Bhakti Caru Svami Initiation Ceremony Lecture in Mauritius

[theist]

 

 

T:"If you go by sight Srila Prabhupada was an elderly Indian gentleman who walk with a cane. But is that what one accepts as his spiritual master?"

 

if you do not accept the millions of instructions of srila prabhupada about surrendering to a spiritual master, if you do not accept his example in being uttama adhikari, but also taking harinama, diksa and sannyasi from other spiritual persons, you are actually considering him in this way.

To consider prabhupada great means to follow his advices and example.

 

 

 

Yes exactly. I am not saying I see him as guru. I see everyone as a material body. But then I don't claim to be a disciple. I know I am not.

 

But don't get carried away. Srila Prabhupada did not follow his spiritual master's exact formulea for accepting sannyasa for example. Is he now not a bonefide teacher because he didn't take sannyas from a picture of Bhaktisiddhanta?

 

And his example and instructions are still present and very much alive.

 

 

T:" To see guru is to hear guru through a purified mind."

 

a purified mind is achieved following the instructions of gita and acharyas, not fantasizing thatwe do not need a guru because a "departed(in human terms)" one is still giving instructions to us.

 

 

 

Who said anything about not needing a guru? Not I, ever. I just question your apparently limited definition of what a guru is.

 

 

 

Prabhupada gave thousand initiations, and he gave all the instruction about guru seva in "vani" to initiated devotees. It is very strange if we use this science to avoid to take initiation and siksa from a guru that we can see and interact with even in our conditioned stage

 

 

 

Again you are talking like you know me and me views but it is obvious you don't. Don't make such personal assumptions please.

 

 

T:"You don't think you can receive siksa from Srila Prabhupada's books and tapes?"

 

you can receive instructions in general terms, but you cannot receive instructions suited for you and you only..

 

 

 

Absolute rubbish!! Here is a very specific instruction for all souls and specifically for the next 427,000 years. "Chant the holy name! Chant the holy name!Chant the holy name! There is no other way..there is no other way...there is no other way to achieve God realization in this age of Kali."

Here is another one:

"Always remember Krsna and never forget Krsna."

 

 

and it is not possible also to receive instructions for our precise time, place and circumstance.

 

 

 

As above. Try to remeber we are trying to absorb subject matter that is not confined to time and spacial considerations. Not just details on if one should wear a dhoti or not or to use water to wash his rear-end after passing stool.

 

And it is not possible any interaction,

 

 

 

Boy you really do believe that when your guru dies he dies, don't you.

 

 

 

and it is not possible to be chastized.. if you go to a wrong page of the folio or of the srimad bhagavatam they do not chastize you

 

 

 

You should feel chastised everytime you read something from Srila Prabhupada. Try this. When he is criticizing materially minded people and those with various demonic desires picture him speaking about your present condition, it helps me because in my case he is.

 

And likewise when he is describing the nature of the liberated devotees we can take it he is referring to someone other then ourselves.

 

Besides that if we are reading SB and feeling like we are alone with a book full of non-living words and ideas we need to wake up. The SB is alive and present also. What to speak of Supersoul Who is alive and present and helping us with our studies. What human parent would ignore his child as they tried to learn to read? So how much more from our Supreme Parent.

 

 

" Your godbrothers can tell you to get your body up for mangala arotik. Do you think you need a pure devotee for that?"

 

if you do not need personal association with the guru, why you have to listen to godbrothers? wake up when you want and there's surely a Prabhupada instruction somewhere, given in a particular circumstance, that you can use to back up your decision

 

 

 

Sarcasm can be fun but only if an answer is provided with it and not in place of an answer.

 

 

"But remember not everyone on the big chair is of Srila Prabhupada's realization. Don't just surrender to someone because he is on the big chair."

 

no one is suggesting to surrender to "big chairs".. if guru isn't uttama adhikari why surrender?

 

 

 

That's right. And why pretend to surrender if you really are not trying to?

 

 

 

But uttama adhikaris are surely there, otherwise why all these instructions about taking a spiritual master by previous acharyas?If it were impossible there was no need to instruct us about guru tattva

 

 

 

I have never said there are no such people. You are talking to a person and not a script. Sounds like you dug out the ole' anti-ritvik position paper.

 

 

"It's only valid if "visible by the human eyes of the disciple". So a blind man cannot have a guru?"

 

i understand that sometimes you have to do a little joke.. :-)

 

 

 

It is a very serious point delivered in a joking way. Don't try to dodge it. You made that statement in your previous post. My point is you accept guru by hearing and not by physical sight.

 

G."the tendence is that many iskcon gurus do not take the full responsability of guruship.

 

T:Why just Iskcon? this is common"

 

false gurus are everywhere, but this custom to take disciples and say that it is not the guru to take them to krsna, but it is the organization or prabhupada, is typical of iskcon. We have seen it in the bhakti charu maharaja's class

 

"The problem arises when false promises are made. Such as "I am now your only link to the parampara"

 

if one cannot be a link to parampara why act as guru?

 

 

[Guest guest]

" Srila Prabhupada did not follow his spiritual master's exact formulea for accepting sannyasa for example. Is he now not a bonefide teacher because he didn't take sannyas from a picture of Bhaktisiddhanta?"

 

we are speaking of the principle of accepting a present(in human terms) guru.. It does not necessarily means that we have to repeat all details done by guru.. and Prabhupada was a perfect example of this. He changed a lot more, and we too can be much more creative if we have to deal with a person with the possibility to relationate, to have interaction than with books or classes on a cd

 

"And his example and instructions are still present and very much alive."

 

all acharyas' instructions are alive if we approach them in the correct way.. through surrendering to guru.

 

"Who said anything about not needing a guru? Not I, ever. I just question your apparently limited definition of what a guru is."

 

i am a very limited person, but my definition is simply that we need vapu and vani, initiation and teaching. My experience is that everytime i can be in direct association of my spiritual master (max one or two weeks in a year) and receive instructions and chastisements, i go back home and reading bhagavad gita or bhagavatam, or the books of interviews to srila prabhupada or His byographies i feel that my understanding is 200% better. I hear something similar from devotees who saw Prabhupada when he was "present"..

 

"Here is a very specific instruction for all souls and specifically for the next 427,000 years. "Chant the holy name! Chant the holy name!Chant the holy name! There is no other way..there is no other way...there is no other way to achieve God realization in this age of Kali."

Here is another one:

"Always remember Krsna and never forget Krsna.""

 

these instructions were given hundreds and thousand of years ago... if you consider that it is enough to have read them to follow them, why the need of Prabhupada? So guru comes to teach us the behaviour and philosophy to sustain our faith in chanting the holy name. And serving him, surrendering to him and thinking of him, being him the transparent medium, it is the same of doing it with krsna.

We are conditioned, we do not see krsna, we cannot serve krsna directly... but even if we're very neophites we can do it serving and remembering the guru. At the beginning we see the guru as an ordinary person, but this mistake can be corrected only through association with the guru to receive his mercy. In the same way we will purify also our relationship with "departed" acharyas, otherwise we will see them as mythologic charachters and we'll make them say anything that suites our tastes and purpose.. and that is happening now every day. Everyone uses Prabhupada's name to preach any kind of philosophy .. also the most "anti-prabhupadian" ones

 

"Try to remeber we are trying to absorb subject matter that is not confined to time and spacial considerations. "

 

yes .. but let us start from the basic... for first we need to take shelter to someone who's interacting even with neophites being also a tattva darshinah, a "vaikunta man", then through this surrender well'access vaikunta were everyone is alive and visible..

 

"Boy you really do believe that when your guru dies he dies, don't you."

 

i believe that if i will be not yet realized when it will happen (and surely i will not be) , i will see it as a real death and i will surely need to approach another uttama adhikari to ask him to continue the work of my initiating spiritual master. In this way i will be realized and i will live the reality of both relationships who have nothing to do with birth and death.

But if i artificially will pose as i'd feel a real relationship with my "departed" diksa guru, pretending to have no need to be guided by another master, i'll remain in maya even if posing as a faithful disciple conscious of the eternity of the guru

 

"You should feel chastised everytime you read something from Srila Prabhupada. "

 

when Prabhupada was "present(in human terms)" devotees made thousand of kilometers to go to Him to be instructed or chastized. No one was thinking.."Prabhupada is on books.. i do not need to go, books are enough". We read that Prabhupada were continously explaining his books.. So books are complete...but books are shastra, not shastra+guru+sadhus. We need all three aspects to advance in spirituality

 

"Besides that if we are reading SB and feeling like we are alone with a book full of non-living words and ideas we need to wake up"

 

and who can wake up?? It is not a theoretical knowledge or a simple intellectual realization to achieve with the use of our human mind. We need to be inspired and instructed to see the transcendental life shining in the bhagavatam

 

"Sarcasm can be fun but only if an answer is provided with it and not in place of an answer"

 

the answer is simple... guru is not needed only to say wich hour is mangala arati. Vani is a serious thing, but vapu too i believe.

 

"That's right. And why pretend to surrender if you really are not trying to?"

 

both us we have to surrender to uttama adhikari.. surrendering to uttama adhikari means doing it in the way they have eternally recommended

 

"I have never said there are no such people."

 

so let us surrender to them and automatically we were also surrendered to srila prabhupada, otherwise there's no possibility. Prabhupada has come to teach us to surrender to the guru, and through the guru to krsna

 

"My point is you accept guru by hearing and not by physical sight."

 

my point is that phisical sight is the same as phisical hearing. If we are in a phisical plane we need a phisical relationship.. if this phisical relationship is between a sincere disciple and a real spiritual master, very soon this relationship will be more transcendental than phisical.. then completely transcendental. Until then there's no question of refusing phisical relationships because we are illuded to havea transcendental relationship with an acharya who is not phisically present

 

"Why are we speaking now? We are trying to act as guru's. You are instructing me and I am instructing you."

 

no this is ishta gosti...brotherhood, friendship... i am not surrendered to you, i am not prepared to listen to you and follow even when you say things that i do not understand. So that is a valid vaishnava relationship, but not a guru-disciple relationship. We need both kinds

 

" I see you and many other promoters of their particular guru as "the only one for here and now"

 

why? have i recommended a guru to you? I simply expressed the idea that surrendering to an uttama adhikari is unavoidable and that an uttama adhikari takes the responsability to bring the disciple to krsna and he does not delegates his master or the master's organization to do it.

Then the person to surrender to is your (and krsna's) business.. not mine

 

harekrsna!!

 

 

 

[muralidhar_das]

This is the statement I find most peculiar:

<blockquote>

Bhakti Caru Swami:

But the 1st initiation, the harinam initiation, the receiving of mantra, is not actually important. Why? Because the mantra has been given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and it is public. You have been chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra even before initiation. So the mantra you have already gotten.

</blockquote>

 

I don't believe I got the Hare Krishna Mahamantra from Mahaprabhu. I got it from Srila Sridhar Maharaj, my Guru.

 

And by the way, the giving of Harinama "initiation" is described in Chaitanya Bhagavat, in the example of the prostitute who became a disciple of Haridas Thakur. That lady did not get "gayatri mantra diksa" - she received Harinama. The giving of Harinama initiation has always been a part of Gaudiya tradition. It is just not true that because Mahaprabhu told everyone "chant hare krishna" that consequently everyone has received the Hare Krishna mantra from Mahaprabhu.

 

 

 

[stonehearted]

Well said, Muralidhar prabhu. And the example of Haridas and the prostitute is right on point. The Harinama initiation is not insignificant at all. The guru and disciple make a mutual commitment to serve each other in the appropriate capacity, the guru by instructing the disciple and arranging for him or her, as Srila Sridhar Maharaja put it, "deep engagement in responsible service," and the disciple to engaging in that service and, perhaps, finding other ways to expand the Lord's service.

 

I've always had a nice relationship with Bhakticharu Maharaja, but over the last couple of years I've had serious questions about statements he has made.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

The spiritual master accepts the sinful activities of his disciples from the first initiation. I may give initiation very easily, but what can I do? I am prepared to go to hell for service of Lord Caitanya.

Jadurani dasi 4th Sept 1972

 

I read on the 1st Page, that my Gurudeva recieved 1st Initiation from Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, later he recieved 2nd initiation, but that Guru was given up due to unforseen circumstances. [That's in the Bio in the site of Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Maharaja]. Also Srila Prabhupada says in the letter you posted that 2nd initiation is real initiation. So when you get 1st initiation and your little purifed you maybe accepted for 2nd. So that is why it REAL Initation. Why? Real? That's obvious.

 

[theist]

The sun arose before me yet again. Guest, I will just post a comment here and there as I see no point in continuing. Our paths are just a little different. The path of Krsna consciousness appears to me to be both very narrow like a razor's edge and yet broad enough to accomodate all the innumerable living entities, and that was my point all along.

 

 

T:"And his example and instructions are still present and very much alive."

 

all acharyas' instructions are alive if we approach them in the correct way.. through surrendering to guru.

 

And surrendering to the guru means to surrender to his instructions.

 

This is circular logic and there is no need to continue spinning on this wheel.

 

 

 

Prabhupada taught these instructions. No one has these instructions that I know of apart from him. To follow these instructions is to follow Prabhupada.

[theist]

 

"Why are we speaking now? We are trying to act as guru's. You are instructing me and I am instructing you."

 

no this is ishta gosti...brotherhood, friendship... i am not surrendered to you, i am not prepared to listen to you and follow even when you say things that i do not understand. So that is a valid vaishnava relationship, but not a guru-disciple relationship. We need both kinds

 

 

Not formally but underlying all material motives there is a desire to assume what one considers the higher position.

 

[krsna]

Tripurari Maharaja:

 

A. In one sense diksa is the formalization of the relationship between guru and disciple that recognizes something that has already taken place, just as marriage formalizes a relationship already in progress. However, within the formal ceremony something of substance takes place: vows on the part of the disciple and the transmission of the mantra on the part of the guru. While the ceremony may be a formality, the imparting of the mantra is not. This is the substance. The extent to which this act is substantial is dependent on the realization of the guru and the surrender of the disciple. In the same way that the power of one's siksa is dependent on the extent to which one has realized the siksa one gives, similarly the power of diksa depends on the diksa guru's own realization of the mantra he imparts.

 

For example, if a person has been to India, he can speak about India in ways that will be far more compelling than that which we can read in the travel brochure. His experience is conveyed through his speech. Not only does he have personal examples and insights that only one who has experienced the place would be able to relate, but the very quality of his speech, backed by his experience, is superior to that of one who has only theoretical knowledge.

 

Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami speaks of the transfer of the guru's spiritual experience through the mantra in this way: "Externally we cannot recognize what potency is there. It cannot be detected. What is that? Only the man (guru) who gives it--his realization--is the potency within the sound."

 

Therefore, giving diksa requires realization, brahma nistham. Furthermore, diksa also requires fertile soil, and thus it is incumbent on the guru to cultivate the heart of the disciple before imparting the mantra. It is to be given to the faithful soul, not anyone and everyone.

 

Sri Caitanyadeva told Sanatana Goswami that initiation involves full surrender to be complete, at which time the disciple becomes one with Krsna, diksa kale kare tare atma samarpana. He realizes, that is, his qualitative oneness with God, sei kale krsna kare tare atma sama. At that time, the disciple's sadhaka-deha becomes spiritualized, sei deha kara tare cidanandamaya, and continuing to serve in that body, he gains insight into his internal spiritual body in which he engages in Krsna bhajana, aprakrta dehe tanra carana bhajaya. Thus the process of diksa takes time to complete, and it is completed when the disciple realizes sambandha-jnana, clearing his path to bhajana in the stage of asakti. Then the disciple enters bhava-bhakti wherein the insight gained in sadhana-bhakti is further cultivated--the process of churning bhava into prema. Of course, all of this could happen at the very moment that the mantra is imparted as in the case of some of the eternal associates of Mahaprabhu, but for us it will take time.

[Guest guest]

Our paths are just a little different.

--my opinion is simply that it is impossible to us to get out from superficiality without following a spiritual master. And being superficial we need for first a relationship visible also to conditionated persons like us. Then, advancing, we will be able to live others more mystical and transcendental relationships, for first with the guru, then with all devotees and all living beings... and obviously with (so called) "departed acharyas" who are departed only for the materialists

 

"Always remember Krsna and never forget Krsna.""

"Chant the holy name! Chant the holy name!Chant the holy name! There is no other way..there is no other way...there is no other way to achieve God realization in this age of Kali."

Prabhupada taught these instructions.

--now we need to be guided to understand what these instruction mean .. the demonstration is that both of us, knowing the text of such instructions, believe in a different way to implement them in one's life. So, being us sincerely expressing our opinion without any lateral purpose, the conclusion is that we need someone bigger than us to xplain them...: "guru maharaja.. prabhupada recommended such way... me and theist prabhu have different opinions on how apply them and prabhupada's teaching in our life... please give us your mercy and explain.." and the guru will explain and he will give instruction according our karma and guna.. thing that books cannot do, they can give only general instructions.

Personal instructions aren't only marginal details..

 

So that is a valid vaishnava relationship, but not a guru-disciple relationship. We need both kinds

------

Not formally but underlying all material motives there is a desire to assume what one considers the higher position.

---this pervertion is even when we approach a spiritual master. This does not mean that approaching a guru ends there.. advancing everything will occupy his own place. The same thing in sadhu sanga... learning is unavoidable, teaching is unavoidable, and it is unavoidable also to exchange realizations between practitioneers at the same level

 

even the guru teachs to disciples, learns from his guru and exchanges realizations with godbrothers.. three kind of different relationship, every one natural and necessary

[theist]

 

"Always remember Krsna and never forget Krsna.""

"Chant the holy name! Chant the holy name!Chant the holy name! There is no other way..there is no other way...there is no other way to achieve God realization in this age of Kali."

 

Prabhupada taught these instructions.

--now we need to be guided to understand what these instruction mean .. the demonstration is that both of us, knowing the text of such instructions, believe in a different way to implement them in one's life.

 

 

Yes guidance means siksa. "Personal" darshans, books, tapes, letters, phone calls, whatever way such guidance and help comes to us.

 

Do we really believe in a different way to implement these instructions? I am not so sure. The implementation I see as very straight forward. I try to focus on what I see as the essence of these instructions. To "chant the holy names" means to chant to holy names. "There is no other way" means drop to all faith in any other process and apply full faith to the chanting.

 

I try to see it in it's stark simplicity. The concise essential truth of the statement.

 

Now above I made the statement that I viewed this devotional path as very narrow like a razors edge and simultaneously wide enough to accomodate all varieties inherent in us as separate jivas. How is that? The narrowness in this case is adhering to the message that there is "no other way" than the chanting the holy names. The broadness is in allowing for the diversity of individual ways this chanting can appear into the lives and practices of those who take it up.

 

Unity in diversity.

 

Some gurus may assign 16 rounds to their disciples. Others 14. others 4. Still others 64. Isn't each spiritual master free to impose his own requirements on his own personal disciples? But the point is always chanting. None will mind if they have a disciple who chants 24 hours.

 

The problems come when the students and disciples from one camp try to impose what they have been taught onto some other camp. That they have no right to do. It just creates a disturbance and the friction found in the bamboo forest. It can burn down essence of the whole structure that has form for preaching the Hare Krsna movement. the forms may survie in some way but the essence will be lost due to the inevitable aparadhas.

 

Same with this may guru is better than your guru nonense that is flying around. Or the "my guru is living and yours isn't talk" that is not only incorrect but painful to many.

 

Consider this an excuse for even having to mention it. You said you see the vapuh for of your spiritual master one or two weeks for the year and that inspires you. No doubt it does. But that leaves 50 or 51 weeks of the rest of the year year when you are expect to be inspired by and take shelter of his vani. And of those two weeks how many hours are you directing (in common terms) receiving his darshan. 1 or 2 a day? So maybe from those two weeks in a year you really only absorb 24 hours, 1 days worth of viewing his vapuh form. And even while listening to his lectures is it not his vani that he is imparting to you even while you are seated there looking at him. I am including his recitationof pastimes etc. and not just speaking of specific instructions or as you say chastisments.

 

The rest of the waking time you are enjoying all the association of your Godbrothers and discussing the vani that you have received.

 

The congregation with your Guru and Godbrothers is of course priceless and you are correct in placing it in such high value for your life. I am not trying to discount that. That is certainly your great good fortune.

 

But why is it so valuable to be in such situations? because of the quality of the sound vibration. If the teacher just spoke on auto mechanics or some other mundane topic then he would not be a Krsna conscious medium. And if you congragated with the same folks but Krsna conscious sound vibration was not present it would not be inspiring to you.

 

The point is Krsna conscious sound vibration is the essence of the thing. And we require that sound vibration to be coming from one who is filled with love for Krsna and who is transcendentaly situated.

 

So the living that we seek is found in the quality of the sound vibration. That is the quintessence of the matter.

 

"Thou art living still in sound"

 

I would not want to be found arguing against or trying to diminish in someway this statement from Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

[Guest guest]

Yes guidance means siksa. "Personal" darshans, books, tapes, letters, phone calls, whatever way such guidance and help comes to us.

--i agree.. with the "(not so) technical" exception of books, tapes, letters. They're shastra, and as all shastra they are effective together with guru and sadhus.

Guru is not a substitude for shastra, shastra is not a substitude for guru.

 

I try to focus on what I see as the essence of these instructions. To "chant the holy names" means to chant to holy names. "There is no other way" means drop to all faith in any other process and apply full faith to the chanting.

--many answers... one is that as you have pointed before these instructions are given by a master, srila prabhupada, otherwise they were absolutely unknown for the 99% of the world population. Another thing to say is that prabhupada, to implement such simple instructions has build a huge religious movement instructing disciples directly in many details with general instructions and, very important thing, with innumerable instructions specifically tailored for guna and karma of the sisya in that exact time, place and circumstance.

 

and this is absolutely required, general instruction, chant hare krsna, and specific philosophical or practical teaching to make us able to chant for the whole life

 

(we have seen, also in this discussion (sometime he says that diksa is real initiation, sometime he says that harinama is real initiation), how prabhupada gave also opposite instructions to allow opposite personalities to advance in spiritual life

 

--

 

Some gurus may assign 16 rounds to their disciples. Others 14. others 4. Still others 64. Isn't each spiritual master free to impose his own requirements on his own personal disciples? But the point is always chanting.

--that's the demonstration that general instructions given by previous acharyas are not enough. We need someone who sees krsna and who sees our real essence and who can decide wich is the specific lifestyle that will make us (and maybe only us) advance...

 

The problems come when the students and disciples from one camp try to impose what they have been taught onto some other camp.

--it is a shame... forbidden by even by vaishnava etiquette that advices to keep our own guru secret moreas possible to avoid conflicts and envy

 

You said you see the vapuh for of your spiritual master one or two weeks for the year and that inspires you. No doubt it does. But that leaves 50 or 51 weeks of the rest of the year year when you are expect to be inspired by and take shelter of his vani. And of those two weeks how many hours are you directing (in common terms) receiving his darshan. 1 or 2 a day? So maybe from those two weeks in a year you really only absorb 24 hours, 1 days worth of viewing his vapuh form.

--all your considerations are right, but this for me is a demonstration of how vapu is important. How even a little quantity of direct association can be the fuel of months and days of remembering and devotion. I am not a vaishnava, so it is better if you consider the example from many prabhupada's disciples who are constantly enlivened by even a word, a glance received personally by his divine grace in the far seventies

 

But why is it so valuable to be in such situations? because of the quality of the sound vibration. If the teacher just spoke on auto mechanics or some other mundane topic then he would not be a Krsna conscious medium. And if you congragated with the same folks but Krsna conscious sound vibration was not present it would not be inspiring to you.

--it is not possible to discriminate between bhagavatam and bhagavata person. Bhagavatam can be transmitted to krsna conscious practitioneers by people who actually never stops to be connected even when they speak of "ordinary" life.

So the "vapu" situation is everything, text, speech, emotion, movements, expression, presence.. even silence if the pure devotee chooses to be silent, even to hear him speaking strange languages like hindi andi bengali but we remain there to show submission and love to the gurudeva and to be blessed by the sound vibration even if our material mind does not understand a single term.

Prabhupada's disciples have tons of episodes like these to remember and to tell us... them too are essential, in spiritual reality there's no essential and superficial. everything is essential.

We have to live Krsna consciousness in the same way Prabhupada's disciples lived .. pure master, pure association, pure listening, pure presence,pure everything

 

harekrsna prabhu!