mahak-fla controversy

[Guest guest]

Im surprised that this issue is not discussed. Maybe it is better, because there are many who want to slash right thru the heart of Amerika by the diversion of this death with dignity issue.

 

Personally, I find it quite ludicrous for both sides to make judgement on two subjects they know nothing about, Life and Death. Sadly, this issue will soon drop to the level of fighting over possession of a corpse.

 

I pray to Krsna to protect this person, to allow the self to finally transmigrate, to move on. While some have chastized me saying that removing a feeding tube is murder, I dont agree, because there is no FOOD in that tube. No chocolate, no donuts and coffee, no taste, no fulfillment of the stomace. The feeding tube is full of glucose, amino acids, nothing but chemical garbage made of pig guts. It is the same as a respirator. Feeding tubes were developed to temporarily sustain life during comas and surgery, not an indefinite life support. And I hate doctors anyway, and remember how Srila Prabhupada absolutely forbade his disciples of surrendering him to physician care under any circumstance.

 

This thing here seemed to me to be the souls hard attachment that went beyond the subtle body adherance to a corpse usually associated with ghosts. Some of the gross body was also affected by this attachment, but I firmly believe that death took place 15 years ago. The moving of biological parts is not symptomatic of life, because I remember from Biology 101 that the frog removed from the fridge moved quite well when adrenaline was added. As far as the confused masses who cry out loud go, I request that they look into the eyes of a cow, see the reaction, the actual love if you throw good vibes toward her, and then slit her throat to eat her flesh. The lady was not hooked up. My wish is that someone would chant softly to her, but the demons surrounding her would never allow such a thing.

 

Spell it out, this is the lesson here. Ive written out commands that I not even be taken to the emergency ward of the hospital I work at if I should suddenly clutch at my chest. I refuse invasion by the body snatchin doctors, get no shots, and only take drugs that I decide that I need. I only use my doctor to write notes to the pension plan that retired me on a bonafide disability.

 

I had good dogs over the years, and the best was moses. He left his body alone, he disappeared without leaving anyone to clean up the carcass. What a noble dog. Not that I minded caring for the old beasts while they died, and took them to the incinerator, but Moses is the dude I remember, and appreciate his discretionary act of dying.

 

I believe in death with dignity, and refuse to be accused of being an abortionist or a "deathocrat" by ignorant fools who will use anything to cause open warfare with all around them.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

Living and dying with dignity is an Aryan concept. Most of the world is in the grasp of non-aryan cultures, so it does not surprise me that the issue of dignity in dying is seldom discussed.

 

Here in US it is all about "rights" and "interests" - just a bunch of greedy vaishyas and ignorant sudras dictating the social norms...

[Guest guest]

I remember the great johnny depp movie, dead man, with way cool sound track by neil young.

 

The death scene, from indigenous culture of northwest tribes, was soooooooo dignified, sort of a great passing, I recommend this movie for those interested in dignified life and death. Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

This is how I want to go, to be strapped into a canoe and set to sea adrift, with best wishes from the living.

 

God I loved that movie, im gonna rent it right now. Sergio leone, the great movie maker of the classic eastwood westerns, has nothing on the casting genius of this moviemaker.

[Kulapavana]

"This is how I want to go, to be strapped into a canoe and set to sea adrift"

 

while still alive, or after you die?

 

at one time I was thinking about sailing away in a small boat when that time comes for me - in the last adventure of this life - but now I would like for the devotees to be with me when death comes - I don't quite trust myself to be Krishna conscious at the time of death...

[Guest guest]

He was at the end, there was no hope, and his guru strapped him in. Not quite there yet, but I do relate to the phrase "vegetative state". (

 

At First, I thought this referred to her being in florida=;-)

 

 

[theist]

The only dignified death is a Krsna conscious one. This case of Terry Schiavo is unique in that it very well may be an act of murder by this husband. When she was originally brought in she was ex-rayed and there were unexplained bone fractures that very well could have come from an attempted strangulation. The husband does not want her to speak nor will he allow even an autopsy on the corpse and has ordered an immediate cremation of the corpse.

 

To deny her food and water so that she will die from dehydration and starvation is beyond barbarism. As Art Bell said Saturday or Sunday night we wouldn't even do that to a dog or cat. They claim she is incapable of feeling pain yet they have her on a morphine drip to ease pain. It is very sick indeed.

 

I have not been able to draw a clear line myself between what is called "heroic care" and ordinary attempts to save life. But they are not allowed by the husband to test rather see can swallow or not. But several of her nurses have given sworn statements that they used to give her Jello when the husband wasn't around and she appreciated eating it.

 

No this is a very unique case. Very macabre. What we are witnessing would make a great script for an Alfred Hitchcock movie. I would tittle it, Murder by System.

[Airicky]

The news says that on Sunday her father and a friend visited her and they were talking about how much Terri used to love to dance. Terri smiled, attempted to raise her hands and made grunting noises.

 

The news reported last week that Terri had tears in her eyes when her mother hugged her.

 

A therapist stated that before her husband stopped all therapy Terri was on her way to talking.

 

Does this sound like a person in a vegetative state?

[theist]

Yes. Her husband won a court case and almost a million dollars earmarked for her care and therapy. Immediately after he got the money he ordered all therapy to stop.

 

This is a public marker of the arrival of a much darker period for humanity I feel. A woman is starved and denied water as we sit around waiting for her to die.

 

Her parents said the would assume all responsibilities for her. A donor has put up one million dollars to restart her therapy but the husband won't allow it. Even though he now has another woman and two kids by her. he could just walk away and let her parents care for her but he demands to

kill her.

 

God how far can we sink.

[stonehearted]

What we hear is a lot of he-says, she-says, and I don't know whom to believe. The husband could divorce her and let the parents manage her care, unless he actually believes that her desire would not be to live such a "life." Otherwise, I can't figure why he insists on making himself an object of such vilification. (But who knows what's the truth any more?) My father's second wife was in a persistent vegetative state for almost 5 1/2 years. The insurance company found a way to cut off her care after $150,000 (they were covered for a million each), and the costs of care and his lawsuit against the insurance company ate up an enormous amount of money. He had to divorce her and put her on Medi-Cal to keep from going under completely.

[Avinash]

Is there any conclusive evidence that in the past she told her husband not to keep her alive by artificial means? If no, then the ruling was definitely wrong. If yes, then is she feeling the same now? Just because in the past, she was not interested in being kept alive by artificial means, it does not mean that she is not interested in being alive even now.

 

Some people may say that she was not feeling anything and that is why her feeding tubes were removed. If she was not feeling anything, then she was not feeling pain also. If she was not feeling pain, then what good was done to her by removing her feeding tubes?

 

If she was feeling pain, then was she not put under even more pain by depriving her of food and water?

 

I just hate this ruling. Who is the judge to decide how long she should be alive and when she should die? Who has given him this authority? If we say that it is in the constituition, then who are the framers of the constituition to play the god of Death. She did not commit any crime that she is being punished.

[theist]

AFter she had been in that condition for seven years the husband took a common law wife. It was at that time that he "remembered" how when he was watching a movie with Terry she told him that she would not want to live in those conditions as someone in the movie was going through.

 

The specuations have arisen that the reason he wants her dead is because it due to an assault on her by him that she is in that condition now so he does not want her to recover and speak.

 

He claims she had a heart attck that left her in that condition but x-rays reveal some broken bones in her neck that are consistent with strangulation. Who knows? But I just heard in answer to public pressure he has finally agreed to an autopsy before he creamates her body.

 

This is such a ghastly plane to live on.

[stonehearted]

We've heard many stories from both sides about just what her condition is. It seems clear that, if there had been any indication that her condition was the result of an assault, the police would have investigated. I haven't seen anything convincing yet that these reports have any merit, but this story is not at the core of my life, either. Our interest in it is media driven, and I tend to shy away from such things. (I never saw 2001: A Space Odyssey in the '60s. I resisted going to see it because everyone was going and raving about how "far out" it was. I think the first time I saw it was on videotape in 1986 or '87, and I was sorry that I hadn't gone in '68 or '69 to see it on a big screen.) This story certainly has broader implications than the Peterson or Jackson stories, but I don't have the time, energy, or interest to immerse myself in it. So I'm probably missing many of the details that some of you mention here.

 

I have little confidence that any of us really knows what happened 15 years ago, or will ever know, or that we'll ever really know what's going on in Michael Schiavo's heart.

[theist]

I see this is a crossroads event and that our society is taking the wrong road into the future. "Quality of life" they say. It's now open season on those without the requiste quality of life.

 

Of course they have that glaring example of Stephen Hawkins to contend with but he will die in a few years and be out of the way.

 

Speaking of scifi flicks from that era did anyone see The Runner? at least I think that was the tittle. About this enclosed city state where the make a game out of euthanizing anyone past thirty which they called Renew. It was because past thirty the had a bad quality of life and used up resources etc. so at thirty they were "renewed" (killed) so they could receive a new youthful form.

 

Micheal York was the star.

 

So soon they may make it like a game. That is similar to what M. Schiavos lawyer is portraying her present state now as. Something like a deep relaztation trip at a health spa.

[Kulapavana]

SB 2.3.17: Both by rising and by setting, the sun decreases the duration of life of everyone, except one who utilizes the time by discussing topics of the all-good Personality of Godhead.

 

SB 2.3.18: Do the trees not live? Do the bellows of the blacksmith not breathe? All around us, do the beasts not eat and discharge semen?

 

 

 

when your time is up, trying to artificially cling to life is just a waste of energy. all around us, death dances tirelessly with her scythe...

 

and the "conservatives" obsession with this issue is purely political: they have no problem with tens of thousands innocent civilians killed in the name of "fighting terrorism" while they tirelessly argue to spare one life of decidedly questionable value.

 

 

[theist]

when her time is up because Krsna will just take her. I understand there comes a point when it is futile and all the extraordinary procedures become meaningless. But I hardly call feeding extraordinary or heroic. BTW I heard on the radio that the pope is going to be put on the same type of feeding tube today.

 

If you don't see the wider implications of this quality of life excuse to kill then what can I say. From killing the unborn to the aged to the retarded to those born in poor families. You become a eugenicist then like Margret Sanger and Adolf Hitler.

 

"I hear those poor Hare Krsna's are suffering by being persecuted because of their religion. What a poor quality of life that must be. We should help them out of their misery."

 

Zeig Heil baby. You think it can't happen again or here? Think again.

[Kulapavana]

"BTW I heard on the radio that the pope is going to be put on the same type of feeding tube today."

 

so in your opinion Shiavo's case is just about feeding?

 

 

LIFE IS CONSCIOUSNESS! Remember?

 

WHERE is her consciousness? WHO is animating her body? can you tell?

 

in Pope's case his consciousness is FINE, he can comunicate in both words and by writing.

 

you can forcibly animate bodies for a very, very long time - such is the advancement of modern science. where do you draw the line on life and death? If you have learned anything from the Vedas you would have known that life is consciousness.

 

and btw: your attempts to paint as nazis people who see this case differently than you are pathetic, cheap shots below the belt. I expected more from you, but I guess I was wrong.

 

[Kulapavana]

"BTW I heard on the radio that the pope is going to be put on the same type of feeding tube today."

 

so in your opinion Shiavo's case is just about feeding?

 

 

LIFE IS CONSCIOUSNESS! Remember?

 

WHERE is her consciousness? WHO is animating her body? can you tell?

 

in Pope's case his consciousness is FINE, he can comunicate in both words and by writing.

 

you can forcibly animate bodies for a very, very long time - such is the advancement of modern science. where do you draw the line on life and death? If you have learned anything from the Vedas you would have known that life is consciousness.

 

and btw: your attempts to paint as nazis people who see this case differently than you are pathetic, cheap shots below the belt. I expected more from you, but I guess I was wrong.

 

[theist]

I really am surprised anew often at the beliefs devotees are mixing with Krsna conscious social teaching. Pro-choice devotees, Nazi style Jew hating devotees and now eugenics ala Margret Sanger.

 

So let's see we already have abortion on demand but I think the next step is to have some mandatory abortions to rid the human gene pool of the pollution of handicap individuals who screw it up and also to save them from having a poor quality of life. This would save society much money that is now wasted on helping them. Also they aren't really wanted and that must make them feel bad so it really is the only compassionate thing to do.

 

Are any Krsna conscious leaders and preachers tackling these issues head on or do we just repeat old vedic stories to a modern world?

[Kulapavana]

yes, indeed a lot of confusion out there... add to this list the pro-war "me so scared of terrorists" types /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

but you have ignored the main points I was making:

 

1. life is consciousness

 

2. where do you draw a line between artificial life support and death

 

[theist]

>>>1. life is consciousness<<<

 

Duh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

So? That isn't a license to willfully kill the bodies of anyone deemed inconvienient. "Oh it doesn't matter cuz no one really dies.

 

And just because someone's consciousness isn't visible to you doesn't mean it is not present. The abortionist use the same arguments as you are here for killing the unborn. "Well, we don't detect sentience or individual consciousness so there is no one there. Animal slaughters also use the same arguments.

 

I heard a women call in to a radio talk show the other night and she told of how she wqs locked in a comatose body for four years. And while she couldn't move her body she was fully aware of everything that was said in the room around her, she just couldn,t answer back. Then she came out of it. You would have euthanized her.

 

>>>2. where do you draw a line between artificial life support and death<<<

 

I brought this question up here a few weeks ago. I can't see the line clearly. There are too many things here beyond my understanding. I need to hear a Krsna conscious person who also knows the intricacies of these issues speak out and to guide me before I can find that line.

 

I don't know of such a person. Do you? Does anyone?

[theist]

In the Netherlands they are debating a proposed law that would give doctors the decision making power of when to euthanize someone EVEN ABOVE PARENTAL OBJECTIONS.

 

This __it is coming down faster then I can duck. I want out!!!

[Kulapavana]

>>>2. where do you draw a line between artificial life support and death<<<

 

I brought this question up here a few weeks ago. I can't see the line clearly. There are too many things here beyond my understanding. I need to hear a Krsna conscious person who also knows the intricacies of these issues speak out and to guide me before I can find that line.

 

I don't know of such a person. Do you? Does anyone?"

 

if you dont know where that line is, maybe you should have more respect for people who take a stand on this issue that differs with yours. to me, Shiavo's case is about drawing such a line by each one of us. I admire your respect for life (at least in this case) but strongly disagree with your demonizing of people who see things differently when it comes to such issues.

[stonehearted]

theist:

In the Netherlands they are debating a proposed law that would give doctors the decision making power of when to euthanize someone EVEN ABOVE PARENTAL OBJECTIONS.

 

 

Texas already has such a law, passed int he late '90s and signed by then-Governor George W. Bush.

[theist]

Just because I can't see a particular line, the same one you can't describe BTW doesn't mean I can't see anything. If you can't handle the reference then I suggest you familarize youself with Sanger and Hitler and their views on Euthanasia. The parrell I pointed it was not a statement for emotive value.

 

Babhru, that would suprise me. Do you have some specific reference?

[Kulapavana]

"Just because I can't see a particular line, the same one you can't describe BTW doesn't mean I can't see anything"

 

in other words:

 

"I dont know where the line is, but you certainly stand on the wrong side of it"

 

the logic here is profound, and probably comes from the same place Bush gets his...

 

as to my definition of this line between life and death: dude, you never asked earlier...

 

so here it is:

 

when the body can't be maintained by it's owner neither now, nor in a forseeable future, it should be allowed to die naturally.

 

(and if that is euthanasia to you, I suggest you get familiar with the definition of that term)