Siddha-pranali: Request for Info

[kailasa]

I was initiated in ISKCON by a Prabhupada disciple in 1978.

 

Huh, it ias real? You disciple Srila Prabhupada?

[muralidhar_das]

quote:

<blockquote>

If the qualification for raganuga-bhakti is wanting the feelings of attraction to Krishna, and Rati is the feeling of attraction to Krishna, then are these not two different things? That is to say:

 

lobha = desire for rati = qualification to perform raganuga

rati = the end result of performing sadhana-bhakti

 

Perhaps I am mistaken, but as quoted that was what this seemed to be saying. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

alpa-medhasaH

</blockquote>

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati says some helpful things here:

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/prakrta_rsd.html

 

 

 

I feel the need to discriminate between Ruci and Rati. My understanding is that having ruci means having a "taste" for devotion, and that this taste will make us have some "lobha" or "yearning" ("greed") for Vraja-bhakti. Whereas Rati can only be felt by persons who have no desire at all for salvationism or materialism.

 

Also, I personally feel that the use of the word "greed" is an inadequate rendering of the word "lobha" referred to in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu and other texts written by the Goswamis and their successors. English equivalent words sometimes seem inappropriate and a quite different rendering is needed which differs from the dictionary "word for word" meanings.

 

Take a look at this statement below:

<blockquote>

tatra adhikari:

 

ragatmikaika-nistha ye vraja-vasi-janadayah

tesam bhavaptaye lubdho bhaved atradhikaravan

 

Those eligible for Raganuga Bhakti:

 

Those who have the feeling: "I want feelings of attraction for Krishna like Ragatmikaikanistha, the feelings felt by the Vrajabasis, the eternal residents of Vraja" - they are eligible to engage in Raganuga Bhakti.

 

Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.2.291

</blockquote>

 

This is a translation which my Bengali friend who lives at our house did, on the basis of Srila Sridhar Maharaj's edition of Bhaktirasamrtasindhu. Notice that he used the word "Ragatmikaikanistha". He couldn't find a good English rendering for this concept and instead repeated the Sanskrit.

[muralidhar_das]

May I take a moment to explain the problem I have with the use of the word "greed" in this context we have been discussing.

 

A person who is a "neophyte" is someone who is just coming out of the utter darkness of material life and is now approaching the twilight that exists before the dawn of pure realization of the Holy Name. We go from the stage of nama-aparadha (offensive chanting) to nama-abhasa (twilight), as is explained by Srila Haridas Thakur in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta. This is the process for beginners.

 

In this beginning stage a neophyte should meditate on the teachings of Mahaprabhu in Siksastakam, beginning with "ceto-darpana marjanam.. " and "trnad api sunicena". Through constant endeavour to attain a stage of chanting the Pure Name, a devotee can make progress quickly.

 

However, it is to be remembered that this neophyte still only has a "hazy" (at best) understanding of Radha-Krishna. Consequently, how can he have intense "greed" for something that he doesn't properly understand? He can have some taste for understanding Krishna-lila, since even demons such as Putana are supposed to have felt some taste for Krishna's beauty when Krishna was in front of them. Taste can appear in the hearts of even very impure persons. But loving attachment or "Rati" is something pure, which can only be felt by devotees who have become pure. Only devotees who have progressed through the twilight zone and entered into the illuminated state of pure devotion can experience Rati.

 

Having realized the pure state of devotion, a devotee will realize the meaning of other statements in Siksastakam, such as "ayi Nanda-tanuja"

 

 

[krsna]

Bhaktivinoda Thakure writes about this in Jaiva Dharma chapter 21:

 

 

Babaji: However, before I describe raganuga-bhakti, I shall first describe the nature of ragatmika-bhakti.

 

Vrajanatha: Please tell what the word 'raga' means. I wish to understand that first.

 

Babaji: Materialists fall in love with the objects of the material senses. This love may be called 'raga'. In this way the eyes become excited when they see beauty and other attractive qualities. In this way one is attracted to the material sense objects and the mind develops 'raga' or love for them.

 

When that love (raga) is placed in Lord Krishna as its only object, that is called 'raga-bhakti'. Srila Rupa Gosvami explains that when love is focused on a single object of desire, that is called 'raga'. When this kind of love exists in devotional service, then the devotional service is called 'ragatmika-bhakti'.

 

In brief, when there is a love-filled thirst to attain Lord Krishna, that is called ragatmika-bhakti. As long as this raga has not manifested itself, one is enjoined to follow vidhi-bhakti, following the rules and regulations of scripture. Awe, fear and faith are the three aspects of vaidhi-bhakti. An intense desire to meet Lord Krishna and associate with Him in His pastimes is the main feature of ragatamika-bhakti.

 

Vrajanatha: Who is qualified to perform raga-bhakti?

 

Babaji: A person whose faith rests in the rules of the scriptures is qualified to engage in vaidhi-bhakti. A person whose faith rests in an intense desire to attain Lord Krishna is qualified to engage in ragatmika-bhakti. Manifested according to their different rasas (relationships with Lord Krishna), Lord Krishna's personal associates in the spiritual world of Vraja with strong faith engage in ragatmika-bhakti.

 

A person who has a strong desire to love Lord Krishna as the residents of Vraja in the spiritual world do, is qualified to engage in raganuga bhakti.

 

Vrajanatha: What are the qualities of this strong desire?

 

Babaji: One quality is that when one hears about the sweetness of the love and other emotions manifested by the residents of Vraja in the spiritual world, one yearns to go there. When a person qualified to engage in vaidhi-bhakti hears the descriptions of Lord Krishna, he calmly things about these descriptions, using his intelligence, logic, and the evidence of scripture.

 

However, when a person following the path of raganuga-bhakti hears these descriptions, he does not carefully consider them in terms of intelligence, logic and scripture. Instead he is overcome with the desire to love Krishna as the residents of Vraja do.

 

Vrajanatha: What are the activities of raganuga-bhakti?

 

Babaji: The devotee engaged in raganuga-bhakti yearns to become one of the residents of Vraja in the spiritual world and there serve Lord Krishna directly. He always thinks of that desire. He likes to talk with other devotees about the pastimes of his beloved Krishna. He resides in Vraja, either with his external body, or within his thoughts.

 

Yearning to attain the spiritual love that they possess, he becomes a follower of the people of Vraja. He always serves the Lord in two ways. Externally he performs sadhana-bhakti. Internally he thinks of his original spiritual form and in that form he serves the Lord.

 

Vrajanatha: What is the connection between raganuga-bhakti and the different limbs of vaidhi-bhakti?

 

Babaji: A person engaged in raganuga-bhakti also performs the different activities of sadhana-bhakti, such as hearing and chanting the glories of the Lord. However, within his heart he is a follower of the people of Vraja. In this way he tastes the nectar of always serving the Lord. At the same time he serves in this way within his heart, he engages in the activities of sadhana-bhakti with his external body.

 

Vrajanatha: How is raganuga-bhakti glorious?

 

Babaji: By engaging in raganuga-bhakti one quickly attains what takes a long time to attain by performing sadhana-bhakti. Vaidhi-bhakti is weak, but raganuga-bhakti is both independent and very powerful. By following in the footsteps of the people of Vraja, one attains raga.

 

That raga naturally pushes one to engage in the devotional activities of hearing, chanting and remembering the Lord's glories, serving His lotus feet, bowing down before Him, and surrendering everything to Him. When the heart is free of the three material modes, one naturally desires to follow in the footsteps of the people of Vraja. Therefore the attraction to raganuga-bhakti, or the intense desire to attain raganuga-bhakti is the inspiration that pushes one to true spiritual life. As there are many different kinds of ragatmika-bhakti, so there are also many different kinds of raganuga-bhakti.

 

 

 

Jiva Goswami continues from Bhakti Sandarbha:

 

 

7 When one has already attained passionate love for the Lord, love like a great Ganges river of devotion in which the waves are the various activities of devotional service, and when the activities of devotional service are no longer a means of attaining something that is not already attained, his devotion is called raganuga bhakti.

 

8 From the passionate love (raga) thus described, attraction (ruci) is born. Attraction (ruci) is not manifested of its own accord. It comes from love (raga). When the faint reflection of the light shining from the nectar moon of this passionate love (raga) shines in the crystal jewel of the heart, then attraction (ruci) is born by the action of passionate love (raga). When attraction (ruci) thus follows (anuga) passionate love (raga), the condition is known as raganuga bhakti.

 

9 Some call this stage of devotional service avihita bhakti, for it is impelled by attraction alone and is not bound to follow rules and regulations. This explanation should not be accepted. It is not possible for a person completely aloof from all rules and regulations to engage in devotional service.

 

10 In Srimad Bhagavatam (2.1.7) it is said:

 

"O King Pariksit, mainly the topmost transcendentalists, who are above the regulative principles and restrictions , take pleasure in describing the glories of the Lord."

 

11 Vaidhi bhakti. which is dependent on following rules and regulations, is weak, but raganuga bhakti, which is independent of rules and regulations, is powerful. By engaging in raganuga bhakti one comes to dislike anything that has no relation to devotional service. This is explained in the Third Canto, where, describing attraction to the descriptions of the Lord, Sri Vidura says (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.13):

 

12 "For one who is anxious to engage constantly in hearing such topics, krsna-katha gradually increases his indifference towards all other things. Such constant remembrance of the lotus feet of Lord Krsna by the devotee who has achieved transcendental bliss vanquishes all his miseries without delay."

 

13 Ruci means when the mind is in the grip of hearing the previous described topics of the Lord. Because raganuga bhakti is not dependent on rules and regulations, the servitorship (dasya) and friendship (sakhya) for the Lord manifested in raganuga bhakti are different from the servitorship and friendship for the Lord manifested in vaidhi bhakti.

 

14 In Srimad Bhagavatam (7.5.24) it is said:

 

"These nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krsna through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge."

 

15 Great importance is not given to the stages of development manifested in raganuga bhakti. However, importance is given to the stages of development in ragatmika bhakti. In ragatmika bhakti comes the manifestation of ruci. This is described in the following words (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.8.35):

 

16 "The Supreme Personality of Godhead is absolutely the most dear one for all living beings because He is everyone's well-wisher and Lord. He is the Supreme Soul situated in everyone's heart. Therefore I will now pay the price of complete surrender, and thus purchasing the Lord I will enjoy with Him just like Laksmi-devi."

 

17 Thinking of the Supreme Personality of Godhead as her friend and well-wisher, in this verse Pingala desires to attain Him as her husband. That is the meaning here.

 

18 In the Chandoga-parisista it is said:

 

"Following a vow of chanting caru-mantras, a girl attains oneness with her desired husband."

 

The "oneness" mentioned here is artificial, not real. As a girl may thus purchase an ordinary husband, in the same way, by full self-surrender, one may purchase the Supreme Personality of Godhead as one's husband and enjoy with Him as Laksmi-devi enjoys with her handsome husband. In this way is shown Pingala's attraction (ruci) to the Lord.

 

 

Anuccheda 311

 

1 The activities of raganuga bhakti are described in these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.8.40):

 

"I am now completely satisfied and I have full faith in the Lord's mercy. Therefore I will maintain myself with whatever comes of its own accord. I shall enjoy life with only the Lord, because He is the real source of love and happiness."

 

2 This verse means, "In my mind (atmana) I will enjoy (viharami) with Him (amuna), my affection lover". The mind is mentioned here because the mind is most important in the path of attraction (ruci) to the Lord. Because she did not have the spiritual form of a beloved of the Lord, Pingala engaged her mind in meditating on the Lord in this way. Deity worship tends to remove the boldness (that is a natural part of amorous pastimes). Therefore Deity worship naturally leads to vatsalya rasa, where one is a parent or other guardian of the Lord. This verse was spoken by Sri Pingala.

 

Anuccheda 312

 

1 In this way raganuga bhakti where the devotee has the idea of becoming one of the Lord's beloveds is shown. An example of this is seen in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, in the story of the girl Kamakala. Examples of ruci-bhakti where the devotee has the idea of becoming a servant of the Lord or associating with Him in the other rasa are seen in other places in the scriptures. An example of a servant is given in the following words of Sri Prahlada (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.24):

 

"My dear Lord, now I have complete experience concerning the worldly opulence, mystic power, longevity and other material pleasures enjoyed by all living entities, from Lord Brahma down to the ant. As powerful time, You destroy them all. Therefore, because of my experience, I do not wish to possess them. My dear Lord, I request You to place me in touch with Your pure devotee and let me serve him as a sincere servant."

 

2 In Sri Narada-pancaratra a devotee says:

 

"O master of the universes, when, with a graceful and deep voice will you order me, "Take a camara in your hand and fan Me'."

 

3-4 In the Skanda Purana and in the Sanat-kumara-samhita, in the story of King Prabhakara, it is said:

 

"Although he was sonless, the king did not desire a son. He considered that his condition was already ordained by his part karma. Instead, he wished that Lord Vasudeva, the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is glorified by all the Upanisads and who is the Supersoul in everyone's heart, would become his son. He wanted to crown the Supreme Lord as the next king and give the kingdom to Him. He did not wish for a son that would not be the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself."

 

5 Finally the Supreme Personality of Godhead appeared before the king and said, "I will become your son."

 

6 In the Narayana-vyuha-stava it is said:

 

"I offer my respectful obeisances to they who always meditate on Lord Hari as their husband, son, friend, brother, father, or mother."

 

7 In this verse the words husband, son, friend, and brother refer to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the object of meditation and the words father and mother refer to the devotee who is meditating on the Lord. The affix "vat" (like) here means that the devotee does not directly become the Lord's mother, but rather becomes a follower of the Lord's mother. The same is true for the Lord's father.

 

To think otherwise is to accept the impersonalists' error of ahangrahopasana (thinking oneself the object of worship). Here the word "dhyayant" (they meditate) confirms the previous explanation of the importance of the mind in raganuga bhakti. The word "api" (even) here means "How exalted are they who serve the Lord in perfect raganuga bhakti?"

 

8 Here someone may object: The Purva-mimamsa affirms, "Religion means following the orders of scripture", and the Brahma-yamala also affirms, "Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorised Vedic literatures like the Upanisads, Puranas, Narada-pancaratra, etc., is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."* Therefore to ignore the orders of the Sruti-sastra and other scriptures is a great fault.

 

9 The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself affirms:

"The Sruti and Smrti sastras are My commands. Therefore one who disobeys the scripture disobeys Me. Such a person hates Me. He may claim to be devoted to Me, but in truth he is not."

 

10 This verse shows that disobedience to the duties and prohibitions of the Sruti-sastra and other scriptures makes one ineligible to be a Vaisnava. How, then can one attain perfection by following a kind of devotional service (ragatmika bhakti) that ignores these rules and regulations?

 

If this is said, then the following reply is given: Spiritual potency is present in the Lord's holy name, qualities and all else that is in relation to Him. It is not present in the rules of ordinary religion. In many places the scriptures affirm that one attains the result of devotional service without reference to impersonal speculation or any other method.

 

The rules of the scriptures do not have power to act by themselves, without reference of a person. They have power because they have come from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore they who, having no knowledge of attraction (ruci) to the Lord, raise these objections, have no real understanding of the activities of ragatmika bhakti.

[krsna]

Tuesday, April 12, 2005

 

All that jazz

 

At another forum (here) there was a discussion I took part in prompted by someone asking about siddha-pranali.

 

That led to a person named Madhava or Madhavananda Das to respond. Madhava as he is known on the discussion forum he owns and runs at ., teaches to all who will lend an ear that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and his lineage of Gaudiya Vaisnavas are in-authentic and not teaching the pure traditional theology. He promotes his own Guru named Ananta Das Babaji as one of the authentic representatives of the teachings of Sri Caitanya and the 6 goswamis of Vrndavan.

 

Madhava and some of the regulars on his forum like to teach that they are teaching the real Gaudiya teachings as opposed to ISKCON and the various Gaudiya Math and ISKCON offshoots. Earlier I took him to task and gave a point by point refutation of some of the statements and beliefs he made on his forum which I felt were not authentic and supported by the original tradition.

 

Here is a link to that refutation:

 

Refutation of the teachings found at .

 

So like I was saying; Madhava just gave a reply to someone on another forum who asked about siddha-pranali, this is what the questioner wrote:

 

 

 

I am doing some personal research and would like some information on "siddha-pranali." What is it, and what are its origins? In what texts of the Gaudiya Vaishnavas is it first mentioned?

 

I would be very happy for explicit references, i.e. book title, chapter, and verse number if possible.

 

 

And then Madhava replied, Madhava is a promoter of siddha-pranali as being an essential component of the authentic traditional Gaudiya theology, which ISKCON and the Gaudiya Maths do not practice. Here is what Madhava wrote:

 

 

You may find this document (PDF) informative.

 

 

That link is a PDF dissertation on siddha-pranali written by Madhava.

 

I read it and responded thusly:

 

 

At the beginning of your PDF you state that:

 

"siddha pranali consists of a guru pranali, a channel of gurus in their siddha forms (manjari swarupa)."

 

Why only a channel of gurus in their manjari swarupa?

 

According to Gaudiya tattva; raganuga and ragatmika devotees will be naturally attracted to one of a variety of rasas.

 

From CC Madhya Lila

 

 

 

 

seva sadhaka-rupena

siddha-rupena catra hi

tad-bhava-lipsuna karya

vraja-lokanusaratah

 

SYNONYMS

 

seva -- service; sadhaka-rupena -- with the external body as a devotee practicing regulative devotional service; siddha-rupena -- with a body suitable for eternal, self-realized service; ca -- also; atra -- in this connection; hi -- certainly; tat -- of that; bhava -- the mood; lipsuna -- desiring to obtain; karya -- to be executed; vraja-loka -- of a particular servant of Krsna in Vrndavana; anusaratah -- by following in the footsteps.

 

TRANSLATION

 

'The advanced devotee who is inclined to spontaneous loving service should follow the activities of a particular associate of Krsna's in Vrndavana. He should execute service externally as a regulative devotee as well as internally from his self-realized position. Thus he should perform devotional service both externally and internally.'

 

 

nijabhista krsna-prestha pacheta' lagiya

nirantara seva kare antarmana hana

 

SYNONYMS

 

nija-abhista -- one's own choice; krsna-prestha -- the servitor of Krsna; pacheta' lagiya -- following; nirantara -- twenty-four hours a day; seva -- service; kare -- executes; antarmana -- within the mind; hana -- being.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Actually the inhabitants of Vrndavana are very dear to Krsna. If one wants to engage in spontaneous loving service, he must follow the inhabitants of Vrndavana and constantly engage in devotional service within his mind.

 

 

krsnam smaran janam casya

prestham nija-samihitam

tat-tat-katha-ratas casau

kuryad vasam vraje sada

 

SYNONYMS

 

krsnam -- Lord Krsna; smaran -- thinking of; janam -- a devotee; ca -- and; asya -- of His; prestham -- very dear; nija-samihitam -- chosen by oneself; tat-tat-katha -- to those respective topics; ratah -- attached; ca -- and; asau -- that; kuryat -- should do; vasam -- living; vraje -- in Vrndavana; sada -- always.

 

TRANSLATION

 

'The devotee should always think of Krsna within himself and should choose a very dear devotee who is a servitor of Krsna in Vrndavana. One should constantly engage in topics about that servitor and his loving relationship with Krsna, and one should live in Vrndavana. If one is physically unable to go to Vrndavana, he should mentally live there.'

 

 

dasa-sakha-pitradi-preyasira gana

raga-marge nija-nija-bhavera ganana

 

SYNONYMS

 

dasa -- servants; sakha -- friends; pitr-adi -- parents; preyasira gana -- conjugal lovers; raga-marge -- on the path of spontaneous loving service; nija-nija -- of one's own choice; bhavera -- of the ecstasy; ganana -- counting.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Krsna has many types of devotees -- some are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. Devotees who are situated in one of these attitudes of spontaneous love according to their choice are considered to be on the path of spontaneous loving service.

 

ei panca sthayi bhava haya panca 'rasa'

ye-rase bhakta 'sukhi', krsna haya 'vasa'

 

ei panca -- these five kinds of transcendental mellows; sthayi bhava -- permanent ecstatic moods; haya -- become; panca rasa -- five kinds of transcendental mellows; ye-rase -- in a particular mellow; bhakta sukhi -- a devotee becomes happy; krsna -- Lord Krsna; haya -- becomes; vasa -- under the control.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"These five transcendental mellows exist permanently. The devotee may be attracted to one of these mellows, and thus he becomes happy. Krsna also becomes inclined toward such a devotee and comes under his control.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the original Gaudiya teachings on raganuga bhakti we find no mention of siddha pranali, nor do we find an exclusivity of raganuga in the original Gaudiya tattva given to manjari bhava.

 

The teachings on Raganuga given above by Sri Caitanya Himself are teaching a different ideology then the siddha pranali school of raganuga which you promote. Mahaprabhu mentions the various rasas available to the sadhaka in the lives of the residents of Vraja, and how a person will naturally be attracted to one of those rasas.

 

 

 

 

 

CC Madhya 22.148: "My dear Sanatana, I have now in detail described devotional service according to the regulative principles. Now hear from Me about spontaneous devotional service and its characteristics.

 

CC Madhya 22.149: "The original inhabitants of Vrndavana are attached to Krsna spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called ragatmika bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vrndavana, his devotional service is called raganuga bhakti.

 

CC Madhya 22.150: "'When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his natural inclination to love is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord. That is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called ragatmika, or spontaneous devotional service.'

 

CC Madhya 22.151: "The primary characteristic of spontaneous love is deep attachment for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absorption in thought of Him is a marginal characteristic.

 

CC Madhya 22.152: "Thus devotional service which consists of raga [deep attachment] is called ragatmika, spontaneous loving service. If a devotee covets such a position, he is considered to be most fortunate.

 

CC Madhya 22.153: "If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vrndavana out of such transcendental covetousness, he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of sastra. That is the way of spontaneous love.

 

CC Madhya 22.154: "'Devotional service in spontaneous love is vividly expressed and manifested by the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Devotional service that accords with their devotional service is called raganuga bhakti, or devotional service following in the wake of spontaneous loving service.'

 

CC Madhya 22.155: "'When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I have to call into question the promotion of a manjari bhava centric ideology as being authentic Gaudiya tattva.

 

For instance you quote Baladeva Vidhyabhusana in your PDF:

 

 

This bhakti is being promulagated from the eternal devotees of Sri Hari down to the present day practicing devotees like the current of the Mandakini river.Bhakti is always present among the nitya parshadas in the nitya dhama flowing to this world through the bhakti pranali like the stream of the Mandakini.

 

 

You then make a comment immediately following the above:

 

"The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari swarupa specifically reserved for him..."

 

This is the problem. What your style of teaching does is slant Gaudiya tattva towards trying to convince everyone that the real authentic teachings are all about attaining your manjari swarupa, which is definitely not the teaching of Sri Caitanya nor any of the 6 Goswamis. Their method of teaching raganuga bhakti is cited above. They preached that a person will naturally awaken a desire to follow in the footsteps of a nitya parshada resident of the nitya dhama. Be they gopi, gopa, parent, servant, etc.

 

Nowhere in any of the teachings of the 6 Goswamis nor Mahaprabhu himself do we find raganuga being taught as being exclusively about attaining a manjari swarupa in manjari bhava. But this is exactly how those who teach about siddha pranali teach, and even those who do not teach about siddha pranali also sometimes preach like that.

 

Your dissertation only mentions siddha pranali in conjunction with manjari bhava. Is that appropriate?

 

A bhakta will naturally be attracted towards a specific bhava and mood of service. It is inherent within the bhakta. Everyone is different. If you teach that everyone should try and realize their manjari swarupa, then that is not the authentic teachings.

 

From Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu (1.2.295):

 

 

 

 

When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra or on logic and argument.

 

 

 

 

Some people have stated that if a devotee is not in manjari bhava or trying to attain to manjari bhava then he is not a Rupanuga.

 

Since our sampradaya is known as the Rupanuga sampradaya, this kind of teaching is coercing everyone into trying to become manjaris.

 

But Rupa Goswami in the above and elswhere does not teach that. A real rupanuga is someone who teaches what Rupa Goswami teaches, not that he or she needs to try and be in his rasa or imitate his rasa.

 

If you tell your students that the best thing they can be is a manjari, then of course they will all try and see themselves and view their relationship with Radha Krishna in that mentality.

 

They will naturally want to be a Rupanuga, and they will naturally want to attain the highest position for themselves. That is not raganuga. As cited above; a persons eternal bhava, his eternal rasa with Radha Krishna, will naturally manifest. If you teach people that only manjari bhava is considered the authentic teachings of Sri Caitanya and his followers, then by that teaching you create a disturbance in their natural development of their eternal mood. It is called spontaneous because it arises from a natural desire. If that desire is not natural, if it is the product of coercive teachings to accept only one bhava as being the authentic teachings, then that is apasiddhanta and should be rejected.

 

That is why these topics are not to be presented in a manjari bhava centric fashion.

 

Everyone is different. Everyone is supposed to develop their relationship with Radha Krishna naturally. They will naturally be attracted to a specific Bhava and Rasa.

 

If you interfere with that process by teaching everyone that they are supposed to be manjaris, only manjaris are Rupanugas, manjaris, manjaris, manjaris. Then you do a disservice and are not qualified to teach.

 

From the Caitanya Siksamrta by Bhaktivinoda Thakura:

 

 

 

 

 

Among the angas of bhakti mentioned in vaidhi bhakti such as kirtana , those which are favorable for his service are accepted by the practitioner of raganuga. Those aspiring for dasya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Patraka and other servants; those desirous of sakhya rasa copy the mood and gestures of Subala and other friends; those desirous of parental rasa copy the mood and gestures of Yasoda and other elders; and those desirous of madhura rasa copy the mood, service and gestures of the Vraja gopis.

 

...There are two types of taste of greed: temporary and natural. Sometimes devotees hear about the qualities of Nanda or Subala, derive great bliss and sometimes show similar sentiments, but this bliss and the show of sentiments are short-lived. This is called temporary greed. There is no use in such a show.

 

It is necessary for the guru to carefully examine which rasa -dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhura-gives natural greed. Detecting ones natural sentiment, the guru will give teachings according to that mood.

 

If this is not done, then the instructed mood will not be permanent, due to the unsuitability to the disciple.

 

It should be noted that not all seekers will be qualified for madhurya rasa.

 

If a guru finds it impossible for him to decide the rasa of the disciple, he will honestly admit his inability to the disciple and direct him to approach a suitable guru. The disciple has no alternative but to take shelter of the lotus feet of the bona fide guru.

 

 

At the beginning of your dissertation you wrote:

 

 

This quest for a siddha-identity in the land of Vraja is at the core of raganuga-sadhana. The concepts of raganuga and ragatmika have been thoroughly discussed elsewhere; there is no need to delve further into that in this context. In essence, the sadhaka is to one day become akin to the associates of Sri Radha and Krishna, the ragatmika-jana.

 

Given that the sadhaka is yet to attain siddhi and subsequently a parshada-deha (body of an associate) in Vraja, one may be perplexed over whether it is possible to contemplate on a siddha-deha prior to the attainment of siddhi. The commentators on the aforementioned verse by Sri Rupa all state with a single voice:

 

siddha-rupena antas-cintitabhishta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | Sri Jiva & Sri Visvanatha

 

In the siddha-form means in an internally conceived, desired body suitable for His service.

 

siddha-rupena manas-cintita-svabhishta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena| Sri Mukunda

 

In the siddha-form means in a mentally conceived, desired body suitable for His service.

 

Hence, at the time of sadhana,one is to contemplate on a suitable, desired siddha-deha in his mind. However, how is one to acquire information of that which is beyond his sense

perception and intellectual abilities?

 

The traditional answer should satisfy an audience of

practicing Vaishnavas:

 

tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam.

 

Approach a guru to learn of the highest welfare for the soul. As Sri Jivapada has explained from Bhakti-sandarbha 312:

 

kecid ashtadasakshara-dhyanam go-dohana-samaya-vamsi-vadya-samakrishta-tattat-sarvamayatvena bhavayanti | yatha caike tadrisam upasanam sakshad vrajajana-viseshayaiva mahyam sri-guru-caranair mad-abhishta-visesha-siddhy-artham upadishtam bhavayami ||

 

"Some, while remembering the eighteen-syllable mantra, meditate on the pastimes of tending cows and playing flute, becoming attracted and absorbed in them. In such upasana (worship), in order to attain my specifically desired perfection, I should meditate on that very form of a resident of Vraja my revered guru has instructed me in.

 

 

Your translation of that verse from the Bhakti Sandarbha makes an implication which makes no sense in light of the previous verses you quote. The previous quotes suggest that the form to be conceived of will be based on the person's desire. You then quote Jiva Goswami implying that the guru will instruct the sadhaka on the form he will conceive of. Which is the basic idea you try and get across about guru-pranali in your PDF.

 

Another translation of the same verse I found on the web differs from your own:

 

"Some devotees chant the eighteen-syllable mantra and meditate on Lord Krsna surrounded by all His associates attracted by the music of His flute at the time for milking the cows. Other devotees think in this way: "I chant this mantra that my spiritual master has given me so that I may attain my desire and become one of the people of Vraja."

 

That translation is in keeping with the previous verses you cite which leaves the form that the sadhaka conceives of, up to his or her natural attraction, and then the guru can give relevant instructions based on the natural desire of the sadhaka. I quoted a verse from Caitanya Siksamrta to that effect earlier. And in fact this is what we find in from Sri Caitanya and from Sri Rupa:

 

From Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu and the CC

 

 

 

When a devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vrndavana -- in the mellows of santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya -- he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness is awakened, one's intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of sastra or on logic and argument.

 

 

Later in your dissertation you confirm this by quoting from Jiva Goswami:

 

 

tatra bhUta-zuddhir nijAbhilaSita-bhagavat-sevopayika-tat-pArSada-dehabhAvanA-

paryantaiva tat-sevaika-puruSArthibhiH kAryA nijanukulyat | evaM

yatra yatrAtmano nijAbhISTa-devatA-rUpatvena cintanaM vidhIyate tatra tatraiva

pArSadatve grahaNaM bhAvyam ||

Bhakti-sandarbha 286

 

“Thereupon one purifies his existence by contemplating on his own desired bhagavat-sevA (service to the Lord) and pArSada-deha (associate-form) suitable for such service; thus one engages in the desired service for his own auspiciousness. Thus, wherever one is, he should engage in meditating on the form of his own desired devata and in the future attain the status of an associate of His.â€

 

 

So a bhakta will naturally be attracted to a specific type of relationship with Krishna, the guru does not reveal that. The guru gives instructions to help the sadhaka in his mediation.

 

Then you make another comment:

 

 

The mercy and revelations of Bhagavan and His parsadas descend to this world through the medium of guru-pranali

 

 

Then you quote the following verse from Baladeva Vidyabhusana to back up your contention:

 

 

This bhakti is being promulagated from the eternal devotees of Sri Hari down to the present day practicing devotees like the current of the Mandakini river. Bhakti is always present among the nitya parshadas in the nitya dhama flowing to this world through the bhakti pranali like the stream of the Mandakini.

 

 

I have to disagree with you on the use of that verse to support your premise. The guru-pranali concept you are promoting is not the same thing as the bhakti-pranali concept Sri Baladeva was writing about. He writes bhakti is:

 

"flowing to this world through the bhakti pranali"

 

The guru-pranali you promote teaches that specific persons are in an unbroken chain or pranali or succession of gurus who pass on a specific teaching i.e giving out your manjari swarupa etc. Sri Baladeva was writing about bhakti in general, flowing through the succession of "practicing devotees". He makes no reference to a specific type of bhakti practice, nor to a specific type of guru.

 

You then add this immediately following the Sri Baladeva quote:

 

 

The disciple is thus introduced to a manjari swarupa specifically reserved for him and is blessed with allegiance to the siddha-pranali corresponding to the channel of his gurus

 

 

So you take a verse from Sri Baladeva that has nothing at all to do with the concept of guru-pranali nor manjari swarupas, and then attempt to use that verse to validate your ideas.

 

You also correctly write about Lobha, yearning or greed, as being the sole qualification for the sadhaka to be able to engage in raganuga bhakti, which you equate with lila smaranam. Not all lobha is real lobha ie. based on the desire to be with Krishna.

 

Prematurely a person can think that his desire for elevation to Goloka is synonymous with lobha and ruci. That is not necessarily real lobha, it may be temporary lobha based on the desire for liberation from suffering or to enjoy more sense enjoyment. This is from the Raga Vartma Candrika:

 

 

Srila Rupa Goswami has personally given the following definition of lobha (sacred greed):

 

When the heart yearns for the sweetness of the moods of Krishna and His eternal associates in Vraja, and one is not prompted by scriptural injunctions or logical arguments, then that is the definition of sacred greed.

 

If one thinks "let such greed arise in me also", after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Krishna of His associates the gopis in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments.

 

If such impetuses are there [scriptural injunctions and logical arguments e.g desire for elevation], then it cannot be justly called lobha. This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether he is qualified for the path of raganuga bhakti or not.

 

Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him.

 

 

So Sri Rupa is saying real lobha is not inspired by the desire to attain liberation, to want what one is supposed to want based on the instructions of sastras and sadhus. Real lobha is simply the actual desire devoid of any other motivation other then wanting to be in a relationship with Radha and Krishna following in the mood of their liberated devotees.

 

Visvanath continues:

 

 

There are two causes for the appearance of greed:

 

The mercy of God or the mercy of another anuragi devotee.

 

There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:

 

Praktana and adhunika. Praktana means mercy bestowed by a raganuga in a previous life, and adhunika is mercy bestowed in the present birth.

 

The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a raganuga guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.

 

It is said (in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu): "The only causes of the appearance of greed is the mercy of Krishna or His devotee. Therefore some call the path of raganuga bhakti pusti marga (the path of mercy).

 

 

You then also quote from the Raga Vartma Candrika to back up your point:

 

 

When the eye is smeared with medicinal ointment, it's ability of reception becomes more and more refined, and accordingly it is able to perceive more and more subtle objects; similarly according to the degree of the mind's having become purified by hearing and chanting of My purifying pastimes, all the subtle truths of reality become manifest in the heart of the sadhaka.

 

 

There is a verse right after that one which you did not see fit to quote:

 

 

Uddhava says in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.29.6: Krishna reveals Himself through the acarya or through the agency of the caitya guru. Thus some devotee attains knowledge about the moods of Krishna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practise of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts.

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the response

 

What I was questioning was whether or not it is "rati" that one must have as a prerequisite for practicing raganuga-bhakti. Clearly, one must be purified before having rati - on this point I agree with you. But where is it said that one must have "rati" to practice raganuga?

 

thanks,

 

alpa-medhasaH

 

[Guest guest]

"Rascal replied:

 

Why should it be written in the Goswamis works when it was adequately dealt with by Gopalguru and Dhyanacandra Goswamis, Sri Narottam and Sri Vishwanath etc?"

 

I wonder why Gaurasundara is suddenly taking this position, when previously his position (and that of his friends at Gaudiya Discussions.com) is that the orthodox doctrine is what comes from the writings of the Six Gosvamis.

 

alpa-medhasaH

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

http://vnn.org/world/WD9905/WD05-3797.html

Sri Tinkadi Gosvami (Sri Kisori-Kisorananda Baba) was born in 1906 in Manoharapur, a village in district Medinipur of West Bengal. His father was Sri Harimohana Gosvami and mother Srimati Suradhuni Devi. The family had a large number of ancestral disciples. The number of Harimohana Gosvami's own disciples also was not small. The income from donations made by disciples was plentiful. Therefore Tinkadi Gosvami was brought up in luxury. He he did not have much interest in studies. So his father stopped his education and began to introduce him to his disciples so that he might adopt gurugiri (the profession of guru) as his profession. He also married him to a girl named Sitalasundari, from whom he had a son.

 

Sri Tinkadi Gosvami lived luxuriously. He wore spotlessly white clothes made of the finest linen and smoked hukka. The long tube of the hukka with a silver mouth-piece was always attached to his mouth. The smoke of the sweet-scented tobacco, specially got from Visnupur, was seen curling round him. He went to the homes of the disciples on palanquin. The hukka and a Brahman cook went with him. The cook followed the palanquin on foot.

 

...

his wife died. then:

...

 

After pilgrimage, instead of returning home, he again went to Manohara Dasa Baba in Govardhana and asked permission to live in Vrndavana. Baba again said, "Gosain! Even now the time has not come for your living in Vrndavana. Go home and marry. You still have much karma to do. When the time comes, Radharani will herself draw you to Vrndavana. You need not worry."

 

 

 

I am shocked that such people exist and are considered traditional Gaudiya Vaishnavas. This again makes me question just who is qualified to give siddha-pranali.

 

It also makes me wonder, yet again, why there are some who scoff at Bhaktsiddhanta Saraswati, but turn a blind eye to people like this one.

 

Also, I found it entertaining that it was said his father was a Gosvami. I thought "Gosvami" was a title given to renunciates, not householders. Why was his father using money from disciples to live such a lavish lifestyle?

 

 

 

[krsna]

This was my response:

 

Yes, it's like what I quoted, if someone is basing his so called raganuga bhakti on sciptural injunctions, or perceived scriptural injunctions i.e they should attempt to be manjaris, then that is not based on real Lobha and Ruci, it is based on trying to attain what they think they should be trying to attain instead of what they really desire based on their true inner nature.

 

Thats why not everyone is ready for Raganuga. There must first be ruci, or real feeings of attraction, and lobha or pure intense desire to be with Radha Krishna for the sake of being with them, not for the sake of attaining a higher type of existence, that is vaidhi bhakti.

 

As Jiva Goswami writes in Bhakti Sandarbha:

 

 

In the Gautamiya Tantra it is said:

 

"For they who are always fallen in love with the lotus feet of Lord Krsna there is no japa, no Deity worship, no meditation, and no rules."

 

When attraction (ruci) is not yet manifested even the best raganuga bhakti is considered to be mixed with vaidhi bhakti.

 

Even a devotee who has attraction (ruci) for the Lord may, in order to benefit the people of the world, engage in raganuga bhakti mixed with vaidhi bhakti. Therefore, in some situations it is appropriate to practice raganuga bhakti mixed with vaidhi bhakti.

 

 

Visvanatha states in Raga Vartma Candrika:

 

 

When one's devotion is prompted by orders received from the revealed scriptures, then it is called vaidhi bhakti. But when one is prompted simply by lobha, then it is called raganuga

 

 

If people prematurely think they have lobha or ruci based on the desire for elevation instead of emotional need, then they may prematurely give up vaidhi bhakti which is the process which will give rise to real lobha and real ruci.

 

Then another person made a comment:

 

 

Madhavendra Puri is a kalpa vriksa, He is not a manjari. Manjari is highest in Krishna lila because they do not desire for ANYTHING for themselves. Gopi bhava means - All for Krishna, nothing for me.

 

 

 

To which I responded:

 

No, that is incorrect. Madhurya rasa is the highest rasa because it is the sweetest rasa, the gopis are not the only ones in madhurya rasa. According to Rupa Goswami the priya narma sakhas, Krishna's closest gopa friends, are in both madhurya and sakhya. Manjaris are not "highest because they do not desire anything for themselves". All the residents of Goloka are on the same level of purity in devotion. Madhurya rasa is simply the sweetest rasa, the rasa with the most nectar to be experienced.

 

Another person then made a comment:

 

 

Having read the arguments above I have become curious. Who are you Guest (shiva)? I have read many articles on the Gaudiya Discussions site (madhava's forum) about "traditional" Gaudiya Vaisnavaism and became very confused. After reading your arguments here, I fully realise that Srila Bhaktisiddhata Prabhupada was right all along. Thank you!

 

 

 

Then a pro siddha pranali person commented:

 

 

I have stayed in a few Gaudiya Mathas and have gotten to know some very advanced devotees over the years. I was surprised when on two occasions that some of these devotees with decades experience in bhajan reveiled in confidence their Manjari names. These devotees are explemlary devotees and they explained their learned of their ekadasi bhava from their bhajana. Their realisations, they told me were confirmed by their Guru. They spoke of it once and once only . I have no reason to disbelieve them and leave their bhajan as it should be; a private matter between them, their guru and Radha-Krishna. I gave it no futher thought until now.

 

To say that siddhi pranali is not given in the GM is rubbish. I believe that the GM don't dicuss siddhi pranali in public even in a Gaudiya only setting, because the process will be and has been abused by dishonest people.

 

I'm sure there will be some people ready to scoff at what I have just written, but I accept what I was told by those advanced devottes.

 

Like I say siddhi pranali is there in the GM....

 

 

 

I replied:

 

I can point out to you vaisnavas in every Gaudiya sangha who take the position of being authorities on things they have in fact never even experienced. That doesn't make those people authorities simply because they attempt to act in that position, or say they have attained that position.

 

I can point out vaisnavas who have claimed and received worship as uttama adhikaris, yet later they leave the path of bhakti. I have seen vaisnavas who have for years and years claimed to be more or less the topmost experts at these topics in this thread, but who have recently claimed that they don't even have faith in the Gita or the Bhagavata, yet funnily enough still claim to be the expert on these raganuga topics.

 

Talk is cheap. Claims of being in manjari bhava are cheap. I can read the works of the vaisnava acaryas to a parrot until it memorizes all of the tattva on any given subject, what of it? What use is there in claiming to be an authority on a topic when even a parrot can do as well as you? Should I take the parrot as an authority? Should I take anyone as an authority simply because they can repeat what they have read? Or because they have some certificate from someone or some school that says I am officially God conscious?

 

All of you who claim to be experts on raganuga, what have you to show for it? Has Radha taken you into Her confidence? If not, then the truely sincere and truely honest person, will be humble and not attempt to act above his or here true position. If you were an actual expert on raganuga, then why hasn't God given you entrance as a confidant?

 

God is always right here, always with you, waiting for you to give up the dishonest egotism which keeps you from being able to be given confidential association. The honest attitude is: God is everywhere, yet does not treat me as a confidant, as a close friend. I must be making some error, some miscalculation. Some mistaken thought process is making my association undesirable for Radha Krishna.

 

That is the honest attitude, anything less and we push Radha Krishna away. 100% honesty with ourselves, 100% faith, sraddha, that we have to be somehow causing a problem. We have to be in the understanding that God is here with me, yet I am in some way causing this separation from meeting, from rasa. I exist to bring pleasure to God, and yet God will not even directly relate with me, even though God is always with me. I must be doing something wrong.

 

Sri Caitanya purposely left only the Siksastakam. This was his message to us to let us know that everything else is secondary, everything else is dependent on humility, otherwise you are a madman. Knowledge is useless unless a person is honest with himself, which will then in turn manifest as humility.

 

What good is it to be able to quote sastra about raganuga if you cannot see and understand and act in full awareness of the most basic level and truth of our existance?

 

A parrot can learn sastra, an atheist can became a great scholar of Rupa Goswami. What is really important is coming to terms with our own miscalculations about our moment to moment perception and understanding or reality.

 

Our faith in ourselves as being authorities on God, even though we are forcibly separated from the realm of the siddhas, forcibly separated from God's rasa association, is due to a lack of honesty with ourselves. True humility is nothing more then accepting and understanding reality with 100% honesty and clarity.

 

Do you really think God in all His glory and power and mercy cannot at any time simply walk right up to you? And then reveal Himself and enter your life as your closest personal friend? Do you really think that reality is dependent on anything other then your own ability to be non repulsive to God?

 

Do you really think God demands you to be anything other then what you are, minus the egotism, dishonesty, and self delusion?

 

No one needs to do anything to be with Radha Krishna. That life is the natural gift of God to all of us. What keeps us apart is ourselves. Not a lack of some kind of initiation, nor some kind of mantra, nor some kind of study. What keeps us apart is our own attempt to be God, instead of trying to make ourselves attractive to God.

 

God is in control. No amount of mantras, study, initiations, meditations, pilgrimages, nor anything else we do can force God to elevate us. We cannot control our destiny nor the destiny of anyone else. We cannot change anything in our environment, we have no real will power, no power to act, no power to do anything. We are puppets with the delusion of trying to be the puppetmaster, trying to be God.

 

There is only one controller, everyone else is controlled. This is absolute 100% honest truth. Starting from that point, always keeping that understanding in front of us, always seeing reality with full understanding of what is actually going on all around you, within even your own mind, always being in a state of 100% surrender to that absolute truism, always being in the mindset of 100% acceptance of God's absolute and complete control and direction over everything, at all times, at that stage of full and complete clarity, then Krishna will appear to you. Everywhere. Always. Through everyone, through everything, and most especially, through your own mind.

 

Krishna tells us when speaking to Uddhava:

 

 

My dear Uddhava, the Supreme Lord gives life to every living being and is situated within the heart along with the life air and primal sound vibration. The Lord can be perceived in His subtle form within the heart by one's mind, since the Lord controls the minds of everyone, even great demigods like Lord Siva. The Supreme Lord also assumes a gross form as the various sounds of the Vedas, composed of short and long vowels and consonants of different intonations.

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

 

According to My instructions, one should fix the mind on Me alone. If, however, one continues to see many different values and goals in life rather than seeing everything within Me, then although apparently awake, one is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream.

 

 

 

Then the pro siddha pranali person objected to what I had written:

 

 

Shiva you said: "No one needs to do anything to be with Radha Krishna. That life is the natural gift of God to all of us. What keeps us apart is ourselves. Not a lack of some kind of initiation, nor some kind of mantra, nor some kind of study. What keeps us apart is our own attempt to be God, instead of trying to make ourselves attractive to God."

 

This goes against all our teachings. Read the Gita. Are you saying that if you just sit down and do nothing then Krishna will reveal himself. No bhajans? No parikramas, No ekadasis? No Gurus? NO mantras? Mmmm.....

 

 

 

I replied:

 

Maybe I wasn't clear enough for you, I apologize. You don't need to do anything to be with Radha Krishna, you are always and will always be with Radha Krishna.

 

The problem is that you don't have the eyes to see what is everywhere, what is in you, what is manifesting your thoughts, your life, your friends, your everything. As Krishna said in the quote I provided, "It's all Me and nothing but Me".

 

That is the point I was trying to make. God is everywhere, all the time, your own consciousness is made up of two people yet you only perceive one. We live with God and everything we do is done with God, by God. But in our ignorant state we see duality, we see various causes and then blame the effects on those causes. You may read this and think I am writing this down, that I am creating this post. You may see the world as a place where everyone is acting out according to their will. That is ignorance.

 

In the Gita Krishna tells us:

 

 

The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature

 

This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kunti, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.

 

 

 

God is doing everything. God is actually in control of everything you think, see, hear, smell and feel. All you experience, from listening to the mind, to reading this post, to anything else, everything is going on by God's will and direction. When we understand and try to see reality in this way, then we are liberated from Maya, from illusion.

 

Krishna says:

 

 

 

The Supersoul alone is the ultimate controller and creator of this world, and thus He alone is also the created. Similarly, the Soul of all existence Himself both maintains and is maintained, withdraws and is withdrawn. No other entity can be properly ascertained as separate from Him, the Supreme Soul, who nonetheless is distinct from everything and everyone else. The appearance of the threefold material nature, which is perceived within Him, has no actual basis. Rather, you should understand that this material nature, composed of the three modes, is simply the product of His illusory potency.

 

 

 

Kapiladeva tells us:

 

 

When the mind is thus completely freed from all material contamination and detached from material objectives, it is just like the flame of a lamp. At that time the mind is actually dovetailed with that of the Supreme Lord and is experienced as one with Him because it is freed from the interactive flow of the material qualities.

 

Thus situated in the highest transcendental stage, the mind ceases from all material reaction and becomes situated in its own glory, transcendental to all material conceptions of happiness and distress. At that time the yogi realizes the truth of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He discovers that pleasure and pain as well as their interactions, which he attributed to his own self, are actually due to the false ego, which is a product of ignorance.

 

 

[muralidhar_das]

<blockquote>

 

Thanks for the response

 

What I was questioning was whether or not it is "rati" that one must have as a prerequisite for practicing raganuga-bhakti. Clearly, one must be purified before having rati - on this point I agree with you. But where is it said that one must have "rati" to practice raganuga?

 

thanks,

 

alpa-medhasaH

</blockquote>

 

According to Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, you don't need to have attained rati to engage in raganuga sadhana.

 

Nor do you need to know what your siddha-deha is.

[stonehearted]

Guest:

Also, I found it entertaining that it was said his father was a Gosvami. I thought "Gosvami" was a title given to renunciates, not householders. Why was his father using money from disciples to live such a lavish lifestyle?

 

 

Why entertaining? Haven't you heard of "caste goswamis"? These are brahamana families whose family name is Goswami and whose business is the business of brahamanas: pathana, pAthana, yajana, yAjana, dAna, pratrigraha. They are quite common throughout Bengal and around Vraja. Many may not be very qualified, but many certainly are. The family that has managed Radha-raman Temple in Vrindavan are such a family, and many of them are wonderful devotees. I've met Visvambhar Goswami and his son Padmanabh Goswami, and I like them both quite well. And Visvambhara's grandfather helped Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati prepare for the famous Midnapore debate.

[raga]

It's quite befitting how only certain parts of the story are taken to make the Goswami look bad. It isn't posted how he left all that behind, and it isn't posted what then became of him.

[raga]

With regards to lobha, please refer to the document posted, and Visvanatha's reference from RVC on gradations of lobha.

[muralidhar_das]

Madhava,

 

The point I made in regard to Tinkori das babaji was that his father lavished material things on him, paying for his tobacco and palaquin bearers and wotnot. I said that the money given to his father by his disciples (guru-daksina) should not have been spent on things like that.

 

Accoring to Upadeshamrtama verse 1, a guru needs to be austere.

 

Tinkori das babaji took diksa from his father, and I questioned the "tradition" that says it is ok for sons to inherit the title of "guru". That is all.

[raga]

 

Also, I found it entertaining that it was said his father was a Gosvami. I thought "Gosvami" was a title given to renunciates, not householders. Why was his father using money from disciples to live such a lavish lifestyle?

 

 

While the title Goswami, or Gosain, is also given to renunciates, it is also frequently used for others. (Vide doya koro sri-acharya advaita-gosai and so forth.) It is also commonly in use as a family name.

 

Why was the father using money from disciples to live such a lavish lifestyle? That I do not know. However one would assume that the disciples were well aware of this, and if they gave nevertheless, it cannot be considered an abuse of the donation as such.

 

While I am not saying this is parallel, as I am not in a position to judge that, one would do well to remember the story of Gadadhar Pandit meeting Pundarika Vidyanidhi before being overly "entertained" by biographical accounts such as this one. Don't just take something from the middle, look at how the story ends; that's something by which you can determine how qualified the individual truly was.

[raga]

 

Accoring to Upadeshamrtama verse 1, a guru needs to be austere.

 

 

Though I'm obviously not discounting the need for a devotee to control their various urges, that really isn't what the verse says.

¨

First of all, it doesn't speak about being austere. It speaks about controlling the urges. These two aren't necessarily synonymous, there's a great deal of subjectivity in what's befitting for each individual. yuktAhAra-vihArasya etc.

[stonehearted]

I think control of the urges counts as austerity, and that doesn't necessarily preclude what we may see as comfortable living. Gadadhar Pandit accepted Pundarika Vidyanidhi, whom Mahaprabhu called Premanidhi, as guru, and Pundarika's life apparently included all sorts of comforts. So I'm not sure we have any sort of dichotomy here.

[muralidhar_das]

Madhava,

 

Yes I agree with your statement about the use of the word "Goswami" or "Gosai". A householder brahmin in the Gaudiya Sampraday is often called "Goswami" as his family name, and as you say that tradition goes right back to the time of Advaita Gosai. Bhakti Saranga Goswami Maharaj (a disciple of Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur) had the family name of "Goswami". Like Srila Govinda Maharaj, he was from a family of Gaudiya caste-goswamis.

 

Then again, Totarama das Babaji declared:

aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sahajiya, sakhibeki, smarta, jata-gosani,

ativadi, cudadhari, gauranga-nagari tato kahe, ei terara sanga nahi kari

The aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sahajiya, sakhibheki, smarta, jata-gosani, ativadi, cudadhari, gauranga-nagari - do not associate with them.

 

In regard to Pundarika Vidyanidhi, it is a fact that he smoked a hukka. But Gadadhara Pandit realized it was an offence to see him as a conditioned soul, and he took diksa from him. But then we need to use some discrimination and we shouldn't be fooled by baul gurus who have harems and whose followers say they are just followers of the raga-marga.

 

In regard to the disiples giving money to a guru who used it for buying material pleasures for his son. If the disciples don't disagree, this doesn't make it right. What do Rupa-Sanatana say about these things? That is our concern. Would Rupa-Sanatana agree that a man who is a professional guru can bestow "siddha-pranali" on his son, or anyone else? I really would challenge the proposition that Rupa-Sanatana would agree.

<blockquote>

Sri Rupa Goswami

vimuktakilatar yair ya muktir api vimrgyate

ya krsnenatigopy asu bhajadbhyo ‘pi na diyate

sa bhukti-mukti-kamatva cchuddham bhaktim akurvatam

hrdaye sambhavat yesam katham bhagavati ratih

Rati, the feeling of attraction to Krishna that is sought after by souls who have sacrificed

all selfish desires, the feeling of attraction which Sri Krishna withholds in great secrecy, is

not easily conferred by him even to devotees who are engaged in spiritual practices. How

can there be an appearance of rati in the hearts of those who do not practice unalloyed

and pure bhakti because of manifold desires for elevation and salvation, or in the hearts of

those who are anxious for self-destruction by way of desiring for merging in the Absolute

Brahman? (Bhaktirasamrtasindhu 1.3.42-3)

</blockquote>

 

This whole debate just goes round and round in circles. If someone believes the caste-goswamis can award siddha-pranali, then that is OK. I believe differently.

[Guest guest]

 

If the disciples don't disagree, this doesn't make it right.

 

 

Please take those TVs away. There are much better things to see and meditate upon.

[raga]

 

Then again, Totarama das Babaji declared:

aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sahajiya, sakhibeki, smarta, jata-gosani,

ativadi, cudadhari, gauranga-nagari tato kahe, ei terara sanga nahi kari

The aula, baula, kartabhaja, neda, daravesa, sani, sahajiya, sakhibheki, smarta, jata-gosani, ativadi, cudadhari, gauranga-nagari - do not associate with them.

 

 

I believe "jati-gosani" here refers to the jati-Vaishnavas, that's the way I've heard it often explained. They are a good deal different from the hereditary Goswamis, and are considered unorthodox both by the "orthodoxy" and the Gaudiya Math. Quoting from Bhrigumuni's thesis on guru-tattva (he's from ISKCON/GM, so it should be bonafide /images/graemlins/smile.gif), there's a good section on history there:

 

<font color="#993399">The jati vaisnavas comprise the fourth class of Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Kennedy writes that it consists of the offspring of babajis and matajis, and others who have become Vaisnavas after being rejected by their own community for some reason. (1) The jati vaisnavas consider themselves for religious reasons as voluntarily standing outside the varnasrama system. This community remained more or less unknown until 1901, when the Census of Bengal for the first and last time included a hierarchy of castes, placing the jati vaisnavas very low. However, no less than about 500 000 Hindus claimed to belong to this jati. The religious rites of this community were exclusively Vaisnava, even though much more simple than those of the grhasthas. Marriage, for example, comprised of no more than a change of garlands in front of the guru. The minimal other samskaras that are followed also do not follow the brahmanical standard, but are adaptations of devotional rituals. The low place given to this group in the census of 1901 led to a gradual sanskritisation (2) of it, so that it today appears to have in many places lost its distinctive character, its members being similar to the grhasthas (3) described above. Some classify the jati vaisnavas as heterodox Gaudiya Vaisnavas. (4)

 

1) Kennedy (1926), 178

2) This term was introduced by M.N. Srinivas to indicate the historical process by which the beliefs and practices of lower castes tend to converge with those of higher groups, as the former try to emulate the latter in order to raise their social status. My usage of this standard term does not indicate that I believe that there is any one Sanskritic Hinduism or clearly distinguishable higher and lower strata of Hinduism.

3) O’Connell (1986), 51-53

4) E.g. Kedarnatha Datta Bhaktivinoda. See Shukavak Dasa (1999), 124.

 

= = =

 

Gaudiya Vaisnava practicioners can be divided into four classes: goswamis or hereditary brahmana gurus; grhasthas or householder laity; babajis or renunciates; and jati vaisnavas or a class of hereditary laymen, originally stemming from wayward renunciates and persons who had been ostracised from their own community. The last group has during the last century to a large extent become amalgamated with the second. There are also some modern groups of Gaudiya Vaisnavas (e.g. ISKCON) that don’t fit into the traditional vamsas and parivaras and who have some peculiar teachings, but that still generally are held to belong to the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. </font color>

[raga]

 

In regard to Pundarika Vidyanidhi, it is a fact that he smoked a hukka. But Gadadhara Pandit realized it was an offence to see him as a conditioned soul, and he took diksa from him. But then we need to use some discrimination and we shouldn't be fooled by baul gurus who have harems and whose followers say they are just followers of the raga-marga.

 

In regard to the disiples giving money to a guru who used it for buying material pleasures for his son. If the disciples don't disagree, this doesn't make it right. What do Rupa-Sanatana say about these things? That is our concern. Would Rupa-Sanatana agree that a man who is a professional guru can bestow "siddha-pranali" on his son, or anyone else? I really would challenge the proposition that Rupa-Sanatana would agree.

 

 

I am not one to start defending or challenging it, as the status of the issue is of little consequence to myself personally.

 

However I've heard some explain that the smoking of hukka in the case of some Goswamis is a matter of upholding a certain profile, that they are expected to be doing that by the people. In other words, it's a part of a guru-image and thus serves a particular purpose.

 

As I pointed out earlier, if the disciples don't find something objectionable and in fact expect something, and thus give donations, I don't see it as particularly wrong. Even the TVs and radios of your Sridhar and Govinda Maharajas, are they not sponsored by disciples? Are news in all languages of the world or the Indian cricket league really vital matters for a guru?

[Guest guest]

It doesn't suit their arguments to say that he became a siddha.

[muralidhar_das]

criticizes my Gurudev for watching TV and taking an interest in Russia and China. Here is the fruit of my Gurudev's interest in China:

 

Radhastami in China: http://scsmath.com/memories/04b/040922-china-radhastami/040922-china-radhastami.html

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nice to see her performing arati rather than watching the idiot box. ;-)

 

You've criticized the activities of a Vaisnava who later rejected those activities something we are advised not to do. I'd like to ask in this regard about smoking in your group. I've met more *dope* smokers in the Caitanya Saraswata Math than in any other group. I've known people who were stoned on the day they took initiation! They never changed their habits. Didn't Sridhar Maharaja have a liberal attitude to that? "It is not such serious thing" or so? Just another example of the hypocrisy you have shown in giving such a slanted picture of Tinkudi Goswami.

[Guest guest]

 

It's quite befitting how only certain parts of the story are taken to make the Goswami look bad. It isn't posted how he left all that behind, and it isn't posted what then became of him.

 

 

I was not attempting to make him look bad. I found several elements within that story that are incompatible with the idea that he comes from a "traditional" Gaudiya Vaishnava line and that he is qualified to receive and give siddha-pranali. Let me outline these objections. I am doing this for the sake of discussion; I do not want to stir up bad feelings:

 

1) The donations from Harimohana's disciples were used for purchasing useless luxuries. This is incompatible with the idea that Harimohana (Tinkodi's father and guru) had mastered his senses (even though he is Gosvami). Sri Upadesamrta of Rupa Gosvami explains that overeating and endeavoring for material things ruin one's bhakti: atyAhAraH prayAsash cha.

 

2) Harimohana saw that his son wasn't doing well in school, so he pulled him out and tried to get him to take to the guru profession. If he was so traditional, why didn't he start his son with brahminical education? Why wait for him to drop out of secular education? By these standards, even my own ancestors are far more orthodox - they didn't take to spiritual life because they dropped out of school - they did it right from the beginning.

 

I see great problems with the idea of "Can't make money through college degree? Ok, drop out and become orthodox traditional guru."

 

3) Tinkadi Gosvami smoked hukka. Perhaps he was young and ignorant at the time, but how could his "traditional" father allow this, and that too with money given by disciples? Sri Upadesamrta explains that one's bhakti is ruined by six activites, one of which is niyama-agrahaH (neglect of scriptural prohibitions). How could his "traditional" father let this go on?

 

4) It could be argued that Tinkadi Gosvami went elsewhere for spritual enlightenment. However, the chapter in OBL Kapoor's book makes clear that he needed no other initiation, because he was already initiated by his father (who gave him many luxuries from disciples' donations along with very high quality tobacco for smoking):

 

"This time Baba gave him permission to live in Vrndavana but said, "Gosain! How can I give you vesa. You belong to the family of acaryas, with whose help and blessings people cross the ocean of Maya. You do not need vesa."

 

Tinkadi Gosvami then tried to take vesa from some other saint. But no one gave him vesa, because he was an acarya. Therefore, one day he took vesa of a renounciant Babji by putting on an old kaupina of Baba Manohara Dasa and taking a vow never to return home. He did not need initiation, because he was already initiated by his father."

 

Again, I am questioning how such an "initiation" (from a guru who allows smoking and is mad after luxuries) can be taken as acceptable or even "traditional." And that too from people who scoff at Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, despite his exemplary moral character.

 

Also, I was corrected in my statement about "Gosvami" - obviously some householders are known by the title (even in South India). However, the point I was trying to make is that people who are considered to have mastered their senses usually are known by the title - I am unconvinced that one can be accepted as a "Gosvami" simply due to heredity. I am also unconvinced that such a precedent (of hereditary Gosvamis) is accepted by the Six Gosvamis who laid out much of Sri Caitanya's philosophy in writing. Ofcourse, one who is born into a Gosvami family could go on to become a true Gosvami too! On the other hand, hukka-smoking "Gosvamis" does not seem compatible with Gaudiya Vaishnava standards.

 

I'm also aware of the examples of Nityananda and Pundarik, but are we always going to cite their examples to apologize for every example of corruption in the sampradaya? Can we not simply admit that some things are wrong, instead of stubbornly defending every corruption or simply looking the other way?

 

I am also disappointed with the attitude that "I won't challenge this, because it does not affect me personally" (especially in a forum like this where a few words go a long way in establishing one's view). Obviously, this issue affects everyone who take to Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Gaudiyas will not want their sadhus to be known as materialists. How can the tradition as a whole be respected by the greater Indian/Hindu/religious community if traditioanl Gaudiya gurus do not distance themselves from these sorts of impious activities? How can it be respected when initiation from hukka-smoking gurus is sufficient in and of itself for initiation?

 

alpa-medhasaH