Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 hare krishna.. i try to follow your message in my opinion the definition of the ones who belong to a particular caste that you bring are not negating the fact that a difference in charachter and behaviour, so also social behaviour, can be found in the spiritual world.. so there's a social difference between a village girl and an the king's priest in the material world due to their karma and guna... and there's difference between the behaviour of sri lalita devi and sri gargamuni in the spiritual world. Their belonging to a varna is exclusively to give pleasure to krsna if you say that varna means only "material social cathegory" i ask you wich is the name for the "spiritual social cathegories" that are undoubtely present in the spiritual world .. no one of the meanings you are listing of "varna" seems to me unrelated with the others and i see all neutral meanings, or all meanings not necessarily bounded to material world .. then i do not like to continue... i have no will to defend myself from a speculation about my supposed racism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 ------ and it is not a lesser important subject, if we cut out portions of variety from the spiritual world, we soon fall in impersonalism and mayavadism ------ No that is not what is being said. The gunas are absent but that does not mean there is no variety. The gunas in combination dictate the the pyscho/physical make up that is classified under 4 main headings. . . . . i had no intention to say that in spiritual world we are still conditioned by material gunas created by karmic interactions... but we do have spiritual gunas (=features (another neutral word)) that are manifested exclusively for krsna's pleasure krsna is called also "guna grahi".. full of infinite features so gunas and varnas are there in both worlds, but they are of completely different nature it is like when we use the word "person" or "love".. we use them for both worlds but the real principles have only a little resemblance between them.. thing that we'll understand when we'll be liberated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 I have quickly exhausted what little I know or think I know on the subject. I tried to offer what I consider to be a more exacting understanding of how varna as color may harmonize with social order, as skin color seems to be less accurate. But I should not attempt such speculations on subjects not known to me. I have never been good with word definitions anyway. And how it all relates to rasa well that is certainly well beyond even any theoretical knowledge I may have picked up. I beg out with respects, Hare Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Dandavats Prabhus This is indeed a deep subject, not so much to be speculated on by those who are not on a God-realized platform. Rather the question needs to be asked to authoritive acharayas, even then the answer may not be accepted or even received if it doesn't ring a bell with our conception or understanding. That doesn't deny individual devotees insights, as, if you think about it, not for too long though, but all record and information of the spiritual world hasn't been recorded in the very limited accounts of the Vedas etc. by their own admission. They fall far short. That world is ever-dynamic, ever-new, ever-fresh with infinite wonder of infinite perspective which is evident in such works given by the Goswamis. Take for instance the view of the gopis feet from the perspective of a blade of grass, or an ant, or Srimati Jamuna when they are washing, even the very particles of dust are conscious and have a story to tell, maybe the length of every scripture written on Earth. All are serving the feet of the main players. Actually in just one moment of one pastime of one devotee of the Lord there are so many inconceivable perspectives. And that is why it is futile for us to think we know what is what in that dimention, based on our speculation, realization or limited understanding of shastra. Once again the vibration of our tongues in english especially or even sanscrit fails to express or even conceive the beauty of one gopis toe nails, what to speak of the workings of Krishnas world. But by no means give up, for it is the perfection of the soul in its' endless quest to serve these pure reverlations with our time, energy and all the dedication we can muster. How fortunate to be even thinking of such a conception, even if we are wrong or right. But we should at least try to open our souls to the reception of what has been and always being given at every moment and enter that glorious gift. Go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 dear theist prabhu.. my obeisances... harekrishna!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumedh Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam Dear devotee then i do not like to continue... i have no will to defend myself from a speculation about my supposed racism I am really sorry if you got the impression that i was trying to project your racial inclinations. My point was that as regards the definition and usage of varna in different situations the two uses as colour and material nature are not related. Probably you are not aware of the huge destruction of the Vedic culture that has been brought about in the past (and continues to) by twisting such interpretations (and of course caste by birth issue). This has killed the true varnashrama system and as a result so many disturbances... I understand that your meaning is different, but in my opinion we must be very careful about this and avoid it for they are unrelated as regards their definitions; seriously though i fail to understand your position that complexion has a relation to varnashrama or your example from Bhagavatam. The definition as in varnashrama has no relation to that of colour, though we may find some similarity between them by comparing the three modes to colours as theist prabhu has done, but these are only for us to understand the things -- just a kind of model. if you say that varna means only "material social cathegory" i ask you wich is the name for the "spiritual social cathegories" that are undoubtely present in the spiritual world Kulapavanaji has already answered this as rasa. The material qualities as given by Krishna in the quote before (peacefulness, purity, heroism etc.) are perverted form of the original rasas. Consequently in the material realm there is a notion of good and bad, of sattva being best among the three etc., but in the transcendental realm there is no such categorization -- there the categorization is as in the five kinds of rasas, and the multitude of different kinds of transcendental mellows in each category. The varnashrama has been created by the Lord in this material world to aid us in coming to the true vaishnava platform. I understand the social categories in a different way than yourself, namely the embodiment of certain material qualities suitable for a particular position, rather than as a group; if a group is what you refer to then one answer would be Radharani's group, Chandravali's group, Krishna's group, Lord Baladeva's group, Lord Narayana's group etc. but then this is not probably what you ask for. I have not seen anywhere any reference to varnashrama in the spiritual world and as far as i can see varnashrama by itself is a result of the nature of perverted reflection and not a reflection of something in spiritual world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 4, 2005 Report Share Posted March 4, 2005 and mine to you kind guestji. Jaya Radhe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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