Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

[Guest guest]

 

Yes, you shouldn't be reading Gaudiya Discussions. I believe we even have a disclaimer somewhere for the followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. They shouldn't be reading Gaudiya Discussions, but should rather follow their own respective gurus and be happy, instead of dragging their minds all over the cyberspace.

 

 

I believe that condescending remarks like this are why followers of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati may not feel welcome on Gaudiya Discussions. Personally I find any forum to be inviting, regardless of differences of opinion, as long as all gurus are respected and we restrict ourselves to discussing/refuting ideas rather than character attacks. It's been my observation that slights against Bhaktisiddhanta or Bhaktivedanta are the norm on gaudiya discussions.com. Were this not the case, I'm sure many of us would find it inviting. Though in all fairness I guess Audarya has its share of fanatics too....

 

 

There are people who think of themselves as qualified advocates of true rupanuga-siddhanta without having a guru who is engaged in rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana. I find such debates distasteful, you'll pardon me for that.

 

 

Just for fairness, I would point out that several self-proclaimed advocates of true rupanuga siddhanta on . do not have gurus who are engaged in rupanuga-sadhana, or any gurus at all. I'm just pointing it out since I do not think you discourage discussions with them.

 

Anyway, there are other good points here. I would have to agree with Shiva that a manjari-centric theology is not really in line with what I have read from BRS - however in all fairness to you I do not think you were exactly saying that either. Still, as you have pointed out, there are no non-manjari siddha-pranalis. Does this not beg the question as to why? What is one to do if he really is not a manjari, but has some other relationship? Is he automatically disqualified from raganuga bhakti because of the lack of a siddha-pranali?

 

Also, does being a follower of Sri Caitanya mean having a siddha-pranali and vice versa? If only manjari siddha-pranalis are available, then does this not logically imply that membership in the Caitanya club will be restricted to a select few who are destined to realize that bhAva-siddhi?

 

 

[kailasa]

Thanks Muralidhar Prabhu you inspire me.

[kailasa]

Hare Krisna Siva Prabhu, i am very glad again see you /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Madhurya rasa is the highest rasa because it is the sweetest rasa,

 

It is right. But it is some context. In example vipralambha not so sweet, but real higer position is vipralambha bhava. You write some right context only.

 

Anyway gopis, manjaris is most pure in they love. (I am do not speak about some falses gurus-folowers, rasikas as manjaris /images/graemlins/smile.gif They pollute all pure devotional servise theyr material motives. ) You above right write about this.

 

ANY rasa has exlusive moments. Then ANY rasa unikally(?). But in lila Lord Caitanya ALL rases go in higher level. In this case no any difference in all rasas.

 

Ramananda Ray is Pandava Arjuna but in Gaura lila He is close friend (sakhi) Lord Caitanya. Ramananda stay in highest level.

 

If some gurus preach only "madhurya", it is sekts simply, like Vallabhacarya.

[kailasa]

"...people who have been told "manjari bhava is the highest" and who then want to attain the highest thing may not be real raganuga practitioners at all. Rather, they may be people seeking a mental goal for reasons of personal vanity."

 

Good.

 

I was thinking more in terms of one lady who used to frequent these forums, who was following the "gopi bhava" path, and who used to mock Uddhava because Uddhava said he said he wanted to become a blade of grass in Vraja in his next life. The gopi-bhava lady used to say "Radhey Radhey" all the time, and she really wanted to be a gopi and nothing less than a gopi.

 

Good.

 

Another sence - SBST teach most higher mood.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for answering Raga.

 

You said sakhinam-sangini means a female associate of the sakhis. I wondered about that because when I looked up sangini on the web it was translated to mean associate or companion, it was never translated to identify gender, it was always translated as companion, not female companion. Using google these were the only hits to give a translation for sangini.

 

 

From Caitanya Caritamrta

 

 

tunde tandavini ratim vitanute tundavali-labdhaye

 

karna-kroda-kadambini ghatayate karnarbudebhyah sprham

 

cetah-prangana-sangini vijayate sarvendriyanam krtim

 

no jane janita kiyadbhir amrtaih krsneti varna-dvayi

 

SYNONYMS

 

tunde -- in the mouth; tandavini -- dancing; ratim -- the inspiration; vitanute -- expands; tunda-avali-labdhaye -- to achieve many mouths; karna -- of the ear; kroda -- in the hole; kadambini -- sprouting; ghatayate -- causes to appear; karna-arbudebhyah sprham -- the desire for millions of ears; cetah-prangana -- in the courtyard of the heart; sangini -- being a companion; vijayate -- conquers; sarva-indriyanam -- of all the senses; krtim -- the activity; na u -- not; jane -- I know; janita -- produced; kiyadbhih -- of what measure; amrtaih -- by nectar; krsna -- the name of Krsna; iti -- thus; varna-dvayi -- the two syllables.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"I do not know how much nectar the two syllables 'Krs-na' have produced. When the holy name of Krsna is chanted, it appears to dance within the mouth. We then desire many, many mouths. When that name enters the holes of the ears, we desire many millions of ears. And when the holy name dances in the courtyard of the heart, it conquers the activities of the mind, and therefore all the senses become inert."

 

 

And also from Narottama Das Thakura's Sri Prarthana

 

 

je sthane lila kare jugala-kisora

sakhira sangini hana tanhe hana bhora

 

Wherever the youthful Divine Couple go to perform transcendental pastimes I will follow as an associate of Their gopi-friends, and I will stay with Them until sunrise.

 

 

Or from Srila Raghunatha Dasa Goswami's SRI SRI RADHIKA ASTOTTARA SATA NAMA STOTRAM

 

 

radha gandharvika gosthayuva-rajaika-kamita

gandharva radhika candrakantir madhava-sangini

 

1. Radha, 2. Gandharvika, 3. The only girl desired by the prince of Vraja, 4. Who is worshipped by the Gandharva-angels, 5. Whose luster is like the moon, 6. Who accompanies Madhava.

 

 

 

And one other place gave a translation at sangini

 

 

 

In your use of rupalankara bhusitam-they will wear ornaments, like bangles-that differs from krpalankara bhusitam which would mean something like-adorned or decorated with the ornaments of mercy.

 

Whereas you write:

 

"One should meditate on oneself in a form that is a female associate of the sakhis, engaged in services on their command, decorated by Her ornaments"

 

Why are all versions of that verse that I could find, using the word krpalankara instead of rupalankara?

 

The basic meaning of the verse changes from having an esoteric meaning when using krpalankara bhusitam, to having a more basic attire based meaning when using rupalankara bhusitam.

 

These aren't big points, I was just interested in finding out how or why your version was different then the others I could find.

[kailasa]

There are people who think of themselves as qualified advocates of true rupanuga-siddhanta without having a guru who is engaged in rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana.

 

Ohhh, yeeesss. But... you know where we may having a guru who is engaged in rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana? We search real rasika guru! I am feel big greed. Without real "ragatmika" guru we never do not reach rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana! It is right Raga Prabhu? You has this wonderful guru?

 

Oh, of course i am sure - Raga Prabhu has real guru. What stage you Raga Baba - nistha? bhava? ...prema? You decorate young sakhis? You assist divine couple? Ohhh, you so happy person. You make true rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana.

 

All people! Who desire make rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana! Come and take siddha pranali for rupanuga-bhajana-sadhana! Scientifics mantras, half-side "rupanuga" /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

 

Raga, where Srila Prabhupada deviation from Rupa Gosvami. Pls give me list this "deviation". Yours disciple Kalki, silent as stone. He is write aparadha for Srila Prabhupada but not able give arguments. You able give arguments?

[raga]

 

You said sakhinam-sangini means a female associate of the sakhis. I wondered about that because when I looked up sangini on the web it was translated to mean associate or companion, it was never translated to identify gender, it was always translated as companion, not female companion. Using google these were the only hits to give a translation for sangini.

 

 

The masculine form would be saGgin. The feminine is saGginI. That's why you see it used in reference to ladies and feminine objects or things.

 

 

 

Why are all versions of that verse that I could find, using the word krpalankara instead of rupalankara?

 

 

Probably they are all taken off the one and same manuscript. However as I pointed out, Visvanatha Chakravarti verifies the reading "rUpAlaGkAra" in his commentary.

 

 

 

The basic meaning of the verse changes from having an esoteric meaning when using krpalankara bhusitam, to having a more basic attire based meaning when using rupalankara bhusitam.

 

 

I wonder if you are familiar with Visvanatha's commentary.

 

sakhInAM zrI lalitA-zrI rUpa maJjaryAdInAM saGginI rUpAm AtmAnaM dhyAyed iti zeSaH | kimbhUtAm? AjJA sevAparAm AjJayA tAsAm anumatyA sevA parAM zrI rAdhA mAdhavayor iti zeSaH | punaH kimbhUtAm? tat tad rUpAlaGkAra bhUSitAM suprasiddha zrI kRSNa manohara rUpeNa zrI rAdhikA nirmAlyAlaGkAreNa bhUSitAM nirmAlya mAlya vasanAbharaNAs tu dAsya ityukteH | punaH kimbhUtAm? vAsanAmayIM cintAmayIm IkSate cintAmayam etam Izvaram ityAdivat ||

 

He explains rUpAlaGkAra as two separate modifiers of bhUSana, as follows: (rUpa-bhUSana) -- (Ornamented by) A most celebrated form that enchants the mind of Sri Krishna. (alaGkAra-bhUSana) - (Ornamented by) Sri Radhika's left-over ornaments, flower-garlands, clothes and jewellery.

 

Would be mighty strange if it were a male form that enchanted the mind of Krishna, dressed up in Radharani's left-over attire, don't you think?

[raga]

 

I'm also a little unclear on some points raised in the paper given by Raga. For example, it is mentioned (quoting from the commentaries by Jiva, Visvanatha, and Mukunda) that the siddha-deha is a mentally conceived form suitable for service. But later it is stated, "The siddha-deha one longs to attain is not a figment of imagination; it is one among the infinite siddha-rupas awaiting in the spiritual realm." So, which is it? Is the form conceived by the guru or is it a form in the spiritual realm seen by the guru?

 

 

A clarification on the word "conceived".

 

First of all, the word "conceive" isn't used in the context of what the guru gives. What's said is: "by dint of the empowerment received from Him, has the insight to reveal..."

 

"Conceived" is used as a translation of "antaz-cintita" and "manaz-cintita", "internally conceived" or "mentally conceived". Here "conceived" is used synonymously with "contemplated", "thought" and other such words. As in:

 

2 a : to take into one's mind ²conceive a prejudice³ b : to form a conception of : imagine (M-W)

 

This is a description of the way the sAdhaka relates to the siddha-rUpa during sAdhana. It is no different from the sAdhaka's remembrance of Krishna -- initially the form of Krishna isn't fully realized, but is rather a mental image of what Krishna might be like, a conception that becomes clarified and closer and closer to the original as the fog of ignorance within the heart dissipates through the power of devotional practices.

[raga]

Shortly on the concept of guru-tattva.

 

 

I am also skeptical of the implicit notion that anyone who offers a "siddha-pranali" is ipso facto a qualified mystic who can do so. As per my understanding, a guru who gives the siddha-pranali must actually know what his disciple's siddha-deha is. How does one know that the guru knows this? If my guru did not know, I would prefer he not make something up simply to satisfy tradition.

 

 

 

And certainly one ought to be reserved. In search of a guru, you won't just look for someone who sits on a lofty seat or who has given mantras to so many. Similarly, you don't search someone whom you hear has given siddha-pranali.

 

Rather you search for someone who is as described in the shastras, fixed in the service of God and free from vices such as lust, greed and so forth. A person who has crossed beyond the material world and has developed a deep attachment for the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna is a befitting guru, and such a guru can certainly act as a medium of revelation.

 

As for the question on why we don't go out of our way to challenge every other person to whom we personally might not send people for initiation and the such: Such people are already established in the position of a guru, and the advice of shastra is to not reject a Vaishnava-guru who may not be fully realized. Therefore it is not befitting to incite people's disloyalty to such gurus and question what the gurus have given them. Each has received in accordance with their eligibility and by the arrangement of Bhagavan, and Bhagavan as the original guru of all will come to see that in the end everyone will come to attain their spiritual necessities.

[raga]

 

Just for fairness, I would point out that several self-proclaimed advocates of true rupanuga siddhanta on gaudiya discussions do not have gurus who are engaged in rupanuga-sadhana, or any gurus at all. I'm just pointing it out since I do not think you discourage discussions with them.

 

 

No, I do not discourage discussions with them. However, should someone ask for my opinion, I would advice those discussing with them to heed attentively and with due caution, since it is only so much theory for them, and while working on theories erring is more common than for those who speak of practical experience.

 

And no, I wouldn't recommend that someone following another path would go and debate with them on siddha-pranali. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kailasa]

Hey Raga it is YOU speak "Prabhupada not rupanuga"?

 

Yes? or Not?

 

It is understable? I am try write very clear for you.

[Guest guest]

Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakur seems clear what the Gaudiya line is all about:

 

nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai

ya yalibhir yuktir apeksaniya

tratrati-daksyad ati-vallabhasya

vande guroh sri caranaravindam

[kailasa]

what about Hamsadutta? Nikunja yuno? What about mood Lord Caitanya? Nikunja yuno?

 

Sambhoga it is not Gaudiya line it is sahajiya line.

[Guest guest]

 

CC Madhya 22.155: "'When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.'

 

So I have to call into question the promotion of a manjari bhava centric ideology as being authentic Gaudiya tattva.

 

 

Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

 

I'm sure you'll agree that the main focus of Gaudiya teaching is gopi-bhava. Funnily enough, it seems that most other religious traditions - including Advaita - agree that gopi-bhava is the pinnacle of devotion. I'm sure you've also read Srila Prabhupada's Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, which contains his summary of the Ramanananda-samvada. Chapters 27-32 deal with that subject.

 

Here is a quote from Swami B.V. Tripurari:

 

"The gopi bhava of our sampradaya is more commonly referred to as manjari bhava and specifically as bhavollasa rati. It extends in spiritual excellence to mahabhava and within that to adhirudha-madan-mahabhava. Devotees who attain this spiritual status identify themselves as handmaidens of Sri Radha and vicariously experience her ecstasy. This is no doubt the furthest reach of Sri Caitanya's own experience and the most prominent sentiment found in the Gaudiya sampradaya."

[Guest guest]

 

Some people have stated that if a devotee is not in manjari bhava or trying to attain to manjari bhava then he is not a Rupanuga.

 

Since our sampradaya is known as the Rupanuga sampradaya, this kind of teaching is coercing everyone into trying to become manjaris.

 

But Rupa Goswami in the above and elswhere does not teach that. A real rupanuga is someone who teaches what Rupa Goswami teaches, not that he or she needs to try and be in his rasa or imitate his rasa.

 

If you tell your students that the best thing they can be is a manjari, then of course they will all try and see themselves and view their relationship with Radha Krishna in that mentality.

 

 

You do not appear to have studied Srila Prabhupada's books very well. This is exactly what he does in his Teachings of Lord Chaitanya as shown:

 

"Although Lord Caitanya accepted this as the highest realization of the Supreme Lord as conjugal lover, He nonetheless requested Ramananda Raya to proceed further. Upon hearing this request, Ramananda Raya remarked that this was the first time that he had been asked to go further than the gopis in an attempt to understand Krsna. There is certainly transcendental intimacy between the damsels of Vraja and Krsna, Ramananda pointed out, but out of all the relationships, the relationship between Radharani and Krsna in conjugal love is the most perfect. No common man can understand the ecstasy of transcendental love between Radharani and Krsna, nor can he understand the transcendental flavor of the transcendental love between Krsna and the gopis. Yet if one tries to follow in the footsteps of the gopis, he may become situated in the highest stage of transcendental love. Thus one who wants to be elevated to the transcendental stage of perfection should follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja as an assistant maidservant of the gopis." - TLC Chap. 32

 

Manjari-bhava, not?

[Guest guest]

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

Note the use of the word "attained". If the spiritual body is within oneself as some here are saying, then where is the question of attainment?

 

"One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Sri Radha and Her assistant gopis. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Sri Radha in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Radha-kunda ... By serving Radha-kunda, one can get an opportunity to become an assistant of Srimati Radharani under the eternal guidance of the gopis." - NOI, Text 11

 

These quotes from Srila Prabhupada support the "authentic Gaudiya tattva" of manjari-bhava, do they not?

[Guest guest]

 

In reply to:

--

The basic meaning of the verse changes from having an esoteric meaning when using krpalankara bhusitam, to having a more basic attire based meaning when using rupalankara bhusitam.

 

---------------------------

 

 

I wonder if you are familiar with Visvanatha's commentary.

 

sakhInAM zrI lalitA-zrI rUpa maJjaryAdInAM saGginI rUpAm AtmAnaM dhyAyed iti zeSaH | kimbhUtAm? AjJA sevAparAm AjJayA tAsAm anumatyA sevA parAM zrI rAdhA mAdhavayor iti zeSaH | punaH kimbhUtAm? tat tad rUpAlaGkAra bhUSitAM suprasiddha zrI kRSNa manohara rUpeNa zrI rAdhikA nirmAlyAlaGkAreNa bhUSitAM nirmAlya mAlya vasanAbharaNAs tu dAsya ityukteH | punaH kimbhUtAm? vAsanAmayIM cintAmayIm IkSate cintAmayam etam Izvaram ityAdivat ||

 

He explains rUpAlaGkAra as two separate modifiers of bhUSana, as follows: (rUpa-bhUSana) -- (Ornamented by) A most celebrated form that enchants the mind of Sri Krishna. (alaGkAra-bhUSana) - (Ornamented by) Sri Radhika's left-over ornaments, flower-garlands, clothes and jewellery.

 

Would be mighty strange if it were a male form that enchanted the mind of Krishna, dressed up in Radharani's left-over attire, don't you think?

 

 

Well my point was that if krpalankara is used then that changes the meaning from wearing some sort of bangle or whatever, into meaning adorned with Radha's mercy, which is an esoteric wording and can have numerous meanings not seen by those who do not have as yet entrance into the esoteric experience and understanding.

 

 

In reply to:

--

 

I am also skeptical of the implicit notion that anyone who offers a "siddha-pranali" is ipso facto a qualified mystic who can do so. As per my understanding, a guru who gives the siddha-pranali must actually know what his disciple's siddha-deha is. How does one know that the guru knows this? If my guru did not know, I would prefer he not make something up simply to satisfy tradition.

 

 

 

--

 

 

And certainly one ought to be reserved. In search of a guru, you won't just look for someone who sits on a lofty seat or who has given mantras to so many. Similarly, you don't search someone whom you hear has given siddha-pranali.

 

Rather you search for someone who is as described in the shastras, fixed in the service of God and free from vices such as lust, greed and so forth. A person who has crossed beyond the material world and has developed a deep attachment for the lotus feet of Radha and Krishna is a befitting guru, and such a guru can certainly act as a medium of revelation.

 

As for the question on why we don't go out of our way to challenge every other person to whom we personally might not send people for initiation and the such: Such people are already established in the position of a guru, and the advice of shastra is to not reject a Vaishnava-guru who may not be fully realized. Therefore it is not befitting to incite people's disloyalty to such gurus and question what the gurus have given them. Each has received in accordance with their eligibility and by the arrangement of Bhagavan, and Bhagavan as the original guru of all will come to see that in the end everyone will come to attain their spiritual necessities.

 

 

There is no need of a guru-pranali. While there may actually be a guru-pranali of some type or another, nowhere in the orignal teachings do we even find the concept mentioned.

 

If the guru-pranali was actually a necessity then it surely would have been at the very least mentioned in the original teachings.

 

Such a supposedly necessary and important aspect of Bhakti would clearly not have overlooked by Sri Caitanya and the 6 Goswamis and Krsnadas Kaviraja if it is actually as important as the exponents of it say it is.

 

As Bhaktivinoda explained in Caitanya Siksamrta, the guru does not have to know what the siddha form of the bhakta is, rather he says:

 

 

It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -däsya, sakhya, vätsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood.

 

If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple.

 

It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhurya rasa.

 

 

Of course this is only appicable to a Guru who is actually directly relating with Radha Krishna on the transcendental plane. He gets instructions directly from God and then instructs the disciple. Anyone who is not receiving directions directly from God, in the same way that you converse with another person, but thinks that by his own perception and knowledge that he can perform the duty of this highest level Guru, that person is blinded by ego and his instructions on raganuga as guru are worthless.

 

As to how will you know if the guru is qualified?

 

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. Krishna sends you a bona fide guru when your devotional sukriti has brought you to the stage of needing such a guru, if you actually need such a guru. As cited earlier, there are three ways for the transcendental knowledge of raganuga to become known: Guru, anuragi vaisnavas, and caitya guru.

 

When it comes to Guru Tattva: Honesty is the best policy

 

From Sri Caitanya Caritamrata Adi.1.46

 

By A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

 

 

acaryam mam vijaniyan

navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta

sarva-deva-mayo guruh

 

One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods.

 

PURPORT

 

This is a verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.17.27) spoken by Lord Krsna when He was questioned by Uddhava regarding the four social and spiritual orders of society. The Lord was specifically instructing how a brahmacari should behave under the care of a spiritual master. A spiritual master is not an enjoyer of facilities offered by his disciples. He is like a parent. Without the attentive service of his parents, a child cannot grow to manhood; similarly, without the care of the spiritual master one cannot rise to the plane of transcendental service.

 

The spiritual master is also called acarya, or a transcendental professor of spiritual science. The Manu-samhita (2.140) explains the duties of an acarya, describing that a bona fide spiritual master accepts charge of disciples, teaches them the Vedic knowledge with all its intricacies, and gives them their second birth.

 

The ceremony performed to initiate a disciple into the study of spiritual science is called upaniti, or the function that brings one nearer to the spiritual master.

 

One who cannot be brought nearer to a spiritual master cannot have a sacred thread, and thus he is indicated to be a sudra. The sacred thread on the body of a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya is a symbol of initiation by the spiritual master; it is worth nothing if worn merely to boast of high parentage.

 

The duty of the spiritual master is to initiate a disciple with the sacred thread ceremony, and after this samskara, or purificatory process, the spiritual master actually begins to teach the disciple about the Vedas.

 

A person born a sudra is not barred from such spiritual initiation, provided he is approved by the spiritual master, who is duly authorized to award a disciple the right to be a brahmana if he finds him perfectly qualified. In the Vayu Purana an acarya is defined as one who knows the import of all Vedic literature, explains the purpose of the Vedas, abides by their rules and regulations, and teaches his disciples to act in the same way.

 

Only out of His immense compassion does the Personality of Godhead reveal Himself as the spiritual master. Therefore in the dealings of an acarya there are no activities but those of transcendental loving service to the Lord. He is the Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead. It is worthwhile to take shelter of such a steady devotee, who is called asraya-vigraha, or the manifestation or form of the Lord of whom one must take shelter.

 

If one poses himself as an acarya but does not have an attitude of servitorship to the Lord, he must be considered an offender, and this offensive attitude disqualifies him from being an acarya. The bona fide spiritual master always engages in unalloyed devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By this test he is known to be a direct manifestation of the Lord and a genuine representative of Sri Nityananda Prabhu.

 

Such a spiritual master is known as acaryadeva. Influenced by an envious temperament and dissatisfied because of an attitude of sense gratification, mundaners criticize a real acarya. In fact, however, a bona fide acarya is nondifferent from the Personality of Godhead, and therefore to envy such an acarya is to envy the Personality of Godhead Himself. This will produce an effect subversive of transcendental realization.

 

As mentioned previously, a disciple should always respect the spiritual master as a manifestation of Sri Krsna, but at the same time one should always remember that a spiritual master is never authorized to imitate the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. False spiritual masters pose themselves as identical with Sri Krsna in every respect to exploit the sentiments of their disciples, but such impersonalists can only mislead their disciples, for their ultimate aim is to become one with the Lord. This is against the principles of the devotional cult.

 

The real Vedic philosophy is acintya-bhedabheda-tattva, which establishes everything to be simultaneously one with and different from the Personality of Godhead. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami confirms that this is the real position of a bona fide spiritual master and says that one should always think of the spiritual master in terms of his intimate relationship with Mukunda (Sri Krsna).

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213), has clearly explained that a pure devotee's observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as being one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects.

 

Following in the footsteps of Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami and Srila Jiva Gosvami, later acaryas like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura have confirmed the same truths. In his prayers to the spiritual master, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord.

 

Gaudiya Vaisnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu.

 

 

 

Here we are given an explanation of what the bona fide guru is all about. But at the same time we should also understand that sometimes people can take the role of a guru or spiritual master or acarya, and not necessarily be all those things described above. There are gradations of spiritual masters, some are like what is described above, some are not.

 

Here is more from A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada on this concept.

 

 

 

The first-class devotee does not at all see anyone who is not in the service of the Lord, but the second-class devotee makes distinctions between devotees and nondevotees. The second-class devotees are therefore meant for preaching work, they must loudly preach the glories of the Lord. The second-class devotee accepts disciples from the section of third-class devotees or nondevotees. Sometimes the first-class devotee also comes down to the category of the second-class devotee for preaching work. (Srimad Bhagavatam 2:3:21 purport.)

 

This is a general principle. However, A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as 'guru' and 'acharya' by strictly following the disciplic succession. (Lecture 26th April, 1968. New York)

 

 

 

So here he writes about the second-class or madhyama adhikari vaisnava. He states that these vaisnavas who have not yet attained to the level of self realization, who are not liberated, that they can perform the function of guru and accept disciples.

 

But we should understand that there is a difference between a liberated first-class or uttama adhikari vaisnava guru, and those who are less then that. In the first quote from Sri Caitanya Caritamrta we hear about the position of the guru as being considered to be an incarnation of Krishna.

 

The guru is not Krishna Himself, but a person who is manifesting the instructions of Krishna because that person is a "confidential servant". That means the uttama guru is in direct communion and communication with Krishna. That is why that person is considered to be an uttama or highest level or liberated person. He channels Krishna directly because he is directly dealing with Krishna one on one.

 

Jiva Goswami writes in his Bhakti Sandarbha 237

 

 

 

From Sri Narada in the Seventh Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam

 

"One must conquer the modes of passion and ignorance by developing the mode of goodness, and then one must become detach from the mode of goodness by promoting oneself to the platform of suddha-sattva. all this can be automatically done if one engages in the service of the spiritual master with faith and devotion. In this way one can conquer the influence of the modes of nature."

 

In the Vamana-kalpa, Lord Brahma explains:

 

"One's mantra is identical with his spiritual master. One's spiritual master is identical with Lord Hari. When the spiritual master is pleased, then Lord Hari is pleased."

 

It is also said:

 

"When Lord Hari is angry, one's spiritual master can protect him. When one's spiritual master is angry, no one can give protection. Therefore with all efforts one should strive to please his spiritual master."

 

Therefore one should always serve his spiritual master. In another place in the scriptures, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself declares:

 

"First one should worship his spiritual master, and then afterward one should worship Me. One who does this attains perfection. One who does not finds that all his efforts are in vain."

 

In the Narada-pancaratra it is said:

 

"With body, mind and words, one should worship his Vaisnava spiritual master, who is like Lord Visnu, and who teaches the science of Lord Visnu. One who knows the true meaning of the scriptures is a Vaisnava."

 

"One who teaches the true meaning of the verses in the scriptures is always to be worshipped. What more need be said? He is a manifestation of Lord Visnu Himself."

 

In the Padma Purana, Devadyuti prays:

 

"For me devotion to my spiritual master it is more important than devotion to Lord Hari. If I am devoted to my spiritual master, then Lord Hari will personally reveal Himself to me."

 

In such a situation there is no need even to worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead separate from the worship of one's spiritual master. This is explained in the Agama-sastra, where, in the course of describing the results of purascarana, it is said:

 

"As an alchemist's touch turns copper into gold, so the spiritual master's touch makes his disciple transcendental like Lord Visnu Himself."

 

This is also explained in Srimad Bhagavatam (10.80.34), where Lord Krsna declares:

 

"I, the Soul of all beings, cannot be satisfied as much by ritual worship, by generating progeny, by observing penances or by self-control, as I am by faithful service rendered to one's spiritual master."

 

Srila Sridhara Svami comments:

 

"This verse explains that no one is more to be worshipped than the spiritual master who gives transcendental knowledge. Therefore no duty is more important than the worship of him.

 

In this verse the word "ijya" means "the ritual duties of a householder". "Prajatih" means "the second birth by accepting the sacred thread". That word describes the duties of a brahmacari. "Tapasa" describes the duties of a vanaprastha" and "upasamena" describes the duties of a sannyasi". "Aham" means "I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead".

 

The Lord then declares:

 

"I, the Soul of all beings, cannot be satisfied by these things in the same way as I am by faithful service rendered to one's spiritual master."

 

 

 

So much respect, faith, and importance is the position of the guru, but we should be very clear in understanding what is being described is the uttama guru, not the madhyama or second-class vaisnava guru. If we think that just anyone who has taken the position of guru is exactly what is being described in the above, then we mistakingly will think a person who is not a confidential servant of Krishna, who is not in direct communion and communication with Krishna, is the type of guru Jiva Goswami and Sri Krishna are describing.

 

That will be a big mistake. As we have seen so many vaisnavas have accepted madhyama or second-class vaisnavas as guru all the while thinking that the sastric descriptions of an uttama or first-class vaisnava applies to them. When those madhyama vaisnavas let them down, it is devastating to the disciples. They lose faith in the society which they feel has cheated them by promoting a person as a guru, as a representative of Krishna, as a confidant of Krishna.

 

Potential disciples need to be told by madhyama vaisnavas who are taking disciples that they are not uttama vaisnavas. That they are not liberated souls in direct communion and communication with God. The abilities and powers of an uttama guru is what sastra generally refers to. To let potential disciples remain unaware of the distinction between a liberated guru on the highest level of intimacy with God, and a madhyama vaisnava who is not that, then that is going to cause problems.

 

Some people may say: "Well there is no difference between an initiating spiritual master and an instructing spiritual master. Here is what Prabhupada wrote on this concept"

 

 

 

siksa-guruke ta' jani krsnera svarupa

 

antaryami, bhakta-srestha, -- ei dui rupa

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krsna. Lord Krsna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.

 

PURPORT

 

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami states that the instructing spiritual master is a bona fide representative of Sri Krsna. Sri Krsna Himself teaches us as the instructing spiritual master from within and without. From within He teaches as Paramatma, our constant companion, and from without He teaches from the Bhagavad-gita as the instructing spiritual master.

 

There are two kinds of instructing spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions.

 

Thus the instructions in the science of devotion are differentiated in terms of the objective and subjective ways of understanding. The acarya in the true sense of the term, who is authorized to deliver Krsna, enriches the disciple with full spiritual knowledge and thus awakens him to the activities of devotional service.

 

When by learning from the self-realized spiritual master one actually engages himself in the service of Lord Visnu, functional devotional service begins.

 

The procedures of this devotional service are known as abhidheya, or actions one is dutybound to perform. Our only shelter is the Supreme Lord, and one who teaches how to approach Krsna is the functioning form of the Personality of Godhead.

 

There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.

 

 

 

While it is true that there is no difference between the initiating or diksa guru, and the instructing or siksa guru, and that they are both considered to be manifestations of Krishna, we should not make the mistake in thinking that this means that all gurus are on the same level.

 

There are siksa (instructing) gurus who are uttama vaisnavas, and there are siksa gurus who are madhyama or kanistha (neophyte) vaisnavas.

 

There are diksa (initiating) gurus who are uttama vaisnavas, and there are diksa gurus who are madhyama or kanistha vaisnavas.

 

The points Sri Krishna and Srila Prabhupada are making is that a first class vaisnava, a liberated soul, whether he is diksa or siksa guru, giving initiation or instruction, there is no difference between them. They are both representing directly the potency of Sri Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote in the above:

 

"There are two kinds of instructing (siksa) spiritual masters. One is the liberated person fully absorbed in meditation in devotional service, and the other is he who invokes the disciple's spiritual consciousness by means of relevant instructions."

 

Just like earlier he mentions two types of diksa gurus, the liberated uttama diksa guru and the madhyama second-class diksa guru, here he mentions the two types of siksa guru in the same way.

 

So to conclude, a person who is acting as a guru needs to let it be known to potential disciples if he is not on the uttama level. If he does not do so, and allows or encourages people to think that he actually is a confidant of God, in direct communion with God, then that is certainly going to bring some karmic effect. The role of a guru is very special. No one should use that role to gain service from others. By doing so there will be some karmic effect.

 

 

From A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.13.10

 

 

My Lord, devotees like your good self are verily holy places personified. Because you carry the Personality of Godhead within your heart, you turn all places into places of pilgrimage.

 

PURPORT

 

The Personality of Godhead is omnipresent by His diverse potencies everywhere, just as the power of electricity is distributed everywhere within space. Similarly, the Lord's omnipresence is perceived and manifested by His unalloyed devotees like Vidura, just as electricity is manifested in an electric bulb.

 

A pure devotee like Vidura always feels the presence of the Lord everywhere. He sees everything in the potency of the Lord and the Lord in everything.

 

The holy places all over the earth are meant for purifying the polluted consciousness of the human being by an atmosphere surcharged with the presence of the Lord's unalloyed devotees. If anyone visits a holy place, he must search out the pure devotees residing in such holy places, take lessons from them, try to apply such instructions in practical life and thus gradually prepare oneself for the ultimate salvation, going back to Godhead.

 

To go to some holy place of pilgrimage does not mean only to take a bath in the Ganges or Yamuna or to visit the temples situated in those places. One should also find representatives of Vidura who have no desire in life save and except to serve the Personality of Godhead.

 

The Personality of Godhead is always with such pure devotees because of their unalloyed service, which is without any tinge of fruitive action or utopian speculation. They are in the actual service of the Lord, specifically by the process of hearing and chanting.

 

The pure devotees hear from the authorities and chant, sing and write of the glories of the Lord. Mahamuni Vyasadeva heard from Narada, and then he chanted in writing; Sukadeva Gosvami studied from his father, and he described it to Pariksit; that is the way of Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

So by their actions the pure devotees of the Lord can render any place into a place of pilgrimage, and the holy places are worth the name only on their account.

 

Such pure devotees are able to rectify the polluted atmosphere of any place, and what to speak of a holy place rendered unholy by the questionable actions of interested persons who try to adopt a professional life at the cost of the reputation of a holy place.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

There is no need of a guru-pranali.

 

 

Would you mind explaining to us all the meaning of the terms guru-pranali and parampara?

 

 

As Bhaktivinoda explained in Caitanya Siksamrta, the guru does not have to know what the siddha form of the bhakta is,

 

 

You really should study Bhaktivinoda more instead of just quoting from one book. There are tons of things that Bhaktivinoda had to say, considering that he was a practitioner of the siddha-pranali system himself.

 

The rest of your verbose post had nothing to do with siddha-pranali directly, so I have not bothered responding to it.

[Guest guest]

 

Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

 

I'm sure you'll agree that the main focus of Gaudiya teaching is gopi-bhava. Funnily enough, it seems that most other religious traditions - including Advaita - agree that gopi-bhava is the pinnacle of devotion. I'm sure you've also read Srila Prabhupada's Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, which contains his summary of the Ramanananda-samvada. Chapters 27-32 deal with that subject.

 

Here is a quote from Swami B.V. Tripurari:

 

"The gopi bhava of our sampradaya is more commonly referred to as manjari bhava and specifically as bhavollasa rati. It extends in spiritual excellence to mahabhava and within that to adhirudha-madan-mahabhava. Devotees who attain this spiritual status identify themselves as handmaidens of Sri Radha and vicariously experience her ecstasy. This is no doubt the furthest reach of Sri Caitanya's own experience and the most prominent sentiment found in the Gaudiya sampradaya."

 

 

If you want to take verses here and there and concoct your own version of Gaudiya siddhanta, fine. If we take all of the teachings on this topic as a whole, instead of just focusing on individual statements taken out of the holistic context they are part of, good luck with that.

 

 

You do not appear to have studied Srila Prabhupada's books very well. This is exactly what he does in his Teachings of Lord Chaitanya as shown:

 

"Although Lord Caitanya accepted this as the highest realization of the Supreme Lord as conjugal lover, He nonetheless requested Ramananda Raya to proceed further. Upon hearing this request, Ramananda Raya remarked that this was the first time that he had been asked to go further than the gopis in an attempt to understand Krsna. There is certainly transcendental intimacy between the damsels of Vraja and Krsna, Ramananda pointed out, but out of all the relationships, the relationship between Radharani and Krsna in conjugal love is the most perfect. No common man can understand the ecstasy of transcendental love between Radharani and Krsna, nor can he understand the transcendental flavor of the transcendental love between Krsna and the gopis. Yet if one tries to follow in the footsteps of the gopis, he may become situated in the highest stage of transcendental love. Thus one who wants to be elevated to the transcendental stage of perfection should follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja as an assistant maidservant of the gopis." - TLC Chap. 32

 

 

 

Again if you take single statements out of the tradition and attempt to concoct your own version of Gaudiya siddhanta without reference to all the teachings on this topic, again, good luck with that.

 

Clearly when we study all of the teachings , we are told repeatedly that a devotee will naurally be attracted to a particular bhava in Vraja, not necessarily the gopis. Srila Prabhupada said this on the topic as well:

 

 

by A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura says that a devotee is attracted by the service of the inhabitants of Vrndavana -- namely the cowherd men, Maharaja Nanda, mother Yasoda, Radharani, the gopis and the cows and calves. An advanced devotee is attracted by the service rendered by an eternal servitor of the Lord. This attraction is called spontaneous attraction. Technically it is called svarupa-upalabdhi. This stage is not achieved in the beginning. In the beginning one has to render service strictly according to the regulative principles set forth by the revealed scriptures and the spiritual master. By continuously rendering service through the process of vaidhi bhakti, one's natural inclination is gradually awakened. That is called spontaneous attraction, or raganuga bhakti.

`

 

 

And this:

 

 

No one, while remaining on the material platform, should discuss these different descriptions of bhava and anubhava by quoting different statements of transcendental literatures. Such manifestations are displays of the transcendental pleasure potency of the Lord. One should simply try to understand that on the spiritual platform there are many varieties of reciprocal love. Such loving exchanges should never be considered to be material. In the Mahabharata, Udyama-parva, it is warned that things which are inconceivable should not be subjected to arguments. Actually, the transactions of the spiritual world are inconceivable to us in our present state of life. Great liberated souls like Rupa Gosvami and others have tried to give us some hints of transcendental activities in the spiritual world, but on the whole these transactions will remain inconceivable to us at the present moment. Understanding the exchanges of transcendental loving service with Krsna is possible only when one is actually in touch with the pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord.

 

 

So you can do as you like, follow whomever you like. I am simply pointing out that the traditional teachings are what they are, you can read them and learn from them, or you can do as you like. Once you have attained to the pre-requisite stage then your natural attraction will become manifest. If you want to teach that everyone should attempt to be manjaris, or that the gaudiya "tradition" teaches that, go back and read the verses I quoted from Sri Caitanya, Sri Rupa and others. Their teachings are the "traditional" teachings.

[kailasa]

Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

 

In Nectar Devotion. You read? No? /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

I'm sure you'll agree that the main focus of Gaudiya teaching is gopi-bhava.

 

In what mood?

 

"The gopi bhava of our sampradaya is more commonly referred to as manjari bhava and specifically as bhavollasa rati. It extends in spiritual excellence to mahabhava and within that to adhirudha-madan-mahabhava. Devotees who attain this spiritual status identify themselves as handmaidens of Sri Radha and vicariously experience her ecstasy. This is no doubt the furthest reach of Sri Caitanya's own experience and the most prominent sentiment found in the Gaudiya sampradaya."

 

Madhavendara Puri founder sampradaya kalpa vriksa. They stady some texts Rupa Gosvami's do not understand full Gaudiya. This is Krisna lila it is standart Krisna lila. Lord Caitanya and devotees Lord Caitanya in another mood, mood Gaura lila.

 

Lord Caitanya take mood Srimati Radharani most exalted and distribute This mood. They do not understand Lord Caitanya and Gaudiya Vaisnavism. All gopis, manjaris, gopas, all go in Gaura lila. In Gaura lila ALL devotees ALL rasas who follow Lord Caitanya lifting in MOST supreme mood.

 

Babjis and some GM do not understand this. Krisna lila it is some step in spiritual life. Really not Krisna lila supreme target. Anyway sambhoga not supreme mood. It is speak Rupa Gosvami, SBT and Srila Prabhupada. They not understand what means "rupanuga".

[Guest guest]

 

There is no need of a guru-pranali.

 

 

--

 

 

Would you mind explaining to us all the meaning of the terms guru-pranali and parampara?

 

 

If the teachings of siddha-pranali or guru-pranali are as important as the promoters say they are, why are they not mentioned in the original teachings? I didn't say that the siddha-pranali or guru-pranali is bogus, just that it is not necessary, if it was it would have been mentioned in the original teachings.

 

A parampara is teachings coming through a succession of teachers.

 

The guru-pranali concept being promoted in this thread is about the revealing of manjari swarups and giving teachings on that, the guru's manjari swarupa, the previous guru's manjari swarupa, and the disciples manjari swarupa.

 

Look, you're not going to change my mind on these things no matter what you write. As Srila Prabhupada wrote in my previous post these topics should not be discussed by people and they should defintely not be taught by people who have no direct experience of that plane of consciousness, it is beyond their ability to understand, it is revealed knowledge through experience. From Prabhupada:

 

 

Great liberated souls like Rupa Gosvami and others have tried to give us some hints of transcendental activities in the spiritual world, but on the whole these transactions will remain inconceivable to us at the present moment. Understanding the exchanges of transcendental loving service with Krsna is possible only when one is actually in touch with the pleasure potency of the Supreme Lord.

 

 

What he is saying is that this knowledge is esoteric knowledge, the written words only point you in a direction. It is not possible for someone to fully understand what these topics are really about until you receive the mercy of Krishna, Guru, or anuragi vaisnavas. By their mercy you can be elevated to direct experience, and then, and only then ,will these topics be understandable to you in full.

 

Until then remain in the attitude of the student, if we take the attitude of the master prematurely, then we stop our seeking for the higher truth, for that which is beyond our experience.

[kailasa]

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

Note the use of the word "attained". If the spiritual body is within oneself as some here are saying, then where is the question of attainment?

 

"One should bathe there regularly and give up all material conceptions, taking shelter of Sri Radha and Her assistant gopis. If one is thus constantly engaged during his lifetime, after giving up the body he will return back to Godhead to serve Sri Radha in the same way as he contemplated during his life on the banks of Radha-kunda ... By serving Radha-kunda, one can get an opportunity to become an assistant of Srimati Radharani under the eternal guidance of the gopis." - NOI, Text 11

 

The eternal vraja-vasis like Svarupa Damodara did not even come to Vrndavana dhama. Sri Pundarika Vidyanidhi, Haridasa Thakura, Srivasa Pandita, Sivananda Sena, Sri Ramananda Raya, Sri Sikhi Mahiti, Madhavi devi, Sri Gadahara Pandita Gosvami never visited Vrndavana dhama.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

one must follow the instructions known as Upadesamrita, which have been given by Srila Rupa Gosvami. Srila Rupa Gosvami has given many other books, such as Bhakti-rasamrita sindhu, Vidagdha-madhava and Lalita-madhava, but Upadesamrita constitutes the first instructions for neophyte devotees.

 

Prabhupda: Very good. These are for higher devotees, not for the neophytes. For neophytes we have translated Bhakti-rasamrita sindhu, Nectar of Devotion. You have seen our books?

 

=======================================

 

There are two kinds of transcendental feelings for those engaged in the worship of the Lord. One is called sambhoga, and the other is called viraha. According to authorities in the disciplic line, viraha worship is more palatable than sambhoga worship. Sambhoga takes place in direct touch, whereas viraha takes place without such direct contact. Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu taught us to accept viraha worship. In the present state of affairs we cannot make any direct touch with the Personality of Godhead. But if we practice the viraha mode of worship we can transcendentally realize the presence of the Lord more lovingly than in His presence.

 

The gopis provide the highest example of such unalloyed love of Godhead, and Lord Caitanya at the ULTIMATE stage of realization displayed the viraha worship in the mood of the gopis.

[kailasa]

Without serving Krsna according to the vidhi-marga regulative principles of the pancaratrika-vidhi, unscrupulous persons want to jump immediately to the raga-marga principles. Such persons are called sahajiya. There are also demons who enjoy depicting Krsna and His pastimes with the gopis, taking advantage of Krsna by their licentious character. These demons who print books and write lyrics on the raga-marga principles are surely on the way to hell. Unfortunately, they lead others down with them. Devotees in Krsna consciousness should be very careful to avoid such demons. One should strictly follow the vidhi-marga regulative principles in the worship of Laksmi-Narayana, although the Lord is present in the temple as Radha-Krsna. Radha-Krsna includes Laksmi-Narayana;

therefore when one worships the Lord according to the regulative principles, the Lord accepts the service in the role of Laksmi-Narayana. In The Nectar of Devotion full instructions are given about the vidhi-marga worship of Radha-Krsna, or Laksmi-Narayana.

 

Almost all the conditioned souls within the material world are envious. Jealous people generally turn against one who automatically attains some reputation. This is natural for jealous people. Consequently, when a devotee is fit to receive worldly reputation, he is envied by many people. This is quite natural. When a person, out of humility, does not desire fame, people generally think him quite humble and consequently give him all kinds of fame. Actually a Vaisnava does not hanker after fame or a great reputation.

Madhavendra Puri, the king of Vaisnavas, bore his reputation, but he wanted to keep himself outside of the vision of the general populace. He wanted to cover his real identity as a great devotee of the Lord, but when people saw him overwhelmed in the ecstasy of love of Godhead, they naturally gave credit to him. Actually a first-class reputation is due Madhavendra Puri because he was a most

confidential devotee of the Lord. Sometimes a sahajiya presents himself as being void of desires for reputation (pratistha) in order to become famous as a humble man. Such people cannot actually attain the platform of celebrated Vaisnavas.

 

In this connection, we should be careful about the so-called siddha-pranali. The siddha-pranali process is followed by a class of men who are not very authorized and who have manufactured their own way of devotional service. They imagine that they have become associates of the Lord simply by thinking of themselves like that. This external behavior is not at all according to the regulative principles. The so-called siddha-pranali process is followed by the prakrta-sahajiya, a pseudosect of so-called Vaisnavas. In the opinion of Rupa Gosvami, such activities are simply disturbances to the standard way of devotional service.

[muralidhar_das]

quote:

<blockquote>

"Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in this connection that Sri Radha-kunda is the most select place for those interested in advancing their devotional service in the wake of the lady friends (sakhis) and confidential serving maids (manjaris) of Srimati Radharani. Living entities who are eager to return home to the transcendental kingdom of God, Goloka Vrndavana, by means of attaining their spiritual bodies (siddha-deha) should live at Radha-kunda, take shelter of the confidential serving maids of Sri Radha and under their direction engage constantly in Her service. This is the most exalted method for those engaged in devotional service under the protection of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu."

 

Note the use of the word "attained". If the spiritual body is within oneself as some here are saying, then where is the question of attainment?

</blockquote>

 

 

Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary.

 

<blockquote> <font color="blue">

Vedanta Sütra 4.4.1

sampadyävirbhävaù svena-çabdät

sampadya—of he who has attained; ävirbhävaù—manifestation; svena—svena; çabdät—by the word.

 

Because of the word "svena" it is the manifestation of he who has gone.

Commentary by Çréla Baladeva Vidyäbhüñaëa

The individual soul who, by means of devotional service accompanied with knowledge and renunciation, attains the effulgent Supreme, becomes free from the bondage of karma and attains a body endowed with eight virtues. This body is said to be the soul's original form. Why is that? The sütra explains, "svena-çabdät" (because of the word "svena"). The word "svena" here means, "in his own original form". For this reason it cannot be said that this passage means, "the soul arrives there and then accepts a form which is an external imposition". In that way it is proved that the form here is the original form of the soul. This is not contradicted by the use of the word "niñpadyate" in the verse of Chändogya Upaniñad, for that word is also used to mean, "is manifested". An example of that usage is seen in the following words found elsewhere the Çruti-çästra:

idam ekaà su-niñpannam

"He is manifested."

 

Also, it is not that the manifestation of the soul's original form cannot be a goal of human endeavour, because it already exists. This is so because even though the soul's original form exists it is not openly manifested. Therefore it is not useless to say that the soul may endeavour to make manifest the original form of the soul. </font color>

</blockquote>

 

You can download a 170kb document containing this entire section of Baladev's commentary to Vedanta here:

 

http://www.mandala.com.au/books/vedanta.RTF

[muralidhar_das]

quote:

<blockquote>

Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

</blockquote>

 

The book "Brhadbhagavatamrtam" by Srila Sanatan Goswami is a detailed study of the practicing life and of a devotee in sakhya-bhava. In fact this book gives an extremely detailed description of the evolution of a soul through the various stages of devotion (sadhu-sangha, sraddha, bhajan-kriya, anartha-nivritti, nistha, ruci, asakti, bhava, prema). And when the sadhaka attains prema, it is in sakhya-bhava.