is there eternal hell fire for the unsaved?

[muralidhar_das]

Theist:<blockquote>

Muralidhar, I am wondering how lieteraly you accept the Varaha incarnation of Vishnu and the whole falling of the earth planet into the universal ocean? Also a myth?

</blockquote>

 

There is a realm of "mind-stuff" above the material, physical plane of existence. In the beginning of the world, the earth arises out of the "waters of devastation", lifted into the light of day by Lord Narayana, who appears in a form with the features of a forest animal. Varaha.

 

Before the earth came into being, Hiranyaksa and his brother Hiranyakasipu was living. All the devas were living in the ethereal realm. I have no problem seeing the Varaha-avatara story as a fact.

 

Theist, I appreciate your view of Christianity and that you can find good things in the Bible, which are inspirational. I have always had a great deal of respect for you personally, through all these years of "cyber conversations". But I find the following facts of history to be undeniable:

1) Constantine used to be a follower of Mithraism

2) After Nicea there was an incorporation of myths about "December 25", "virgin birth", and "rising from the tomb", "sunday is the sabbath" and so forth into the Romanized Christian religion.

3) Constantine established a state religion of Christianity, which was the ONLY RELIGION of the empire, and people who had alternative religious views were persecuted.

4) Christians like to say they were persecuted, "fed to the lions", which is true. But in the next period, after the deal was struck with Constantine, the leading Christians used the power they were given to persecute followers of other faiths. The Christians arose as a political power in the 4th century, and ever since then they have not been "meek" but instead they have been crusaders against people of other faiths.

 

Further, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur wrote many things about Christianity. About Adam and eve and Satan, etc., and I accept his view of things. He said the myth about "atonenemt for mankind's sins through the crucifixion of God" is a story that he could not accept as true.

[muralidhar_das]

Theist,

 

What do you think about the "virgin birth", "december 25" and "resurrection" and other similarities between Mithraism and Christianity?

 

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithras

 

In this document uchicago.edu, it discusses the archeological and other evidence which prove that in Persia, 200 years before Christ was born, the Mithras cult follwers believed their god Mithras was born of a"virgin birth", on "december 25" and that he was buried in a tomb and then had a "resurrection from the dead"

 

 

Apparently, Constantine was opposed to Mithraism because Mithraism originated in Persia and Persia was the arch-enemy of Rome.

[theist]

I don't know. I have never thought that Dec 25 was the actual appearance day. To me it doesn't matter. Nor do I accept the Bible as the actual words of God to mankind. But then nor do I accept that the SB is beyond questioning a literal interpretation of. It is not enough to critique others books of knowledge and not do the same with one's own. That is my point.

 

What is the difference between you quoting what you read in the SB about Varaha as proof and someone quoting the Bible? Don't misunderstand I in no way accept the Bible as on par with the SB. The SB is unique in the world.

 

I have found a great reluctance of devotees to take an honest look at many statements in the SB having placed their faith there. But I view that as a faulty foundation on which to build and almost certain to crash down at some point.

 

Haribol Muralidhar prabhu

[muralidhar_das]

Theist,

 

I appreciate your view on this point (and on many others).

 

Like you, I also feel we need to be sensible when we read statements in the scriptures, be they stories of Noah and the Ark, or of Varaha and the earth-goddess he lifted from the sea. But for me there is a clear message in Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's writings, most specially Sri Krishna Samhita and Tattva Viveka/ Tattva sutra, which allow me to reconcile modern day thinking and the stories of the Veda.

 

I happen to be one of the people who think the earth we are standing on is not flat, or shaped like a lotus.

 

[theist]

You know I have never read Krsna Samhita or Tattva Viveka and I have had them on my shelf for over three years. Now seems like a good time if I don't get distracted.

[Guest guest]

If Matadevi focused more on Jesus Christ instead of Hell,it would be great.

 

Focus on Jesus Consciousness instead of Hell Consciousness.

[Kulapavana]

the picture of Lord Varaha lifting Earth globe out of the bottom of the universe is certainly allegorical and somewhat misleading. According to some, Lord Varaha was actually lifting not the planet Earth as we see her with our senses, but the entire Bhu-mandala plane of existence, of which our planet is but a small part.

 

In our Gaudiya tradition there is very little emphasis on understanding the structure and material workings of the Universe as described by the Vedas. well, for that matter, this part of Vedic knowledge is pretty much lost in Kali-yuga: all we have is some descriptions that no one seems to really understand.

 

Srila Prabhupada wanted his scientifically trained disciples to study the Vedas in depth and present the Vedic knowledge in a form understandable to people in general. but alas, it is a very difficult task, and not much has been accomplished.

 

as to being "sensible" about such matters: sensibilities vary, and depend on the level of understanding. to a person who experienced ghosts it is perfectly sensible to believe in them - to others, such sensibility may seem like a foolishness. Nagas can come out of the ground here on earth from their own world (planet) - there are countless stories all over the world illustrating that, not just the Vedas. Is that sensible? for me it makes perfect sense - for others it may be a fairy tale.

[theist]

A post I put up last evening seems to have mysteriously disappeared. I must have not hit the continue button.

 

The point was short and simple. In response to the post by guest on matadevi needing to be Christ conscious instead of hell conscious I simply agreed. Adding that Christians should chant the names of Christ, praying to Jesus unceasingly for mercy and to reveal the nature of the Father. Along with this they should stop slaughtering the Lord's helpless creatures.

 

 

[Guest guest]

In these modern times we have been conditioned to accept certain parametres of reality according to the information our consciousness is fed because the vast majority of the populous is no longer indiginous, we no longer have the tales from most indiginous cultures passed down to us from the elders, rather, we are fed on a steady stream of increasingly confusing and conflicting information, regardless of the internet and technology our lives are restricted to confined spaces and a certain programming that narrows our faith to provable reality instead of the infinite possibilities of the visionaries of old, like Sukadev Goswani or the Aboriginal elders of the Dreamtime in Australia, Sharmans etc, who would be considered totally bananas if they walked amongst us today.

The reality they perceived was a flow of consciousness that descended to them unhindered or interupted by 21th century distractions their environment was simple organic and uncluttered, with the maze of mixed conceptions it is today.

Srila Sridhara Maharaj has often explained, "The world, your world is in your mind." Most of the inhabitants of this modern world are destroying the vision of the adhoksaja plane by indulging in intoxication, sex, meat eating and other political reactions of these transgressions or diversions.

For that vision to be entered one must be a Goswami probably for some prolonged length of time, if not a lifelong control of the senses, and thru this adherence to the will of the Lord a different insight of Gods whole Kingdom may be granted.

Then our life becomes a constant revelation of the infinite miracles that abound in every atom like a non-stop George Lucas epic, not only the present realities beyond the screen of our material vision are there to behold, but all the eternal pastimes also like a holigraphic library of the history of the cinema being there for us at any given moment, even tho all these actors no longer exist in their previous forms. So thru social restraint and insincerity we are forced to be preoccupied with the present reality we have on our plate, rather than just dropping it all and giving all our time, attention, faith and love to the centre and source of wonder... Swayam Bhagavan. Not that we can't enter the Absolute reality at any time, it's just that we get enamoured or seduced by the present phantasmogoria, and that takes our attention from the nitya lila of the most attractive synthesis of all existence.... Sri Krsna Reality the beautiful.

 

Some are fascinated with the vision of hell, the mystical realm of ghosts, or the demigods I just want to assist the servants of my divine master making tasteful arrangements to please their beloved sweet friend.

[muralidhar_das]

<blockquote>

as to being "sensible" about such matters: sensibilities vary, and depend on the level of understanding. to a person who experienced ghosts it is perfectly sensible to believe in them - to others, such sensibility may seem like a foolishness. Nagas can come out of the ground here on earth from their own world (planet) - there are countless stories all over the world illustrating that, not just the Vedas. Is that sensible? for me it makes perfect sense - for others it may be a fairy tale.

</blockquote>

I fully agree.

 

I think the worst things happen when people take a "fundamentalist" approach to things they read about in the scriptures. Someone reads that many demons have red hair, so they become prejudiced against all people with red hair. We need to use our intelligence, when we read books. This is what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur taught. In Sri Krishna Samhita, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that the people of South India were regarded as "monkeys" by others, and thus that Hanuman and Sugriva etc were described as monkeys, with tails, when they were in fact human beings.

[theist]

BTW just out of curiousity what color is your hair Muralidhar? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[muralidhar_das]

Blonde, going grey. I have a German/Irish family tree. If you shake my family tree some Nazis will fall out. My son Nitai has red hair. Srila B.S. Govinda Maharaj said one day, "That boy is a kshatriya".

[theist]

I thought I remember you saying you had red hair some years back. Looks like I missed on that one.

 

I never heard that about red heads. Where the hell do they get that?

 

I'm a real mutt genetically. Scot/Irish German American Indian and Jewish.

 

Speaking of shaking the family tree I might have some Nazis in there too. My great-grandfather was a cattle rustle who sold stolen cows to the railroad. He was caught but not hung because the railroad intervened but he was run out of the state. Forgot which one.

 

I've been called a demon because I hold to a vegan diet. LOL

[Guest guest]

No Nazis in your tree Theist da furor would never allow such a mix, only pure Aryans in his campf.

There was once a painting of a redheaded demon in one of those Iskcon paintings I think that was an Ozzie speculation from someones logic after seeing that artistic impression, very authentic. Then again I also heard it came from the redheaded vikings being so fervent in their relationships.

What blood do you relate to most, if that's not a rude question Prabhu? For some reason I can relate to your mix.

 

What concerns me is when I think of where I'd most likely be attracted to take birth again, I'd like to have the mood of Srila Bhaktivinode but I may have to go where I deserve.

 

You're lucky you still got some hair Murali it's gettin' harder to keep a sika together these days on this melon.

[Kulapavana]

"In Sri Krishna Samhita, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that the people of South India were regarded as "monkeys" by others, and thus that Hanuman and Sugriva etc were described as monkeys, with tails, when they were in fact human beings."

 

well... some of the early writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are highly controversial in our Gaudiya circles, and later on he himself dramatically changed views on several subjects, so we should be cautious quoting from his early works.

 

Some Vaishnava scholars think Hanuman and Sugriva had humanoid (part ape, part human) bodies. 2 million years ago humanoid tribes lived side by side with humans and the fossil record bears that out.

 

[Kulapavana]

there are quite a few passages in the Vedas describing demons called out from the underworld during special (revenge) sacrifices as having red hair (copper like). perhaps that species of living entities looks like that. who knows, maybe they were able to breed with humans just like the Naga snakes and Vikings were their descendants /images/graemlins/smile.gif (thinking about the Viking beserkers one cant help but notice the similarity)...

[muralidhar_das]

Kulapavana wrote:

<blockquote>

<blockquote>quote of muralidhar:

"In Sri Krishna Samhita, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says that the people of South India were regarded as "monkeys" by others, and thus that Hanuman and Sugriva etc were described as monkeys, with tails, when they were in fact human beings."</blockquote>

well... some of the early writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura are highly controversial in our Gaudiya circles, and later on he himself dramatically changed views on several subjects, so we should be cautious quoting from his early works.

</blockquote>

Sometimes I feel ashamed that I am acting like a "know it all" but the truth is, I feel disturbed and I feel an urge to express my opinion when I see devotees getting disturbed by false ideologies, such as the belief that there is an eternal hell or that the earth is flat.

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami published the book "Sri Krishna Samhita" in the early years of his preaching mission, then (according to Srila Sridhar Mahara) when the edition was out of print he had it reprinted in a second edition. It was a book that the senior devotees of Sri Gaudiya Math studied and discussed. In the books of B.P.Tirtha, Professor Sanyal, B.S.Goswami, Srial Sridhar Maharaj and others they discuss and affirm the key ideas presented in "Sri Krishna Samhita"

 

Kulapavana, I read on another thread where you were talking about Srimad Bhagavatam and you said that it probably was written in its present form about 1500 years ago. Srila Sridhar Maharaj discussed this on one tape I heard, and he said that Srimad Bhagavatam probably was written (in its present form) in the 8th century in South India, as there are a number of references in Bhagavatam which point to it being written in this period. This, of course, is one of the "highly controversial" ideas that have come to us via Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami himself taught a "modernist" view of things, just like what is presented in "Sri Krishna Samhita". We see the main points in "Sri Krishna Samhita" are also presented in the writings of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami. In fact I can show you many references in the writings of Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami where he affirms all the several "highly controversial" ideas of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur presented in "Sri Krishna Samhita". He didn't differ from the approach of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

This discussion don't really relate to this thread about "hell" so I won't post anything more about it here. Excepte that I will mention that in "The Bhagavat Lecture" Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said this:

<blockquote>

In the common-place books of the Hindu religion... there are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his 'Paradise Lost' . These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry.

</blockquote>

 

I asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj about this quote and he told me hell exists in the mind and perceptions of people. Heaven and hell are states of mind.

 

Also, in regard to "monkeys", take a look at this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1027_041027_homo_floresiensis.html

 

[theist]

>>>No Nazis in your tree Theist da furor would never allow such a mix, only pure Aryans in his campf.

There was once a painting of a redheaded demon in one of those Iskcon paintings I think that was an Ozzie speculation from someones logic after seeing that artistic impression, very authentic. <<<

 

Yeah no way they would have left me around but my grandfather was pure Germanic and my grandmother pure Jewish. I have wondered if that was the reason they left Germany and imigrated to Canada.

 

I seem to remember some demon being called copper haired. Real dark skinned people are supposed to be demonic ala the dude Pariksit came upon attacking Bhumi and Dharma. Another beautifully presented allegory IMO. But then Vyasadeva was said to be dark skinned what to speak of Krsna so that blows that. Hairy chested men are supposed to be lower somehow then along comes Bhaktisiddhanta.

 

I think it better if we just forget all such attempts to externally read others and concentrate on trying to internally read ourselves.

 

You asked what I identify with the most. Fortunately none of them. I still identify with the general caucasion label though.That will fade, hopefully before death.

 

Too many false id's to eliminate one by one. I just need to know myself as I am.

 

[theist]

>>>Sometimes I feel ashamed that I am acting like a "know it all" but the truth is, I feel disturbed and I feel an urge to express my opinion when I see devotees getting disturbed by false ideologies, such as the belief that there is an eternal hell or that the earth is flat.<<<

 

If you know you must speak. To remain silent in such cases to appear humble is not humility.

 

I often go to a Evangelical Christian Debate Forum and blast them on this point of eternal damnation. The whole idea is an offense to the Lord to say He has such a character. They portray Him as the ultimate child abuser, sadistic to the ultimate degree. They must be challeged. They create atheists with that nonsense.

 

Until they get a grasp on aham bramasmi, transmigration, and karma they will have no working understanding on how things are happening in this world.

 

I have yet to see any Christian admit they are wrong though but several other visitors have expressed that their faith in God has been renewed abit from seeing from that perspective.

 

The fanatical Christians? Not likely. So speak through them to the listeners.

 

[Guest guest]

I agree the Krsna das ID is all that counts it's just a fascination in all of us how we got to where we are now. Then devotees may well have got under the radar thru reincarnation, coming straight from a previous Indian birth, into the west, to get this connection. Anything is possible with transmigration, even monkey mixing mania. Who knows?

We have to see the bright side of any culture, like people for what they're worth, not the down side or we're all doomed if we relate to it..

 

Sounds like it was lucky your grandfolks got to exit when they did, they say lifes all about timing.

 

We may not be able to give our gurus vani perfectly but I heard Guru Maharaj say we can't not give what has been given to us, as this would constitute ingratitude, of course his example was different from ours, but still that is his word, I think he meant that by giving gradually our faults will dissolve. What to do?

[Guest guest]

 

Kulapavana, I read on another thread where you were talking about Srimad Bhagavatam and you said that it probably was written in its present form about 1500 years ago. Srila Sridhar Maharaj discussed this on one tape I heard, and he said that Srimad Bhagavatam probably was written (in its present form) in the 8th century in South India, as there are a number of references in Bhagavatam which point to it being written in this period. This, of course, is one of the "highly controversial" ideas that have come to us via Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

 

I'm just browsing casually when I noticed this. I wanted to clarify this and ask some obviously relevant questions.

 

The Bhagavatam itself describes its composition by Vyasa near the beginning of the Kali Yuga. Is this not a contradiction for someone to suggest it was written in 8th century?

 

What actual evidence in the Bhagavatam points to its having been composed in 8th century? Specifics, please.

 

How can you take something to be a religious scripture if it has falsified details of its own origin? Logically, if a scripture "lies," then you could not tell where it is telling the truth and where it is lying.

 

Now please, I don't intend for this last question to be responded to by the typical ISKCON rabble for whom truth is determined based on how good it makes you feel. Let us look at the argument logically.

 

Thanks.

 

Raghu

[muralidhar_das]

I don't have much time to spend on this at the moment. But anyway:

 

If you open Srimad Bhagavatam at the start, you see the first three verses then this verse:

<blockquote>SB 1.1.4: Once, in a holy place in the forest of Naimisha-ranya, great sages headed by the sage Saunaka assembled to perform a great thousand-year sacrifice for the satisfaction of the Lord and His devotees.

</blockquote>

Then after the sages ask their questions, Suta Goswami begins speaking, and tells about Vyasa, Sukadev and Narada, etc.

 

The question arises, who is speaking to us in verse SB 1.1.4. It is not Vyasa. Vyasa enters the story later:

 

<blockquote>SB 1.4.14: Su-ta Gosva-mi- said: When the second millennium overlapped the third, the great sage [Vya-sadeva] was born to Para-s'ara in the womb of Satyavati-, the daughter of Vasu.

 

SB 1.4.15: Once upon a time he [Vya-sadeva], as the sun rose, took his morning ablution in the waters of the Sarasvati- and sat alone to concentrate.

 

SB 1.4.16: The great sage Vya-sadeva saw anomalies in the duties of the millennium. This happens on the earth in different ages, due to unseen forces in the course of time.

 

SB 1.4.17-18: The great sage, who was fully equipped in knowledge, could see, through his transcendental vision, the deterioration of everything material, due to the influence of the age. He could also see that the faithless people in general would be reduced in duration of life and would be impatient due to lack of goodness. Thus he contemplated for the welfare of men in all statuses and orders of life</blockquote>

 

So, there is another voice speaking to us. Speaking the Bhagavatam to us. And according to Srila Sridhar Maharaj that person lived in the eighth century A.D.

[muralidhar_das]

Raghu said:

<blockquote>

How can you take something to be a religious scripture if it has falsified details of its own origin? Logically, if a scripture "lies," then you could not tell where it is telling the truth and where it is lying.

</blockquote>

I'm not sure what the basis is, of this statement about the Bhagavat and some supposed "falsified details of its own origin". My reading is, the Bhagavatam itself speaks of the Naimisha forest sages and Vyasa in the "third person", or in other words it speaks of them, and repeats the sages statements.

 

Mahaprabhu accepted the Bhagavatam as the essence of all truth, for it gives us a proper understanding of how to rise up from mundane consciousness to the stage of Krishna Prema.

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says, furthermore:

<blockquote>

The souls of the great thinkers of the by-gone ages, who now live spiritually, often

approach our inquiring spirit and assist it in its development. Thus Vy.sa was

assisted by N.rada and Brahm.. Our ½astras, or in other words, books of thought

do not contain all that we could get from the infinite Father. No book is without

its errors. GodÕs revelation is absolute truth, but it is scarcely received and

preserved in its natural purity. We have been advised in the 14th Chapter of

11th skandha of the Bhagavata to believe that truth when revealed is absolute, but

it gets the tincture of the nature of the receiver in course of time and is

converted into error by continual exchange of hands from age to age. New

revelations, therefore, are continually necessary in order to keep truth in its

original purity. We are thus warned to be careful in our studies of old authors,

however wise they are reputed to be. Here we have full liberty to reject the

wrong idea, which is not sanctioned by the peace of conscience. Vy.sa was not

satisfied with what he collected in the Vedas, arranged in the Pur.ºas and

composed in the Mah.bharata. The peace of his conscience did not sanction his

labors. It told him from inside Ò No, Vyasa! you canÕt rest contented with the

erroneous picture of truth which was necessarily presented to you by the sages

of by-gone days! You must yourself knock at the door of the inexhaustible store

of truth from which the former ages drew their wealth. Go, go up to the

Fountain-head of truth where no pilgrim meets with disappointment of any

kind. Vy.sa did it and obtained what he wanted. We have been all advised to

do so. Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most

valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived

and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get further truths

which are still undiscovered. In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th skandha of the

Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the shastras and not the words.

The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love.

</blockquote>

 

 

 

[shvu]

 

The Bhagavatam itself describes its composition by Vyasa near the beginning of the Kali Yuga. Is this not a contradiction for someone to suggest it was written in 8th century?

 

 

From a traditional perspective, the start date of Kaliyuga is a matter of speculation as no one really knows. From a non-traditional approach, there is no Kaliyuga at all.

 

Coming to the SB -- from a traditional perspective -- the SB was not really authored by Vyasa and it was most definitely not written by him. It was not authored by him as the SB itself says it was originally spoken among the Gods. It was not written by Vyasa as the SB again clearly is a narration by A who heard it from B who heard it from C and so on. Vyasa is somewhere up in the chain. So, why is Vyasa's name associated with the SB at all? He figures in because he is the one who revealed this text to humans, but this does not make him the author. It should be clear that there can be no meaningful date assignments to the SB (traditionally that is). What are we trying to date here? The origin is timeless, Vyasa was not the author and so his date is not relevant. The unknown gentleman who finally put the text in written form was merely a scribe and therefore his date is inconsequential.

 

From a modern, critical, rational perspective, when the puranas are studied critically, it is apparent that they were not written by one author or even by a single generation. They have been rehashed over the centuries several times until no clear origin can be assigned to them and therefore no one really tries their hand at it. What is possible is to assign "end dates" to them and this is what is tried. Without going into details, this kind of research gives the final form of the SB a date between 600 AD - 800 AD. The major factors that go into dating (the end date) are that it is post Ashoka (and hence, post Buddhist as are all Puranas), but before the trend of Radha worship (she is not mentioned in any of the old Krishan related texts such as Mahabharatha, Vishnu Purana, Hari Vamsha & SB) and the fact that the Sri Vaishnava founder (11th century) has not quoted from this text although it contains plenty of support for his doctrine.

 

As an aside, the proposed 5000 year old date for Vyasa has no basis in scripture and it is not required for people to accept it (Vyasa never dates himself in any of his works). From a realistic position -- when all possibilities are taken into account, based on all the evidence we have in hand today -- the 5000 year old is impossible.

 

 

Cheers

[muralidhar_das]

After reading the post above, I would just like to say that while I feel the Bhagavat in its present form was written down about a thousand years ago, I do fully believe in the message it presents:

<blockquote>

Completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, this Bhagavata Purana propounds the highest truth, which is understandable by those devotees who are fully pure in heart. The highest truth is reality distinguished from illusion for the welfare of all. Such truth uproots the threefold miseries. This beautiful Bhagavatam, compiled by the great sage Vyasadeva [in his maturity], is sufficient in itself for God realization. What is the need of any other scripture? As soon as one attentively and submissively hears the message of Bhagavatam, by this culture of knowledge the Supreme Lord is established within his heart.

-Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.2

</blockquote>