spiritual communism

[theist]

What is spiritual communism?

 

How could one present spiritual communism in current North American society?

 

Would the essence of varnashrama be fulfilled in such a system even without offical designations of brahmana sudra etc.?

 

How would a spiritual communist approach the idea of "private" ownership of property. Is it compatable in some way with the tenets of spiritual communism?

[Gauracandra]

Communism (the collective ownership of property) can only work in small settings. Monasteries are naturally communistic and can work on that level. I could see a system of monasteries where some portion of society works with no ownership of property. This is actually a good balance for society. There should be areas of society where there is no private ownership, areas where there is a combination of private and public ownership (say guilds), and areas for private property ownership.

 

Other examples might include prasadam distribution. No one should go hungry within 10 miles of a temple. Imagine for a moment that Krishna Consciousness is spread to a large degree. A homeless person could in fact live on prasadam every day. How? Every sunday there would be a Sunday Feast. Every time a wedding occured, a feast would be for the community. Every time a child is born a feast would be set up for the community. Basically any big event there is a feast. In this way wealthier people can support the poor. Just one festival, one feast every day. Right now our community is small, so perhaps there is a wedding every couple of months. Imagine an area with say 10,000 devotees. There'd be weddings, deaths, birthdays, graduations etc.... every day. Wealth would naturally be redistributed in a practical way. We all get in the same line and partake of Krishna prasadam.

[theist]

I guess when it comes down to it what I am looking for is a manifesto on spiritual communism.

 

Where are the Vaisnava Marx and Engles. (We have plenty of Grouchos and bro.s already. /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

 

We also need someone to design a tilak and sickle logo. What's a revolution without a logo.

 

"Jivas...United...always serving Krsna."

[krsna]

 

/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[theist]

But we also need a more down to earth one. When someone brought up the Soviet Union's symbol of hammer and sickle he said something about replacing the hammer with tilak. Tilak and sickle.

 

We can see spitiual communism in Sri Isopanishad. The ideas found in Sri Isopanishad will be the basis for our upcoming Manifesto of Spiritual Communism. Once we find an author that is. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

Iso 1: Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong.

 

This verse is spititual communism in a concentrated, highly condensed form; in a nutshell. A nut is a seed which contains the coding for an entire tree including thousand more nuts for a thousand more trees.

 

What would such a tree look like if it was growing in our Western society. Gauracandra suggested such a lifestyle could only be successful on a small scale here. I think he is right. But can some major issues be influenced at least in this direction?

 

[Guest guest]

The way of modern vaisnavism, where fighting among ourselves is seemingly the nectar for which we are so anxious, maybe it should be the hammer and tilak. Sickles have been replaced by weedwhackers anyway, have you ever used a sickle, waht a pain. But I wont trade my hammer for a staple gun.

 

So keep the hammer (ive had my hammer since PP&M sang if I had a hammer in 1963) and trash the sickle. As far as logos go, the logos of hammers from pink floyd's the wall was awesome, throw a tilak in there.

 

I was gonna say a good logo would be a swastika, but other revisionists have already ruined that one.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

But the idea was high thinking and devotion couple with agriculture. I'll stick with the tilak over the hammer.

 

I was going to counter the PP&M song with Maxwell's silver hammer but then I realized you would come back with the Grim Reapers sickle so I won't.

 

How about the ultimate "Prabhupada said..." instead.

 

Checkmate madmax. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[krsna]

 

 

 

Prabhpada said, "Chant Hare Krsna and be happy!"

(And go BTG at the end of this lifetime...)

 

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[krsna]

 

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[krsna]

k

[Kulapavana]

"the idea was high thinking and devotion couple with agriculture"

 

I often wonder, how many agricultural crops have people who proclaim such slogans actually raised themselves?

 

and besides, Vedic civilization was not just agriculture. read the description of Dvaraka in Krishna Book to get an idea. There were also mines, foundries and metal forges. And that was the tail end of the Vedic civilization.

 

 

spiritual communism is a purely utopian concept in general social sense. it may work fine in a small ashram of sadhus (altough I have not seen it happen /images/graemlins/wink.gif ).

 

the system of varnashrama dharma was not communistic. one could say that the system of daivi varnashram leans that way, but again - daivi varnashram is an utopian idea.

 

 

any idea that does not take into consideration the fallen human nature is doomed to failure.

 

[theist]

Nothing will be successful on a mass scale in this age but you need something to present or not even the few will have anything to take up.

 

Uptopian? Of course. And where is all your talk of establishing varnashrama going to lead?

 

For the public dialouge you need to have something solid to present and then it will be questioned and challenged. This leads the conversation to one concerning private ownership which allows one to glorify the Supreme and only Owner. Someone may then pick up the idea that the attempt to "own" more and more is futile because God already owns everything.

 

It's a hook bro that I believe has a better chance of bearing fruit then trying to convince someone of accepting what others will see as the caste system of India that has held people under subjagation for so long. Why beat the head against that wall.

 

 

"the idea was high thinking and devotion couple with agriculture"

 

I often wonder, how many agricultural crops have people who proclaim such slogans actually raised themselves?

 

 

You wonder about that? I don't think Prabhupada ever worked on a farm. So?

 

 

[theist]

Here is a link to Google's search page on 'spiritual communism'. You will notice the first one is Prabhupada's and many of the other one's are as well.

 

This is not a new topic that I am somehow inventing. Ghandi also had a socialist God centered philosphy.

 

I was just hoping to get some ideas for conversation on the subject for use on beliefnet. Not really thinking we were going to have masses in the street marching on Washington. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[krsna]

Are you on the spiritual/hindu forums?

[theist]

I use theist. Abortion, animal rights , and Evangelical Christianity debate primarily.

 

Just recently I registered two more names, one is yesu_bhaktan for more spiritually oriented non-debate type forums. The abortion and animal rights boards can get real intense. I am trying to stay aloof from useless argumentation. It is fruitless and draining. I also registered the name comradesoul /images/graemlins/smile.gif (for more worldly boards ( political, environmental etc.). I want to plant Sri Isopanishad seeds and concepts where I can. Spiritual communism.

 

I am trying to introduce aham brahmasmi and reincarnation into both debates. Afterall Srila Prabhupada has given the answer to every known major problem that can seen in society as it all is traceable back to false identification.

 

I envision it like approaching strangers on a street corner. There are so many different sorts out there and a lot of people seeking some answers. And it keeps me out of monkey business (mostly).

 

Stop in and share some nectar.

[Kulapavana]

"the idea was high thinking and devotion couple with agriculture"

 

I often wonder, how many agricultural crops have people who proclaim such slogans actually raised themselves?

 

---------------------------

 

You wonder about that? I don't think Prabhupada ever worked on a farm. So?"

 

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Because such people have no clue how hard it is (especially for people not used to such work), and besides - not everybody is a vaishya.

 

I understand the general idea of "simple living and high thinking", but often such slogans require a lot of adjusting before they become practical, working reality. The gurukula system is one example. The idea of KC educational system is great, but the initial approach was a disaster on many levels...

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Common ownership of the means of production is another method for a society to commit suicide!! Think about it. If there is no private property, there is no profit principle at work. IF there is no profit, there is no incentive for action. If there is no incentive for action, there is no action, or there is merely the action necessary for survival. Such a society can never generate wealth.

 

Plus it can never produce great people. Suppose a man wants to become a musician, he wants money, not just fame and recognition, he needs his own money, his own house, property, THINGS WHICH BELONG TO HIM AND TO HIM ONLY. And that desire itself will motivate him to become a great painter or musician or whatever. But common ownership will kill that desire, thereby killing the actions needed to realize that desire. Hence, mediocrity is the only consequence of communism, as there is simply no profit in becoming great or special.

 

The above example is about how the individual suffers in communist society. But that's not all. There is 'collective suffering' as well. For instance, 500 people start a business venture, there is no ONE PERSON owning the means of production. They all own them TOGETHER, according to commie principles. So far so good. The problem arises when they sell the products. The money they get from sales receipts is profit, so how are they going to divide it amongst themselves? If there is equal distribution, the man with the shovel will earn as much as the Harvard Graduate. So ironically, equality will expose inequality when it comes to distribution of wages. On the other hand, if wages are distributed on the basis of merit, then you will be applying capitalist principles. So either way, it becomes anti-communist method of distribution. So what's the point in implementing communism when it's gonna end in anti-communism???

 

There are plenty of examples I can give you, but you do get the picture. Also, if you say that one can create a moneyless society so as to avoid 'inequality', again the problem will arise as to the standard you are going to use for exchanging goods. That is the biggest headache, if you reject money as the medium of exchange, because same items have diff. value for different people, and therefore an exchange or trade can never take place without a good fight! Only money can avoid this problem by presenting itself as a 'stable' medium. So the commie line that 'money is evil' doesn't hold water.

 

All in all, whether it is money-based communism or moneyless communism, it is bound to be a failure.

 

Regards,

Superman

[Guest guest]

in my previous post. Those who say I am wrong are plain stupid.

 

Regards,

Superman

[theist]

 

Common ownership of the means of production is another method for a society to commit suicide!! Think about it.

 

 

I just read this one line and wanted to respond then I will read the rest of your post.

 

Spiritual communism is not common ownership. It is a recognition that the is only one owner, Krsna.

 

Certainly it won't be implemented in this age but it is a solid preaching tool, the ideal, because it is the truth. The real idea is to help others internalize the concept and personally become a good citizen of such a land within their own life.

[krsna]

http://prabhupadaconnect.com/CauselessMercy45.html

[theist]

That bhakta knows his stuff. I bookmarked it. Interesting site also. I bookmarked that too.