Do the the faults or sins of the disciple fall on the spiritual master???

[krsna]

From another forum:

 

rAjJi cAmAtyajA doSAH patnI-pApaM sva-bhartari |

tathA ziSyArjitaM pApaM guruH prApnoti nizcitam ||

 

Hari Bhakti Vilasa 1.77

 

 

"The faults of the counselor fall on the king, and the sins of a wife fall on her husband. In the same way a spiritual master attains the sins of his disciple. That is certain."

 

 

What do people think about this verse? Some questions and thoughts I have are:

 

Does it apply to both good & bad karma?

 

That is, does good karma also flow from a counselor to his king, from a wife to her husband, from a disciple to their guru?

 

Does it operate in reverse?

 

I assume it does not operate in reverse, as it would be incongruous to suggest that the sins of a spiritual master would be inflicted on the disciple (for instance if the guru secretly misbehaved).

 

It seems to imply the bad acts of a subordinate negatively impact their superior - perhaps this is because a failure by a king, husband or guru to properly supervise or guide their subordinate is culpable.

 

How can karma be transferred by material affiliations?

 

I find it hard to understand how karma can be transferred merely on the basis of the existence of particular relationships.

 

It seems more in line with the general thrust of Vaisnava siddhanta (namely in the Bhagavad Gita) to assert that each individual is responsible for their own actions.

 

Is the guru-disciple relationship just another dominant-subordinate pattern of material affiliation?

 

The karmic transfers in the guru-disciple case could be justified as transcending normal karmic rules because the guru-disciple relationship aims at transcendence itself.

 

But their analogy in this verse with other material relationships (king-counsellor, husband-wife) troubles me.

 

Why are these three all put in the same category? For me it undermines the transcendental basis of the guru-disciple relationship by comparing it with these other vitiated "mundane" relationships.

 

Or, it elevates these other relationships by presenting them as analogies to the guru-disciple relationship - which also troubles me! /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

Any thoughts?

[Guest guest]

gurur na sa syat sva-jano na sa syat

pita na sa syaj janani na sa syat

daivam na tat syan na patis ca sa syan

na mocayed yah samupeta-mrtyum

 

One who cannot deliver his dependents from repeated birth and death should never become a guru, a relative, a father, mother, demigod, or husband.

 

As I see it and also experience it Prabhu is that definately yes, the good bad ugly and beautiful pure deeds flow on to the family members, as it is stated so many generations back and forward are liberated by one who becomes a pure devotee.

We may not nesacarily become an official or formal guru but if one becomes a vaisnava the flow on effect is there for all our relatives, ancestors etc. consciously or unconsciously they will receive some pious sukriti. They may not nessacarily embrace the same path, as they have their own evolvment to tread, but the downward spiral can be turned around by the well wishes of the vaisnavas company or even from a distance.

It is natural for a vaisnava to wish all souls well and pray for their eternal wellfare, what to speak of those who have shared much of their journey with them.

Even in family meetings many exchanges can either be life changing or devastating according to the wisdom or ignorance that is shared.

Faith can be made or broken in one meeting with another.

So no doubt if we sin in secret that vibration will have effect just as good works do. Hypocracy benefits nobody.

It is also said the sins of the father visit the son, and I suppose most parents have experienced the heavy weight of ones childrens inauspicious acts. Socially, mentally and spiritually it deeply torments a parent, as they empathize with the suffering of the loved ones in their care, it can destroy families even whole dynasties are affected.

At the same time a great master lifts their disciples up thru mountains of pious activity, they can digest all the sins and transform them through the mystic transmission of the supersoul. It's like the touchstone where all the alloy is dissolved and transformed into gold.

vahni-surya-brahmanebhyas-tejiyan vaisnavah sada

The purifying power of fire, the sun, and the holy brahmanas is eclipsed by the divine power of the Vaisnavas.

 

yan-namam-sruti-matrena puman bhavati nirmalah

tasya tirtha-padah kim va dasanam avasisyate

 

If simply by hearing Sri Krsna's holy Name one becomes supremely purified, who can imagine the purifying power of those who are constantly engaged in service to the lotus feet of the Lord? Is there anything impossible for such a person?

 

Whereas a madyam adhikhari may be dragged down by the intense sin or temptation of others, depending on the degree of grace and surrender.