Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

muralidhar_das · April 14, 2005

quote:

Would you mind explaining to us all the meaning of the terms guru-pranali and parampara?

</blockquote>

Guru pranali means Guru-parampara.

Siddha Pranali is another matter. It is the listing of Gurus in a parampara according to their siddha-identities, as manjaris, and it is always a list of diksa-gurus and their disciples.

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati received diksa mantra from Srila Gaurkishore das Babaji.

Who was the diksa-guru of Srila Gaurkishore das Babaji?

Someone who was in the family line of Sri Advaita Acharya, I have heard. But I don't even know his name - and it doesn't matter to me or my Guru (Srila Sridhar Maharaj), either.

The line of Siksa-Gurus is the real line of our Parampara. Gaurkishore das babaji received his babaji status from Bhagavat das Babaji, who received his babaji status and siksa from Jagannatha das Babaji, who received siksa from... devotees in the Rupanuga Guru-varga.

.

muralidhar_das · April 14, 2005

quote from Kailasa:

where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

In Nectar Devotion. You read? No?

</blockquote>

Correct.

There is elaborate information in Bhaktirasamrtasindu (nectar of devotion) about dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti.

April 14, 2005

quote:

Fair enough that you quoted CC. However, where in "authentic Gaudiya tattva" have you found teachings on dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti?

---------------------------

The book "Brhadbhagavatamrtam" by Srila Sanatan Goswami is a detailed study of the practicing life and of a devotee in sakhya-bhava. In fact this book gives an extremely detailed description of the evolution of a soul through the various stages of devotion (sadhu-sangha, sraddha, bhajan-kriya, anartha-nivritti, nistha, ruci, asakti, bhava, prema). And when the sadhaka attains prema, it is in sakhya-bhava.

Good point. What is also interesting about Brhad Bhagavatamrtam is that it is considered to be the condensed knowledge of the Srimad Bhagavatam, which is of course the basis for Gaudiya tattva.

The story of Gopa Kumar's journey is an allegorical story. Gopa Kumar represents the jiva on the journey to the ultimate destination from the beginning stage. He goes from one loka to the next progressively. He goes from Earth to the higher planets like satyaloka, and then enters Vaikuntha. In every loka he stays awahile and tries to fit in. But in each loka he feels unfulfilled, and then Narada takes him onto the next higher loka.

When he reaches Vaikuntha he stays awhile with Lord Narayana and Laksmi Devi and the residents of Vaikuntha Dhama. But he feels unfulfilled and Narada takes him onward. Eventually he enters Krishna lila and is associating with Krishna, Balarama and the residents of Dwaraka and then Mathura.

Even though he is directly enagaged in lila directly with Krishna and His associates, still he fills unfulfilled.

Then Narada takes him to Vrndavana. As he enters Vraja he walks around and eventually encounters Krishna. Krishna spots him and in a flash runs up to him and embraces Gopa Kumar and then feints in ecastacy.

This causes a commontion as the gopis and and others hurry to Krishna and fear He has been harmed, perhaps by a demon. Balarama checks Krishna and then announces that Krishna has feinted in ecstacy because he has just reunited with His old beloved friend. From that point on Gopa Kumar has finally found his hearts contentment. At one point Krishna even tosses His flute to Gopa Kumar.

Later another jiva enters into Vraja lila as a gopa as well, a disciple of Gopa Kumar.

So Brhad Bhagavatamrtam is presenting the condensed knowledge of the Bhagavata, and we find two jivas entering Vraja as gopas, not manjaris. So to say that the Gaudiya tradition is really about manjari bhava, according to Sanatana Goswami, it is not.

raga · April 14, 2005

Shiva:

Look, you're not going to change my mind on these things no matter what you write.

And this is precisely the reason why I am not responding to a good many of the things you keep educating others about. If you do not entertain even a theoretical possibility that there might be a vision more correct than yours, what's the point in discussing.

kRpAlaGkAra and rUpAlaGkAra - I already pointed out twice that the second is what Visvanath Chakravarti supports as the correct reading. If you want to disagree with him in favor of what you find the more esoteric alternative (without understanding the esoterica of Radharani's left-over ornaments), please be my guest.

raga · April 14, 2005

Muralidhar:

Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary.

Would you happen to have the Sanskrit for this section of the commentary at your disposal? Unfortunately I also have just a translation here. Is that Kusakratha's you're presenting?

I'd like to get to the bottom of this. There is also a body of evidence from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu I came across in my recent studies that hasn't been brought up or addressed in this debate. (Expect to see more on that in a week or so at you-know-where.)

muralidhar_das · April 14, 2005

I don't have the Sanskrit at my disposal today. It is on a CD but I am not in a position to access that data right now.

The translation I have of Govinda Bhasya was given to me by Sripad Visnu Swami, Sripad Narasingha Maharaj's associate.

I haven't visited you-know-where for some time now. I have decided not to visit there anymore since I don't want to disturb your sangha, or be disturbed by the things some people there say. If you have anything interesting in regard to this topic you can email me at my email address.

Then again, can you please advise me where in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu the interesting things that you have found are, and I will take a look in the translations I have with me. We have Srila Sridhar Maharaj's bengali edition here in my house, and I have a native Bengli speaker living with me now. Indeed, his family are brahmins and they were members of the Syamananda Parivar for a couple of hundred years, before they came into the sampradaya of our Srila Saraswati Thakur Prabhupada. My friend studied Sanskrit at a school in Nabadwip for five years before he came here. He is a big help to me in my spiritual life.

I have looked into this topic in depth and other commentators also present the same conclusions as Baladeva Vidyabhusana.

See http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/bs_4/bs_4-4-01.html for Swami Sivananda's translation:

quote:

The Purvapakshin holds that the Jiva or the individual soul which has freed itself from identification with the three bodies attains emancipation after realising Brahman. Release also is a fruit like other fruits, e.g., Svarga or heaven. Manifestation means as much as origination. Liberation was not a pre-existent thing. It is something that is newly acquired like heaven, as the word 'reaches' in the text clearly indicates. Therefore emancipation is something new that is acquired by the individual soul. If the manifestation took place only through the self's own nature, it would already appear in the self's former states, because a thing's own nature is never absent in it.

The present Sutra refutes this view and says that the word 'own' indicates that emancipation was a pre-existent thing. The individual soul manifests its own, essential divine nature which was so long covered by ignorance (Avidya). This is his attainment of the final beatitude or release. It is certainly nothing that is newly acquired.

</blockquote>

I have also studied Ramanuja's commentary, which I have in a few different translations. Here is an online translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe48/sbe48552.htm

The Purvapakshin..

conclude(s) that on approaching the highest light the soul connects itself with a new form only then brought about. On this view the term 'accomplishes itself' is taken in its direct sense, and the expression 'in its own shape' also is suitable in so far as the soul accomplishes itself in a nature specially belonging to it and characterised by absolute bliss.

--This view the Sûtra rejects. That special condition into which the soul passes on having, on the path of the Gods, approached the highest light is a manifestation of its own true nature, not an origination of a new character. For this is proved--by the specification implied in the term 'own,' in the phrase 'in its own nature.' If the soul assumed a new body, this specification would be without meaning; for, even without that, it would be clear that the new body belongs to the soul.

</blockquote>

The above translation is a not good, but it is clear enough in saying that the soul doesn't get a new body when he is liberated. Rather (s)he manifests the eternal form that lay dormant when (s)he was in illusion.

muralidhar_das · April 14, 2005

Sri Chaitanyadeva said:

nitya-siddha krsna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravan adi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

"Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens."

- Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.107

krsna · April 14, 2005

Sri Guru Pranali — Siddha Pranali

by Srila B P Puri Gosvami

A conversation between Srila Bhakti Pramoda Puri Gosvami Maharaja and a sannyasa disciple, held on Durga Puja, Sept. 28, 1998, Gopinatha Gaudiya Matha, Cakra Tirtha, Jagannatha Puri.

Gurudeva: Gopinatha (Gopinatha Dasa Brahmacari)! Please give me my Sabda-sara. And my copy of Gaudiya-kantha-hara, and Sriman Mahaprabhur Siksa. Look at me, I am completely bedridden. Well at least I can sit up... so I am only half-bedridden. Well, half-bedridden or completely bedridden. I can stretch my legs a little, that's all. That's how my time goes by...

Devotee: Your posture may be unusual, but it is still very beautiful, in a different sort of way.

Gurudeva: (laughs) Sit down, baba. Let's talk. Om Visnu, om Visnu, om Visnu... (pause) I am looking into the meaning of the word sampradayika. Someone was saying that Guru-pranali...

Devotee: siddha-pranali...

Gurudeva: They were saying that there are many Babajis in Vrndavana who criticize us in various ways. They do not accept our disciplic line. I wanted to say something about that.

Devotee: Please go on, Maharaja.

Gurudeva: My position is the following:

sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah

atah kalau bhavisyanti catvarah sampradayinah

sri-brahma-rudra-sanaka vaisnavah ksiti-pavanah

catvaras te kalau bhavya hy utkale purusottamat

'The mantra that is not received in disciplic succession does not produce results. Therefore in the Age of Kali there are four such disciplic successions. They are the Sri, Brahma, Rudra and Sanaka sampradayas. In the Age of Kali, these four disciplic lines will appear out of Purusottama in Orissa.' (Padma Purana quoted in Prameya-ratnavali)

All of the disciplic successions had their beginnings here in Purusottama-dham, or Puri. That is why it is said, hy-utkale purusottamat. Is it not so? So there are four lines of disciplic succession. Ramanujam srih svicakre—the goddess Laksmi chose Ramanujacarya as her representative. That is the Sri sampradaya. Madhvacaryam caturmukhah—Brahma selected Madhvacarya as the founder of his line. Sri-visnu-svaminam rudro—Rudra, who is considered the foremost of Vaisnavas (vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh), accepted Visnuswami as the founder of his line, while nimbadityam catuhsanah—the four Kumaras chose Nimbarka as their representative. Nimbarka's commentary on the Vedanta is called Parijata-bhasya. Ramanuja of course wrote the Sri-bhasya. Madhvacharya's exegesis is called the Anubhasya, or sometimes the Sutra-bhasya or Anubhasya. Visnusvami wrote the Sarvajna-sukti.

Now what is the meaning of the word 'sampradaya'? A sampradaya is the instruction received through a disciplic succession of legitimate teachers. Find the definition in the Sabda-sara,1 will you? This copy of Sabda-sara is very old; it used to belong to my father.

Devotee: I have found it, Guru Maharaja. The definition is given as 'the instruction specific to a particular line of teachers.' Synonyms given are samaja ('a community'), dala ('a sect') and sajatiya ('brotherhood').

Gurudeva: 'The instruction received in a particular line of teachers.' So what do we do? Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Prabhupada said the same thing. We accept the authorities or Mahajanas—mahajano yena gatah sa pantha. Something that just springs up out of nowhere cannot be accepted as authoritative. The conditioned soul has four defects: (1) bhrama ('the tendency to error'), (2) pramada ('inattention'), (3) karanapatava ('the inadequacy of the senses') and (4) vipralipsa ('the desire to deceive'). Any conditioned soul has these defects.

Bhrama means the tendency to think something that is true to be false and vice versa. Whatever I perceive directly (pratyaksa) or whatever deductions I make on the basis of those perceptions will be full of error. The sun is more than a million times bigger than the earth. But when we look at the rising sun, our eyes tell us that it is about the size of a saucer. In fact, it is 1,400,000 times bigger than the earth.

The word pramada means 'inattention.' Even when the senses do their job, the mind is not entirely attentive and so makes further errors. Karanapatava means the incapacity of the senses to properly perceive anything. And the last fault is quite devastating; it is vipralipsa, 'the desire to deceive.' Even though we don't really know what the truth is, we say, 'I have seen.' Generally, I give the example of Columbus. When Columbus was on his voyage of discovery to America, the sailors were about to start a mutiny. 'Where is Columbus taking us? He is leading us to certain death!' When Columbus heard all these mutinous utterings, he suddenly cried out, 'Eureka! Eureka!' Eureka is a Greek word that means, 'I have found it.' He discovered a great continent like America. Then the sailors all stopped the mutiny. So vipralipsa means the cheating propensity. Even though I don't see anything, I shout, 'Eureka!' I am using this just as an example. The idea is that it doesn't do me any good to shout out 'Eureka!' as though I have actually found something out when I haven't.

So these are the conditioned souls' four defects. The words of those who are free of such faults are considered authoritative or pramana. The word prama means 'knowledge.' So it is said, 'Authoritative evidence is that which leads to real knowledge' (pramano prama-jnana-janakam). Thus, the word prama means knowledge and pramana means that which leads to such knowledge. Why are the statements of the Mahajanas accepted as authoritative? It is because they have truly attained direct perception into the truth.

There are also many sampradayas or schools of thought that are based on misconceptions of the truth. These cannot be considered as genuine sampradayas, or credible schools of thought. Those who follow the teachings of such disciplic successions will not engage in genuine sadhana or bhajana. True bhajana or worship of the Lord, and sadhana, or exercising the means of attaining the Lord, begins when one follows in the footsteps of the previous acaryas.

Srila Prabhupada called our disciplic succession the Bhagavata-parampara. Why did he give it this name? Normally, people give a list of Gosvamis' names—all those who belonged to that particular family of gurus. Sometimes these include women. Was every one of these people a perfected soul or siddha? What do we mean by siddha? There are sadhakas or aspirants for perfection and siddhas, or those who have attained perfection. The name is there, siddha-pranali, but it is not enough just to have a name. Have they all attained perfection on the path of devotion? Devotion begins with practices that we call sadhana. But when one becomes perfected in these practices, he is called siddha. The characteristics of someone who is on the platform of perfection are described in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Amongst other things, the siddha is omniscient.

avijnatakhila-klesah sada krsnasrita-kriyah

siddhah syuh santata-prema-saukhyasvada-parayanah

'The siddhas have no awareness of any material suffering. All their actions are consecrated to Krsna and they are only engaged in constantly relishing the joys of love for Krsna.'

(Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 2.1.280)

So our spiritual master has given directions according to the way that he worshiped. Bhaktivinoda Thakura also... Now take out my copy of Mahaprabhura Siksa. Tell me what is written here.

Devotee: It says, [Reads] ''A discussion of authoritative statements (apta-vakya).' Something special needs to be said about the concept of apta-vakya. Everything spoken by someone who has attained spiritual authority (apta) is considered reliable. There is no need to look for hidden meanings in their words. The meaning that arises immediately upon hearing a series of words is the direct meaning or abhidha vrtti. Take for example, ayam saci-nandanah saksan nanda-nandanah —'This son of Sachi is the same person as the son of Nanda.'

Gurudeva: Bhaktivinoda Thakura is here making the distinction between direct (abhidha vrtti) and inferred (laksana) meaning. Every word functions in both these ways. Sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. With whom do we have an eternal relationship (sambandha)? Our existence comes from Krsna, so we have an eternal relationship with him. And as we advance in spiritual life, this relationship will develop into something substantial, like that between a father and son or whatever. These transcendental relationships are revealed to us in proportion to the intensity of our spiritual practice.

Devotee: Here it is said that the words that come down through authoritative channels are reliable sources of knowledge. Then, Bhaktivinoda Thakura goes on to explain the concept of guru parampara.

Gurudeva: Very good. Read on.

Devotee: [reading] 'What is an 'authoritative channel' (amnaya)?' And he answers...

Gurudeva:

amnayah srutayah saksad brahma-vidyeti visrutah

guru-parampara-praptah visva-kartur hi brahmanah

Devotee: That is exactly what is given here.

Gurudeva: visva-kartur hi brahmanah, 'beginning with Brahma, the creator.'

Devotee: [goes on reading, starting with the translation:] 'Ämnaya or the authorized and sacred tradition is defined as the transcendental knowledge that is embodied in the sruti and received through the system of parampara beginning with Brahma, the creator.' (Mahajana-karika, quoted in Gaudiya-kantha-hara, 1.62).

This statement is further supported by the Mundaka Upanisad (1.1.1):

brahma devanam prathamah sambabhuva visvasya karta bhuvanasya gopta

sa brahma-vidyam sarva-vidya-pratistham atharvaya jyestha-putraya praha

'Lord Brahma is the foremost of the demigods. He is the creator of the universe and its guardian. He instructed his eldest son, Atharva, in the science of transcendental knowledge (brahma-vidya) and thus became the first teacher within the universe. All other knowledge is based on this transcendental knowledge.'

yenaksaram purusam veda satyam provaca tam tattvato brahma-vidyam

'He spoke the transcendental knowledge by which one can truly know the imperishable Supreme Person.'(Mundaka Upanisad 1.1.13)

Gurudeva: [repeats the verses] Bhaktivinoda Thakura is discussing the ten basic teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the dasa-mula. These ten basic teachings include the sources of knowledge or pramana; the nine others are the prameya or elements demonstrated by these sources. So Bhaktivinoda Thakura is here explaining the first of the ten basic teachings or pramana.

amnayah praha tattvam harim iha paramam sarva-saktim rasabdhim

tad-bhinnamsams ca jivan prakrti-kavalitan tad-vimuktams ca bhavat

bhedabheda-prakasam sakalam api hareh sadhanam suddha-bhaktim

sadhyam tat pritim evety upadisati janan gauracandrah svayam sah

'Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu instructed everyone in these ten basic teachings. The first is that the source of knowledge is the amnaya or sacred tradition arising from the Upanishads. This tradition teaches that the Supreme Truth is Hari, who possesses all potencies and is the ocean of divine relationship. The living beings are His separated parts and parcels, which have been swallowed up by the material energy but can be liberated through spiritual feeling. Everything that exists is simultaneously both one and different from the Lord. The means of attaining Him is pure devotion and the goal of devotional practice is to develop love for Him.'(Dasa-mula-siksa, 1)

Now read on. What does it say about the disciplic succession?

Devotee: About the parampara, Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes: 'From this statement [in the Mundaka Upanisad], it is clear that a process of transmission of transcendental knowledge exists from the time of creation. This chain of transmission has preserved the purity of the teachings of the Bhagavata-dharma. This message is called amnaya. The Brahma sampradaya has been established in the scriptures by such passages as:

paravyomesvarasyasic chisyo brahma jagat-patih

'Brahma, the lord of the world, was the disciple of the Lord of Vaikuntha Himself.'(Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika)

'Anyone who refuses to accept such statements is a promoter of heresy. Those who accept the authority of Sri Krsna Caitanya but secretly do not accept this disciplic succession of spiritual masters are nothing but Kali's spies. Can there be any doubt of this?

'Whatever the case may be, those who are fortunate accept the authoritative testimony of the disciplic succession and consider the knowledge received in this way to be superior to that from all other sources. This is Mahaprabhu's first teaching.

'In the Tattva-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvami has written: athaiva sucitanam sri-krsna-vacya-vacakata-laksana-sambandha-tad-bhajana-laksana-vidheya-tat-prema-laksana-prayojanakhyanam arthanam nirnayaya pramanam tavad vinirniyate | tatra purusasya bhramadi...'

Gurudeva: Bhaktivinoda Thakura is saying the following about the guru parampara, that all these people have accepted the disciplic succession...

Devotee: Bhaktivinoda goes on: 'Jiva Gosvami establishes the validity of the testimony of authorized persons (apta), the authority of the Puranas and that of the Srimad Bhagavatam in particular as the most authoritative source of knowledge. So, in the same way that he establishes the Srimad Bhagavatam's glorious position as an authority, he also underlines the same for the scriptures composed by Brahma, Narada, Vyasa, Sukadeva, and then Vijayadhvaja, Brahma Tirtha, Vyasa Tirtha and the other Tattvavadis following Madhvacarya. From such statements, it is clear that the spiritual line of the servants of Lord Caitanya is the one that has come through Brahma. Kavi Karnapura confirmed this in his Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika where he wrote out the entire guru-pranali.'

Gurudeva: This is what I was about to say.

Devotee: Yes. [continues reading] 'Baladeva Vidyabhusana, the author of the Govinda-bhasya commentary on the Vedanta Sutras, also confirms the same disciplic succession. Is there any doubt that those who reject this connection are the greatest enemies of Sri Krsna Caitanya's followers?'

Gurudeva: This is the principal thing. It is written here.

Gopinath: [goes on reading] 'Sri Kavi Karnapura accepted Baladeva Vidyabhusana's disciplic succession.'

Gurudeva: Now read this. Kavi Karnapura has listed everyone in the disciplic succession and now Baladeva Vidyabhusana gives the same one. And Bhaktivinoda Thakura goes so far as to say that those who don't accept this disciplic succession are Mahaprabhu's enemies.

Devotee: Quite so. And he goes on to write here: 'The same Caitanya who revealed the eternal message of the Vedas in the heart of Brahma, the original philosopher (adi-kavi), appeared again in the Age of Kali in order to purify the auspicious Vedic doctrine and free it from the contaminations that had entered into it over the course of time. The four flaws, i.e., the desire to deceive, inattentiveness, the inadequacy of the senses, and the tendency to error, affect the judgment of every human being. Even the greatest scholars cannot free themselves of these defects when it comes to assessing transcedence. In these matters, the words of the Veda, which are not the product of human beings, are the only source of sure knowledge. The other sources of knowledge such as direct perception (pratyaksa), deduction (anumana), analogy (upamana), tradition (aitihya), etc., are all incapable of providing sure knowledge independent of sabda, or the divine sound vibration of the Veda.'

Then Bhaktivinoda Thakura goes on to write about Krsna as the supreme truth in the next chapter. 'Here Sri Krsna... '

Gurudeva: No, read further about the disciplic succession. Read here...

Devotee: 'A discussion of authoritative statements (apta-vakya). Something special needs to be said about the concept of apta-vakya. Everything spoken by someone who has attained spiritual authority (apta) is considered reliable. There is no need to look for hidden meanings in their words. The meaning that arises immediately upon hearing a series of words is the direct meaning or abhidha vrtti. Take for example, ayam sacinandanah saksan nandanandanah—'This son of Saci is the same person as the son of Nanda.' From this statement, it is quite clear that what is being said is that Gauracandra is one and the same as Krsnacandra. In the expression, 'The village on the Ganges,' however, the direct meaning cannot be accepted, [because no one builds a village on the water]... '

Gurudeva: In this case we have to go to the implied meaning or laksana vrtti.

Devotee: [continues reading] 'We understand the implied meaning that the village is on the banks of the Ganges. In the words of the Vedas, however, interpretation on the basis of such indirect meanings is not necessary. In the Chandogya Upanisad (8.13.1)... '

Gurudeva: That is syamac chabalam prapadye sabalac chyamam prapadye.

Devotee: [continues reading] 'syamac chabalam prapadye sabalac chyamam prapadye. Krsna's personal energy or svarupa-sakti is called sabala. So the meaning of this line is, 'I take shelter of Krsna through the essence of His personal energy and I take shelter of Krsna's personal energy through Him.' When the direct meaning of the Vedic scriptures is logical and easily understood.' This part is underlined then why should we follow Sankara's interpretation and say that syama means 'Brahman within the heart'? Liberated souls have a natural tendency to worship the Divine Couple—Radha and Syamasundara. This is the real meaning of this statement from the Vedic literature.

'Therefore the Caitanya-caritamrita (1.7.132) says,

laksana haite svatah pramanata-hani

'If one takes the indirect meaning of the Vedic texts, then the self-evident nature of the scriptures is lost.' There are many different categories of indirect meaning... '

Gurudeva: Alright, you can stop here. We needn't go any further into the indirect meanings. Now look in the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika; there is something there. I cannot read it myself.

Devotee: All right, Maharaja. Let's stop here.

Gurudeva: Now what is being said, here too... Whatever Srila Prabhupada has taught us about the disciplic succession is based on what is found here. Prabhupada has given a disciplic succession that is based on this Mahajana parampara. Look here, Prabhupada has given:

sri-krsna-devarsi-badarayana-samjnakan

sri-madhva-sri-padmanabha-sri-narahari-madhavan

aksobhya-jayatirtha-sri-jnana-sindhu-dayanidhin

sri-vidyanidhi-rajendra-jayadharman kramad vayam

purusottama-brahmanya-vyasatirthams ca samstumah

tato laksmipatim sriman-madhavendram ca bhaktitah

tac-chisyan srisvaradvaita-nityanandan jagad-gurun

devam isvara-sisyam sri-caitanyam ca bhajamahe

sri-krsna-prema-danena yena nistaritam jagat

kali-kalusa-santaptam karuna-sindhuna svayam

mahaprabhoh svarupa-sri-damodarah priyaìkarah

rupa-sanatanau dvau ca gosvami-pravarau prabhu

sri-jivo raghunathas ca rupa-priyo mahamatih

tat-priyah kaviraja-sri-krsna-dasa-prabhur matah

tasya priyatamah srilah seva-paro narottamah

tad-anugata-bhaktah sri-visvanathah sad-uttamah

tad-asaktas ca gaudiya-vedantacarya-bhusanam

vidya-bhusana-.-sri-baladevah sad-asrayah

vaisnava-sarvabhaumah sri-jagannatha-prabhus tatha

sri-mayapura-dhamnas tu nirdesta sajjana-piryah

'I praise Krsna, Brahma, Devarsi Narada and Vyasa, one after the other. I praise Sri Madhva, Padmanabha, Narahari, Madhava, Aksobhya, Jayatirtha, Jnanasindhu, Dayanidhi, Vidyanidhi, Rajendra, Jayadharma, Purusottama, Brahmanya, and Vyasa Tirtha. We devotedly praise Laksmipati and Madhavendra Puri whose disciples were Isvara Puri, Advaita Acarya and Nityananda Prabhu, the spiritual masters of the universe. I worship the ocean of mercy, Lord Sri Caitanya who accepted Isvara Puri as his guru and then personally saved the world, suffering in the Kali-yuga.

'Svarupa Damodara was Mahaprabhu's dear servant as were the two best of the Gosvamis, Rupa and Sanatana. Dear to Rupa were Sri Jiva and the wise Raghunatha. Very dear to him was Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja, and most dear to him was Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura, so devoted in service. The great saint Visvanatha was devoted to him, and the great acarya of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, Baladeva Vidyabhusana, was attached to Visvanatha. The emperor of the Vaisnavas, Jagannatha Prabhu followed him; he pointed out the birthplace of the Lord in Mayapura and thus became dear to all the saintly people.'

This is the disciplic succession up to Jagannatha Dasa Babaji. Then afterwards comes our Srila Prabhupada. Some people in Vrndavana said that Jagannatha Dasa lived 150 years, others 130 years. No matter, everyone accepts that he was a great saintly Vaisnava. He is three generations back. Bhagavata Dasa Babaji took diksa from Jagannatha Dasa Babaji and Gaura Kishor Dasa was his disciple, that is, he took bhek2 from him. Prabhupada took initiation from Gaura-kisora Dasa Babaji.

Gaura-kisora treated Bhaktivinoda Thakura as a guru and would go to hear the Bhagavatam from him. It was there that Srila Prabhupada first saw Gaura-kisora and his extraordinary demeanor. Srila Prabhupada used to say that Gaura-kisora was just like Raghunatha Dasa, whose renunciation was as firm as a line engraved in stone. He saw him madly singing a song in which he kept repeating, 'Where is my Radha, so full of divine love? Where is my Radha, so full of divine love?' Prabhupada liked the song so much that he wrote it down. Babaji Maharaja was singing, 'Where is my Radha, so full of divine love?' and the tears were flowing down his face and onto his chest. Maharaja was so unaware of the world around him that he did not even see whether he was dressed or not. His cloth had come off and he was wandering around, completely naked, singing this song to Radha.

When Prabhupada saw this level of renunciation, he went to Bhaktivinoda Thakura and asked his permission to take initiation from Gaura-kisora Dasa Babaji. So Bhaktivinoda Thakura gave him permission. This is the way the disciplic succession comes down to us. First, Jagannatha Dasa Babaji. Then Bhaktivinoda Thakura took daur-kaupina from him. And he was Gaura-kisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja's guru and Srila Prabhupada took initiation from him. So our disciplic succession is coming down in this way.

Now all these people in Vrndavana say that the Gaudiya Matha has no parampara. But we don't accept what they say. Out of their ignorance they say that we have no disciplic succession. They say that what we have is something entirely new. They ask us whether we have a guru-pranali. But we ask them to study this matter carefully and then come back and tell us whether we have a guru-pranali or not. Then I said to him,

sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah

atah kalau bhavisyanti catvarah sampradayinah

The point is that if you worship without following the instructions that come in a disciplic succession of bona fide spiritual masters, then it will not bear fruit. That's why we repeat this verse,

sampradaya-vihina ye mantras te nisphala matah

atah kalau bhavisyanti catvarah sampradayinah

So what are the four sampradayas? They are the Sri, Brahma, Rudra and Sanaka sampradayas. These four will appear in the Age of Kali out of the Purusottama in Orissa. So there are four lines of disciplic succession. Ramanujam srih svicakre—the goddess Sri chose Ramanujacarya as her representative. That is the Sri sampradaya. Madhvacaryam caturmukhah—Brahma selected Madhvacarya as the founder of his line. Sri-visnu-svaminam rudro—Rudra, who is considered the foremost of Vaisnavas (vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh), accepted Visnusvami as the founder of his line, while nimbadityam catuhsanah—the four Kumaras chose Nimbarka as their representative. So from each of these founders, preceptorial lines were begun. We do not accept the disciplic successions of anyone who is against these four Vaisnava sampradayas.

Devotee: They haven't been so influenced. But I have a question about this.

Gurudeva: All these Babajis want to boycott Srila Prabhupada.

Devotee: A most unfortunate matter.

Gurudeva: Prabhupada was such a powerful personality. He spoke with such force that they would just sit in silence. Let them say whatever they want. Prabhupada's philosophical conclusions are the highest. We must engage in worship according to these conclusions. Then they will understand. Everyone is trying to deviate from the truth in different ways. They try to deviate others and make them fall down from the path of spiritual life. The people on the other side of the river, in the current Navadvipa town, used to say, 'Where are you going? To Mayapura? That's so far away from here.' They would try all kinds of things. Bhaktivinoda Thakura tried so hard to find the birthplace, but no one could tell him where it was. They only said maybe here, maybe there.

Devotee: How much compassion he had for the world that led him to search so vigorously!

Gurudeva: Bhaktivinoda Thakura saw it directly. He saw a building...

Devotee: He saw a building in Godrumadvipa.

Gurudeva: Prabhupada told us that about Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and this is absolute and no one should doubt it. Tell him that. I am a great fool, but two or three days before Srila Prabhupada left this world, I had the chance to hold his lotus feet on my chest, completely. Prabhupada was sitting on a chair and I held his feet on my chest. I have no other qualification. Prabhupada gave me his blessings. And Sridhara Maharaja and many of Prabhupada's other dear disciples were also very affectionate to me. Everyone knows these things.

Devotee: This is very true. You have no qualifications, that is, you are nirguna. You are free of all material qualities!

Gurudeva: No, no. The venerable Sridhara Maharaja... Whenever I had any kind of doubt, I would go running over to see Sridhara Maharaja. Some people do not know what kind of relationship existed between us and so they say many things. So explain to Rama Dasa Baba, that the sampradaya Prabhupada has given us is called the Bhagavata-parampara. You have to memorize it.

Baba, explain one other thing to him. Who is a siddha? If we engage in the practice in the way we should, then perfection is inevitable. What is the practice? Devotion. Bhakti is both the means and the end. But it is said,

nitya-siddha krsna-prema sadhya kabhu naya

sravanadi suddha-citte karaye udaya

'Ecstatic love for Krsna is eternally perfect and cannot be achieved through any effort; however, it manifests in the heart that has been purified by the acts of devotion such as hearing and chanting.'(Caitanya-caritamrta 2.22.104)

Hearing and chanting are activities that purify the consciousness. Of all the devotional activities, chanting of the Holy Names is the best. Love for God appears to us when our consciousness has been purified by chanting the Holy Name. Rupa Gosvami described the process of devotional practice that leads to the development of prema. Mahaprabhu explained this to Sanatana Gosvami:

kona bhagye kona jivera sraddha jadi haya tabe sei jiva sadhu-saìga je karaya

sadhu-saìga haite haya sravana-kirtana sadhana-bhaktye haya sarvanartha-nivartana

anartha-nivrtti haile bhaktye nistha haya nistha haite sravanadye ruci upajaya

ruci haite bhaktye haya asakti pracura asakti haite citte janme krsne prity-aìkura

sei bhava gadha haile dhare prema-nama sei prema prayojana sarvananda-dhama

'If by some great good fortune, a certain living entity develops faith in Krsna, he begins to associate with devotees. As a result of associating with devotees, he takes up practical devotional service beginning with hearing and chanting. Such spiritual practice frees him from all unwanted material contamination and that leads to constancy. When one has nistha or firmness in one's practice, then a taste for hearing and chanting and other practices arises. The next step is the awakening of a deep attachment and from that attachment the first manifestations of love finally appear in the heart like a tree's seedling. These first ecstatic manifestations are called bhava, which intensify to become love of Godhead or prema, the ultimate goal of life and the reservoir of all pleasure.' (Caitanya-caritamrta 2.23.9-13)

When loving feelings first start to manifest, the devotee starts to experience ecstasy. As these loving feelings intensify, one attains prema. Prema, or divine ecstatic love, is the ultimate goal of human life and 'the reservoir of all pleasure.' When one attains love, then,

premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti

yam syamasundaram acintya-svarupam govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

'I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Syamasundara, Krsna himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.' (Brahma-samhita 5.38)

This is what happens. So anyone who wants to experience love of God must start with chanting the Holy Name. And that must be done properly. But we cannot understand why our minds are still being distracted and wandering away from the Name. This is our own fault. This is why the sign of firmness in practice is given as aviksepena satatyam, or constancy without distraction. In this way, I may chant five million Names without experiencing even a drop of ecstatic love.

So we have to chant the Holy Name, and we must do it properly. If we do so, then we will make advancement and develop a little affection for the Lord. It is often seen that as we chant, we may get feelings of extreme humility and perhaps tears will even come to our eyes. But this should not make us think that we have become great Vaisnavas. Watch out for that kind of egoism. We are presently only in the beginning stages of devotional life. There are three degrees of advancement—beginning, intermediate and advanced. In the beginning stage, our principal objective is to become free of defects, or anarthas. When we can rid ourselves of all these anarthas, then we will become fixed in our devotion. That is the stage known as nistha.

Now what is going on, Baba, is that these people have not yet given up their sinful activities, their defects, and they are discussing all of these elevated aspects of spiritual life, thinking that they are quite advanced. Studying the lives of these Babajis is just creating a disturbance. It is not our concern whether someone is good or whatever. We don't want to make any enemies. Why do you think I keep repeating these Bhagavata verses about fault-finding? The Bhagavata says that whether you go looking for the qualities or the faults, it all comes down to the same fault-finding spirit. It has condemned the practice:

para-svabhava-karmani na prasamsen na garhayet

visvam ekatmakam pasyan prakrtya purusena ca

para-svabhava-karmani yah prasamsati nindati

sa asu bhrasyate svarthad asatyabhinivesatah

'Knowing that this entire universe is the product of the one indwelling Supersoul and the combination of matter and spirit, one should not criticize or praise the activities of others, which are going on as a result of their nature. Anyone who either praises or criticizes the natural activities of others will quickly lose his position on the spiritual path because of his absorption in untruth.' (SB 11.28.1-2)

Ramacandra Puri had this particular tendency. It is natural for ants to wander everywhere, but when Ramacandra saw ants near the Gambhira, he said:

ratrav atra aiksavam asit, tena pipilikah sancaranti aho!

viraktanam sannyasinam iyam indriya-lalaseti bruvann utthaya gatah.

''Last night there was sugar candy here and so today there are ants all about. How dreadful to see a renounced sannyasi attached to sense gratification in this way!' After speaking in this way, he got up and left.' (Caitanya-caritamrta 3.8.48)

When you give up this faultfinding tendency, you actually become a human being.

Devotee: The Bhagavata clearly says in the very beginning that this scripture is for the non-envious and the saintly—nirmatsaranam satam.

Gurudeva: That is so. In the very beginning. What is religion? dharmah projjhita-kaitavo'tra paramo nirmatsaranam satam... We cannot accept someone who is envious to be a true sadhu. The question is, who pleases the Lord? Look at the end of the twelfth chapter of the Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says,

yasman nodvijate loko lokan nodvijate ca yah

harsamarsa-bhayodvegair mukto yah sa ca me priyah

'I love the devotee who is neither disturbed by anyone nor causes disturbance to any person, and who is free from the pulls of euphoria, anger and fear.' (Gita 12.15)

anapeksah sucir daksa udasino gata-vyathah

sarvarambha-parityagi yo mad-bhaktah sa me priyah

'I love the devotee who has no expectation, is pure and skilled, indifferent, who has no worries and gives up all sense of self-centered activity.' (Gita 12.16)

yo na hrsyati na dvesti na socati na kaìksati

subhasubha-parityagi bhaktiman yah sa me priyah

'I love the devoted person who is free from elation, anger, sorrow and craving, who neither seeks the pleasant nor shuns the unpleasant.' (Gita 12.17)

samah satrau ca mitre ca tatha manapamanayoh

sitosna-sukha-duhkhesu samah saìga-vivarjitah

tulya-ninda-stutir mauni santusto yena kenacit

aniketah sthira-matir bhaktiman me priyo narah

'I love the devotee who is the same to friend and foe, unchanged by honor or insult, heat and cold, in pleasure as in pain, who is unmoved by praise or blame, silent, contented by whatever comes his way, unattached to home, and is steady in mind.' (Gita 12.18-19)

Krsna Himself tells us what kind of devotee is dear to Him. So we don't want to create a relation of undying enmity with any man. Prahlada Maharaja prays for the happiness of even the envious person—svasty astu visvasya khalah prasidatam (SB 5.18.9). A devotee like Prahlada desires the welfare of everyone in the world.

Devotee: The Vaisnavas are so merciful! Just look at their compassionate nature. They even seek the welfare and happiness of the evil and envious.

Gurudeva: Why not? They are all spirit souls. They are covered over because they have been in bondage since time immemorial. But Mahaprabhu revealed the nature of the spirit soul when he is free from these material coverings.

naham vipro na ca narapatir napi vaisyo na sudro

naham varni na ca grhapatir no vanastho yatir va

kintu prodyan-nikhila-paramananda-purnamrtabdher

gopi-bhartuh .-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

'I am not a brahmana, nor a ksatriya, nor a vaisya, nor a sudra. Neither am I a brahmacari, a householder, a retired man or a renunciate. My real identity is that I am the most insignificant servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Krsna, the lover of the Gopis and overflowing ocean of supreme and immortal joy.'

This is our identity when we are in our pure state. This is true for every single jiva, whether coming from Europe or America. The soul is the same for everyone. There is only one Supreme Lord, Krsna. He is the father of the universe:

aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate

iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitah

'I am the source of all things. Everything proceeds from Me. Believing this, the wise worship Me with great feeling.' (Gita 10.7)

All the moving and non-moving creatures—all the universes have come forth from Him. Europe, America, Africa—all these places have the same source. They are not different. Even so, the spiritual or mystical tendency is stronger in India. Ever since Vyasadeva, religious practices have always been stronger here. That is why we call our land, 'spiritual India' (paramarthika bharata). This is why Mahaprabhu never left India, even though He said,

prthivite ache jata nagaradi grama

sarvatra pracara haibeka mora nama

'My name will be heard in every single town and village in the world.' (Caitanya-bhagavat 3.14.126)

And where were Bhaktivinoda Thakura's books found? In a library. Svami Maharaja found Bhaktivinoda Thakura's book in a library. Svami Maharaja went throughout the world— Europe, America, everywhere. Vivekananda also went, but he acted improperly, spreading incorrect doctrines. Only the Gaudiya Matha teaches the truth as given by Mahaprabhu.

Vivekananda taught the equality of all religions, sarva-dharma-samanvaya. Somebody considers karma to be the best path, someone else jnana, someone else yoga. But Mahaprabhu pointed out that bhakti was the only way and that these others were ultimately ineffective. All these things—karma, jnana, yoga—have been explained in the Bhagavad-gita. But in the end, Krsna says,

man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru

mam evaisyasi satyam te pratijane priyo'si me

'Always think of Me, worship Me by engaging in devotional service of hearing and chanting, serve Me in My Deity form, offer your very being unto Me, and you will surely reach Me. This is My sincere promise to you because you are My dear friend.'(Gita 18.65)

And then He follows that by saying, sarva-dharman parityajya—abandon all these other paths. In particular, sarva-dharman means the practices related to varnasrama-dharma. This is stated in the commentary by Visvanatha Cakravarti. Varnasrama-dharma implies the worshiping of various gods and goddesses.

So, Baba, memorize the disciplic succession that was given by Srila Prabhupada. Repeat it each day when you are performing your daily (ahnika) rituals after bathing. You will achieve everything by simply doing this. We are not without a proper disciplic succession. We worship according to the standards of the disciplic succession. For it is stated, mahajano yena gatah sa panthah.

tarko'pratisthah srutayo vibhinna nasau rsir yasya matam na bhinnam

dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah

'Argument alone has no solid foundation. The scriptures contradict each other. No one is considered a sage without having expressed an individual opinion. The truths about religious duty are concealed in the heart. Thus, the only true path is the one that has been followed by great authorities.' (Mahabharata)

This verse was spoken by Yudhisthira. Arguments alone cannot bring one to any firm conclusion. Argument depends on the use of deduction and so on, but these are insufficient to give a firm basis. The scriptures give varying opinions. There is a Bengali saying, nana muni nana mata—'Many philosophers, many opinions.' No one can establish himself as a philosopher unless he presents an original opinion. So which way should I go? He goes on, dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam—'The truth of religions is concealed in the heart of a pure devotee.' Therefore, in the story of Ajamila in the Bhagavatam, twelve great authorities are mentioned by name. The Yamadutas went to Yamaraja to complain about the Visnudutas. Yamaraja explained to them:

dharmas tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam na vai vidur rsayo napi devah

na siddha-mukhya asura manusyah kuto nu vidyadhara-caranadayah

'Religious duties have been established by God Himself. Thus no one really knows them in full—not the rsis, demigods, perfected beings, demons or humans, what to speak of the Vidyadharas or the Caranas.'

svayambhur naradah sambhuh kumarah kapilo manuh

prahlado janako bhismo balir vaiyasakir vayam

dvadasaite vijanimo dharmam bhagavatam bhatah

guhyam visuddham durbodham yam jnatvamrtam asnute

'There are twelve of us who do know the religious duties prescribed by the Lord, the Bhagavata-dharma. We are Brahma, Narada, Siva, the four Kumaras, Kapila, Manu, Prahlada, Janaka, Bhisma, Bali, Suka and myself. Anyone who understands this secret, pure and mysterious teaching will attain immortality.' (Srimad Bhagavatam 6.3.19-21)

We are following the same path that was established by these great authorities. Prabhupada taught us all this. There are so many brahmanas' names in the guru parampara lists. Prabhupada knew all this, but what was his vision? Externally, people may say so many things, but what is going on internally? Therefore he did not accept any of it. I mean Bhaktivinoda Thakura's spiritual master... Srila Prabhupada was an extremely spirited and vigorous preacher, you know.

Devotee: He refused to accept any deception in the name of religion.

Gurudeva: Falsity, deception. He gave no quarter to any of these things. All these so-called siddhas! They are siddha ('boiled') like boiled potatoes or boiled vegetables. Just saying someone is a perfected being does not make it so. Perfect in devotion! How many people are actually engaged in cultivating devotional service? Simply carrying a fat string of japa beads does not mean that I am engaged in the proper practice of devotional service. This is all phony devotion, mere imitation.

Devotee: Guru Maharaja, what about Vipina Vihari Gosvami? The way that Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes about him, it seems that he was very respectful toward him.

Gurudeva: Bhaktivinoda Thakura accepted him as his guru. For this reason we should never disrespect him. We must be silent about this matter. But we can say that Prabhupada did not agree to follow in his footsteps. So it is not necessary for us to do so either.

Devotee: Nowadays, all the Western devotees are coming along and trying to find out everything they can about the past history of the matha. They want to know who had what kinds of relations with whom and so on.

Gurudeva: Yes, I know about that. When I went to Vrndavana, the Babajis would say that the Gaudiya Matha has no guru parampara. This or that is missing from the Gaudiya Matha's tradition. But Srila Prabhupada was an extremely spirited and strong individual, you know. He never bothered with any of their criticisms.

Devotee: He just blew them off like puffs of smoke.

Gurudeva: Prabhupada used to say to me when I was taking notes, 'Note this down carefully. These are things that you won't hear again.' I could say more, but I have been sick for the past five years. But don't allow doubts to trouble you. Everything that I am saying I heard from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada was jagat-guru. Whatever the Vrndavana Babajis say about us is completely unjust. Baba, just explain one thing to them: Firm devotion only comes after sinful contamination is removed from the heart.

adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sago'tha bhajana-kriyah

tato'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah

'First, one has faith. Then he can associate with devotees. This leads to the practice of devotional activities like hearing and chanting. The result of such practices is firm commitment to devotion.'

That is also explained in the Bhagavatam:

tada rajas-tamo-bhavah kama-lobhadayas ca ye

ceta etair anaviddham sthitam sattve prasidati

'When this state of naisthiki bhakti is reached, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the devotee's heart. Thus established in goodness, the devotee becomes completely happy.' (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.19)

No one is hoodwinking you here. First rid yourself of your anarthas, then you will come to the stage of nistha.

Devotee: And we get rid of our anarthas by determined practice of bhajana.

Gurudeva: That's correct. We must engage in the practices of devotion, bhajana. There is nothing to worry about. Everything that I am saying I heard from Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada was jagat-guru. No one can add to what Prabhupada said. His word is final. Prabhupada used to sing about being his spiritual master's dog. I am like that. You know, Bhaktivinoda Thakura's song?

sarvasva tomara carana sampiya parechi tomara ghare

tumi ta thakura tomara kukura baliya janaha more

baìdhiya nikate amare palibe rahiba tomara dvare

pratipa janere asite na diba rakhiba garera pare

tava nija-jana prasada seviya ucchista rakhibe jaha

amara bhojana parama anande prati dine habe taha

basiya suiya tomara carana cintiba satata ami

nacite nacite nikate jaiba jakhana dakibe tumi

nijere posana kabhu na bhaviba rahiba bhavera bhare

bhakativinoda tomare palaka baliya varana kare

'I have surrendered everything to your lotus feet and have fallen at your door. I ask you to recognize that I am your dog and you are my master.

'You will tie me up nearby and take care of me. I will remain near your doorway and chase away thieves and other dangerous people, keeping them on the other side of the moat.

'Every day, I will joyfully eat only the leftovers of the devotees who have eaten your prasada.

'Whether sitting or lying down, I will only think of your lotus feet. Whenever you call, I will go dancing toward you.

'I will never think of my own needs or maintenance, but will remain blissfully in the joy of my feelings for you. Bhaktivinoda officially accepts you as his protector.' (Saranagati, 19)

I go running to the Lord when He calls me, 'Hey you!'

Devotee: Please be merciful to us that we may also become pet dogs like that. May we become your dog!

Gurudeva: Let me give you some advice. Buy a copy of Mahaprabhura Siksa. Just see how Bhaktivinoda Thakura has written about the disciplic succession. I will not be able to give you this copy...

Devotee: I will try to get hold of a copy.

Gurudeva: You can get it at the Bagh Bazaar Matha.

FOOTNOTES

1 Sabda-sara, a Sanskrit-Bengali dictionary by Girish Chandra Vidyaratna, professor Sanskrit College, Calcutta, 3rd edition, revised and enlarged. Calcutta: The Girish Vidyaratna Press, 1880.

2 Bhek is the sannyasa initiation of the babajis.

3 The loincloth that is characteristic of the Babaji stage of life, i.e., he was his sannyasa guru.

April 14, 2005

If you want to take verses here and there and concoct your own version of Gaudiya siddhanta, fine. If we take all of the teachings on this topic as a whole, instead of just focusing on individual statements taken out of the holistic context they are part of, good luck with that.

Again if you take single statements out of the tradition and attempt to concoct your own version of Gaudiya siddhanta without reference to all the teachings on this topic, again, good luck with that.

Out of context? Hello? I believe you were "calling into question the promotion of a manjari bhava centric ideology as being authentic Gaudiya tattva." Yet when verses showing exactly how Srila Prabhupada promotes a manjari-bhava-centric ideology as authentic Gaudiya tattva, you say these quotes are out of context? Good luck with that.

Sorry Shiva, but since you have yourself twisted shastra and guru-vani way out of context in the past and presenting such queer conclusions - such as that Arjuna and Krishna are enjoying madhurya-bhava rasa - I hope you'll forgive me if I do not respect your opinions on shastra as much as I should do. You can't just dismiss these quotes from Srila Prabhupada's books as this is not a cherry-picking philosophy. These quotes are not out of context since Chapters 27-32 of Srila Prabhupada's Teachings of Lord Caitanya deal extensively with this subject. These quotes completely contradict your viewpoint and you will just have to deal with it, sorry.

Clearly when we study all of the teachings , we are told repeatedly that a devotee will naurally be attracted to a particular bhava in Vraja, not necessarily the gopis.

So what is your point? I don't think that anyone brought this into question or suggested its invalidity. My point is that gopi-bhava is the main focus of the Gaudiya sampradaya, so people who may be attracted to a different bhava will have a bit of a hard time since much of Gaura-vani and Goswami-vani is gopi-bhava.

No one, while remaining on the material platform, should discuss these different descriptions of bhava and anubhava by quoting different statements of transcendental literatures.

So why are you talking? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

April 14, 2005

I didn't say that the siddha-pranali or guru-pranali is bogus, just that it is not necessary, if it was it would have been mentioned in the original teachings. A parampara is teachings coming through a succession of teachers. The guru-pranali concept being promoted in this thread is about the revealing of manjari swarups and giving teachings on that, the guru's manjari swarupa, the previous guru's manjari swarupa, and the disciples manjari swarupa.

Shiva, I asked you a specific question and your answer shows that you do not know the meaning of the term 'guru pranali.'

Let me tell you what it means; it is the same as parampara. And when you refer to the disciplic lines of the guru-varga's manjari forms, that is the siddha-pranali.

Look, you're not going to change my mind on these things no matter what you write.

I doubt that anyone here wishes to change your mind, especially since you do not appear to have a comprehensive knowledge of Srila Prabhupada's teachings on the subject. With all respects, posting quotes from Srila Prabhupada about how "we should not discuss" and then proceeding to write long posts full of cut'n'pastes from him is not a very honest way to go about things, at least not to me.

Your final point about not being qualified to understand and to always remain in the position of student also does not go a very long way in answering the original Guest's questions. The original Guest specifically wanted information about the siddha-pranali practice, and as far as I can see, neither you nor Muralidhar or others have answered this question adequately, but have instead given long spiels about how it is not needed (according to you guys) and "doesn't exist" etc. By your own and other's comments, you do not know about siddha-pranali due to your lack of qualification or whatever, so why are you talking so much about why the topic should not be discussed? Is it because you do not know about it, so you don't want others to discuss it too? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

April 14, 2005

Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary.

Like others, I question the authenticity of the translation that you are using. Also, I notice that the file that you kindly linked to only contains the Fourth Adhyaya. Do you happen to have the Third? The translation you are using contradicts the commentaries of Sankaracharya and Ramanujacharya as far as I have seen. More later. Or not..

The book "Brhadbhagavatamrtam" by Srila Sanatan Goswami is a detailed study of the practicing life and of a devotee in sakhya-bhava.

There is elaborate information in Bhaktirasamrtasindu (nectar of devotion) about dasya, vatsalya and sakhya-bhakti.

Very good, but I'm afraid that you and kailasa have misunderstood my point. I know that there is "information" in BB and BRS about the other rasa, but my main point is that Gaudiya Vaisnavas are taught that gopi-bhava is on the "highest" level. And this is something you will find written all over the place. This is something that is undeniable and cannot be run away from, sorry. Srila Prabhupada states in TLC that this is the "highest stage of transcendental love. Thus one who wants to be elevated to the transcendental stage of perfection should follow in the footsteps of the damsels of Vraja as an assistant maidservant of the gopis." (TLC Chap. 32) It appears that Shiva is arguing with Raga about the latter's document and the idea that only manjari-bhava can be taught. Well, this is also what the Acaryas say...

April 14, 2005

CC Adi 4.42: Four kinds of devotees are the receptacles of the four kinds of mellows in love of God, namely servitude, friendship, parental affection and conjugal love.

CC Adi 4.43: Each kind of devotee feels that his sentiment is the most excellent, and thus in that mood he tastes great happiness with Lord Krsna.

CC Adi 4.44: But if we compare the sentiments in an impartial mood, we find that the conjugal sentiment is superior to all others in sweetness.

CC Adi 4.45: "Increasing love is experienced in various tastes, one above another. But that love which has the highest taste in the gradual succession of desire manifests itself in the form of conjugal love."

raga · April 14, 2005

Then again, can you please advise me where in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu the interesting things that you have found are, and I will take a look in the translations I have with me. We have Srila Sridhar Maharaj's bengali edition here in my house, and I have a native Bengli speaker living with me now.

The reason why I'm saying it'll be there in a week or so is I need to dig through the commentaries before saying much on the topic. I'll get back to you with this one by e-mail.

There are also points I wish to make regarding the passage of Brahmasutra you cite, however for that I'll have to go over the entire section with good time and compare some other tikas as well.

BTW if you have GB or other works in Sanskrit that we don't have at GGM, consider sharing them for the good of everyone?

April 14, 2005

I decided to get a name since there are so many guests posting so many different things. I can't tell who is who...

Anyway,

The original Guest specifically wanted information about the siddha-pranali practice, and as far as I can see, neither you nor Muralidhar or others have answered this question adequately, but have instead given long spiels about how it is not needed (according to you guys) and "doesn't exist" etc.

I am the original Guest who asked the question, and Muralidhar's response was very helpful. As per my understanding of Muralidhar's and Raga's replies, "siddha-pranali" is not mentioned as a concept until Dhyanacandra Gosvami. Prior to this, there is only mention of "siddha-deha" (in BRS) by which one should do service. I don't think anyone contests the idea that we all have a "siddha-deha," so that is not helpful.

Recall that my rationale for asking the question was to determine if those who do not have a "siddha-pranali" are automatically by the very fact not legitimate Gaudiya Vaishnavas. I have heard many condescending references to the parampara of Bhaktisiddhanata Saraswati and his followers because "they don't even know their siddha-pranali" or some such thing, and I wanted to investigate how far such attitudes are justified.

I don't think anyone denies that there is a siddha-pranali tradition based on the literatures of Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Muralidhar did make the point that present-day siddha-pranali is different from the type written of by Dhyanacandra Gosvami. I would like to know more about these alleged differences in detail.

I am less convinced of (a) its necessity to be called a Gaudiya Vaishnava, and (b) its absolute necessity to attain one's siddha-deha. For example, Shiva quoted this statement from Raga Vartma Candrika to that effect:

"Uddhava says in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.29.6: Krishna reveals Himself through the acarya or through the agency of the caitya guru. Thus some devotee attains knowledge about the moods of Krishna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practise of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts."

Correct me if I am mistaken (and I do not believe I saw a response to this), but this would seem to confirm Bhaktisiddhanta's opinion (as stated by Muralidhar) that a devotee can have the knowledge revealed to him independent of a siddha-pranali.

Shiva also brought up the point that while madhurya rasa is felt to be "highest" by Gaudiyas, they nevertheless acknowledge that each devotee will be attracted to a particular form of service. Thus, not all of them are destined to be in madhurya rasa, and certainly they cannot all be manjaris. I would have to agree with Shiva and Muralidhar on this one, and disagree with the guest who is assailing them. Again, it's just based on what I have read to date - Gaudiyas relish madhurya-rasa, but they don't force people into that line.

Yet, only manjari siddha-pranalis exist - why is this? If you want to practice raganuga-bhakti, you can only become a manjari? Somehow this just does not seem consistent. If one must have a siddha-pranali to be called a legitimate Gaudiya Vaishnava, then does it not follow that only a small minority of people can ever become Gaudiya Vaishnavas, since there are only so many who are destined to realize their identities as manjaris? Or is it that they can award manjari-bhava even to those who are not really manjaris? I don't think I got an answer to this question.

Raga was clear that the qualification for meditating with one's siddha-deha was the same as his qualification for performing raganuga-bhakti - lobha. Beyond the dictionary definition, I naturally wanted to know what having this lobha involves. Can someone have this lobha even if he has not attained the stage of anartha-nivritti, for example? Can he have it, if for example, he is impious in his behavior (like having girlfriend, eating eggs, and so on)? I would like to know definitively how one acts and speaks when one has this "lobha." It's obviously not a trivial question.

This is a good discussion. I hope we can keep it from becoming heated.

Thanks,

alpa-medhasaH

April 14, 2005

In reply to:

--

Shiva:

Look, you're not going to change my mind on these things no matter what you write.

--

And this is precisely the reason why I am not responding to a good many of the things you keep educating others about. If you do not entertain even a theoretical possibility that there might be a vision more correct than yours, what's the point in discussing.

kRpAlaGkAra and rUpAlaGkAra - I already pointed out twice that the second is what Visvanath Chakravarti supports as the correct reading. If you want to disagree with him in favor of what you find the more esoteric alternative (without understanding the esoterica of Radharani's left-over ornaments), please be my guest.

To be fair, Raga, I think Shiva was speaking to another guest about something else, and not with you regarding kRpAlaGkAra vs rUpalaGkAra.

April 14, 2005

Hey Raga it is YOU speak "Prabhupada not rupanuga"?

Yes? or Not?

It is understable? I am try write very clear for you.

I don't mean to make you feel unwelcome, but I am having a hard time understanding you. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

regards,

alpa-medhasaH

April 14, 2005

The reason why I'm saying it'll be there in a week or so is I need to dig through the commentaries before saying much on the topic. I'll get back to you with this one by e-mail.

There are also points I wish to make regarding the passage of Brahmasutra you cite, however for that I'll have to go over the entire section with good time and compare some other tikas as well.

Please post to this group if you don't mind. If there is clear description of "siddha-pranali" in BRS, then I want to know.

BTW if you have GB or other works in Sanskrit that we don't have at GGM, consider sharing them for the good of everyone?

Yes, please do. I have GB in Sanskrit, but not in electronic form. It would be painful to scan the entire thing in.

alpa-medhasaH

raga · April 14, 2005

Please post to this group if you don't mind. If there is clear description of "siddha-pranali" in BRS, then I want to know.

No, that isn't concerning siddha-pranali in BRS. That's concerning the svarupa of the jiva as latent or otherwise.

Did you notice the account of Gopal Bhatta Goswami bestowing kama-gayatri and siddha-deha to Shrinivas, cited in the document I posted? I believe that's an important precedent.

Now, one may say that there isn't a pranali given there, just the siddha-deha of Gopal Bhatta and of his disciple, Shrinivas. However, consider this: That's all there was to the pranali at that time, since Gopal Bhatta is one of the ashta-manjaris and hence at the root of the pranali.

With regards to biographical accounts, I also recall hearing of an account of Advaita Acharya revealing someone's siddha-deha, narrated in one of these biographical works, but I've never tracked it down.

It is true that siddha-pranali as such isn't explicitly spelled out in the writings of the Goswamis. However the legitimate theological premises for the practice are there, that can hardly be contested. As mentioned, Dhyanachandra Goswami, and his guru Gopal Guru Goswami, wrote of such practice in their paddhatis. (Unfortunately I have only Dhyanachandra's paddhati at my disposal, I hear they are fairly identical.)

The way you'll see it practiced nowadays (aside complaints about people not being qualified, I mean in its shape) is how the tradition came to practically implement the dilemma described in my essay about contemplating on siddha-deha during the stage of sadhana. That's the way it has been practiced for centuries, and the practice is virtually universal among Gaudiyas seeking for manjari-bhava outside the Gaudiya Math and its offshoots.

As to whether someone can attain his siddha-deha without first hearing of it from the guru: Yes, in principle it is possible on the strength of extremely strong samskaras of bhajana from the previous life. However, for someone without prior bhakti-samskaras such attainment will be troublesome, as the sadhaka's conception will not be clear.

This is why you read in Bhaktivinoda's Jaiva Dharma the hearing of ekAdaza-bhAva labeled as upAsaka-parizkRti, or the refinement of the worshiper's conception as some have aptly translated it.

It is also, in theory, possible to attain Krishna without hearing descriptions of him. Let all that awaken from within, one may say, why should I hear about it from a guru. Or descriptions of Radha and the sakhis, why should I hear all that. It isn't really necessary since the holy name has the power to reveal everything. And why should I hear of my own svarupa? The holy name reveals it whenever is the time for it. That does not stand to reason, as far as I am concerned.

kailasa · April 14, 2005

Very good, but I'm afraid that you and kailasa have misunderstood my point. I know that there is "information" in BB and BRS about the other rasa, but my main point is that Gaudiya Vaisnavas are taught that gopi-bhava is on the "highest" level.

As mood Lord Caitanya. Sabhoga - no. In mood Lord Caitanya ALL rases rise in level madhurya vipralambha.

Siva right too, first - all rases equal. We write "low-highe" in material motives, politiks motives, then Siva right. Yes?

Another point - in mood Lord Caitanya all rases go in highe position. It another sence - mahavadanyaa avatara /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It is good discussions. Thanks for all. Thanks Murali! /images/graemlins/smile.gif You wery kind.

kailasa · April 15, 2005

I don't mean to make you feel unwelcome, but I am having a hard time understanding you. I'm sure I'm not the only one

It is simply question for Raga. He is speak this or not.

Thanks for you atention.

muralidhar_das · April 15, 2005

A Guest wrote:

<hr> <blockquote>In reply to Muralidhar, who wrote:<hr />

Your interpretation of the word "attained" is wrong my friend. Indeed, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusan specifically deals with this point in his Govinda Bhasya commentary.

anonymous wrote:

Like others, I question the authenticity of the translation that you are using.

<hr>

Huh? question the authenticity? I have made the file available for you to read. We might discuss the accuracy of the translation, but when you say you "question the authenticity", it seems you are saying I'm trying to cheat people or propogate lies. Well, I have known Madhava for a few years and I've had a number of discussions with him about the very topic we are discussing now. If I presented an "inauthentic" presentation, surely it would come back to haunt me later on. People know my name. I am not "anonymous". I am not trying to lie or deceive you with bogus, inauthentic texts.

Also, I notice that the file that you kindly linked to only contains the Fourth Adhyaya. Do you happen to have the Third? The translation you are using contradicts the commentaries of Sankaracharya and Ramanujacharya as far as I have seen. More later. Or not..

</blockquote>

Yes I have the complete Govinda Bhasya.

And the reason I posted the links to Sivananda Swami's edition of Brahma Sutra and Sri Ramanuja's edition is that both these editions do support the proposition I'm presenting. Which is, that the soul does not get given a new form or new body when he is liberated. Rather, you awaken in full awareness of your own inner wealth.

In discussions I had some time ago with people at Madhava's website, other people there looked up their editions of Govinda Bhasya and confirmed that the section I have presented is indeed present in their edition of Govinda Bhasya.

Specifically this verse from the Padma Purana quoted by Baladeva:

anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha

aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah sanatanah

"The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body,

is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is

unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme."

Indeed, this verse above and the verse below (which I also presented previously), sum up most of what I am trying to say. As the verse below says, by singing the glories of Govinda a man will gain his appropriate "form (rupa), greatness, ornaments, etc".

yad-bhava-bhavita-dhiyo manujas tathaiva

samprapya rupa-mahimasana-yana-bhusah

suktair yam eva nigama-prathitaih stuvanti

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

I adore the same Govinda, the primeval Lord, in whose praise men, who are imbued with devotion, sing the mantra-suktas told by the Vedas, by gaining their appropriate beauty, greatness, thrones, conveyances and ornaments.

In regard to your statement that madhurya-rasa is the highest rasa and the highest goal of life for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, I agree, totally. But not everyone who comes under the banner of Sri Chaitanya's sankirtan movement will feel inclined to enter into madhurya-rasa. Thus, Sanatan Goswami has described the glories of Sakhya-rasa in Brhadbhagavatamrtam, etc..

Anonymous guest said:

It appears that Shiva is arguing with Raga about the latter's document and the idea that only manjari-bhava can be taught. Well, this is also what the Acaryas say...

</blockquote>

You are wrong to say that the Acaryas say only manjari-bhava can be taught. Other things are to be taught, which are more important for the practitioners of Seva.

In fact my own Guru Maharaj, Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaj was extremely dismissive of people who take this "imitative gopi-bhava" approach to sadhana-bhakti. My Guru's main teaching is "trnad api sunicena, taror api sahisnuna". That is the general instruction, for everyone to follow. Discussions about manjari-bhava are not such a cheap thing that any tom, dick, or Haridas das should think it is his business to intrude upon.

One last thing, anonymous critic. Can you please give yourself some sort of name, so we can identify you.

muralidhar_das · April 15, 2005

Raga wrote:

Did you notice the account of Gopal Bhatta Goswami bestowing kama-gayatri and siddha-deha to Shrinivas, cited in the document I posted? I believe that's an important precedent.

Now, one may say that there isn't a pranali given there, just the siddha-deha of Gopal Bhatta and of his disciple, Shrinivas. However, consider this: That's all there was to the pranali at that time, since Gopal Bhatta is one of the ashta-manjaris and hence at the root of the pranali.

</blockquote>

I don't think any of the Gaudiya Math Acharyas would see this as particularly relevant to the main issue being discussed. We know that Prabhupad Srila Saraswati Thakur told Kunja Babu about his swarup-siddhi. There is a letter from Prabhupad Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur to Kunja Babu in which he says, "I am Nayananandana Manjari and you are Bimala Manjari". So none of our Gaudiya Math Acharyas are going to say that no Guru can tell a disciple what the disciple's siddha-swarup is.

And Raga, in this quote above you talk of Sree Gopal Bhatta Goswami "bestowing siddha-deha to Shrinivas". I can't see that in this story we find he was "giving" siddha-deha to Shrinivas. We might just as easily say that Gopal Bhatta Goswami was giving him knowledge so he could awaken from the sleep of mundane existence and realize his innate, awakened self.

The real issue at stake is that according to Jayakrishna das Babaji and his followers, all the "traditionalist" Gurus should tell the disciple the details of the "siddha-pranali". In the well known story of Madhusudana das Babaji, he didn't get told this by his Guru. Then when Madhusudana das Babaji couldn't find his Guru later on, after Jayakrishna das Babaji told him he needed to find out the details of the "siddha-pranali" in order to be taught raganuga-sadhana, Madhusudana das Babaji went to drown himself in Radha-kunda. He felt totally hopeless. But then the next thing happened. Srimate Radharani saved him from drowning and gave him the document he needed, a palm-leaf with the names of the siddha-gurus listed on it.

Previously, Raga, you said that you feel that this story shows that Srimate Radharani approved of the convention propagated by Jayakrishna das Babaji, that a person needed to have this document listing his siddha-pranali before a person was engaged in raganuga sadhana. But I believe this is just a meaning that you choose to infer from the story. Other readings of the story are also possible. And added to that is the fact that when Syamananda Prabhu found the anklet of Sri Radha, simply coming in contact with that anklet awakened manjari-bhava within him. When in fact he had been inititated by a sahkya-bhava Guru, Hridaya-Caitanya Prabhu.

What is more, none of the sages who saw Ramchandra and desired to be born as ladies in the next life so they could experience madhurya-bhava, none of those sages were initiated into any siddha-pranali tradition. And they became Gopis in their next lifetime. In fact, they didn't even get initiated with any Krishna-mantra. In all probability, the mantra they got initiated with by their guru was that mantra beginning with the words, "om bhu bhuvah swah tat savitur varenyam".

kailasa · April 15, 2005

"attained"

Soul is eternal. Spiriutual body - eternal. Relation with God - eternal. Soul it is YOU. You NOW has this relations, but it is cover maya. Eternal relations with God you transform in relations with maya. Maya it is too divine sakti.

Soul fall from spiritual world it is write SB and CC.

In highe sense soul not fall, because she is eternal relations. But for us more actually - falling soul. We fall and cover illusion.

Any way Lord not create soul in material world. Soul born in spiritual world. Krisna do not has ANY motive create soul in material world.

Maha Visnu not create soul, soul it is parts Krisna, then you has relation with Krisna.

Materialist think - "soul born in material world (or brahman - impersonalism) then he is go in spiritual world." It is foolisnes. Any way - spiritual world eternal or not? If spiritual world eternal then you stay in spiritual world eternally? You understand?

If you "attained" spiritual world - then you stay in spiritual world eternal? "Eternal" means - not begining, not end. You understand? NO BEGINING Understand?

You "attained" but NO BEGINING you stay in spiritual world ETERNAL You understand?

You relations with God too eternal. Relations not tomorow "be eternal", no, relations NOW eternal. Understand?

It is life spiritual world. Soul only cover, soul eternal, relations eternal. Then needs uttama guru, yours kanistha guru not know simply things.

kailasa · April 15, 2005

Soul fall from place where not time, then in sastra write -"beginless".

In spiritual world not material time. In what time soul fall? She fall from space where NOT TIME. Then sastra write - "beginlees".

In what moment soul come in material world? In ANY time, because spiritual world big more than ALL TIMES MATERIAL WORLD. Then - "beginless".

Soul come from place where not beginig and no end, then beginless.

You feel brahman boys? /images/graemlins/smile.gif "Brahma bhuta prasannatma" - with position brahman person serve Lord. In other sense it is materialism. They write "bhava" but not able understand simple things. Then needs learn spiritual science step by step, another way is useless. Pratistha /images/graemlins/smile.gif "gopi, bhava" - pratistha. All lilas in equal level, all rasas too. In santa rasa they see all lilas and they fell SAME filings as gopi or gopas. Spiritual world absolute.

Santa rasa reflect all rasas, they stay in all rasas really. Santa rasa it is not stupid matery. It is souls, great souls, all mistik powers, all spiritual powers. They see all lilas, they feel as all anothers devotees. it is spiritual world it is ABSOLUTE. No duality. Understand?

In spiritual world no envy.

But ANY concrete rasa has SPECIFIC relations with Lord, then all devotees HAPPY own specific relations with Krisna.

Yasoda happy is Krisna Her son. Gopis not has Krisna as son, but Yasoda - yes. First needs understand spiritual contecst unity. It is not good from envy speak - "this more good".

Gopis not has Krisna as husband. Krisna left from gopis any time. If you so "love" Krisna as you be gopi? You be wife Krisna and He is never left you. Sooo strong "love". /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Needs UNDERSTAND all SB first. Needs understand - Lord Brahma, Siva, Dhruva, Prithu Maharaja... All search $ and sex. $, sex and "madhurya" rasa. Prithu Maharaja? No, no, we madhurya rasa /images/graemlins/smile.gif))

Needs understand greatness Lord. Pure raganuga do not cultivate. Sadhana-raganuga it is vaidhi bhakti, it is real worsiping Laksmi Narayana.

If you gopis, then Krisna take yours. IF YOU REALLY GOPIS /images/graemlins/smile.gif)) Or you gopis and you catches Krisna? matajis catches Krisna? It is Kubja.

Gopis catches Krisna? It is matajis? We do not know WHAT likes Krisna, then some akts like crazy. Needs follow for acarya. Nobody do not so great as Prabhupada, Srila Prabhupada expansion Lord Caitanya. Needs simply follow. "All heart all reason".

muralidhar_das · April 15, 2005

Kailasa,

Is there an translation of Jaiva Dharma you can read in Russian? Please read Jaiva Dharma.

Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Support the Ashram

Join Groups

Top Downloads