Will a new Pope lead the faithful closer to accepting Krsna Consciousness ???

[theist]

He was a staunch defender of John Pauls conservative stance in regards to abortion and homosex marriage etc. I would be happy if he just held the line.

 

From what little I have heard he seems a humble man.

 

May the Lord bless Catholics (as well as us)with ever-expanding

Krishna consciousness.

[stonehearted]

Benedict XVI.

 

I don't see any evidence that he would have any regard for Krishna consciousness. One thing notable about him is that he believes that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church, and that even other Christian churches are bogus. Don't even mention non-Christian religions! Some years ago John Pail II had a prayer meeting with representatives of different world religions, and Cardinal Ratzinger publicly criticized his Pope's decision to do so. This fellow is not likely to bring a few cardinals to a Sunday feast program, folks.

[theist]

I wasn't thinking of Krsna consciousness as a religion. I meant may the Lord increase their awareness of Him.

[stonehearted]

I appreciated your remarks. My remarks there were really a response to the subject line of Krishna das's earlier post. I didn't mean to put you on the spot; I think I clicked Reply on your post to correct the name. I think Benedict's adherence to traditional teachings and practice will serve the Church well for the most part. However, I think he would do well to keep discussion of some of the contentious issues going without too-harshly sanctioning those who raise tough questions. (I would exclude abortion from that list, even for discussion. Contraception, though, is at least worth taling about.) I hope he follows John Paul II's lead in reaching out and opening up to other faith communities, but that has not been his history.

 

These are all the remarks of someone clearly outside this community, as I have never been a Roman Catholic.

[theist]

I just wanted to clarify. I know they will remain sectarian in their outlook towards others even if they do reach out. And the same for those others with Krishna consciousness being the exception.

 

We can reject them all and accept them all at the same time.

 

Say when are you going to buy my flat?

[krsna]

A Pope with uncompromising views

 

By Peter Gould

BBC correspondent in Vatican City

 

 

Around the world, a billion Catholics are now wondering where their new Pope will take them.

 

 

As a young priest Pope Benedict was regarded as progressive

 

For those who believe in the traditional values of the Church, the election of Joseph Ratzinger is a blessing.

 

They know they can rely on him to hold the line against those with an agenda for change.

 

But those who want to reform the Church may be less happy, as they see him as a man in the mould of John Paul II.

 

Pope Benedict is firmly opposed to birth control, supports the celibacy of the priesthood, and is against the ordination of women.

 

He has said that anyone who supports the "grave sins" of abortion and euthanasia should be denied Communion.

 

Road from radicalism

 

He has also spoken out against homosexuality, and once denounced rock music as "the vehicle of anti-religion".

 

 

 

Ratzinger's ascent through the Catholic Church began in Germany

 

In fact there are few Catholic controversies of recent years on which Cardinal Ratzinger did not express his views forcibly.

 

It may seem hard to believe now, but as a young priest he was regarded as a progressive.

 

Then as a university professor during the student unrest of the 1960s, he became increasingly conservative.

 

It was the late Pope who brought the Bavarian to Rome in 1981, and they became close friends.

 

Cardinal Ratzinger ran the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

 

'God's Rottweiler'

 

This Vatican department, a descendant of the Holy Inquisition, protects Church orthodoxy.

 

The job earned him unflattering nicknames such as "The Pope's Enforcer" and "God's Rottweiler".

 

He has a reputation for stifling dissent, and one of his early campaigns was against "liberation theology" in Latin America.

 

Some priests became involved in fighting poverty through social action, but to Cardinal Ratzinger it smacked of Marxism.

 

As a key aide to John Paul II he had a fearsome reputation, but those who know him say he is gentle and somewhat shy.

 

North and south

 

The first clue about any pope's intentions is his choice of name.

 

Cardinal Ratzinger could have called himself John Paul III. It would have been seen as a statement that he intended to continue the work of his mentor.

 

 

Instead, he opted for Benedict, which comes from the Latin for "blessing".

 

 

 

The last Pope Benedict reigned during the First World War. He is credited with settling animosity between traditionalists and modernists, and wanted to bring about a reunion with Orthodox Christians.

 

The new Pope Benedict faces a variety of challenges, not least declining Church attendance and a chronic shortage of priests in many parts of Europe.

 

Another task is to continue the drive towards better relations with Islam, as the two religions compete for converts in parts of the developing world.

 

When John Paul II was elected, the focus was on East-West relations, and the Polish Pope was credited with helping to bring down communism.

 

As the new papacy begins, it is the tension between North and South that is most pressing. Globalisation and debt relief are issues Pope Benedict will be expected to face.

 

There is some surprise that a key member of the Vatican bureaucracy has been elected pope.

 

Many cardinals would like to see a less centralised Church, and a less powerful pope who guides rather than governs.

 

They may have to wait a little longer. Pope Benedict XVI looks like a man who will not be afraid to exercise his powers.

 

 

[theist]

Soft as a rose and hard as a Rottweiler. That is just what is needed now in the Catholic church (and Iskcon) to hold to fort against those that would subvert those institutions with the ever changing (and descending) world "values" in the name of staying relevant.

 

I didn't know anything about the man until the last day or so and Babhru's statements on his closed views towards other religions is disturbing in one sense. Pope John 2 made friends among religious leaders and generated goodwill that crossed sectarian borders. That is always of high value.

 

But perhaps the danger lies with the laities embrace of a similar spirit. The tendency would be to become hodge podge with the mixing of polytheism and Buddhism etc. The Buddhism and impersonal yoga influence we already see.

 

It would be better to either open to Indian sourced Vaisnava understandings or leave it alone and remain sectarian huddled around Lord Christ. If they become solid disciples of Lord Jesus then they will go to Him and He will train them further about the Personality of Godhead. I can almost see them all now reading Deepak Chopra for "advanced studies". Makes me shudder.

[krsna]

Hindu Organization Reacts to New Pope

http://www.shastras.org/PressRelease11.html

 

TROY MICHIGAN, April 19, 2005: Navya Shastra, a global Hindu

organization of scholars, practitioners and priests with members in

over ten countries, has congratulated the Catholic Church for selecting

Joseph Ratzinger--now Benedict XVI--as its new Pope. However, the

organization expressed concern over Ratzinger's stance towards

Hinduism. "Ratzinger has described Hindu meditative practices as

'auto-erotic' and has stated that the Hindu doctrine of karma is

"morally cruel," said Vikram Masson, Navya Shastra Co-Chairman,

"clearly he is misinformed about the central practices and tenets which

bind the world's 800 million Hindus," he added. At a time when

religions must work together to spiritually regenerate an increasingly

secular planet, such doctrinal narrowness and lack of understanding of

other traditions will only serve a divisive function. "What is needed

now is ecumenism and mutual trust," said Dr. Jaishree Gopal, Navya

Shastra Co-Chairman, "we hope that the new Pope comes to understand

this because religious difference and competition is causing mounting

global conflict," she added.

 

________

 

 

N. S. Rajaram On the New Pope

http://www.organiser.org/01oct2000/agenda.html

 

BANGALORE, INDIA, October 1, 2000: Navaratna S. Rajaram wrote this

essay five years ago dealing in large part with the work of Cardinal

Ratzinger, the newly elected Pope:

 

The Pope and the Vatican have shown their true face. In a just released

document titled "Declaration of Lord Jesus" (written by Ratzinger) the

Vatican proclaims non-Christians to be in a "gravely deficient

situation" and even non-Catholic churches have "defects" because they

do not acknowledge the primacy of the Pope. This of course means the

Vatican refuses to acknowledge the spiritual right of the Hindus to

their beliefs and practices and asserts also the right of its agents in

India and other countries to engage in conversion. During his visit to

India Pope John-Paul II went further: he demanded conversion as a

"fundamental right" though the Vatican does not recognize any right

beyond the Pope's authority.

 

All this claim is based not only on the doctrinal authority supposedly

deriving from the word of Christ, but also the supreme authority of the

Pope as the spiritual head of the world to which followers of all other

"gravely deficient" religions--like Hinduism--must submit. Without this

there is no salvation. Who issued this statement proclaiming the

supremacy of the Catholic religion and the supreme spiritual authority

of the Pope? It was one Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, head of a Vatican

office known as the congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. This is

probably the most powerful and influential office in the Vatican. And

of all the Cardinals, Ratzinger is closest to Pope John Paul II. The

public knows very little about this shadowy office, known since 1965 as

the congregation for the Docrtine of the Faith. Prior to that date it

was known as the Holy Office. And until 1542 it was known as the Holy

Inquisition--a name synonymous with terror and torture in the name of

God and Christ. Cardinal Ratzinger is called its secretary; in the old

days he would be known as the Grand Inquisitor. It was this office that

persecuted Galileo and burnt scientist Giordano Bruno at the stake. It

was this office again that sanctioned the Goa Inquisition as demanded

by "Saint" Francis Xavier, at which were thousands of innocent Indians

perished. It is the same office now that is denouncing Hindus as

"gravely deficient" who need to be converted to save them.

 

For the rest of the article, click "source" above.

[theist]

Benedict XV1 gave a speech yesterday and said something about the need to continue with John Paul's spirit of developing harmonious relations with other religions.

 

I haven't read it but it sounds hopeful.

[stonehearted]

I think he mentioned other Christian denominations. A coalition has developed, especially in the US, among conservative Catholics and conservative evangelicals, atleast with regard to social issues such as abortion and sexual identity. I don't doubt that Benedect XVI will work hard to strengthen those ties. Otherwise, his rhetoric regarding the legitimacy of even other Christian denominations makes me wonder. However, it may be that the responsibilities of office can change the way the pope thinks.

[theist]

Any coalition would start there. I don't expect Christians as a large body to suddenly open up to Hare Krsna's. But the Catholics seem a little closer in their sadhana to the sadhana taught by Srila Prabhupada.

 

They have their communion which they consider to be taking in the essence of Jesus Christ personally in the form of wafers and wine or juice. They have icons. It doesn't seem unreasonable that they could move towards offering simple things like juice, fruit, flowers, inscense and wafers at home to Christ and perhaps Mata Mary.

 

They do bead chanting already. I think their emphasis is on penance rather than spiriual transformation though. That could change like the Eastern Orthodox who chant the Jesus prayer will to goal of love for God.

[Gauracandra]

Theist,

 

I've found this to be quite true. I've had a theory that I can't prove (as most theories are). However, I've noticed there are a lot of devotees of either Jewish background or Catholic background. I tend to think its greater than the population at large. Part of me thinks its because the movement started strongly in New York and Boston and so naturally had more Jewish and Catholic presence.

 

However, I do think there is a cultural similarity between Catholicism and Vaisnavism. I'll list some (a number you've mentioned):

1) The Rosary - Catholics pray on rosary beads (with 54 beads if I'm not mistaken) with a crucifix at the end. Vaisnavas pray on japa beads with 108 beads, and a Krishna bead at the end.

2) Catholics have deity worship. Many Catholics have small altars at home with pictures of various saints. Same with Vaisnavas. Many devotees have personal altars at home.

3) Catholics have an ideal that is similar to Varnashram. It doesn't quite have a name, though many Catholics have tried to build a philosophy called Distributism (Catholic economic justice). They harken back to the middle ages when there were guilds and apprenticeships. There was a division of labor according to various skills and the church at the center of the community to spiritualize the community. Each guild had a patron saint (the patron saint of carpentry, the patron saint of blacksmithing) as a way of spiritualizing that occupation.

4)Catholics have certainly a "brahminical" set up. They have priests and nuns who teach at Catholic schools. Thus the priestly duties are tied to education of society.

5) Catholics have a feminine divinity (which I think balances them as against most Protestants who pretty much reject Mary).

6) Catholics have a monastic goal. While Vaisnavas have the transition to various stages, ultimately to sannyas, Catholics have many monasteries where people spend their lives in various levels of asceticism.

7) Catholic worship services include incense, in the old days Latin (comparable to Sanskrit for Vaisnavas) etc...

8) Catholicism tends to be more mystical than the Protestant faiths (belief in possession, stigmata, visions, saints etc...).

 

I do think there are a lot of similarities. My theory of why so many Catholics became devotees is because they inherently felt those similarities. However, the mood was different. In church they'd see a tortured Christ. At the temple they'd see the beautiful smiling faces of Radha-Govinda. I think many found a comfort with a religion which while it was different was also similar in many respects, and yet it wasn't torturous. It wasn't blood, and pain, and suffering. It was flowers, and singing, and dancing.

[theist]

just a little tweaking and of course ceasing the animal slaughter is all that is need. But that's just from my external position of having never been a Catholic. They just have to get Lord Christ off that cross.

 

Have you ever read that little book The Way of the Pilgrim? The Eastern Orthodox church seems rather interesting to me although I know little about them. They chant the Jesus prayer on rope beads. Something like Lord Jesus have mercy on me. Their goal is to chant it continuously and until the chanting is spontaneous from the spirital plane.

[stonehearted]

Francis was way too cool to even want to be Pope.

 

If someone wants Benedict to really bless the world, they need to touch his heart and show him the connection between animal slaughter and war. In that mood, here's "Song of Peace," widely attributed to George Bernard Shaw:

 

Song of Peace

We are the living graves of murdered beasts,

Slaughtered to satisfy our appetites.

We never pause to wonder at our feasts,

If animals, like men, can possibly have rights.

We pray on Sundays that we may have light,

To guide our footsteps on the path we tread.

We�re sick of war,we do not want to fight-

The thought of it now fills our hearts with dread,

And yet--we gorge ourselves upon the dead.

 

Like carrion crows, we live and feed on meat,

Regardless of the suffering and pain

We cause by doing so, if thus we treat

Defenceless animals for sport or gain,

How can we hope in this world to attain

The PEACE we say we are so anxious for.

We pray for it, o’er hecatombs of slain,

To God, while outraging the moral law;

Thus cruelty begets its offspring--WAR

 

--George Bernard Shaw

 

[Guest guest]

for they shall sing and dance for the Lord.

That poem would make a cool song prabhu, someone should record it.

I agree St Francis is the role model for their line, even Prabhupad admired his vision.

I just get the immpression they are too locked into their pretty robes, rituals, property and fixed conceptions.

It would have been far better to choose someone with a connection to the battlers, the poor and oppressed.

They may live with some degree of austerity but I feel they've lost the hunger you need to be progressive.

When everything is layed on for you, the real spirit of sanyas is lost, preaching can just dissolve into a mechanical formula instead of a living dynamic. It gets too cushy to get down and connect with the sufferers.

Not many of these Popes words are memorable either, I'd like to see some personal God realization, that truly illuminates what Jesus has already given, and even enhances their scriptures a little for the times.

I would say they are mostly concerned about the decline in their numbers to other faiths and the rise of Islam and eastern practices.

The Catholic church has always had a sectarian air about it, which Srila Bhaktivinode called 'party spirit' and stressed was the greatest enemy to real spiritual life, of course there is no shortage of it in other faiths, but Mahaprabhus accomodating attitude was one thing that initially attracted me personally.

My parents were Catholic in name but that's where it ends , I don't think many of the devotees saw common threads with vaisnavism there was just no taste in those big ole empty musty churches. It was all a yawn, we were looking for the dance and celebration of life, and the little man in the safron robes came along to show us how to find it and rejoice.

They all claim one father or God but do they see every soul as part and parcel of Him, all one family? I think not.

What is surprizing is how long they have kept their line going in whatever form it's taken. It's definately not a siksa line.

[AncientMariner]

I was listening to the Laura Ingraham show and she was going on and on about how great a Pope John Paul was and how he took such a great stand against the moral relativism that most political and spiritual leaders of today espouse. She seemed to think that this new pope is going to continue to carry out that last pope's mission and will continue to try and protect the Church from the moral relativists. Made me get a newfound respect for the departed Pope. I have always viewed catholicism as a highly ritualistic nonesensical religion but maybe there is some hope for it with good leadership, who knows.

 

 

"I got my mind right boss"

[jagatpurush]

Re: Cardinal Ratzinger's view on Hinduism and Reincarnation

 

achintya@, Aravind Mohanram <psuaravind>

wrote:

 

>And Hinduism, he said, offers `false hope'; it guarantees `purification' based on a `morally cruel' concept of reincarnation resembling `a continuous circle of hell'."

>

 

I am curious to know what he thinks of the Christian worldview in which a man is born into this world, naturally takes on the beliefs of whoever raises him, and after death suffers eternally if he was not raised or converted to Christianity.

 

By this logic, everyone born into this world before Christ

automatically goes to hell eternally. And those who are born after Christ, but are geographically isolated from Christians, also go to Hell despite whatever virtues they may possess.

 

With its "one-lifetime,Jesus only," and "eternal Hell" beliefs, Christianity strikes me as a very cruel and illogical religion. Consequently, the only criticisms they can make of other religions are also confused and mixed up. This remains the case even when "highly respected" theologians (who are still highly respected even though they eat beef) make these statements.

[theist]

 

And Hinduism, he said, offers `false hope'; it guarantees `purification' based on a `morally cruel' concept of reincarnation resembling `a continuous circle of hell'."

 

 

This is true of many teachings. Many teach that one should become more and more pious and that eventually when purified by that process of development one will be liberated.

 

But all one gets by this process is repeated birth and death. It is a continuous cycle of hell. one that is only broken by the Lord's grace. Even the mayavadi to be successful needs Krsna's grace. It is not that one can just barge into the brahmajyoti without Krsna's permission.

 

But where Christians miss it is in not agreeing with them but then explaining that it's the Lord's grace that ends this cycle.

 

They have this statement they always quote against reincarnation.

 

It is appointed for man but once to die then the judgment. Hebrews 9.27

 

Bhaktas say the same thing. One can attain God consciousness in one lifetime and end the cycle. Failing that one's life is judged and upon that judgment attains his next assigned birth in the material world.

 

They don't understanfd this is a continual process and we all have been judged many many times before.

 

Now this process is eternal for those not God conscious. but it ends when we become God conscious. They don't allow for the ultimate release of the conditioned soul just endless suffering. Very morbid conclusion.

[jagatpurush]

 

It is appointed for man but once to die then the judgment. Hebrews 9.27

 

how to know that they have not translated it to their own convenience? does it literally say 'but once' in the original language? if not, then what is the value of this statement?

[theist]

But it is acceptable as is and in accord with Srimad Bhagavatam. After death it talks about the sinful being taken to the court of Yamaraja for judgment.

 

There also is no hard and fast rule that you must face more than one death. If we become God conscious in this birth then it is our last birth and death. No more appointments to take birth.

 

Their own argument against reincarnation actually is no argument at all. Anyway there is little use debating the point with them as they won't accept or even hear what you say.

 

I think the most we can do is plant some seeds.

[krsna]

 

submitted by Amala Gaura das

 

Posted May 18, 2005

 

Just hours after Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was named Pope Benedict XVI, PETA offered congratulations and urged His Holiness to include animals in the Catholic Church's areas of concern.

 

The new Pope has spoken movingly about the exploitation of all beings, particularly of farmed animals. When he was asked about the rights of animals in a 2002 interview, he said, "That is a very serious question. At any rate, we can see that they are given into our care, that we cannot just do whatever we want with them. Animals, too, are God's creatures....Certainly, a sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible."

 

Cardinal Ratzinger was echoing official church teachings, as laid out in the Catholic Catechism, which states clearly that "Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals...It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly."

 

In our letter, we asked His Holiness to bring his own compassionate vision to the public: "We hope that you will continue to speak out for these exploited beings. In recent years, our membership has swelled with [Catholics] who believe that animals, like people, have a sacred right to life and need to be protected from violence. . . . We turn to you now, as you take on your momentous duties, and humbly ask that you lead the way into a new era of compassion and respect for all beings, regardless of species." Read PETA's letter to Pope Benedict XVI.

 

Pope John Paul proclaimed that "the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren."

 

Compassion for animals was also a prominent theme in John Paul II's papacy. Pope John Paul proclaimed that "the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren." He went on to say that all animals are "fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect" and that they are "as near to God as men are." Animal lovers everywhere were overjoyed! He reminded people that all living beings, including animals, came into being because of the "breath" of God. Animals possess the divine spark of lifeÑthe living quality that is the soulÑand they are not inferior beings, as factory farmers, fur farmers, and others who exploit animals for profit would have us believe. After he became Pope John Paul II, His Holiness went to Assisi, the birthplace of St. Francis, and spoke of the saint's love for animals. He declared, "We, too, are called to a similar attitude."

 

PETA is hopeful that Pope Benedict XVI will continue to speak out for animals in his papacy as he did as a cardinal and that he will take a stand against the hideous treatment endured by God's creatures. Catholics can honor the teachings of Pope John Paul II and the sentiments of Pope Benedict XVI by incorporating compassion for animals more fully into their own lives.

 

http://www.goveg.com/feat/PopeBenedictXVI/

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

"If You Love God...Why Disobey"

Hyderabad, April 22, 1974

 

 

Prabhupada: Then how he can be pope?

 

Pancadravida: "But how you can say he is not the best Christian? He is the head of all the Christians."

 

Prabhupada: But that means you are foolish and pope is also foolish. If he does not follow the orders of Jesus Christ, then how he becomes a pope? Therefore you are foolish. You have elected some foolish, another foolish man as your pope. That should be the right answer, that "If he does not follow Christ, how he becomes pope?"

 

[Guest guest]

Jaya Srila Prabhupada!!!!!!!!

 

THOU SHALL NOT KILL!!!!!!!

 

jesus did not say thou shall not murder he said thou shall not kill, do you think jesus christ is stupid and doesn't know the difference between the word murder and kill, murder applies to humans only and kill is to the living entities in general.

so why do you kill!!!!!!!!!!

 

J.S das