional/spiritual well being this produced if they were unable to live up to the expectations. Many scandals came of that kind of modus operandi, especially among the womens parties, The attitude was "use em up and then hang them out to dry when they were no longer of monetary value".

 

I left Iskcon when in 1981 I was fed up with L.A and went up to Iskcon San Francisco, by chance Dhira Krsna and Brahma had just returned from India and Sridhara Maharaja's math and were also staying at Atreya Rsi's temple in the upper Haight district.

 

I was there when a number of GBC men flew in to try and convince Dhira Krsna to not start a Sridhar Math in the Bay area (which was His stated intention).

 

I listened in as they had debates in his room, My room was next door and the walls were thin so I heard everything, Dhira Krsna is quite expert at speaking and was able to philosphically leave the GBC men at a lack of words to defend their position. At one point when Jayapataka was there all of a sudden Hansadutta showed up, He accussed Jayapataka of stealing His gold ( $1 million he said ) when He took over Hansaduttas philippines temple, He was very upset and demanded his gold back.

 

Anyways, compared to these shenanigans and the money centric rasa down south Dhira Krsna seemed like an oasis of sanity.

 

So I joined up with Him and Brahma and we went looking for a house, eventually He settled on an impressive architectually famous house in San Jose, this was right before "silicon valley" was born so housing prices were quite low in San Jose compared to now.

 

For me this was when I officially left Iskcon [i would spend a little amount of time later in temples while traveling around], although I only stayed with the Sridhar Math for a very short time I was able to learn a lot of the inner political realities within Iskcon, many devotees from around Iskcon came to visit, even Acyutananda Swami!.

 

Since then I have seen the Sridhar movement grow into quite a large phenomena, I have seen the gradual disintegration of the zonal acharya phenomena and the rise of various Gaudiya Maths and other groups, I have no affiliation with any group.

 

As far as initiation goes, My feeling is that of live and let live, if everyone was to respect each others views, either diksa from a guru or ritvik or whatever, then that would serve everyone's interests, when we make a campaign against another group and their preferred conception then they will do the same back to us, the result is that everyone ends up looking the fool and very un-spiritual. We need to openly let all conceptions be acceptable, then we can all work together as one family without having our reputations besmirched and all the attending results of open warfare between camps.

 

I do feel Iskcon can change though, where there is a will there is a way, ultimately the destiny of Iskcon is already written out and really we are all actors on Sri Gaurangas stage.

 

 

 

I used to think like most of you about raganuga sadhana. When Sudhir Goswami first brought over to San Francisco Sridhar Maharaja's tapes (1981), I was able to listen and this was when my interest in learning about the details of manjari bhava and raganuga was piqued. While I had read of such things in Caitanya Caritamrta, I had not seen it as a perogative in terms of time and energy spent in trying to really understand it, after all I was in Iskcon and my time was spent in such day to day concerns as physical service and the study of sastra for the purpose of learning, rather then development of rasa.

 

Upon hearing Sridhar Maharaja speak about manjari bhava and rasa it was like another reality opened up in my understanding of the real purpose of sadhana bhakti, instead of reading sastra soley to learn philosophy I was now seeing another purpose as well, developing an inner relationship with Radha Krishna.

 

Shortly thereafter I moved to Honolulu, Hawaii. Since I had left Iskcon and was interested in pursuing a different aspect of sadhana then what they were focused on I had no desire to have anything to do with the temple there. I spent a few hours a day collecting money "hitting up" the tourists for donations in the way I had been trained and that gave me enough money to live on. It was easy because Japanese honeymooners choose Hawaii as their main destination, the newly wed husbands were easy pickings because they didn't want to look cheap in front of their wives (this is what I had learned a few years earlier). This gave me a lot of time to do what I wanted.

 

The University of Hawaii library has a book exchange program with India, they have an entire floor of books from India, including both english and native languages. I found that they had many books by the goswamis and by other gaudiya authors as well, they had all of Bhaktivedantas books, Bhaktisiddhantas, Bhaktivinoda's and others.

 

So I spent the better part of every day studying these books for almost 1 year. Mostly I studied the books of Krsnadas Kaviraja, Rupa Goswami, Sanatana Goswami and Bhaktivinoda, although many others to a lesser extent. My mood was trying to understand manjari bhava and the process of internalizing the teachings.

 

I had no guidance from any breathing person, all of my instructions came from books. Essentially I began to practice raganuga sadhana, although it was in my own unique way based on the writings of Rupa as my template in understanding the mood of Radha Krsna and the lila of vraja, his plays were my guides in understanding that mood and the personalities of Radha, Krsna and the rest.

 

So my mood and understanding was very different then what I had been exposed to in ISKCON or even in Sridhars Temple, from reading I could see that the real mood of Vraja was erotic and lighthearted, it seemed to be a sophisticated comedy with an emphasis on the erotic play. This is how I came to understand rasa.

 

In ISKCON temple life the emphasis had been on physcial service, the attitude towards development of an internal relationship with Radha Krsna was not discussed, philosophical discussions had to do with anything but that. Radha Krsna was worshipped in the mood of either awe and reverence or in the mood of overwhelming humility i.e I am too fallen to deal directly with them. Any kind of reference to rasa was always in the mood of seperation, or a kind of sturm und drang vision of the rasa between Radha and Krsna or the Gopis and Krsna or Mahaprabhu and Krsna.

 

My new vision was completely different, the Dana Keli Kaumudi of Sri Rupa was now my new template for envisioning rasa lila, although I also had a chance to read Gita Govinda at the library, it was Rupa's lighthearted erotic farce's that touched me as emblematic of rasa lila, and this is how I approached the matter internally.

 

In my study of Gita Govinda and Rupa's plays I had initially been perplexed by the contradictory moods of intense misery and seperation in Gita Govinda contrasted with it's opposite mood of lighthearted erotic comedy in the plays. The moods seemed like they were too different to make sense to me as both being truely representative of rasa lila. Then it came to me, Gita Govinda was totally symbolic and metaphorical in nature. Mahaprabhu cited Jayadeva's work as the apotheosis of Bhagavata siddhanta, Rupa was the assigned acarya for rasa, yet the two moods were at opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

At the same time my vision of Radha Krsna tattva had changed. By intense study of Caitanya Caritamrta it had become obvious to me that my previous vision of Radha and Krsna as two distinct people had been totally wrong. I had been under the misunderstanding of seeing them as they are portrayed in lila as being entirely accurate in it's portrayal of their ontological position. In ISKCON Radha and Krsna are portrayed as two people in love, this is also how lila is presented in general. So this is how I understood rasa lila until that time, everything was about being a part of the lila that had as it's raison d' etre the rasa between Radha and Krsna, and to a lesser degree Krsna and the gopis.

 

Which I came to see as a basic mistake in trying to understand rasa.

 

While trying to reconcile Gita Govinda and the lighthearted comedies, while studying Caitanya Caritamrta and Brhad Bhagavatamrtam, it became obvious as to what the truth is.

 

Gita Govinda is all about the pangs of seperation that Radha goes through while Krsna is enjoying with others, she cannot enjoy Krsna, and this causes her distress.

 

This is a metaphor, although not as the commentators usually like to make it out to be, it is not about the jivas seperation from God, rather it is about God's seperation from the jiva.

 

Radha cannot enjoy Krsna, this is the seperation at the heart of the story, this is the apotheosis of the entire Bhagavata canon.

 

Yet we know that Radha and Krsna are one and the same, they are never seperate, they are one soul, one being, one person in two forms, there can never be true seperation between them.

 

But the inability to enjoy Krsna is the heart and soul of the story, Radha is going through transformations of seperation inspired misery, this is meant to teach us something about the essential character of rasa lila. Radha cannot enjoy Krsna. She is Krsna, they are one and the same person. What appears as rasa between them in lila, is play acting, due to this simple fact. She canot enjoy a real rasa or relationship with Herself i.e Krsna. And this is the cause of the symbolic distress. She turns towards her intimates, towards others for relief, for rasa, this is the symbolic message at the inner heart of Bhagavata siddhanta. Radha is supreme, She is Krsna's enjoying aspect or hladini, She is in need, Krsna cannot satisfy her longing for intimacy because they are the same person, it is to her intimates that she turns.

 

After coming to this understanding from then on my sadhana took a very different route, Krsna's desires and association were no longer seen as the raison d'etre of rasa lila, everything was seen in a new light, what was once read and understood in one way, now revealed another hidden dimension to me.

 

By internalizing this realization in my sadhana I began to get results, whereas previously everything was on the mental plane of dealing with these concepts intellectually. Gradually I had the truth revealed directly, of course it takes a thorough understanding of the nature of atma/paramatma, but once this is understood and the true nature of rasa is understood as well, then the truth is revealed from within, your rasa need not wait until you gain a new body, wherever you are, God is always with you.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

I would like to know where you live, when I goto India.

 

I would like to see you.! Even if you not want see me.

 

Kidding aside, i hope I can soon. Hare Krishna. Dandabats.

 

Sorry if I caused any offence, I do it all the time.

[AncientMariner]

I was probably just on one of my manic phases dreaming that Krishna Consciousness could have an effect on the government. Guess I better get back on the medication although I gotta admit if the meds actually work this time I am going to miss the highs. Back to mundane debates like gay marriage etc. for another 427,000 years.

 

 

"I got my mind right boss."

[Guest guest]

Interesting bio from Shiva

I'd like to know where he finds himself now in his soul searching adventures?

[Guest guest]

"Ripple"

 

If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine

And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung

Would you hear my voice come through the music

Would you hold it near as it were your own?

 

It's a hand-me-down, the thoughts are broken

Perhaps they're better left unsung

I don't know, don't really care

Let there be songs to fill the air

 

 

Ripple in still water

When there is no pebble tossed

Nor wind to blow

 

 

Reach out your hand if your cup be empty

If your cup is full may it be again

Let it be known there is a fountain

That was not made by the hands of men

 

There is a road, no simple highway

Between the dawn and the dark of night

And if you go no one may follow

That path is for your steps alone

 

 

Ripple in still water

When there is no pebble tossed

Nor wind to blow

 

 

You who choose to lead must follow

But if you fall you fall alone

If you should stand then who's to guide you?

If I knew the way I would take you home

 

 

 

---------------------

 

 

 

"Eyes of the World"

 

Right outside this lazy summer home

you don't have time to call your soul a critic, no

Right outside the lazy gate of winter's summer home

wondering where the nuthatch winters

Wings a mile long just carried the bird away

 

Wake up to find out

that you are the eyes of the World

but the heart has its beaches

its homeland and thoughts of its own

Wake now, discover that you

are the song that the morning brings

but the heart has its seasons

its evenings and songs of its own

 

 

There comes a redeemer

and he slowly too fades away

There follows a wagon behind him

that's loaded with clay

and the seeds that were silent

all burst into bloom and decay

The night comes so quiet

and it's close on the heels of the day

 

 

Wake up to find out

that you are the eyes of the world

but the heart has its beaches

its homeland and thoughts of its own

Wake now, discover that you

are the song that the morning brings

but the heart has its seasons

its evenings and songs of its own

 

 

Sometimes we live no

particular way but our own

Sometimes we visit your country

and live in your home

Sometimes we ride on your horses

Sometimes we walk alone

Sometimes the songs that we hear

are just songs of our own

 

 

Wake up to find out

that you are the eyes of the world

but the heart has its beaches

its homeland and thoughts of its own

Wake now, discover that you

are the song that the morning brings

but the heart has its seasons

its evenings and songs of its own