Is Paramatma Formless?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Jaiva-Dharma

Chapter 11: Nitya-Dharma & Idolatry

Page 264

By Narayana Maharaja

 

Enjoying reading this book!

 

Quoting-

Goracanda: [suddha-Vaishnava]

The first characteristic of Bhagavan is complete aisvarya (opulence), which refers to the ultimate limit of greatness and minuteness. The second characteristic is that He is the most powerful, because He possesses all saktis (sarva-saktimatta). That which is beyond the reach of human intellect is governed by Isvara's acintya-sakti (inconceivable potency), by which He simultaneously possess form, and is formless. If one thinks that Isvara cannot have form, one rejects His acintya-sakti, by which Bhagavan manifests His eternal form and pastimes before His bhaktas. Allah, brahma, or Paramatma are nirakara (formless), so they do not have any special wonderful characteristics.

 

 

I do not understand this part-

"Allah, brahma, or Paramatma are nirakara (formless), so they do not have any special wonderful characteristics."

 

I am not sure in what context this is being said. But if I am reading right then, If Paramatma possess no form [brahman] then how is it that all forms of Godhead emanate from this expansion of Krishna? I am most baffled by this statement.

I really wish to know clearly about this.

 

Ps. What really confuses me is the use of the word Brahma [brahmajyoti]. In the same sentence when describing Paramatma as formless. Explain!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I tried to find my copy of the book in the original english edition - alas!

i do not remember ever having read this in the original translation, however primitive that was considered. (why else make a new translation?)

[Guest guest]

Moreover, it sounds like the siddhanta is way off, for SP had pictures made of paramatma - a visnu form. Brahman must be read for Brahma. Allah is considered impersonal by the muslims, but it is not sure whether Allah truly is formless because of that consideration.

To me it sounds highly speculative - without wanting to offend anyone - to say that paramatma is impersonal, since the bhagavatam says that the absolute truth is known in three features - brahman, paramatma and bhagavan and declares the brahman to be the effulgence or impersonal feature, paramatma to sit in everyone's heart and bhagavan to be the person you see, when the effulgence is removed.

Krsna also says that he sits in everyone's heart and from him come knowledge, ignorance and forgetfulness.

I tend to believe krsna, I don't know about anyone else.

for the last two posts,

VdK

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

But Paramatma is within each and every atom, neotron, electron. So in this way Krishna is all-prevading, so this feature could be called Formless, but when the Brahmajyoti is uncovered then the Form is revealed.

 

Just like Impersonalists [some Muslims] say God is impersonal because He is omnipresent [Present everywhere]. So in this way they conclude God cannot have form.

 

By the way this converstion was to some Muslims in Jaiva-dharma. I hope some more regular devotees can speak on this.

[Guest guest]

GOD FOREVER POSSESSES A FORM. To believe he doesnt is greater than the 5 great sins. I am a hindu and a swaminarayan. Bhangwan Swaminarayan was posed this very question in many forms in the Vachanamrut. He has said, amongst other things: 'how can God create a universe with a form if he himself is formless'

 

Answering the common gripe of God being present in everything, Swaminarayan Bhagwan was also asked this question. His response was on the lines of: 'God eternally possesses a form in Akshardham (heaven) He never leaves that akshardham. So how does he pervade everything. The answer is that he does so through his yogic powers. By remaining in Akshardham, he can hear things from universes away, he can see things from light years away etc. Indeed, if great yogis of the past could do this, then what is so hard to believe that God, the controller of EVERYTHING also being able to do it?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

That wasn't the point. What I was asking was about formlessness in the all-prevading sence. You just stated it that by Yogic powers God possess omnipresence. So God is both formeless and possess form. If you say He only has form then you making Him incomplete. Anyway I your view point was most nice about Yogic. It says Krishna is the Master of all Yogic powers-!

[Guest guest]

maybe i wasn't clear. i think that the yohic powers stuff does answer the question. Let me qyuote exactly:

 

The question posed to God was: "It is generally said that Bhrahma pervades everywhere. But how can something that is pervasive be said to possess a form? Also, how can something that possesses a form be called parvasive? That is the question"

 

The answer is:

 

"Brahma resides in only one place, but not everywhere. That brahma is Shri Krishna Bhangwan; He is in all places while still residing in only one place. For example, when a person worships Surya, Surya grants the person a vision like his own. Then, that person can see as far as Surya's vision reaches. Also ,a person who has attained yogic powers can hear people who may be thousands of millions of miles away, as if they are speaking next to him. In fact, he is able to pick up an object that may be millions of miles away, even though his arms are the same size as any other human's. Similarly, when Shri Krishna Bhagwan wishes to give darshan somewhere, He gives his darshan there while residing in one place. Even though He has only one form, He appears in countless forms. In fact, is a person who is a realised yogi has extraordinary powers such as long-distance hearing and long-distance vision, then what is so surprising about God also possessing such powers?

 

So, even though the scriptures describe God as pervasive, He actually possesses a definite form. In those scriptures he is described as pervasive in the sense that using His own powers, He gives darshan to all while residing in one place. But HE is not pervasive in the sense of being formless like akash. So, in reality, God eternally possesses a form. It is that God with a definite form, who, while always residing in Akshardham, appears in countless millions of brahmands"

 

That is Bhagwans Swaminarayan's answer, i quote

[theist]

 

I hope some more regular devotees can speak on this.

 

 

 

Nobody should just be believed because they have been around a long time. Vdk is a disciple of Sridhar Maharaja and is has been for some time. His words deserve contemplation, not blind agreement, but consideration.

 

Why can't Paramatma be seen as both formless and with form? The Brahman is Krsna aura. It is not that the Brahman is completely separate from Krsna and the form and formless are in a competition for occupying a limited amount of space.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

For what it is worth I'm just an insignificant jiva that may or may not have a clue, God's ways are very mystical, we can only submit our lives to reveal what He chooses.

 

To start with for me Krsna is the Supreme Absolute Truth there is room for the accomodation of anything and everything in his Absoluteness if something is outside, then He wouldn't be Absolute.

The next thing is that whatever you may think, He is more than that, we can't pidgon hole God with our amoeba brains, stuffing Him into our filing system, with some fixed conception forever and a day, for He is forever unchangable and at the same time full of infinite variagatedness, as much as many would believe, He doesn't have to wear a yellow dhoti every day He gets up from bed. He does have imagination and it's not boring. You could also say He is constantly reinventing Himself, while remaining Adi Purush. He answers to no one at the same time as He answers all. He is for Himself and By Himself, and yet is simultaneously reciprocating loving exchanges. There is nowhere He isn't. And yet if Srimati Thakurani can't find Him, Who can?

 

So Param atma can rearrange Himself like a vapor at will, perhaps a crude example is an exquisite genie, He can make Himself known to anyone if He chooses, and if not He can dissolve from our inner vision.

 

From my experience and what I've heard, read, and realized from all of that is that the system of paramatma is more or less a monitoring, wittnessing omnipresence like video surveilance from within, that is programmed so to speak along side the seperate jiva, intergrated into the system of our consciousness, but aloof from it as long as we are sleeping, when awakened we can choose to seek some interaction with this host of our heart. The more we make aligned correct decisions that are being transmitted from this well wisher the more evident His presence in our consciousness becomes, at the same time we can perceive that atomic spark in all other living entities.

 

Just as the Holy Name is pure vibration, so too is Paramatma pure vibration, extremely subtle, and only visible to the spiritual vision. It's all in the eyes of the seer, if paramatma wishes to reveal a representative vision of His prescence than that is possible, as are all things.

 

I don't know if it's an artists thing, but I personally have had the same vision of that Lord in the heart infinitely more animated, in deep meditation that Prabhupads artist disciples portayed in his books before I saw those pictures, so it wasn't auto suggested. To me He was exquisitly beautiful, charming, hypnotic and very personal, But I can't say that it wasn't my own vivid imagination, only that there was no preconceived desire to see or experience such a vision. I just accept it as a gracious grant from that inner world.

It is a personal revelation that I would'nt usually share in public, but at the same time it appears to be a somewhat common shared experience among those who practice Yoga and meditation.

Also it doesn't nessacarily mean that experiencing Paramatma we are automaticly attuned to every guiding transmission that is broadcast, desires and free will can still lead us astray from the spirit of that interaction.

 

Paramatma and brahmajhoti realization are a common goal for the Yogis and gnanis and generally not so attractive to the Devotees as they are devoid of service, often times self serving instead of Guru vaisnava Bhagavan serving, real surrender starts with Swayam Bhagavan realization and acting on it thru seva, so in this context they may have no special or wonderful characteristics, but to some Yogis they can be charmed even by their own soul realization what to speak of Paramatma.

We need to decide who God is to us. And from that we will usually be directed to an association that practice their service around the vani of that conception of God and a common guru or Guru varga. Our Guru will then externally confirm or deny our experiences, fine tuning our lives to please his Guru and the Divine couple.

 

I do get the feeling that Krsna has this system in place to attend the dimentions outside his Goloka pastimes where He is simply enjoying Himself and His exchanges with his nitya parishads. Any thing is possible with that tricky Hynotist He can put our whole creation under a spell just to surprise us with an inconceivable welcoming home party.

 

If we are all coming from a spark of the infinite Lord than it stands that He must be in that, for we exist in Krsnas' consciousness.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Anyway yeah,

 

Even though it says the Brahmajyoti emanates from Krishna, you have to ask yourself what it is?

 

For us in this material world everything in exsistance has the Paramatma feature enabled inside it. So is this Paramatma feature inside the Brahmajyoti light as well?

 

I tend to believe the formless talked about in scriptures is to our own eyes formless. But when you go deeper its the Form which prevades. This I have concluded so far.

 

Sankracharya would disagree and say its the Brahmajyoti which is prominent. But this talks about formlessnes and nothing much esle. There is no rasa or taste of Krishna pastimes in the Brahmajyoti. Which Sankracharya says is out eternal resting place.

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Hare Krishna

 

I tend to also believe depending on what mode of nature you are in. You will be inclined to believe certain doctrines. For example Sriman Sankracharya oneness could be for people mostly in the mode of ignorance [i know that sounds funny].

 

But who can understand Krishna form without being in mode of Goodness? Even while worhipping the diety it takes times to percieve that the diety is in fact Krishna Himself.

[Guest guest]

Pankaja you asked:

 

 

If Paramatma possess no form [brahman] then how is it that all forms of Godhead emanate from this expansion of Krishna?

 

 

They don't all emanate from Paramatma. Baladeva is Krishna's first expansion.

 

 

KRSNA

Original Personality of Godhead

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BALARAMA

First expansion

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ORIGINAL CATUR VYUHA

Vasudeva, Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha

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SECOND CATUR VYUHA

Vasudeva, Sankarsana,¿ Pradyumna, Aniruddha

(each expands into three and then another two expansions)

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MAHA VISNU

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GARBHODAKASAYI VISNU

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KSIRODAKASAYI VISNU (Paramatma)

 

 

 

 

Paramatma is formless only in the sense that Paramatma is all pervading. But when considering that all Swamsa expansions of Krishna are all the same in essence, therefore they all have forms. Krishna is a form of Paramatma as is any other Swamsa expansion of Krishna a form of Paramatma. They are all one and the same all pervading consciousness, the same being, the same person. So any Swamsa form of Godhead is identical to Paramatma, and can therefore be said to be a form of Paramatma, because they are.

 

In the Paramatma feature Krishna is spread out over the material world. Everything is comprised of Paramatma, but at the same time Paramatma has other types of existence where that name is not used. Paramatma exists in the spiritual world as Yoga-Maya and as all the Swamsa incarnations of Godhead. Only in the material world is the term Paramatma applicable.

 

From Krishna speaking to Uddhava in the 11th canto of the Bhagavatam.

 

 

The Supersoul alone is the ultimate controller and creator of this world, and thus He alone is also the created. Similarly, the Soul of all existence Himself both maintains and is maintained, withdraws and is withdrawn. No other entity can be properly ascertained as separate from Him, the Supreme Soul, who nonetheless is distinct from everything and everyone else. The appearance of the threefold material nature, which is perceived within Him, has no actual basis. Rather, you should understand that this material nature, composed of the three modes, is simply the product of His illusory potency.

 

 

Is this what you wanted to know?

 

[Guest guest]

Why can't Paramatma be seen as both formless and with form? The Brahman is Krsna aura. It is not that the Brahman is completely separate from Krsna and the form and formless are in a competition for occupying a limited amount of space.

 

As my gurumaharaja explained, even in the atom he has form. SP said that the paramatma has form and is as large as your thumb, sitting in the heart.

there is of course no objection to paramatma being bigger than the atom, since he is a part and parcel of Krsna himself, who, as has been stated is the master of all yoga.

since he is almighty or all-powerful, he can do what he likes - also being bigger than the biggest or smaller than the smallest or having a form that is larger than the atom he occupies.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

So the formlessness is just a veil? There is actually no formlessness?

 

Is that inconcievable..

 

What I want to know is, what is formless?

 

Paramatma is within everything, atoms, neotrons.

--

 

 

Ok I find it interesting that Yoga-maya in the spiritual world works in same way as paramatma here in the material world, but under a different name.

 

I want to ask whether this is some kind of a science. Like looking under a miscroscope and there is paramatma?

 

I want to ask AGAIN. Does Scripture talk of formlessness in the sence that we cannot SEE Paramatama, except by meditation?

 

[theist]

 

As my gurumaharaja explained, even in the atom he has form. SP said that the paramatma has form and is as large as your thumb, sitting in the heart.

there is of course no objection to paramatma being bigger than the atom, since he is a part and parcel of Krsna himself, who, as has been stated is the master of all yoga.

since he is almighty or all-powerful, he can do what he likes - also being bigger than the biggest or smaller than the smallest or having a form that is larger than the atom he occupies.

 

 

Yes I accept what they are saying that Paramatma has form. What I was trying to say is that the formless Brahman is part of Krsna's form, an aspect. His form is His nature. It is not as though the brahmajyoti exists independently and completely separate of Paramatma.

[Guest guest]

In reply to:

 

Yes I accept what they are saying that Paramatma has form. What I was trying to say is that the formless Brahman is part of Krsna's form, an aspect. His form is His nature. It is not as though the brahmajyoti exists independently and completely separate of Paramatma.

 

--

Have you ever noticed some people just glow? that is of course part of themselves. similarly, the aggregate of souls that forms the breahmajyoti, is part and parcel of Krsna, but works indeed as a veil.

In the isopanisad it says:

"Please remove this glaring effulgence, so I can see you face to face."

[Guest guest]

Pankaja you said:

 

 

Paramatma is within everything, atoms, neotrons.

 

I want to ask whether this is some kind of a science. Like looking under a miscroscope and there is paramatma?

 

 

 

 

Krishna says in the 11th canto to Uddhava:

 

 

Gold alone is present before its manufacture into gold products, the gold alone remains after the products' destruction, and the gold alone is the essential reality while it is being utilized under various designations. Similarly, I alone exist before the creation of this universe, after its destruction and during its maintenance.

 

That which did not exist in the past and will not exist in the future also has no existence of its own for the period of its duration, but is only a superficial designation. In My opinion, whatever is created and revealed by something else is ultimately only that other thing.

 

Although thus not existing in reality, this manifestation of transformations created from the mode of passion appears real because the self-manifested, self-luminous Absolute Truth exhibits Himself in the form of the material variety of the senses, the sense objects, the mind and the elements of physical nature.

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

 

 

So this is Paramatma. It's not that Paramatma is just within everything, everything is comprised of Paramatma. Just like gold can be made into various gold products, still whether you have a gold ring, a gold bracelet, a gold wire, a gold cup, they are all gold. So whatever is manifest in this world is made of Paramatma as Krishna states above:

 

"[the] self-luminous Absolute Truth exhibits Himself in the form of the material variety of the senses, the sense objects, the mind and the elements of physical nature"

 

"Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me."

 

When sastra say that Paramatma is within the heart, that does not refer to the heart muscle. It refers to the ground or substratum of your soul, the heart of your consciousness, of reality, Paramatma is the soul of this world. Everything is manifest from and by Paramatma and is therefore nothing but Paramatma, as Krishna relates in an above verse.

 

Your consciousness exists within and is a part of Paramatma. Paramatma is all pervading, you exist as a single spark of consciousness within that all pervading field of consciousness. Your consciousness is therefore one and different from Paramatma. It is comprised of Paramatma, and therefore one with Paramatma. Yet it is distinct in it's individuality and it's essential nature of being localized, instead of all pervasive. And the jiva is without control, whereas Paramatma is the controlling principle.

 

Krishna says

 

 

According to My instructions, one should fix the mind on Me alone. If, however, one continues to see many different values and goals in life rather than seeing everything within Me, then although apparently awake, one is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream.

 

 

So here Krishna is speaking about Paramatma. Everything is within Paramatma, within Krishna. Everything is within and comprised of Paramatma. The duality a conditioned soul views the world with is an illusion. There is only God, everything is God and under the direction of God.

 

From Krishna:

 

 

The duality of the five material elements is perceived only in terms of names and forms. Those who say this duality is real are pseudoscholars vainly proposing fanciful theories without basis in fact.

 

That which did not exist in the past and will not exist in the future also has no existence of its own for the period of its duration, but is only a superficial designation. In My opinion, whatever is created and revealed by something else is ultimately only that other thing.

 

Although thus not existing in reality, this manifestation of transformations created from the mode of passion appears real because the self-manifested, self-luminous Absolute Truth exhibits Himself in the form of the material variety of the senses, the sense objects, the mind and the elements of physical nature.

 

 

[theist]

 

Have you ever noticed some people just glow? that is of course part of themselves. similarly, the aggregate of souls that forms the breahmajyoti, is part and parcel of Krsna, but works indeed as a veil.

In the isopanisad it says:

"Please remove this glaring effulgence, so I can see you face to face."

 

 

Yes I have. One of my most vivid memories is when Srila Prabhupada entered the temple room to give SB class. First each picture of Krsna on the wall to the left he passed he offered respects to with folded hands as he walked by towards the Deities. What was immediately striking was he was totally fixed on each picture of Krsna as he passed. He paid his respects to the Deities and then came back up the right side of the room to take his seat on the vyasasana. Same thing. Fortunate for me I was next to the wall and as he approached we all made a lane for him to pass by. I distinctly felt his aura pass through my body as he was only a foot or so away. It was very palpable. That was a very special and rare moment for me. When it is said that the pure devotee emanates ecstatic prema that is true in every conceivable sense.

 

You can also sense when a dark individual enters your space. So this emanates from the mind.

 

So from Krsna's mind emanates sat chit ananda which is personal or us. As you said the jivas in aggregate are the brahmajyoti. So I have had this question for a long time. Is the ultimate realization of the Brahman effulgence also personal? In that Krsna must surely see the individual jivas there in some way. There must be some differentiation even though the residents are unaware of it themselves. So when we say 'impersonal' do that just refer to the way we relate to that field as there is no rasa taking place. Do you get what I am trying to ask? What am I not seeing here?

[Guest guest]

In the sastra it is explained that the jiva loses individual conmsciousness in the brahmajyoti. whether krsna still percieves us as individual in there? I think you must ask Krsna.

the ultimate brahman realisation is impersonal for us - that is certain. whether Krsna perceives us so I doubt, for there is no necessity for it.

everything is as it is, from the necessity of the position. that is why some are kalpa vriksa and others surabhi cows, some are blades of grass - this is personal, since the position demands it. in the brahmajyoti, what position demands personal attention? none. so there will be no personal awareness from either side.

VdK.

[gHari]

When the Ultimate Truth is described in the Upanishads as "formlesswithout arms and legs" it means "without material form, without material arms and legs". He has arms and legs - but not like our mundane arms and legs. This is the meaning of formless in the Vedas.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains this in a lecture:<blockquote>Then Caitanya MahAprabhu says,

<center>

apANi-pA.da-zruti varje prAkRta pANi-caraNa

punaH kahe zIghra cale kare sarva grahaNa

</center>

This is the process is describing a spiritual understanding, with reference to the Vedic injunction. Now, SrI KRSNa Caitanya MahAprabhu is giving Vedic reference. He says, apANi-pA.da. This is a reference from the SvetAzvatara UpaniSad. In the SvetAzvatara UpaniSad there is statement, impersonally, but referring to the person, transcendental person. The mantra is like this:

<center>

apANi-pAdo javano grahItA

pazyaty acakSuH sa zRnoty akarNaH

sa vetti vedyaM na ca tasyAsti vettA

tam Ahur agryaM puruSaM mahAntam

</center>

PuruSam. PuruSam means person, but the Vedic mantra begins, apANi-pA.da: "Person, but has no leg and no hand." There are two kinds of statements: that He is person, puruSa, mahAnta, the greatest person, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, He is a person; but apANi-pA.da, but He has no legs and no hands. So how is that? A person has no legs and no hands, and still, He accepts whatever we offer? Just like KRSNa says, tad aham aznAmi, bhaktyA upahRtam aznAmi: "Anyone who offers Me anything," patraM puSpaM phalaM toyam, "with devotion," bhaktyA... The very word is bhaktyA. That means KRSNa is transcendental person, and the Vedic mantra confirms. When the Vedic mantra says, apANi-pA.da, "no hands, no legs," that is not imperson. "Person, but His hands and legs are not like us," that is apANi-pA.da. Caitanya MahAprabhu explains that. ApANi-pA.da zruti varje prAkRta pANi-caraNa: "When the Vedic mantra says that ‘The Absolute Truth has no legs and no hands,' that means that the Personality of Godhead's hands and legs are not material." That is Caitanya MahAprabhu's explanation.

<center>

apANi-pA.da zruti, veda-mantra, varje prakRta pANi-caraNa

na kahe zIghra cale kare sarva grahaNa

</center>

"And although the Vedic mantra says that ‘The Absolute Truth has no legs, no hands,' still, it confirms that ‘He can accept whatever you offer, and He can walk more speedily than anyone.' Then He walks; at the same time, He has no legs. And He accepts your offering; He has no hands." What does it mean? Apparently it is contradictory. If He has no leg, then how He can walk more speedily than anyone? These are Vedic mantras. "Nobody can capture Him, He is walking so speedily." But if He has no leg, how He is walking? But that, Caitanya MahAprabhu explains that varje prAkRta pANi-caraNa: "This means that the Supreme Personality of Godhead has no material body."

 

</blockquote>

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

I read yesterday in Jaiva-dharma [i could type it out, but being lazy].

 

A devotee ask the question, that how can Krishna be of medium height and still be all-prevading at the same time?

 

The answer given was very interesting indeed. The Vaishnava being asked the question said, that in the spiritual world the form [spiritual] is all-prevading, whereas in the material world it is so different.

 

To me this could start another debate. But there must be so many sastric verses describing spiritual bodies. Specifically the transcendental body of Lord krishna!

 

[theist]

 

In the sastra it is explained that the jiva loses individual conmsciousness in the brahmajyoti. whether krsna still percieves us as individual in there? I think you must ask Krsna.

the ultimate brahman realisation is impersonal for us - that is certain. whether Krsna perceives us so I doubt, for there is no necessity for it.

 

 

We know a successful mayavadi takes rest there for so long but then comes back to the material world. The same I goes in and the same I comes out. Interesting to think about.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

 

A devotee ask the question, that how can Krishna be of medium height and still be all-prevading at the same time?

 

 

 

I think you mean this:

 

 

Vrajanatha: But how can Sri Krsna be all-pervading if He has a medium-sized, human-like form? If we accept that He has form, it means He can only stay in one place at a time, and that gives rise to so many philosophical discrepancies. The first is that He cannot be the all-pervading tattva if He has a form and body. Secondly, if He has a body, He will be limited by the material modes of nature, so how can He be independent and have limitless and absolute authority? How can this be reconciled?

 

Babaji: My dear son, you are now thinking like this because you are bound by the qualities of maya. As long as the intelligence remains bound by material qualities, it cannot touch suddha-sattva. If such conditioned intelligence attempts to exceed its own limitations trying to understand suddha-tattva, it superimposes mayika forms and qualities on suddha-tattva, and thus conceives of a material form of Transcendence. After some time, the intellect rejects this form as being temporary, mutable, and subject to the material modes, and then it imagines the nirvisesa-brahma. That is why one cannot gain an understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth through the intelligence. Whatever limitations you are inferring about the transcendental, medium-sized form are completely unfounded. Formlessness, immutability, and inactivity simply comprise the material conception of what is opposite to our conception of material qualities, so they are themselves a type of material quality. However, Sri Krsna also has qualities that are of an altogether different nature: for example, His beautiful, blossoming, smiling face; His lotus eyes; His beautiful lotus feet, which bestow fearlessness and peace upon His bhaktas; and His spiritual form, which is the pure embodiment of transcendence, with limbs and body just suitable for varieties of playful sports. The medium sized çré-vigraha, that is the very basis of these two types of qualities (form and all pervasiveness), is supremely pleasing. The Narada-pancaratra describes His extreme attractiveness to the mind, and this description is replete with all siddhanta:

 

nirdosa-guna-vigraha atma-tantro

niscetanatmaka-sarira-gunais ca hinah

ananda-matra-kara-.-mukhodaradih

sarvatra ca svagata-bheda-vivarjitatma

 

Sri Krsna's transcendental body is composed of eternity, consciousness and bliss, without even a trace of material qualities. He is not subject to material time or space. On the contrary, He exists fully at all places and in all times simultaneously. His form and existence are the embodiment of absolute nonduality (advaya-jnana-svarupa-vastu).

 

Direction (space) is an unlimited entity in the material world. By material estimation, only a formless object can be unlimited or all-pervading; an entity with a medium-sized form cannot. However, this conception only applies in the material world. In the spiritual world, all objects and their intrinsic natures and attributes are unlimited, so Sri Krsna's medium-sized form is also allpervading. Medium-sized objects in this material world do not have this quality of all-pervasiveness, but it is charmingly manifest in Sri Krsna's medium-sized vigraha. That is the supra-mundane glory of His transcendental vigraha. Can such glorious attributes be found in the conception of the all-pervading brahma? Material substances are always limited by time and place. If an entity who is naturally beyond the effects of time is compared to the all-pervading sky, which is limited by time and space, then is not that entity, beyond the influence of time, incomparably greater? Sri Krsna's vraja-dhama is none other than the Brahma-pura which is mentioned within the Chändogya Upanisad. This vrajadhama is a completely transcendental reality, and is comprised of all types of transcendental variety. Everything in that place the earth, water, rivers, mountains, trees, creepers, animals, birds, sky, sun, moon and constellations is transcendental and is devoid of material flaws or shortcomings. Conscious pleasure is present always and everywhere, in its fullest form. My dear son, this Mayapura-Navadvipa is that self-same spiritual abode. You are unable to perceive it, however, because you are bound in maya's snare. But when, by the mercy of saints and sadhus, spiritual consciousness arises in your heart, you will then perceive this land as the spiritual dhama, and then only will you achieve the perfection of vraja-vasa (residence in Vraja). Who has told you that there must be material merits and faults wherever there is medium-sized form? You cannot realize the actual glories of the transcendental medium-sized form as long as your intelligence is bound up in material impressions.

 

 

 

Basically the logical contradiction of all-pervading and human-like vigraha form is only a mayika conception, and in the transcendental realm both these are true simultaneously. So Paramatma has a form but is still all-pervading.

[Guest guest]

The salient point made in the quote is this:

 

 

He exists fully at all places and in all times simultaneously. His form and existence are the embodiment of absolute nonduality (advaya-jnana-svarupa-vastu).

 

 

Here we are being told that Krishna exists fully everywhere, always. And then that His form, and that omnipresence existence, are absolutely non-dual.

 

This is how Krishna can have a human sized form and be omnipresent at the same time. His omnipresent existence and his human sized form are non-dual. To understand what that means we can compare our soul to Krishna's omnipresent nature. We are not non-dual, instead we are non-dual and dual at the same time with Krishna's omnipresent existence. We exist made up of a tiny section of Krishna's omnipresent existence, yet we are not the whole of that existence. Whereas Krishna in his human form is identical to his omnipresent existence because both types of Krishna's manifestations are 100% Krishna, they are identical.

 

Imagine an infinite field of conscious energy, a single conscious entity existing infinitely in all directions. Everything in existence exists within and is comprised of that entity. Then imagine that entity manifesting itself as a human form within that field of conscious energy.

 

That is Krishna and His swamsa expansions. They are all the same all pervading entity who has manifested in human form.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavat pranam

 

Shivaji you used the quote:

 

 

Gold alone is present before its manufacture into gold products, the gold alone remains after the products' destruction, and the gold alone is the essential reality while it is being utilized under various designations. Similarly, I alone exist before the creation of this universe, after its destruction and during its maintenance.

 

That which did not exist in the past and will not exist in the future also has no existence of its own for the period of its duration, but is only a superficial designation. In My opinion, whatever is created and revealed by something else is ultimately only that other thing.

 

Although thus not existing in reality, this manifestation of transformations created from the mode of passion appears real because the self-manifested, self-luminous Absolute Truth exhibits Himself in the form of the material variety of the senses, the sense objects, the mind and the elements of physical nature.

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

 

 

 

to support your conclusion that the material world is God. However "I alone exist" can be easily misconstrued to mean that jiva is also God as the advaitins do. So why do you apply this to material world alone and not to jivas. The other quote you gave in the other thread gives the full picture:

Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.28.6-7

 

The Supersoul alone is the ultimate controller and creator of this world, and thus He alone is also the created. Similarly, the Soul of all existence Himself both maintains and is maintained, withdraws and is withdrawn. No other entity can be properly ascertained as separate from Him, the Supreme Soul, who nonetheless is distinct from everything and everyone else. The appearance of the threefold material nature, which is perceived within Him, has no actual basis. Rather, you should understand that this material nature, composed of the three modes, is simply the product of His illusory potency.

 

 

 

The correct meaning of "I alone exist" is given by Srila Prabhupada in Teachings of Lord Chaitanya:

 

Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu (sometimes called Krsna Caitanya) is the embodiment of all of these; He is God, guru, devotee and the expansion of God. As His associate, Nityananda, He is the first manifestation of energy; as Advaita, He is an incarnation; as Gadadhara, He is the internal potency; and as Srivasa, He is the marginal living entity. Thus Krsna should not be thought of as being alone but should be considered as eternally existing with all His manifestations, as described by Ramanujacarya. In visistadvaita philosophy, God's energies, expansions and incarnations are considered to be oneness in diversity. In other words, God is not separate from all these; everything together is God.

 

 

 

However, as Srila Prabhupada says in Ishopanishad:

 

In the Vishnu Purana His potencies are compared to the heat and light that emanate from a fire. Although situated in one place, a fire can dis-tribute its light and heat for some distance; similarly, the Absolute Personality of Godhead, although fixed in His transcendental abode, can diffuse His different energies everywhere.

...

Thus the different energies of the Lord are present everywhere. Although the Lord and His energies are nondifferent, one should not mistake these energies for the Supreme Truth. Nor should one wrongly consider that the Supreme Lord is distributed everywhere impersonally or that He loses His personal existence. Men are accustomed to reach conclusions according to their capacity for understanding, but the Supreme Lord is not subject to our limited capacity for understanding. It is for this reason that the Upanishads warn us that no one can approach the Lord by his own limited potency.

 

 

 

If as you say the material world is God, then it will mean that creation is a transformation of Krishna i.e. brahman-parinama-vada. This is refuted by Srila Vyasadeva in Vedanta-Sutra saying that creation is shakti-parinama-vada (Shankaracharya who saught to establish brahman-parinama-vada went to the extreme of saying that Vyasadeva was mistaken) and in Jaiva-Dharma Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur also brings this out very clearly that both material and spiritual creation has acintya-bheda-abheda relation with God. He also says that even Lord Krishna and Lord Chaitanya have acintya-bheda-abheda relation.

 

Those who only worship Sri Gaura during their period of sädhana, only serve Sri Gaura when they achieve perfection, while those who only serve Sri Krsna during their period of sädhana serve Sri Krsna on achieving perfection. However, those who worship the forms of both Sri Krsna and Sri Gaura during their period of sadhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Sri Gaura and Sri Krsna is a very confidential secret.