Guest guest Posted May 22, 2005 Report Share Posted May 22, 2005 Haribol, I am going to cause a lot of offence by suggesting the following, but in Srimad Bhagavatam, Lord Brahma says he knows Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman beyond the cosmic manifestation (SB 4.6.42). In the purport, Srila Prabhupada says that Lord Brahma is saying so because in their original positions, Lord Vishnu and Lord Shiva are identical. I thought it is important to take the scripture as it is. If Lord Brahma is worshipping Lord Shiva as the Supreme Brahman, then why is it wrong for others to do so? Lord Brahma addresses Lord Shiva: "My dear Lord, devotees who have fully dedicated their lives unto your lotus feet certainly observe your presence as Paramatma in each and every being" SB 4.6.46 Does this mean both Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna are Paramatma? I thought the Paramatma is one? Therefore how can both be Paramatma? I would appreciate some enlightenment on this matter. Hare Krishna, Your Servant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted May 23, 2005 Report Share Posted May 23, 2005 Im not an expert in this subject and am going to say what I've heard and read so take with a pinch of salt. From what I understand bramha is worshipping shiva knowing him in his original form as an expansion of sankarsana. This sankarshan as far as I know is where the 3 vishnus are expanded from, and from maha vishnu the main siva expands from his glance to impregnate material nature (durga devi) then he resides in between the spirtual and material worlds (then a shiva in every universe expands). The orginal shiva is sankarsana (sada shiva???) in vaikuntha who is the cause of the expansions of 3 vishnu and shiva, including krsidaksha vishna in every heart. Therefore in his original form shiva is also paramatma. Thats the way I've understood it and may need to be corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 in bhagvatam 8.7.21 prabhupada says this about shiva "Since Lord Siva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Visnu? Lord Brahma creates, and Lord Siva annihilates, but both Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are incarnations of Lord Visnu and are known as saktyavesa-avataras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Visnu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Siva, actually Lord Visnu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Siva is meant for destruction. Lord Siva is one of the isvaras, or the controllers known as saktyavesa-avataras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Visnu." HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The next purports also go on to explain shiva in more detail. Heres 8.7.29 The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Purusa, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojata, (4) Vamadeva, and (5) Isana. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Siva, who is therefore celebrated as Siva or Mahadeva. Another reason why Lord Siva is called Siva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Visnu, who is the Paramatma. Because Lord Siva is directly an incarnation of Lord Visnu, he is situated as Lord Visnu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patim visvasyatmesvaram sasvatam. sivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Mahesvara, Siva and Acyuta are especially mentioned. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada In purport 8.7.33 Srila prabhupada goes on to say that ordinary persons should not try to understand Lord shiva and his activities, In CC. Adi 6.79 srila prabhupada says the following in the purport (advisable to read all of it as he talks about different rudras) In the Puranas it is found that Durga appears sometimes from the heads of Brahma and sometimes from the heads of Visnu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sankarsana and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vayu Purana there is a description of Sadasiva in one of the Vaikuntha planets. That Sadasiva is a direct expansion of Lord Krsna's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadasiva (Lord Sambhu) is an expansion from the Sadasiva in the Vaikuntha planets (Lord Visnu) and that his consort, Mahamaya, is an expansion of Ramadevi, or Laksmi. Mahamaya is the origin or birthplace of material nature. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Since the position of shiva is different than other living entities he is described as paramatma as in his original form which expands from sankarsana in vaikuntha he is the cause of paramatma. It is mentioned in the bahgvatam that shiva is also the greatest devotee and that he meditates on sankarshan(Vishnu). He is also know as gopesvar as he entered the rasa lila of krishna. Sometimes you'll find demigods glorifying shiva sometimes saying he is even greater than lord vishnu, in some cases its due to the devotee being seen as more merciful than the lord himself just like radharani and others, however in some case if seen in context for example during the churning of the milk ocean poison was released and they apporached shiva and in desperation glorified him so he will help them, like krishna says some living entities pray to the demigods for their intelligence is stolen by material desires, and therefore they will see the demigod as the highest. (I think prabhupada talks about this in bhagvatam 8.7.30) Just as even narada muni once used to think that bramha was the greatest until bramha reveiled that there is someone higher than me. Thats the way I've understood it and my understanding definately has mistakes as siva tattva, guru tatva, mercy and a few other things are very difficult to comprehend. Hope it helps. YS Vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2005 Report Share Posted May 24, 2005 Besides all of the above-mentioned fifty qualities, Lord Krsna possesses five more, which are sometimes partially manifested in the persons of Lord Brahma or Lord Siva. These transcendental qualities are as follows: (51) changeless; (52) all-cognizant; (53) ever fresh; (54) sac-cid-ananda (possessing an eternal blissful body); (55) possessing all mystic perfections. Krsna also possesses five other qualities, which are manifest in the body of Narayana, and they are listed as follows. (56) He has inconceivable potency. (57) Uncountable universes generate from His body. (58) He is the original source of all incarnations. (59) He is the giver of salvation to the enemies whom He kills. (60) He is the attractor of liberated souls. All these transcendental qualities are manifest wonderfully in the personal feature of Lord Krsna. Besides these sixty transcendental qualities, Krsna has four more, which are not manifest even in the Narayana form of Godhead, what to speak of the demigods or living entities. They are as follows. (61) He is the performer of wonderful varieties of pastimes (especially His childhood pastimes). (62) He is surrounded by devotees endowed with wonderful love of Godhead. (63) He can attract all living entities all over the universes by playing on His flute. (64) He has a wonderful excellence of beauty which cannot be rivaled anywhere in the creation. Adding to the list these four exceptional qualities of Krsna, it is to be understood that the aggregate number of qualities of Krsna is sixty-four. Srila Rupa Gosvami has attempted to give evidences from various scriptures about all sixty-four qualities present in the person of the Supreme Lord. NoD 21: Qualities of Sri Krsna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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