Souls are Born

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

While reading Jaiva-dharma, I discovered what Eternity is, and where the Soul came from. One of the places is called Jiva-sakti, where all souls are born.

 

This is what I realized-

There is NO time in the Spiritual World. Anything born in the Spiritual World is Eternal. In this Material World anything that is born and must die.

 

In the Spiritual World, The Souls are 'born into Eternity.?

I know the question always arises but when did this take place?

 

Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita As It Is 2.12

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings;

nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

 

Krishna says we are all Eternal individuals, in the previous verse Material Forms are condemned, by Krishna. I find it amazing how Krishna is still a cowherd boy, and at the same Time with His different expansions takes care of all the essentials. [how cool is that?].

 

Jaiva-dharma it says the Jivas are produced in 3 different places, by Balarama, Sankarshana, etc, some serve Vishnu in Vaithuntaloka, and some Krishna. Jivas are not produced in the Brahmajyoti, they are put there by Maha-Vishnu. [kind of like a 2nd chance, take the red pill or yellow pill]. So many Jiva serving. Its like a regular family get together in Goloka! I want to go back!

 

 

 

[theist]

 

In the Spiritual World, The Souls are 'born into Eternity.?

I know the question always arises but when did this take place?

 

 

You said you realized there is NO time in the spiritual world. But then you ask when. When is a reference that we only understand in terms of time.

 

In the quote you gave from Bhagavad gita Krsna says all have always been. When implies a time when things were different. What was there before when? So there never was a when, as we know when.

 

[sumedh]

Dear pankaja dasa prabhu

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

 

Jaiva-dharma it says the Jivas are produced in 3 different places, by Balarama, Sankarshana, etc, some serve Vishnu in Vaithuntaloka, and some Krishna. Jivas are not produced in the Brahmajyoti, they are put there by Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

 

Actually the conditioned jivas are produced from Brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of Lord Mahavishnu.

From Srila Prabhupada's purport to Sri Ishopanishad Mantra Sixteen

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord—which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-shakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls—is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramatma and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists. One who knows this engages himself at once in the devotional service of the Lord.

 

 

 

Purport to mantra seventeen

 

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.

 

 

 

From Brahma-Samhita purport 5.10

 

The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu, are manifest as the individual souls (jivas). This will be elaborated in the sequel.

 

 

 

From Brahma-Samhita purport 5.16

 

The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord.

 

 

 

The conclusion is that when Maha-vishnu glances at the material energy then the innumerable conditioned jivas enter the material world from His effulgence (or brahmajyoti/brahman); the jivas are atomic particles of His brahmajyoti.

 

hope this explains this.

[Guest guest]

Very good Sumedh now we can stop thinking we are great personalities that fell or descended from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha or Goloka) to this material world. Although this can happen it is very rare.

 

Accept your baddha jiva status and work towards becoming a resident of that transcendental soil.

[sumedh]

 

Although this can happen it is very rare.

 

 

 

Actually it is impossible that any of the sadhana-siddha or nitya-siddha pure devotees become subject to mahamaya. We come from tatastha region and not Goloka.

[Guest guest]

You mention that souls are born and eternal at the same time, How can sould be born if they are eternal?

-Hari.

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur answers this question as follows in Jaiva-Dharma Chapter 15 (jiva-tattva):

 

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

 

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in

the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you,

you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-näma as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor.

The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable

to attain Him. I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

 

 

 

The example provided (elsewhere in a thread by vijay prabhu) is that of sun and sunlight, with the particles of sunlight likened to jivas and Krishna & His svamsa expansions likened to sun and its surface. If we imagine the sun to be eternal, then the jivas are also eternal but still are born from the sun. In other words since in the Eternal Time everything is eternally accomplished the souls are born means the brahmajyoti of Mahavishnu is the source of conditioned souls and not created at some point of time (because the question "at some point of time" only arises in the material realm where time is forked into three, as theist prabhu has answered before).

[krsna]

Such an in depth answer to a controversial question.

 

And the answer is chant Harinam and the Name will reveal the spiritual world (Time & Space) in due course.

[theist]

 

Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

 

 

And herein is the answer. But of course we who are still under the dominion of material time will not just accept it and live straightway in that reality. Instead will will try to pull that understand back with us into this "fallen" state. Surely an impossiblity. The form that may take however to our benefit may be to raise further questions that can help propel us back towards that realm.

 

I have one. "Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present." So that would seem to include events that transpire after the sadhana bhakta has become perfect in his Krsna consciousness and is fixed in his eternal service to Krsna. Any service he performs from then on *was* and is and *forever will be* in the spiritual world.

 

So the question is, At that point and from that perspective, how can it be said that there ever was a fall?

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna

please accept my dandavat pranam

 

 

I have one. "Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present." So that would seem to include events that transpire after the sadhana bhakta has become perfect in his Krsna consciousness and is fixed in his eternal service to Krsna. Any service he performs from then on *was* and is and *forever will be* in the spiritual world.

 

 

 

In fact if we say that souls have "fallen" from the spiritual realm then it will imply that they are eternally fallen! The event of bondage of soul cannot take place in the realm of eternal Time else it will be an eternally accomplished Truth. So Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that the bondage of the soul in material realm is not in material time, nor in the spiritual realm but in the tatastha region where the soul simultaneously sees both the realms. One cannot even imagine the nature of eternal Time, what then to speak of the tatastha region; so Srila Bhaktivinode tells us to realize these truths and the scriptures can only give an indication in such matters.

 

 

So the question is, At that point and from that perspective, how can it be said that there ever was a fall?

 

 

 

The fall can be said with respect to the soul's pure nature. To take a crude example: suppose a person born in very cultured family comes under the influence of bad habits since a small kid ever since he came to the platform of being able to understand good/bad, then we would say that he has fallen but that does not mean that he was (necessarily) cultured before having fallen because there is no "before" at all. Thus we can say that the soul has fallen to this material world from the tatastha region instead of going to its proper position in the spiritual world.

[theist]

Karandhara: “Aïjasä—completely. Translation: Çré Çukadeva Gosvämé said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”[snip]...

 

 

...[/snip]

Prabhupäda: Parasyänubhavätmanaù. Na ghaöeta artha-sambandha. There cannot be any relation at all. Na ghaöeta. Cannot be. Artha sambandhaù. Svapna-drañöur iväïjasä. The very exact example is given, svapna-drañöuù. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghaöetärtha-sambandhaù. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation. Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by dream. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly we have created this material world and activity. People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna-drañöur iväïjasä, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

So the answer is, when somebody asks you that “When one has become in contact with this material nature?” He has not become in contact. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy. Just like the same example: A man is dreaming; there is no contact with tiger. Actually he has no contact with that. Similarly, actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Kåñëa has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Kåñëa, so Kåñëa has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’ ” That is the... So everyone in this material world, they are playing some part. They wanted, “I want to be prime minister.” “All right.” “I want to become very big business magnate.” “I want to be leader.” “I want to be a philosopher.” “I want to be a scientist.” So all this nonsense, they are trying to play—Kåñëa is giving him the opportunity: “All right.” But it is a nonsense, all nonsense. Simple dreaming. Just like you are dreaming. Next moment when the dream is gone, everything is finished. No more tiger, no more jungle, no more... Everything is finished. Similarly, so long this body is continuing, I am thinking, “I am a responsible leader, I am this, I am that.” But as soon as this body is finished, oh, these are (indistinct) gone.

Sarva-haraç cäham. The death means... Kåñëa says, “I am death. I take it away, all, everything. Gone.” Now just think of our past life. Suppose I was a king or something like that. From Bhågu-saàhitä it was ascertained. They said—I do not know—that I was a big physician in my last life, very spotless character, no sins, like that. He explained me. So it may be. But actually I have no remembrance that I was a physician. So what do we know? I might have been a very big physician, influential physician, having a good practice, but where is all...? All gone. So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Kåñëa consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Kåñëa’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Kåñëa conscious. “Oh, Kåñëa is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. So if you study all these verses very nicely, you get all this knowledge quickly. Now what is the purport? Come on.[snip]...

 

...[/snip]

 

Karandhara: “The spirit soul is distinct from the material conception of his life.”

 

Prabhupäda: Yes. Distinct. Always distinct. Next?

[snip]...

 

...[/snip] Yogis, they are also trying to become one. So many endeavors are going on. But the simple process is, as soon as you surrender, that you are not fallen, “It was illusion. I was dreaming. I am Kåñëa’s,” finished. All gone. “I am Kåñëa’s. I am Kåñëa’s eternal servant. These are all nonsense”—he immediately becomes liberated. Just try to understand. Immediately, within a second. Liberation can be attained within a second, provided we abide by the order of Kåñëa. Sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja [bg. 18.66]. This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated. [snip]...

 

 

...[/snip]Therefore Bhaktivinoda Öhäkura said, keno mäyär boçe jäccho bhese’: “Why you are being washed away by the waves of mäyä? Just fix up. Stand up.” Jév kåñëa-däs ei viçwäs korle to är duùkho näi. You simply remain fixed up on this standpoint, that, “I am eternal servant of Kåñëa.” Then there is no more dream. And if you allow yourself to be washed away, Kåñëa gives you facility, “All right, come on. Be washed away.” Then?

 

Karandhara: “The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him.”

 

Prabhupäda: Yes.

 

Karandhara: “As a person thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualifications, similarly, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his actual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the shadow of the moon. Similarly the crying child of the Lord is given over to the shadow of the material world to lord it over as a karmé and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history when the living entity desired this, but the fact is that as soon as he desired such, he was put under the control of ätma-mäyä by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is ‘mine’ and this is ‘I.’ The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as ‘I’ or falsely thinks that he is the lord and that everything in connection with the material body is ‘mine.’ Thus in dream only the misconception of ‘I and mine’ persist life after life. This continues life after life as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord. In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream. And in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love.”

 

Prabhupäda: That’s all.

 

Devotees: All glories to you Çréla Prabhupäda. (offer obeisances)[snip]

 

 

 

[theist]

Why cannot the desire to be the enjoyer arise from within one from Vaikuntha or Goloka?

 

It is not that maya enters the land of Krsna and snatches someone away. But it may happen that the desire to be the enjoyer arises within the individual soul who is then thrown into this dream world of imaginary enjoyment.

 

But wouldn't his absence be missed?

 

Of course not because he never left. He only dreamed he was somewhere else. And when he wakes up from the material dream he finds himself still in the eternal world where there is no time so at no time was he gone. And because all activities are eternally present he finds he has always been doing acts of service to Krsna.

 

The whole idea of there having been a break in Krsna's service was just an illusion and from that eternal angle never happened in reality.

 

Just a speculation offered to see if it stands up under the devotees scrutiny.

[Guest guest]

Not that I know anything, but this is partly what my master has alluded to and partly what my intuition tells me.

 

I find the company of really dedicated devotees on this planet takes away a lot of that false desire, because the atmosphere is surcharged with service. I can't even imagine the intensity of Bhagavan seva in those dimentions.

I'd say by the time you reach that level of Visnu consciousness, keeping in mind to get there, one has to be in Nista that is constant rememberance, never a break. Then I would also hazard a guess that the inhabitants of that soil are soul-washed just as we are brain-washed on this plane, the whole environment is favourably helping us. And I have noticed that when the higher devotees have a mission they are totally obsessed with pleasing their Lord and his servitors. And there is a constant vigilance against any adversity to devotion sneaking in to their consciousness.

For just as we can know there are lower realms of hell so too they must have some idea of the horrid alternative to their perfect existence between Vaikuntha and Goloka.

 

I'd say we're programmed like Gopa Kumar if we're lucky.

And the more interest we show in that the more it becomes embedded in us, along with an ever increasing aspiration to grow, serve and love closer to Krsna and His retinue.

 

From what I understand waking to reality is somewhat like you've explained because the sheer thrill of being in such an environment is overwhelmingly wonderful in a land of eternal now, no more anxiety about the past or the future. Because birth, disease, age and death are no more part of your consciousness.

We just gotta' get there!

[sumedh]

Hare Krishna and dandavats

 

The dreaming state that Srila Prabhupada mentions is that of mistaking the body for the self and forgetting the eternal nature of the soul. As Srila BhaktiSiddhanta says, when the self is in a state comparable to that of slumber then the non-self (body,mind,intellect,ego) start working to their own whims. When the self is in the pure state then there is absolutely no possibility of dreaming. What Srila Prabhupada is saying is that the "fall" of soul does not mean any change in the nature of the soul (and so the soul has actually not fallen and is the same for its nature is eternal), only that it has been covered.

 

 

Why cannot the desire to be the enjoyer arise from within one from Vaikuntha or Goloka?

 

 

 

Because the desire to be the enjoyer arises from avidya or ignorance of one's true position. For one who is a pure devotee there is no question of not knowing; pure devotee means having attained svarupa-siddhi and the desire to be the enjoyer cannot arise in the pure state otherwise there will be no meaning to svarupa-siddhi.

 

 

Of course not because he never left. He only dreamed he was somewhere else. And when he wakes up from the material dream he finds himself still in the eternal world where there is no time so at no time was he gone.

 

 

 

As Srila Bhaktivinode says anything that happens in the Spiritual realm is eternal Truth; so whatever you call it whether a dream or any other term it will be eternally True. The eternal Time is that of eternal present not infinite past,present,future; if in the eternal present the soul dreams something then it will be eternally True not zero time. There is no possibility of any event (whether one calls it a fall or a dream) in the eternal time to be anything but of eternal nature; all this means is simply that there cannot be any illusion in the spiritual realm where there is only Truth and everything (including dreams etc) is eternally True there.

 

Most of all this concept runs contrary to all shastra; there is no mention anywhere of such an event. The pure devotees cannot become illusioned into mistaking material body for self, otherwise there will be no meaning to pure devotee. In addition such a theory will mean that all souls are actually nitya-mukta which again contradicts the scriptures.