Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

[Guest guest]

I am doing some personal research and would like some information on "siddha-pranali." What is it, and what are its origins? In what texts of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas is it first mentioned?

 

I would be very happy for explicit references, i.e. book title, chapter, and verse number if possible.

 

Thanks

[muralidhar_das]

Jayakrishna das babaji of Vraja, who lived in the 17th century, 200 years after Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, was responsible for popularising the doctrine of Siddha Pranali. He was a very influential babaji in this period, after the departure from this world of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. There is some precedent for this doctrine in the writings of Dhyanachandra Goswami, a disciple of Gopala Guru Goswami, but the Siddha Pranali theory as taught by Jayakrishna das babaji introduced some added beliefs that were not enunciated previously.

 

Srila Jagannatha das Babaji did not follow this Siddha Pranali tradition, as he received his vesha (sannyasa) from a babaji who was a follower of Madhusudana das babaji of Suryakunda. This Madhusudana das babaji did not know his "Siddha Pranali" so when he went to see this revered Jayakrishna das babaji he was rejected and told, "I cannot teach you about raganuga bhakti", but then Madhusudana das babaji personally met with Sri Radha who gave him everything he needed to understand, so he could practice fully enlightened bhajan.

 

The details of these things are not necessary to understand, if you have not progressed to the stage of anartha-nivritti. First, give up lust, anger, deceit, etc., then the higher principles of raganuga bhakti will automatically awaken in your heart. This is the teaching of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami and my Divine Master, Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Maharaj, who often stated "fools rush in where angels fear to tread." That is, you don't need to know about Siddha Pranali, because knowledge of the higher truths of Krishna Consciousness will reveal themselves automatially in your heart when the temple of your heart is swept clean of all anarthas (bad things) through the process of sravana-kirtana (hearing and chanting).

 

Guest, you asked for the references. Here is the oldest reference to siddha pranali:

<hr>

In this meditation, before anything else, the practitioner should meditate on the manjari-forms of his guru-pranali, beginning with his guru, then parama-guru, etc. Then he shall meditate on Sri Radhika and after that Sri Nandanandana Krishna.

- (Paddhati of Dhyanacandra Gosvami, 344)

 

<hr>

 

[raga]

You may find this document (PDF) informative.

[raga]

 

Srila Jagannatha das Babaji did not follow this Siddha Pranali tradition, as he received his vesha (sannyasa) from a babaji who was a follower of Madhusudana das babaji of Suryakunda. This Madhusudana das babaji did not know his "Siddha Pranali" so when he went to see this revered Jayakrishna das babaji he was rejected and told, "I cannot teach you about raganuga bhakti", but then Madhusudana das babaji personally met with Sri Radha who gave him everything he needed to understand, so he could practice fully enlightened bhajan.

 

 

I have personally seen siddha-pranalikas traced through Siddha Jagannath Das Babaji. There is certainly siddha-pranali given among his disciples and in the subsequent paramparas.

 

There is a nuance you're forgetting in the story of Siddha Madhusudan Das Babaji. Radha also told him to not initiate anyone or reveal his mantra to anyone on account of the extraordinary circumstances surrounding him. Interpret that as you will, I take it as her endorsement of the existing methods of bhajan that shouldn't be intervened with.

 

By the way, I think you're dating Jayakrishna Das Babaji a bit on the early side. Early 1800's is closer to the truth as far as his period of influence goes, though he may have been born in late 1700's. Certainly not in the 17th century (which means 1600-1699).

[Guest guest]

I was looking over your PDF and I have a question about your translations of verses, are they yours?

 

For instance this verse from the Prema Bhakti Candrika:

 

sakhinam sangini-rupam

atmanam vasana-mayim

ajna-seva-param tat-tat-

krpalankara-bhusitam

 

Which also appears in the Sanat Kumar Samhita:

 

atmanam cintayet tatra tasam madhye manoramam

rupa-yauvana-sampannam kisorim pramadakrtim

sakhinam sangini-rupam atmanam vasanamayim

ajna-sevaparam tat tat krpalankara-bhusitam

 

In your version the word krpalankara is replaced with rupalankara. Is that a typo? Or are the other mentions of this verse on the web incorrect in your opnion?

 

Your translation of this verse from the PBC is:

 

"One should meditate on oneself in a form that is a female associate of the sakhis, engaged in services on their command, decorated by Her ornaments"

 

The other translations on the web make no mention of ornaments, and instead use the word mercy from krpalankara.

 

This is the only translation I could find on the web for that verse.

 

"One should meditate on oneself as being the maidservant of the gopis, and in this way one will attain their mercy"

 

When I looked at the sanskrit of the verse I could find no word for "maidservant" nor "female".

 

So both your version and the other seem to be totaly different translations. Do you have a word for word explanation at how you arrived at your translation?

 

Another thing. At the beginning of your PDF you state that "siddha pranali consists of a guru pranali, a channel of gurus in their siddha forms (manjari swarupa).

 

Why only a channel of gurus in their manjari swarupa?

 

According to Gaudiya tattva raganuga and ragatmika devotees will be naturally attracted to one of a variety of rasas.

 

From CC Madhya Lila

 

 

 

seva sadhaka-rupena

siddha-rupena catra hi

tad-bhava-lipsuna karya

vraja-lokanusaratah

 

SYNONYMS

 

seva -- service; sadhaka-rupena -- with the external body as a devotee practicing regulative devotional service; siddha-rupena -- with a body suitable for eternal, self-realized service; ca -- also; atra -- in this connection; hi -- certainly; tat -- of that; bhava -- the mood; lipsuna -- desiring to obtain; karya -- to be executed; vraja-loka -- of a particular servant of Krsna in Vrndavana; anusaratah -- by following in the footsteps.

 

TRANSLATION

 

'The advanced devotee who is inclined to spontaneous loving service should follow the activities of a particular associate of Krsna's in Vrndavana. He should execute service externally as a regulative devotee as well as internally from his self-realized position. Thus he should perform devotional service both externally and internally.'

 

 

nijabhista krsna-prestha pacheta' lagiya

nirantara seva kare antarmana hana

 

SYNONYMS

 

nija-abhista -- one's own choice; krsna-prestha -- the servitor of Krsna; pacheta' lagiya -- following; nirantara -- twenty-four hours a day; seva -- service; kare -- executes; antarmana -- within the mind; hana -- being.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Actually the inhabitants of Vrndavana are very dear to Krsna. If one wants to engage in spontaneous loving service, he must follow the inhabitants of Vrndavana and constantly engage in devotional service within his mind.

 

 

krsnam smaran janam casya

prestham nija-samihitam

tat-tat-katha-ratas casau

kuryad vasam vraje sada

 

SYNONYMS

 

krsnam -- Lord Krsna; smaran -- thinking of; janam -- a devotee; ca -- and; asya -- of His; prestham -- very dear; nija-samihitam -- chosen by oneself; tat-tat-katha -- to those respective topics; ratah -- attached; ca -- and; asau -- that; kuryat -- should do; vasam -- living; vraje -- in Vrndavana; sada -- always.

 

TRANSLATION

 

'The devotee should always think of Krsna within himself and should choose a very dear devotee who is a servitor of Krsna in Vrndavana. One should constantly engage in topics about that servitor and his loving relationship with Krsna, and one should live in Vrndavana. If one is physically unable to go to Vrndavana, he should mentally live there.'

 

 

dasa-sakha-pitradi-preyasira gana

raga-marge nija-nija-bhavera ganana

 

SYNONYMS

 

dasa -- servants; sakha -- friends; pitr-adi -- parents; preyasira gana -- conjugal lovers; raga-marge -- on the path of spontaneous loving service; nija-nija -- of one's own choice; bhavera -- of the ecstasy; ganana -- counting.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Krsna has many types of devotees -- some are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. Devotees who are situated in one of these attitudes of spontaneous love according to their choice are considered to be on the path of spontaneous loving service.

 

ei panca sthayi bhava haya panca 'rasa'

ye-rase bhakta 'sukhi', krsna haya 'vasa'

 

ei panca -- these five kinds of transcendental mellows; sthayi bhava -- permanent ecstatic moods; haya -- become; panca rasa -- five kinds of transcendental mellows; ye-rase -- in a particular mellow; bhakta sukhi -- a devotee becomes happy; krsna -- Lord Krsna; haya -- becomes; vasa -- under the control.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"These five transcendental mellows exist permanently. The devotee may be attracted to one of these mellows, and thus he becomes happy. Krsna also becomes inclined toward such a devotee and comes under his control.

 

 

In the original Gaudiya teachings on raganuga bhakti we find no mention of siddha pranali, nor do we find an exclusivity of raganuga in the original Gaudiya tattva given to manjari bhava.

 

The teachings on Raganuga given above by Sri Caitanya Himself are teaching a different ideology then the siddha pranali school of raganuga. Mahaprabhu mentions the various rasas available to the sadhaka in the lives of the residents of Vraja and how a person will naturally be attracted to one of those rasas.

 

 

CC Madhya 22.148: "My dear Sanatana, I have now in detail described devotional service according to the regulative principles. Now hear from Me about spontaneous devotional service and its characteristics.

 

CC Madhya 22.149: "The original inhabitants of Vrndavana are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrndavana, his devotional service is called raganuga bhakti.

 

CC Madhya 22.150: "'When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called ragatmika, or spontaneous devotional service.'

 

CC Madhya 22.151: "The primary characteristic of spontaneous love is deep attachment for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absorption in thought of Him is a marginal characteristic.

 

CC Madhya 22.152: "Thus devotional service which consists of raga [deep attachment] is called ragatmika, spontaneous loving service. If a devotee covets such a position, he is considered to be most fortunate.

 

CC Madhya 22.153: "If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love.

 

CC Madhya 22.154: "'Devotional service in spontaneous love is vividly expressed and manifested by the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Devotional service that accords with their devotional service is called raganuga bhakti, or devotional service following in the wake of spontaneous loving service.'

 

CC Madhya 22.155: "'When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.'

 

 

So I have to call into question the promotion of a manjari bhava centric ideology as being authentic Gaudiya tattva.

 

For instance you quote Baladeva Vidhyabhusana in your PDF:

 

This bhakti is being promulagated from the eternal devotees of Sri Hari down to the present day practicing devotees like the current of the Mandakini river.Bhakti is always present among the nitya parshadas in the nitya dhama flowing to this world through the bhakti pranali like the stream of the Mandakini.

 

You then comment immediately following the above:

 

The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari swarupa specifically reserved for him...

 

This is the problem. What your style of teaching doea is slant Gaudiya tattva towards trying to convince everyone that the real authentic teachings are all about attaining your manjari swarupa, which is defintely not the teaching of Sri Caitanya nor any of the 6 Goswamis. Their method of teaching raganuga bhakti is cited above. They preached that a person will naturally awaken a desire to follow in the footsteps of a nitya parshada resident of the nitya dhama. Be they gopi, gopa, parent, servant, etc.

 

Nowhere in any of the teachings of the 6 Goswamis nor Mahaprabhu himself do we find raganuga being taught as being exclusively about attaining a manjari swarupa in manjari bhava. But this is exactly how thoe who teach about siddha pranali teach, and even those who do not teach about siddha pranali also sometimes preach like that.

 

 

 

Your dissertation only mentions siddha pranali in conjunction with manjari bhava. Is that appropriate?

 

A bhakta will naturally be attracted towards a specific bhava and mood of service. It is inherent within the bhakta. Everyone is different. If you teach that everyone should try and realize their manjari swarupa, then that is not the authentic teachings.

 

From Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu (1.2.295):

 

 

When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra or on logic and argument.

 

 

 

Some people have stated that if a devotee is not in manjari bhava or trying to attain to manjari bhava then he is not a Rupanuga.

 

Since our sampradaya is known as the Rupanuga sampradaya, this kind of teaching is coercing everyone into trying to become manjaris.

 

But Rupa Goswami in the above and elswhere does not teach that. A real rupanuga is someone who teaches what Rupa Goswami teaches, not that he or she needs to try and be in his rasa or imitate his rasa.

 

If you tell your students that the best thing they can be is a manjari, then of course they will all try and see themselves and view their relationship with Radha Krishna in that mentality.

 

They will naturally want to be a Rupanuga, and they will naturally want to attain the highest position for themselves. That is not raganuga. As cited above a persons eternal bhava, his eternal rasa with Radha Krishna, will naturally manifest. If you teach people that only manjari bhava is considered the authentic teachings of Sri Caitanya and his followers, then by that teaching you create a disturbance in their natural development of their eternal mood. It is called spontaneous because it arises from a natural desire. If that desire is not natural, if it is the product of coercive teachings to accept only one bhava as being the authentic teachings, then that is apasiddhanta and should be rejected.

 

That is why these topics are not to be presented in a manjari bhava centric fashion.

 

Everyone is different. Everyone is supposed to develop their relationship with Radha Krishna naturally. They will naturally be attracted to a specific Bhava and Rasa.

 

If you interfere with that process by teaching they are supposed to manjaris, only manjaris are Rupanugas, manjaris, manjaris, manjaris. Then you do a disservice and are not qualified to teach.

 

From the Caitanya Siksamrta by Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

 

Among the angas of bhakti mentioned in vaidhi bhakti such as kirtana , those which are favorable for his service are accepted by the practitioner of rägänugä. Those aspiring for däsya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Patraka and other servants; those desirous of sakhya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Subala and other friends; those desirous of parental rasa copy the mood and gestures of Yañodä and other elders; and those desirous of madhura rasa copy the mood, service and gestures of the Vraja gopis.

 

...There are two types of taste of greed: temporary and natural. Sometimes devotees hear about the qualities of Nanda or Subala, derive great bliss and sometimes show similar sentiments, but this bliss and the show of sentiments are short-lived. This is called temporary greed. There is no use in such a show.

 

It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -däsya, sakhya, vätsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood.

 

If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple.

 

It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhurya rasa.

 

If a guru finds it impossible for him to decide the rasa of the disciple, he will honestly admit his inability to the disciple and direct him to approach a suitable guru. The disciple has no alternative but to take shelter of the lotus feet of the bona fide guru."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das]

 

In Madhavananda's article, he states:

<blockquote>

The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari-svarupa specifically reserved for him and is

blessed with allegiance to the siddha-pranali corresponding to the channel of his gurus.

</blockquote>

 

Here, Madhavananda is representing those people who believe that someone is awarded a spiritual body; i.e. that the spiritual body of a liberated soul is something that is superimposed upon the soul.

 

However, in the Vedanta Sutra the final topic raised by Badarayana (Vyasa) is the question: "When a soul attains liberation does the soul attain a body that is different from himself, as the bodies of demigods are different from their inner self, or does the soul manifest his original identity which is not different from himself?"

 

And then Vyasa gives his conclusion, that the liberated soul does not get a spiritual body superimposed upon it.

 

Baladeva Vidyabhusan, in his Govinda Bhasya commentary, agrees with Vyasa (who would disagree???). Baladev argues that a liberated soul manifests his own spiritual body that was lying dormant within, when he was in the non-liberated state.

 

Baladeva quotes the verse below from Padma Purana, to substantiate this:

anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha

aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah Sanatanh

"The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body,

is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is

unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme."

 

Madhavananda also stated:

<blockquote>

The guru, being the bhagavat-kåpä-svarüpa (a form of the Lord’s mercy), by dint of the empowerment received from Him, has the insight to reveal the various details of the siddha-rüpa of the disciple.

</blockquote>

 

I agree that an empowered Guru can reveal this sort of information to a disciple. But what I would challenge is the proposition that a guru who is not liberated from lust, pride, etc. would be able to envision and reveal "the various details of the siddha-rüpa of the disciple".

 

According to the "traditionalists", the accepted traditionalist gurus can reveal the details of a person's swarup-siddhi to all their new disciples. But say for instance there is a man who is a traditionalist guru, and this man still feels attracted to ladies bodies because he has urges for sexual enjoyment. Can a man like that really claim to be able to reveal someone's "manjari swarup" to a new disciple? Well you know, there are men who are actually doing that. Gadadhar Pran...

 

The fact of the matter is that many so-called gurus are not real gurus at all, and many of the things they teach are untrue or are taught with a mixed-in flavour of materialism.

 

[muralidhar_das]

The siddha-pranali of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji would be the line of his diksa-guru, Jagadananda Gosvami, would it not? The diksa parampara of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji is the lineage of Jagadananda Gosvami, whereas we who are disciples in the line of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji are more interested in the siksa, the inspiration that came from Visvanatha and Baladeva and was revealed in the heart of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji -- and which was transferred to the heart of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Also, according to Srila Jagannath Das Babaji's personal servant Bihari das Babaji, Srila Saraswati Thakur also met and associated with Srila Jagannath Das Babaji when he was a child. Srila Saraswati Thakur also directly associated with Srila Jagannath Das Babaji and he received his blessings. In our sampradaya which is coming from Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur, we are told to place more attention to the inspiration and teachings that flow down like the stream of the Mandakini. That stream flowed from Visvanatha to Baladeva, then to Jagannatha and Bhaktivinoda. This is the conclusion of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati, and this is what you see listed in the Guru-parampara list given by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami in the front of his Bhagavad-gita As It Is.

 

The vesha guru of Srila Jagannath Das Babaji was Madhusudana das Babaji.

 

Madhusudana das Babaji tried to kill himself because nobody would teach him how to perform sadhana (raganuga sadhana). But Srimate Radharani had mercy on him. He attained her grace simply through his sincerity. Others can do that too. You don't need a palm-leaf with words written on it to enter Goloka in the form of a Gopi. If that form is there within your heart it will manifest, naturally. Like in the example of the sages in Ram-lila who wanted to become gopis. None of them had a palm-leaf with names of siddha-gurus on it, and nobody ever told them about their ornamentation, but they entered Goloka anyway.

 

yad-bhava-bhavita-dhiyo manujas tathaiva

samprapya rupa-mahimasana-yana-bhusah

suktair yam eva nigama-prathitaih stuvanti

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

 

I adore the same Govinda, the primeval Lord, in whose praise men, who are imbued with devotion, sing the mantra-suktas told by the Vedas, by gaining their appropriate beauty, greatness, thrones, conveyances and ornaments.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the responses. I tend to agree with you, Muralidhar Prabhu, regarding your concerns over qualification. The reason I asked the question is that I have in several instances seen people scoffing at the followers of Bhaktisiddhanata Saraswati because "they don't even know their siddha-pranali." I am chiefly interested in whether or not lack of "siddha-pranali" is a valid basis for this sort of exclusivism among followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

I am also skeptical of the implicit notion that anyone who offers a "siddha-pranali" is ipso facto a qualified mystic who can do so. As per my understanding, a guru who gives the siddha-pranali must actually know what his disciple's siddha-deha is. How does one know that the guru knows this? If my guru did not know, I would prefer he not make something up simply to satisfy tradition.

 

"Jayakrishna das babaji of Vraja, who lived in the 17th century, 200 years after Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, was responsible for popularising the doctrine of Siddha Pranali. He was a very influential babaji in this period, after the departure from this world of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. There is some precedent for this doctrine in the writings of Dhyanachandra Goswami, a disciple of Gopala Guru Goswami, but the Siddha Pranali theory as taught by Jayakrishna das babaji introduced some added beliefs that were not enunciated previously. "

 

Could you please elaborate on the differences between Dhyanachandra Gosvami's concept of siddha-pranali, and the siddha-pranali taught/practiced by Jayakrishna das? Are these differences significant from a doctrinal standpoint?

 

I'm also a little unclear on some points raised in the paper given by Raga. For example, it is mentioned (quoting from the commentaries by Jiva, Visvanatha, and Mukunda) that the siddha-deha is a mentally conceived form suitable for service. But later it is stated, "The siddha-deha one longs to attain is not a figment of imagination; it is one among the infinite siddha-rupas awaiting in the spiritual realm." So, which is it? Is the form conceived by the guru or is it a form in the spiritual realm seen by the guru?

 

Also, the question arises that, "Given that the sadhaka is yet to attain siddhi and subsequently a parsada-deha (body of an associate) in Vraja, one may be perplexed over whether it is possible to contemplate on a siddha-deha prior to the attainment of siddhi." In answer to this, the commentators are quoted saying:

 

siddha-rUpeNa-antash-chintitAbhIShTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | "In the siddha-form means in an internally conceived, desired body suitable for His service."

 

I'm not clear on how this answers the question. Perhaps I'm missing the context, but all this says is what a siddha-rupa is. It says nothing about the qualification of one to meditate on it. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.

 

I have also read the stated in Bhakti-rasamrta Sindhu about the qualification for raganuga bhakti being that intense longing. But I am still unclear as to whether one can have this lobha and still maintain material attachments. If one is not even following ordinary regulations of varnasrama (maintaining a girlfriend, smoking, eating at restaurants, etc), can he still have this intense greed for raganuga? I am somewhat skeptical.

 

This is a nice discussion, and I hope it will continue.

[kailasa]

Sidha pranali it is not main thing. Devotion for Lord it is siddha pranali. From devotion, yours siddha pranali emanate.

 

Mood Lord Caitanya it is supreme, from this mood person EASY take own siddha pranali. Siddha pranali it is ONLY Krisna lila it is step on path devotion servise.

 

You AKT in Krisna lila, siddha pranali it is some external atributhes. Srila Prabhupada write - "real siddha pranali boundless". Some only worship Krisna lila, but it is not main mood, and it is not whole Gaudiya.

 

Real edukation - it is equal position between Krisna lila Gaura lila it is preach SBT, but pure devotion preach Srila Prabhupada. Pure devotion it is mood Lord Caitanya, and pure devotee expansion Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Srila Prabhupada.

 

Some persons (babajis) do not understand word "rupanuga". babjis do not real rupanugas, but this kanistha adhikari babajis some speak about Srila Prabhupada position.

[muralidhar_das]

quote:

<blockquote>"Jayakrishna das babaji of Vraja, who lived in the 17th century, 200 years after Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva, was responsible for popularising the doctrine of Siddha Pranali. He was a very influential babaji in this period, after the departure from this world of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. There is some precedent for this doctrine in the writings of Dhyanachandra Goswami, a disciple of Gopala Guru Goswami, but the Siddha Pranali theory as taught by Jayakrishna das babaji introduced some added beliefs that were not enunciated previously. "

 

Could you please elaborate on the differences between Dhyanachandra Gosvami's concept of siddha-pranali, and the siddha-pranali taught/practiced by Jayakrishna das? Are these differences significant from a doctrinal standpoint?

</blockquote>

 

Madhavananda may be right in saying that Jayakrishna das babaji was living a little later, say at the beginning of the eighteenth century. Some details of his life are recorded in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidana written by Haridas das, a book that is full of many errors; I mainly know of him from that source and from discussions with followers of the "siddha-pranali" tradition such as Madhavananda.

 

May I say, I respect Madhavananda and I respect his right to follow the path he has chosen. But I do disagree on many points with the conclusions he and his fellow travellers believe in.

 

Specifically, the so-called "traditionalists" follow the ideas of Jayakrishna das babaji who taught that a person needs to know the manjari name, features and ornamentation of his Guru and the predecessor Gurus before the disciple can engage in raganuga sadhana bhakti.

In Bhaktirasamrtasindhu (verse 1.2.291), Srila Rupa Goswamipada presented his opinion about what the qualifications are, for someone who wants to engage in raganuga bhakti. He wrote:

 

tatra adhikari:

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like

Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja"

- they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

 

That is, anyone who feels an attraction for Krishna the son of Nanda is eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti. You need a to take initiation in the Krishna-mantra from a genuine Guru, of course; but you don't need to know any descriptions of your siddha-deha or your Gurus siddha-deha.

 

In the tradition followed by Madhavananda the Guru will tell a disciple about his siddha-deha and tell the disciple his manjari name. But Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said that this is all unnecessary, for when the heart is purified by hearing and chanting the Holy Names this knowledge of the siddha-deha will spontaneously awaken. There is no need to sit and meditate on your siddha-deha each morning, before you go out to the coffee shop for a capuccino and buttered toast. Just meditate on the Hare Krishna mantra, the best of all mantras.

 

And another point also: as was mentioned earlier, Baladeva Vidyabhusan taught that the siddha-deha is within us already, and that a devotee does not enter into a spiritual body or "manjari-svarupa specifically reserved for him" (to use Madhavananda's words). Either Baladeva & Vyasa are right on this point when they say that the spiritual body is latent within us, or the modern-day babajis are right when they say a spiritual body is "reserved" for you and you enter into that suit that is waiting for you in some closet in the spiritual world. I personally choose to follow Baladeva Vidyabusana & Vyasadev. But some other folks choose to follow a different teaching.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Raga (Madhavananda): In your PDF you wrote:

 

 

 

This quest for a siddha-identity in the land of Vraja is at the core of raganuga-sadhana. The concepts of raganuga and ragatmika have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere;

there is no need to delve further into that in this context. In essence, the sadhaka is to one day become akin to the associates of Sri Radha and Krishna, the ragatmika-jana.

 

Given that the sadhaka is yet to attain siddhi and subsequently a parshada-deha (body of an associate) in Vraja, one may be perplexed over whether it is possible to contemplate on a siddha-deha prior to the attainment of siddhi. The commentators on the aforementioned verse by Sri Rupa all state with a single voice:

 

siddha-rupena antas-cintitabhishta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | Sri Jiva & Sri Visvanatha

 

“In the siddha-form means in an internally conceived, desired body suitable for His service.”

 

siddha-rupena manas-cintita-svabhishta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena| Sri Mukunda

 

“In the siddha-form means in a mentally conceived, desired body suitable for His service.”

 

Hence, at the time of sadhana,one is to contemplate on a suitable, desired siddha-deha in his mind. However, how is one to acquire information of that which is beyond his sense

perception and intellectual abilities?

 

The traditional answer should satisfy an audience of

practicing Vaishnavas:

 

tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam.

 

Approach a guru to learn of the highest welfare for the soul. As Sri Jivapada has explained from Bhakti-sandarbha 312:

 

kecid ashtadasakshara-dhyanam go-dohana-samaya-vamsi-vadya-samakrishta-tattat-sarvamayatvena bhavayanti | yatha caike tadrisam upasanam sakshad vrajajana-viseshayaiva mahyam sri-guru-caranair mad-abhishta-visesha-siddhy-artham upadishtam bhavayami ||

 

"“Some, while remembering the eighteen-syllable mantra, meditate on the pastimes of tending cows and playing flute, becoming attracted and absorbed in them. In such upasana (worship), in order to attain my specifically desired

perfection, I should meditate on that very form of a resident of Vraja my revered guru has instructed me in.”

 

 

 

Your translation of that verse from the Bhakti Sandarbha makes an implication which makes no sense in light of the previous verses you quote. The previous quotes suggest that the form to be conceived of will be based on the person's desire. You then quote Jiva Goswami implying that the guru will instruct the sadhaka on the form he will conceive of. Which is the basic idea you try and get across about guru-pranali in your PDF.

 

Another translation of the same verse I found on the web differs from your own:

 

"Some devotees chant the eighteen-syllable mantra and meditate on Lord Krsna surrounded by all His associates attracted by the music of His flute at the time for milking the cows. Other devotees think in this way: "I chant this mantra that my spiritual master has given me so that I may attain my desire and become one of the people of Vraja."

 

That translation is in keeping with the previous verses you cite which leaves the form that the sadhaka conceives of, up to his or her natural attraction, and then the guru can give relevant instructions based on the natural desire of the sadhaka. I quoted a verse from Caitanya Siksamrta to that effect earlier. And in fact this is what we find in from Sri Caitanya and from Sri Rupa:

 

From Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu and the CC

 

 

 

When a devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra or on logic and argument.

 

 

Later in your dissertation you confirm this by quoting from Jiva Goswami:

 

 

tatra bhUta-zuddhir nijAbhilaSita-bhagavat-sevopayika-tat-pArSada-dehabhAvanA-

paryantaiva tat-sevaika-puruSArthibhiH kAryA nijanukulyat | evaM

yatra yatrAtmano nijAbhISTa-devatA-rUpatvena cintanaM vidhIyate tatra tatraiva

pArSadatve grahaNaM bhAvyam ||

Bhakti-sandarbha 286

 

“Thereupon one purifies his existence by contemplating on his own desired bhagavat-sevA (service to the Lord) and pArSada-deha (associate-form) suitable for such service; thus one engages in the desired service for his own auspiciousness. Thus, wherever one is, he should engage in meditating on the form of his own desired devata and in the future attain the status of an associate of His.”

 

 

 

So a bhakta will naturally be attracted to a specific type of relationship with Krishna, the guru does not reveal that. The guru gives instructions to help the sadhaka in his mediation.

 

Then you make another comment:

 

 

The mercy and revelations of Bhagavan and His parsadas descend to this world through the medium of guru-pranali

 

 

 

Then you quote the following verse from Baladeva Vidyabhusana to back up your contention:

 

 

This bhakti is being promulagated from the eternal devotees of Sri Hari down to the present day practicing devotees like the current of the Mandakini river. Bhakti is always present among the nitya parshadas in the nitya dhama flowing to this world through the bhakti pranali like the stream of the Mandakini.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you on the use of that verse to support your premise. The guru-pranali concept you are promoting is not the same thing as the bhakti-pranali concept Sri Baladeva was writing about. He writes bhakti is:

 

"flowing to this world through the bhakti pranali"

 

The guru-pranali you promote teaches that specific persons are in an unbroken chain or pranali or succession of gurus who pass on a specific teaching i.e giving out your manjari swarupa etc. Sri Baladeva was writing about bhakti in general, flowing through the succession of "practicing devotees". He makes no reference to a specific type of bhakti practice, nor to a specific type of guru.

 

You then add this immediately following the Sri Baladeva quote:

 

 

The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari swarupa specifically reserved for him and is blessed with allegiance to the siddha-pranali corresponding to the channel of his gurus

 

 

 

So you take a verse from Sri Baladeva that has nothing at all to do with the concept of guru-pranali nor manjari swarupas, and then attempt to use that verse to validate your ideas.

 

You also correctly write about Lobha, yearning or greed, as being the sole qualification for the sadhaka to be able to engage in raganuga bhakti, which you equate with lila smaranam. Not all lobha is real lobha ie. based on the desire to be with Krishna.

 

Prematurely a person can think that his desire for elevation to Goloka is synonymous with lobha and ruci. That is not necessarily real lobha, it may be temporary lobha based on the desire for liberation from suffering or to enjoy more sense enjoyment. This is from the Raga Vartma Candrika:

 

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has personally given the following definition of lobha (sacred greed):

 

When the heart yearns for the sweetness of the moods of Krishna and His eternal associates in Vraja, and one is not prompted by scriptural injunctions or logical arguments, then that is the definition of sacred greed.

 

If one thinks "let such greed arise in me also", after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Krishna of His associates the gopis in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments.

 

If such impetuses are there [scriptural injunctions and logical arguments e.g desire for elevation], then it cannot be justly called lobha. This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether he is qualified for the path of raganuga bhakti or not.

 

Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him.

 

 

 

So Sri Rupa is saying real lobha is not inspired by the desire to attain liberation, to want what one is supposed to want based on the instructions of sastras and sadhus. Real lobha is simply the actual desire devoid of any other motivation other then wanting to be in a relationship with Radha and Krishna following in the mood of their liberated devotees.

 

Visvanath continues:

 

 

There are two causes for the appearance of greed:

 

The mercy of God or the mercy of another anuragi devotee.

 

There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:

 

Praktana and adhunika. Praktana means mercy bestowed by a raganuga in a previous life, and adhunika is mercy bestowed in the present birth.

 

The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a raganuga guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.

 

It is said (in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu): "The only causes of the appearance of greed is the mercy of Krishna or His devotee. Therefore some call the path of raganuga bhakti pusti marga (the path of mercy).

 

 

 

You then also quote from the Raga Vartma Candrika to back up your point:

 

 

When the eye is smeared with medicinal ointment, it's ability of reception becomes more and more refined, and accordingly it is able to perceive more and more subtle objects; similarly according to the degree of the mind's having become purified by hearing and chanting of My purifying pastimes, all the subtle truths of reality become manifest in the heart of the sadhaka.

 

 

 

There is a verse right after that one which you did not see fit to quote:

 

 

Uddhava says in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.29.6: Krishna reveals Himself through the acarya or through the agency of the caitya guru. Thus some devotee attains knowledge about the moods of Krishna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practise of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts.

 

 

 

So this directly contradicts the idea that a person's siddha form is dependent on a guru-pranali. You want to use Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura to back up some part of your argument for guru-pranali ideology, yet you leave out the part where he says that a guru-pranali is not needed. He mentions 3 ways to receive the relevant knowledge: Guru, other raganuga vaisnavas, or from caitya guru.

 

So this was your original thesis set forth at the beginning :

 

 

A siddha-pranali consists of the guru-pranali, a channel of gurus, in their siddha-forms

(manjari-svarupas). One’s own guru, his guru, and the subsequent gurus traced back to

the associates of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu form the guru-pranali, or guru-parampara.

In due course of time, a guru in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya reveals the details of

his own siddha-form, of the siddha-forms of the preceding gurus, and of the siddha-form

of the sadhaka to the qualified practitioner. This is popularly called the giving of siddhapranali,

as the initiate becomes the last link in a channel of manjaris preserved over the

generations from a guru to a disciple.

 

 

 

So again I have to question the validity of you trying to preach that:

 

In due course of time, a guru in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya reveals the details of his own siddha-form, of the siddha-forms of the preceding gurus, and of the siddha-form of the sadhaka to the qualified practitioner

 

This attempt to present Raganuga Bhakti in such a narrow manner is coercive and disruptive to a sadhakas natural development of ruci and lobha for a particular type of relationship. By setting the parameters of authentic Gaudiya Vaisnavism as being strictly about Manjari Bhava, about strictly the method of the guru-pranali you advocate, you then actually misrepresent the original teachings on these topics.

 

The effect on devotees who hear from these teachings of yours and others is that they will be coerced into what may not be real lobha. They will attempt to be a raganuga bhakta based on being told what they should be doing, instead of doing what comes naturally for them.

 

You teach exclusively about manjari bhava and that mood as being raganuga. Ignorant people who hear from you and don't know better will then think they should follow your instructions because you quote verses from authorities. They will then attempt to engage in raganuga bhajan in manjari bhava, but it will not be based on real lobha, it will be based on doing what they think they have to do according to scriptural injunctions.

 

As already cited, that is not raganuga. If scriptural injunctions become the motivation for raganuga bhakti, or thinking that doing raganuga bhakti in one specific bhava or rasa is a necessity, based on being told what that bhava or rasa should be, then that is not real raganuga.

 

Real raganuga can not be something which is done at the behest of anything other then the spontaneous desire to be with Radha Krishna in a specific rasa and bhava. That means without being coerced into that specific bhava and rasa by people who are not experienced in the matter at hand.

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das]

Very nice, Shiva.

 

And this is an interesting point that you have brought up here. Following on from what you say, we might suggest that the people who have been told "manjari bhava is the highest" and who then want to attain the highest thing may not be real raganuga practitioners at all. Rather, they may be people seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity.

 

 

 

[kailasa]

Tis is real simptoms raganuga, lobha, greed and "When the heart yearns for the sweetness of the moods of Krishna and His eternal associates in Vraja, and one is not prompted by scriptural injunctions or logical arguments..."

 

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

TEXT 11

TEXT

dona-buddhyobhayateto

ninedhan na nivartate

guea-buddhya ca vihitaa

na karoti yatharbhakau

 

SYNONYMS

dona-buddhya—because of thinking that such action is wrong; ubhaya-atetau—one who has transcended both (the conceptions of mundane right and wrong); ninedhat—from what is forbidden; na nivartate—he does not desist; guea-buddhya—because of thinking it is good; ca—also; vihitam—what is enjoined; na karoti—he does not do; yatha—just like; arbhakau—a young child.

 

TRANSLATION

 

One who has transcended material good and evil automatically acts in accordance with religious injunctions and avoids forbidden activities. The self-realized person does this spontaneously, like an innocent child, and not because he is thinking in terms of material good and evil.

[kailasa]

Madhavendra Puri kalpa vriksa, He is not manjari. Manjari higest in Krisna lila because they do not desire for himself ANYTHING. Gopi bhava means - "All for Krisna, nothing for me". Ouer(?) greed is Kubja /images/graemlins/smile.gif) "Krisna sweetness"

 

Manjari bhava - "all womans for Krisna" In Finland many womans? All womans Finland for Krisna? Yes? No? Oh, they needs BRS and siddha pranali may be /images/graemlins/smile.gif) May be 80% Finland womans from dasya Vaikuntha, but greed... No, no, they all manjari, needs siddha pranali. May be you lift theys in madhurya rasa? Hmm it is good. What you metods lifting so many material womans in madhurya rasa? /images/graemlins/smile.gif)) You has real, good metods? madhurya metods? greed, lobha /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

Spiritual emotions it is some BIG thing. It is OWN desire, it is YOURS heart, do not worry nobody, ALL your heart consist in OWN spiritual emotions, spiritual desires and ALL your specific desires stay in full garmony. We do not lost siddha pranali never. Ours siddha deha it is OWN desires relationship, eternal desires. Real it is all desires Krisna. Krisna sourse, Krisna desire, then all another desires. Krisna so kind, it is real.

 

Needs read SB and follow SB and from SB, Hare Krisna mantra heart clean. You may has not 1 siddha pranali. Devotee may stay in Vaikuntha one siiddha in Krisna lila another in Gaura lila 3. In big sense it is one spiritual body.

 

Real guru, pure devotee, in ANY rasa help for you understand yours siddha deha. Rupa Gosvami write vipralambha more higher then sambhoga it is real rupanuga.

[Guest guest]

Yes, it's like what I quoted, if someone is basing his so called raganuga bhakti on sciptural injunctions, or perceived scriptural injunctions i.e they should attempt to be manjaris, then that is not based on real Lobha and Ruci, it is based on trying to attain what they think they should be trying to attain instead of what they really desire based on their true inner nature.

 

Thats why not everyone is ready for Raganuga. There must first be ruci, or real feeings of attraction, and lobha or pure intense desire to be with Radha Krishna for the sake of being with them, not for the sake of attaining a higher type of existence, that is vaidhi bhakti.

 

As Jiva Goswami writes in Bhakti Sandarbha:

 

 

In the Gautamiya Tantra it is said:

 

"For they who are always fallen in love with the lotus feet of Lord Krsna there is no japa, no Deity worship, no meditation, and no rules."

 

When attraction (ruci) is not yet manifested even the best raganuga bhakti is considered to be mixed with vaidhi bhakti.

 

Even a devotee who has attraction (ruci) for the Lord may, in order to benefit the people of the world, engage in raganuga bhakti mixed with vaidhi bhakti. Therefore, in some situations it is appropriate to practice raganuga bhakti mixed with vaidhi bhakti.

 

 

 

 

Visvanatha states in Raga Vartma Candrika:

 

 

When one's devotion is prompted by orders received from the revealed scriptures, then it is called vaidhi bhakti. But when one is prompted simply by lobha, then it is called raganuga

 

 

If people prematurely think they have lobha or ruci based on the desire for elevation instead of emotional need, then they may prematurely give up vaidhi bhakti which is the process which will give rise to real lobha and real ruci.

[muralidhar_das]

Kailasa,

 

What you are saying is very good. We understand you are learning English and that it is not easy. But your ideas are good. Very good for us to read.

[Guest guest]

Kailasa you wrote:

 

 

Madhavendra Puri kalpa vriksa, He is not manjari. Manjari higest in Krisna lila because they do not desire for himself ANYTHING. Gopi bhava means - "All for Krisna, nothing for me". Ouer(?) greed is Kubja ) "Krisna sweetness"

 

 

No, that is incorrect. Madhurya rasa is the highest rasa because it is the sweetest rasa, the gopis are not the only ones in madhurya rasa, the priya narma sakhas, Krishna's closest gopa friends, are in a mixture of madhurya and sakhya with Krishna. Manjaris are not "highest because they do not desire anything for themselves". All the residents of Goloka are on the same level of purity in devotion. Madhurya rasa is simply the sweetest rasa, the rasa with the most nectar to be experienced.

[krsna]

When I think that Prabhupada & Bhaktisiddhanta have not given 'siddha pranali' and that I really need to find a Radha-kunda babaji from the 'traditional parivars' to give me knowledge of my 'siddha deha'...is that what you mean by 'seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity'???

 

Quote, "...people who have been told "manjari bhava is the highest" and who then want to attain the highest thing may not be real raganuga practitioners at all. Rather, they may be people seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity."

[muralidhar_das]

quote:

<blockquote>

When I think that Prabhupada & Bhaktisiddhanta have not given 'siddha pranali' and that I really need to find a Radha-kunda babaji from the 'traditional parivars' to give me knowledge of my 'siddha deha'...is that what you mean by 'seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity'???

</blockquote>

 

No.

 

I was thinking more in terms of one lady who used to frequent these forums, who was following the "gopi bhava" path, and who used to mock Uddhava because Uddhava said he said he wanted to become a blade of grass in Vraja in his next life. The gopi-bhava lady used to say "Radhey Radhey" all the time, and she really wanted to be a gopi and nothing less than a gopi.

 

Oh, by the way, there is this book I wrote which details the history of the Gaudiya Sampraday in the 17th-20th centuries.

http://www.mandala.com.au/books/sixgoswamis.pdf

[Guest guest]

Having read the arguments above I have become curious. Who are you Guest? I have read many articles on the Gaudiya Discussions site about "traditional" Gaudiya Vaisnavaism and became very confused. After reading your arugments here, I fully realise that Srila Bhaktisiddhata Prabhupada was right all along. Thank you!

[raga]

I was not really looking forward to having a debate over this, especially not in a free for all environment. There are people who think of themselves as qualified advocates of true rupanuga-siddhanta without having a guru who is engaged in rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana. I find such debates distasteful, you'll pardon me for that.

 

Those who want to discuss the practice and history of siddha-pranali in further detail know where to find me if they're interested.

 

* * * * *

 

However regarding those translations, a couple of notes.

 

 

For instance this verse from the Prema Bhakti Candrika: ... krpalankara-bhusitam ... Which also appears in the Sanat Kumar Samhita: ... ajna-sevaparam tat tat krpalankara-bhusitam ...

 

In your version the word krpalankara is replaced with rupalankara. Is that a typo? Or are the other mentions of this verse on the web incorrect in your opinion?

 

 

The reading "rUpAlaGkAra-bhUSitam" is repeated in the commentary of Srila Visvanath Chakravarti. We therefore take that as the correct reading.

 

 

 

"One should meditate on oneself in a form that is a female associate of the sakhis, engaged in services on their command, decorated by Her ornaments"

 

The other translations on the web make no mention of ornaments, and instead use the word mercy from krpalankara.

 

 

The word alaGkAra means "ornament".

 

 

 

"One should meditate on oneself as being the maidservant of the gopis, and in this way one will attain their mercy"

 

When I looked at the sanskrit of the verse I could find no word for "maidservant" nor "female".

 

 

saGginI-rUpam means "in the form of a female companion".

 

 

 

Another thing. At the beginning of your PDF you state that "siddha pranali consists of a guru pranali, a channel of gurus in their siddha forms (manjari swarupa).

 

Why only a channel of gurus in their manjari swarupa?

 

 

There may be other kinds of siddha-pranalis, I haven't seen any. In the paddhati of Dhyanachandra it specifically says to meditate on the manjari-svarupas of one's guru-varga. That's where what I say comes from.

 

 

 

 

siddha-rUpeNa-antash-chintitAbhIShTa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | "In the siddha-form means in an internally conceived, desired body suitable for His service."

 

I'm not clear on how this answers the question. Perhaps I'm missing the context, but all this says is what a siddha-rupa is. It says nothing about the qualification of one to meditate on it. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.

 

 

The passage doesn't define siddha-rUpa. It defines what "in siddha-rUpa" (siddha-rUpena) means during rAgAnugA-sAdhana.

 

Since bhAva-siddhi is attained only at the conclusion of sAdhana, and svarUpa-siddhi is the equivalent of the attainment of bhAva-bhakti (vide Visvanatha's Madhurya-kadambini ch.7), the meaning of "meditating on siddha-rUpa" has been explained for those in the stage of practice.

 

It does not indeed say anything about the qualification of one who can meditate on siddha-rUpa. However, since these are instructions for rAgAnugA-sAdhana, it is understood that if one is qualified for rAgAnugA-bhakti, one is also qualified for siddha-rUpa-sAdhana.

[raga]

I just wrote another, lengthy reply to clarify some of the points that our pUrva-pakSins have misunderstood, or are are misrepresenting for whatever other reason.

 

However the browser ate my reply. I take that as meaning I'll just leave it at that.

[raga]

 

I have read many articles on the Gaudiya Discussions site about "traditional" Gaudiya Vaisnavaism and became very confused.

 

 

Yes, you shouldn't be reading Gaudiya Discussions. I believe we even have a disclaimer somewhere for the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. They shouldn't be reading Gaudiya Discussions, but should rather follow their own respective gurus and be happy, instead of dragging their minds all over the cyberspace.

[krsna]

Guess there's not enough going on at GD that Raga has to come here to disturb our minds and bhajans.

 

"A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian* spring: there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again."

 

-Alexander Pope (1688-1744), _An_Essay_on_Criticism_.

 

( * Pieria is the region in Greece in which the muses, the protectors of art and sciences, and sources of inspiration, were thought to dwell.)

 

 

[krsna]

Nice book, makes me want to become guru-nistha:

 

Quote:

In Sri Tattva Sutra, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur explained that transcendental knowledge is

likened to the sun for these reasons:

transcendental knowledge is manifested from the

spiritual form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, transcendental knowledge is self-manifested,

transcendental knowledge destroys the darkness of ignorance, and

transcendental knowledge reveals all truths. All the scriptures are likened to rays of light

emanating from that sun of transcendental knowledge.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

 

bhakteyna sastram tadvidherjnanavirodhitvat

 

Pure devotees of Sri Krishna are not to be limited by the rules given in the scriptures

because their activities are based on spontaneous attachment which is transcendental to

rules and regulations.

 

-(Sri Tattva Sutra, 43)

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami warned that if we have not attained prema (divine

love for Krishna) we should not neglect to follow the general instructions about devotional

service presented in the scriptures. So many persons are thinking they have entered the path

of spontaneous devotion when in truth they are trudging in the mud of misunderstanding.

How fortunate we are, to be able to hear the instructions of Srila Saraswati Thakur so

wonderfully presented by Srila Gurudev. His advice and instructions will save us from going

down the wrong path!

In the scriptures we read the words of the great devotees of the past. If we are genuinely

serious in our search for Sri Krishna we will not neglect the words of advice given in Srimad

Bhagavatam, Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita, Sri Chaitanya Bhagavata and other Vaishnava

scriptures. Very clearly the message of Bhagavat Dharma is presented in the holy scriptures:

practice devotional service under the guidance of a genuine Guru.

May I have the opportunity to render service at the feet of my Divine Master, Om Vishnupad

Sri Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj, for all of my life, and for all of my

next life. My prayer is that I will not be diverted from the proper path by bad association, and

that I may have a chance to serve His Divine Grace with full attentive awareness now and

tomorrow and the day after that.

 

Muralidhar das