Do I have a soul or am I a soul???

[krsna]

This is THE question: to be or not to be?

 

Yes?

 

The christians have a notion of possessing an immortal soul that is born and then goes on living forever either in heaven or hell.

 

Whereas the Vedic peoples who practise Sanatana-dharma understand that we are souls who temporarily possess material bodies and they have never taken bith and will never ever remain in either a 'heaven' or 'hell' situation.

 

'I am soul' is a fact eternally; whereas 'I have a soul' is a notion materially.

[Guest guest]

So the soul the Christians have, what does it do?

Does it perform for you while you the seer watch on. Who are you? Who is the observer. This is why they are not realizing their self. If they are looking at themselves objectively thinking they are their body, then obviously they are not experiencing their true identity.

 

A Vaisnava knowing they ARE a soul that has a body is in a consciousness fit to act on it, and further seek out how to utilize that person--ourselves in service to develop those things which build the beauty of our soul, this is real self development, not like some of the new age development that pumps up the false ego, dissmissing the existence of God. For this; a real spiritual master is nessacary to engage the soul in their real eternal activities of loving devotion to the loving devotees of Their Lordships.

Proper identity is that Krsna possessors a servant that is you, Krsna das, we belong to Him, we don't own ourselves, He does! Everything is for Him, and from him and to Him.

 

It's quite bazaar how some of these religions think that they will wait somewhere in the grave untill Christ comes and gives them a place in his kingdom with their loved ones, like in suspended animation. I'm not sure if that is a brahmajhoti sleepover or what, but it may be possible.

I would think there is more chance in your waking state to get out of this quagmire, than in deep slumber.

[Guest guest]

alpa kari' na maniha dasa hena nama

alpa bhagye dasa nahi karena bhagavan

agre haya mukti, tabe sarva-vandha-nasa

tabe se haite pare sri krsnera dasa

 

[sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said] Those who are devoid of a service attitude and don't wish to call themselves "Krsna-dasa," have little good fortune.

The Lord will never accept them as His servants. Let those who would be liberated from material bondage accept the service of Krsna.

(C.Bhag.Mad.17.103-104)

 

 

[Guest guest]

jivera 'svarupa' haya krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti', 'bhedabheda-prakasa

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara 'sakti' haya

jnana-svarupas ca hareradhinam sarira-yoga-viyoga-yogyam

anum hi jivam pratideha-bhinnam jnatrtvavantam yadanantam ahuh

 

The soul is both knower and known, unlimited in number, atomic, and an eternal servant of Krsna. Because of his atomic size he is sometimes enveloped by maya in the form of a material body. Sometimes he is disembodied. In any case, there are innumerable jivas appearing in countless material bodies.

(Nimbarkacarya, Dasa-sloka)

 

The living entity's constitutional position is to be an eternal servant of Krsna. As a manifestation of Krsna's marginal energy he is simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy: cit-sakti, tatastha-sakti, and maya-sakti. (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109)

 

avidyayamastare varttamanah,

svayam dhirah panditammanyamanah

damdramayamanah pariyanti mudha,

andhenaiva niyamana yathandhah

 

Illusioned by ignorance (and thus identifying the gross and subtle bodies as the self), bewildered souls think themselves steady and wise. Baffled by their own conceit they set themselves up as scholars and thus lead other ignorant souls further into darkness. In this way, those blinded by ignorance lead simi-larly blind men into the darkness of oblivion. (Katha Upanisad 1.2.5)

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The word soul is analogous to aatma. And Aatma means your inner self. To understand soul, you must understand identify your three distinct dimensions namely - body, mind and spirit. Body and mind can be easily identified. Spirit is something within you which is neither part of your body nor mind. Spirit is something beyond mind. Again, spirit is not soul. Soul is the part of mind which is nearest to your spirit (chetana). If you take your mind to this highest level, only then you can say - 'I am a soul'. To know more visit -

 

http://www.geocities.com/agyat_theunknown

[Guest guest]

You are soul.

[krsna]

Consider this just once:

 

While you wander in this world,

 

under the control of material desires,

 

what happiness will you achieve in this mundane life?

 

Who are you?

 

Where have you come from?

 

How did you come here?

 

What have you done?

 

And where will you go at the time of death when your body

 

drops?

 

What is the use of so much worldly happiness,

 

distress and fear,

 

which arise from the false egotism of “I”

 

and “mine”?

 

And what is the use of insignificant victory

 

and defeat, anger, violence, and envy toward other living

 

beings?

 

Bhaktivinoda says,

 

“Just take shelter at the lotus

 

feet of Lord Gaurasundara and sing the names of Radha and

 

Krsna, and you will become saturated with the mellows of

 

pure spiritual bliss.”

 

(Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura- Sri Nagar Kirtan, song 3)

[Guest guest]

http://www.dvaita.org/list/list_41/msg00026.html

 

Username and passoword: dvaita

 

[krsna]

 

 

dvaita-list@dvaita.org

Existence & Eternity of souls

Keshav Bhat <keshav_bhat@>

Wed, 1 Aug 2001 06:28:37 -0700 (PDT)

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--

 

The following article is from a publication I was fortunate to have from

Shri Raghupathy Rao of ABMM Madras. I must admit I have not typed it

verbatim, only to remove repetitious statements.

If any members can research the outcome of the court case, it would I’m

sure be a valuable asset! The article goes between (a) primarily

establishing the presence of a soul and (b) to establish the supremacy of

Acharya Madhva’s view over Sankara’s.

 

Article submitted in to the Arizona State Supreme Court, in 1967, which

took up for hearing the will of James Kidd, an Arizona Miner who had

willed $200,000 as a reward to anyone who could prove the existence of

souls.

Authored and Submitted by:

Dr. K. Venkat Rao

Sri Krishna Nilaya

1/29 G. Koil St, Chennai

 

Definition of soul:

 

Souls are ‘finite centers of conscious experience, each with a unique

essence of its own’. The ‘I’ness is the jiva or soul. It is sub-atomic in

size. It’s influence spreads throughout the body it inhabits just as the

ruby spreads its luster. Perception however is no help in establishing its

presence.

 

AnumAna or reasoning (inference) will establish its presence. The greatest

authority to establish its presence is verbal evidence viz., the sacred

books, we refer to as Vedas. Vedas declare the presence of souls, not one

but many innumerable and infinite in numbers.

 

In the Padma Purana one of

the authoritative smritis, the essential nature of the soul is more

definitely stated:

 

“The jiva is an intelligent receptacle having

intelligence as its quality, it is the giver of sentiency to its various

vehicles and beyond Prakriti. It is not subject to modification, it has

one form unchanging in its essence. It is atomic and eternal, having the

quality of pervasion and consisting of knowledge and bliss. It is

designated by the word ‘I’, in unchanging, is the witness and eternal. It

is incombustible, uncleavable, and can neither be wetted or dried away. It

is imperishable. Possessing these attributes it is a part of the Brahmam,

a servant of the Lord. The soul is self-luminous like the flame, but has

additional attributes like self-consciousness.

 

The word ‘amsa’ or part is to be taken in the sense of the subordinate.

When we say ‘Jiva is part of Brahman’ we mean ‘jiva is a subordinate’, not

in the sense of a piece of stone cut off from the rock by a chisel.

Otherwise it will contradict all those tenets which declare Brahman and

soul to be incapable of division and not liable to any change.

 

Sri Madhva gives expression to his concept of the finite self in

Vishnutattvanirnaya in the following verse:

 

“He, who suffers sorrow, enjoys happiness and has the finiteness to be

bound in samsAra and to be released from it is known as the Jiva.

 

He

verily in all states cognises himself as ‘I’ or ‘aham’.

The soul has no beginning or end. It is a permanent entity and infinite in

number. In contrast to prakriti (insentient material), soul is a chetana

(sentient being).

 

The advaita philosophy of Sankara admits one soul only and its size as

being infinite. Some among advaitins admit multiple souls and maintain

their size as infinite. The infinity of souls of infinite size and

infinite God cannot be admitted, because of the impossibility of several

infinite objects existing together. Sankara overcomes this difficulty

because his soul is no other than Brahma and that there are no real souls

in the world!

 

All other systems of philosophy such as Jainism, Puvamimamsa, NyAya,

Vaisesika, yoga and other theistic schools of vedanta such as Ramanuja,

Madhva, Nimbaraka, Vallabha, Chaitanya hold the plurality of souls. They

describe it as being atomic in size and residing in the region of the

heart. But it’s influence is throughout the body it inhabits.

 

The jiva is a dependent entity unlike God, the Infinite Self who is the

only Independent being in the cosmos. The souls are very dependent on God.

 

There are 2 varieties of souls – the liberated and non-liberated. The

former do not get into the cycle of births and deaths. The latter are

entangled in the cycle of births and deaths move from one body to another

till liberation is granted; granted because it is a gift of God endowed to

the soul who has strived for it not in one birth, but in several, leading

a devoted life.

 

For Sankara there is no real separate soul. Ramanuja and others except Sri

Madhva hold the view that all are the souls are alike and all are fit for

liberation. But Madhva maintains that souls are different. They enjoy

bliss to their full capacity, which differs – just as the volume varies

depending on the size of the vessel. The differences we see in this world

is a result of this and past actions (karma). The karma is beginningless

or ‘anadi’. The differences we see cannot be attributed to God, who is

impartial. But in the remotest past, at the beginning of creation all

souls if they were alike should have all been good or all bad, and the

fruits reaped should be alike. Sri Madhwa says, such is not the case and

that some souls are bent on good acts some on bad and others a mixture of

the two. Thus he divided souls into 3 categories.

Souls being sub-atomic in size elude perception and therefore beyond the

ambit of scientific proof. Materialistic aids do not help. But its

presence can be proved by other means or evidences. So is the case with

God. For example, when we see a pot, we immediately think of that it must

have been the creation of a potter, a sentient being. Similarly, when we

see the world we live in, we conclude that it must be the creation of an

all powerful, most intelligent person. Day and night follow regularly, sun

and moon rise and set, seasons change as if following one’s bidding in an

orderly manner. If one reflects on these phenomena, we cannot but conclude

that there must be one omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient master.

God is also seen by great seers in meditation. He reveals Himself to them.

Their testimony to the presence of God has to be believed unless we have

reason to think they are hypocrites. Say, someone says he has seen New

York as a wonderful city with very rich people, grand buildings and parks,

we believe in him only if we consider him trustworthy. If one follows path

taken by this person we can see if all that was said if true. So is the

path with meditation.

A similar rule applies to proving the presence of the soul. Pain, joy,

sorrow, hunger etc are not perceptible to the human eye. Yet, it is real.

Similarly, soul though not perceptible to the indriyas (organs of

perception), its presence is established. If the eternity of the souls is

not conceded, then the moral codes of conduct and religious injunctions

are meaningless. But in this world we also see a good man following the

moral code suffering from penury, illness, misery etc., To our dismay we

also see those enjoying wealth, good health are leading a bad life from

the time of birth. Why? These can only explained as the result of past

actions.

It may be argued that the discrepancy may be due to chance occurrence. But

the variation in health and wealth cannot be explained by hereditary

disposition.

Take a look at the dead body. It has all the limbs intact, eyes, ears

etc., as they were when he was alive. But it cannot move, see, hear or

talk. So, what does death indicate? You may say, breathing has stopped and

hence death. But why has it stopped despite the breathing apparatus being

intact? This clearly shows that that a sentient being was residing in the

body who was keeping active all parts of the body he inhabited. His

absence from the body must therefore be admitted as death.

One may counter this conclusion by another type of argument as follows:

There is no red color in betel leaves, arecanut and chunnam (calcium

hydroxide) when they were separate. When mixed together the color red is

manifest. Similarly, when the 5 material elements like earth, water, air

etc., are combined to form the materialistic body, then life or activity

occurs in the body. For such a person the dead body itself gives the

answer. It was the same body that was thinking, moving, seeing hearing

when alive. Yet, it has ceased to function even though having the same

constituents are parts. It means the sentient being, the soul, has

departed.

One may say that death is due to want of contact with air. But, if one

observes closely, there is movement of air in all gates of the body. The

dead, be it animal or human, will not wait for anyone to revive it, but

will decay and disappear, joining the elements of earth from which it is

made of. A consideration of the dead thus establishes the presence of soul

in the living.

Also, the combination of elements giving rise to the intelligent being is

disproved as it’s the same in both living and the dead.

Further, the red color from combining areca nut and calcium salt was there

in the elements before combining. It was not manifest. But what of that?

Thinking and intelligent faculty was not see in any element or

combination. It must be conceded that there must be a sentient being in

the body with intelligence. Does the soul derive intelligence by contact

with the physical elements. So, if anyone says that atma or soul is a

power derived by the combination of non-sentient 5 elements, this jada or

non-sentient cannot be the reposit of knowledge. It becomes settled that

there is a soul, who is intelligent and separate from the body and he is

called ‘Dehi’ i.e. one who is a possesses a body.

 

Observe the behavior of a newborn baby. When put on the breast it sucks

milk. It knows that hunger and thirst are quenched by it. How did it get

this intelligence. Only because it has the previous experience from past

births. The resident soul has that knowledge. This clearly shows that

there is a separate entity from the body who is a permanent being. (See

Appendix – To follow in my later postings).

In Srimad Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna stresses the eternity of the soul to

his disciple Arjuna. He exhorts Arjuna to fight for the right cause and in

doing so, he has to kill his own kith and kin, he should not grieve, for

the killing is not of the soul. The material body only disappears, the

departed soul entering fresh bodies befitting their karma or past actions.

Lord Krishna explains it as follows: The body of an infant is different

from that of a child which in turn differs from that of an adult and an

old person. Yet the person says he is the same. If there was not one being

in the body, he will never be able to tell so! For each body is different

and they cannot be the experience of one body only!

 

This sentient body is the soul.

If one were to say that it is the body that understands that one is fat,

thin, healthy or maimed; since there is breathing it is able to feel. What

happens during sleep? There is breath when asleep or if unconscious. There

is no knowledge of pain, hatred even though there is breathing. Therefore

it is not the body that understands, but its inhabitant, the soul.

 

So say it is the mind that understands. Mind is jada i.e. insentient.

During sound sleep, the mind is there, but its not able to get any

knowledge. But, even in sleep the soul is able to realize the time and

when one wakes up, he says, ‘I slept so long comfortably and I feel

refreshed’.

 

Wood is an important item in cooking (Indian homes). Axe is used to cut

or fell trees. But, wood and axe are not the active agents in both

actions, only agents in the hands of man. Similarly, the mind is only an

instrument through which the soul understands things.

 

It must be emphasized that the idea or notion of souls eternity is

imagined in all human beings. Everyone acts in the world fearing the

consequences of his actions. All religious people are prepared to suffer

inconveniences to do good with the idea of reaping fruits thereof. Their

actions, sayings, writings echo this one fundamental truth that the soul

is eternal and eternal only. This experience is called Sakshi experience.

Sakshi means the soul itself or in other words, the organs of the soul.

The pain, joy, happiness and misery are the experiences of the living, not

of the dead. When once cannot overcome the miseries and sufferings in his

life he attributes it to past sins. In such climax the true nature of the

soul comes out.

Therefore, the eternity of the soul is sakshi pratyaksha i.e. perception

of the soul itself.

If there is no soul, the obsequies and rites after death are meaningless.

All the flowers placed on the graves and salutations are for the soul.

There are several instances in the world both in the Orient and in the

Occident where a person remembers his past and is able to tell relatives

of his previous birth and so on.

 

The Bhagavad Gita, the song celestial, which is respected all over the

world, as an infallable authority in matters metaphysical, Lord Krishna

tells Arjuna, his disciple, that Arjuna had several previous births of

which he (Arjuna) does not remember. Can there be a greater authority?

 

In conclusion, all the religions of the world declare the presence of

souls excepting the Charvaka religion, which does not believe in anything

that the eye cannot see.

(a) Souls are many, infinite in number, eternal and pass from one body to

another till they are liberated

(b) Each soul is a sentient, intelligent being. It’s nature of pure

consciousness and bliss

© It is sub-atomic in size. It is finite

(d) It gets attached to the body and works towards salvation/hell

(e) It migrates from one body to the other until liberated. When it leaves

the body it inhabits, the body falls dead and decays

(f) The ‘I’ in the person is the soul

 

All actions, all sayings and all writings of humans point to the

inevitable conclusion that there is a soul separate from the body. The

liberation of the soul is its realization of its own innate happiness and

bliss.

The soul leaving the body is thus established beyond doubt.

 

There are 2 appendices to follow. I will post them very shortly. Please

pardon me if there are typos. Learned members on the list can shed more

light on issues above.

In the service of Lord Vittala

 

Keshav Bhat

 

 

=====

(617)442-8985(617)598-1031 X 1054http://kbhat.moonfruit.com/

 

 

http://www.dvaita.org/list/help.html

 

[krsna]

 

By JanJM, June 2000

 

 

"Indra, king of the devas, and Virochana, king of the demons, once

approached Brahma to learn knowledge of the atma or self. To test their

intelligence, Brahma taught them that the self is the image seen in a

mirror or a pan of water. The foolish Virochana happily returned to his

kingdom and was hailed as guru by the demons, who eagerly embraced this

worthless doctrine. Indra, unsatisfied, had second thoughts. He returned

to Brahma and received the true knowledge of the self as eternal atma."

(Chandogya Upanisad, chap. 8)

 

 

* Introduction

 

Those who came in touch with Vaisnava scriptures, especially the books of

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, know terms like jiva and atma very

well. Their definition is clear because the whole Vedic philosophy needs a

solid basis.

 

But when these Sanskrit terms are translated into Western (or other)

languages there is suddenly a problem. Usually used equivalents - "soul"

or "spirit" - are too vague to carry their precise meaning. I have become

aware of this problem during my editorial work with the translations of

Prabhupada's books. It has also been my experience that even many of those

who are interested in Eastern philosophies and religions do not understand

the difference between the jiva and her subtle (astral) or even gross

physical body. I am convinced this has a lot to do with language. Reader

of Prabhupada's books will sooner or later reach the proper understanding

but this time could be much shorter provided there is a clear definition

of terms in target languages.

 

This article shows that the root of this problem exists already in

Judeo-Christian philosophies, the basis of Western society. Although the

original religious paradigm slowly dissipates due to secularization, the

use of these terms continues even though their meaning is even less known

today than 200+ years ago.

 

 

* Importance of differentiation

 

Great acarya Madhva (12th century) in his Dvaita Vedanta philosophy, the

antipode of Advaita Vedanta of Shankara, defines five essential

differences among three irreducible entities: jiva (individual living

being), ishvara (supreme living being, Vishnu, God) and jada (insentient

substance, matter):

 

- jiva-ishvara-bheda, or difference between the jiva and Vishnu;

- jada-ishvara-bheda, or difference between the insentient and Vishnu;

- mitha-jiva-bheda, or difference between any two jivas;

- jada-jiva-bheda, or difference between insentient and jiva; and

- mitha-jada-bheda, or difference between any two insentients.

 

Here, "insentient" is used to refer to _all_ matter, including so-called

"living bodies", and is also used to refer to such other insentients as

space, energy, linguistic or mathematical entities and their symbols, etc.

 

The understanding of these five differences is seemingly trivial, but upon

careful consideration, one sees that to properly understand them, one

needs to know the significant properties of every kind of entity in the

whole universe! Thus, such understanding is not easily gained, and it is

said that all misery and unhappiness is due to one's lack of understanding

of one or more of these differences.

 

The grief one experiences due to loss of beauty, strength, vitality, the

passing of a loved one, etc., is due to the false identification of the

insentient and ever-changing body with the sentient, immutable jiva. One

who correctly perceives all five differences is said to have attained

knowledge and to be fit for liberation.

 

 

* West: unclear philosophy influencing language

 

Soul (American Heritage Dictionary):

1. The animating and vital principle in human beings, credited with the

faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an

immaterial entity.

2. The spiritual nature of human beings, regarded as immortal, separable

from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future

state.

3. The disembodied spirit of a dead human being; a shade.

 

Although these definitions may serve general purposes, they do not help to

differentiate between material (subtle body) and immaterial (jiva). The

problem of lacking precise definitions can be traced back to the

Judeo-Christian tradition.

 

Klaus Klostermaier devotes a whole article to this topic (see Literature)

but already in the beginning he mentions a capitulation of Christian

philosophy while facing the problem of soul's identity:

 

"There is not a single statement regarding the nature and destiny of the

soul that would be accepted by all Christian denominations. The doctrinal

development in the various Christian denominations, and the disinterest

shown by many contemporary Christians in any formulations of 'metaphysical

doctrines' has reached a point where it is pretty meaningless to speak of

a 'Christian position' on questions like the soul and its destiny."

 

Then he gives an overview of main terms:

 

"Soul (Latin: anima) is the translation of the Biblical nephesh and

psyche, and etymologically both contain the idea of breath, blowing,

drawing breath. Sometimes psyche is used simply as a synonym for life, or

the principle of life, (Matt. 2:20; 10:28; 10:39; John 10:11) or for

'living being' - either animal or man; (1 Cor. 15:45; Rom. 13:1) in other

places it means the principle which is opposed to the body, (1 Pet. 2:11)

which is immortal and which is man's most valuable 'part': 'What does it

profit you if you gain the whole world and lose your soul? What can you

give in exchange for your soul?' (Matt. 16:26) And: 'There is no need to

fear those who kill the body but have no means of killing the soul; fear

him more, who has the power to ruin body and soul in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

 

[Connection to breath as well as mention of ruining soul in hell (only

matter can be destroyed, or rather transformed) suggest that this refers

to prana.]

 

"Spirit (Hebrew: ruah; Greek: pneuma; Latin: spiritus) is used often in

the Bible in different senses. Sometimes it is a synonym for life, soul or

living being, people. (Heb. 12:23) Occasionally it stands for the seat of

feelings, thoughts, intentions. Sometimes pneumata (spirits) describes the

deceased ones. (Rom. 8:4-13) With Paul we find very often spirit as the

opposite to 'flesh' (sarx). Spirit stands for union with God, and thus

also the body of the redeemed ones (as referred to here, the body of the

risen Christ) is 'spirit', whereas the whole existence of the sinner, who

is 'far from God', is 'flesh'. (1 Cor. 6:16) Spirit is the divine power

which justifies and sanctifies; flesh is the weakness in which sin is

dwelling and thriving. This 'spirit' is the 'spirit of Christ' - the

faithful become 'One spirit with Christ'.

 

[Ruah, or "breath of life"; pneuma; prana, or "life-force"; ki (Japanese);

cchi (Chinese) or mana (Polynesian) are all synonyms for the vital energy

that keeps the body alive and maintains good health. Deceased persons have

an airy, or pranic, body.]

 

"Spirit (Lat. spiritus, spirare, "to breathe"; Gk. pneuma; Fr. esprit;

Ger. Geist). As these names show, the principle of life was often

represented under the figure of a breath of air. The breath is the most

obvious symptom of life, its cessation the invariable mark of death;

invisible and impalpable, it stands for the unseen mysterious force behind

the vital processes. Accordingly we find the word "spirit" used in several

different but allied senses: (1) as signifying a living, intelligent,

incorporeal being, such as the soul; (2) as the fiery essence or breath

(the Stoic pneuma) which was supposed to be the universal vital force; (3)

as signifying some refined form of bodily substance, a fluid believed to

act as a medium between mind and the grosser matter of the body."

(Catholic Encyclopedia)

 

[Definition (1) describes jiva but (2) and (3) describe prana. Without the

help of Vedic scriptures it is difficult to differentiate between them.]

 

"There are some more expressions in the Bible which could be used in order

to show how 'soul' is to be understood: we find sometimes human essence

expressed as 'the heart' (Hebrew: leb; Greek: kardia). Also 'flesh' is

used as expressing human existence, not just in the negative sense. The

terminology of the Bible is far from uniform, and we do not find clear

definitions of the term. Life, soul and spirit stand for a reality which

is transcategorical. The Bible wants to make clear that the whole

existence of humans is from God, and depends on God, who is the 'living

God'." (Klostermaier)

 

[Heart is the seat of jiva and prana. During deep sleep (susupti) the

pranas withdraw into the heart cavity and rest with the jiva in the

Paramatma (dahara), aspect of God as the supreme witness. (Vedanta-sutra

3.2.7-8) It is mentioned also in Koran 6.60: "And He it is Who takes your

souls at night (in sleep), and He knows what you acquire in the day

(...)."]

 

Therefore even theologians like Thomas Aquinas mix jiva with mind and

intelligence (i.e. subtle body) and prana:

 

"We must conclude, therefore, that the human soul, which is called the

intellect or the mind, is something incorporeal and subsistent." (Summa

Theologica 1, 75, 2)

 

"We may therefore say that the soul understands, as the eye sees; but it

is more correct to say that man understands through the soul." (STh 1, 75,

2).

 

"Now it is clear that the first thing by which the body lives is the soul.

And as life appears through various operations in different degrees of

living things, that whereby we primarily perform each of all these vital

actions is the soul. For the soul is the primary principle of our

nourishment, sensation, and local movement; and likewise of our

understanding. Therefore this principle by which we primarily understand,

whether it be called the intellect or the intellectual soul, is the form

of the body. This is the demonstration used by Aristotle (De Anima ii,

2)." (STh 1, 76, 1).

 

Aquinas also considers different koshas (layers of gross and subtle body)

as different souls:

 

"Whence we must conclude, that there is no other substantial form in man

besides the intellectual soul; and that the soul, as it virtually contains

the sensitive and nutritive souls, so does it virtually contain all

inferior forms, and itself alone does whatever the imperfect forms do in

other things. The same is to be said of the sensitive soul in brute

animals, and of the nutritive soul in plants, and universally of all more

perfect forms with regard to the imperfect." (STh 1, 76, 4)

 

Aquinas follows Aristotle (although he often disagrees with him) who is

considering mind to be immaterial:

 

"Mind is not composed of matter and form, for its ideas are not physical

but spiritual as their universality declares, they are abstract and not

tied down to matter or to the material conditions of time and place. The

mind is, therefore, a subsisting form, and is consequently immortal." (De

Anima 14)

 

Christian philosopher Justin Martyr (2nd century) in his dialogue with

Trypho the Jew, ch. 5, discusses the soul's nature. He promotes Platonist

approximate idea of jiva but is convinced by Trypho that soul is of

similar nature as world, i.e. material. Again, this refers to prana.

 

A side comment: in this as well as the previous chapter, Justin mentions

reincarnation of men into animals. Trypho disagrees but his

counterargument - that those punished in this way do not remember their

guilt and therefore such punishment has no meaning - is purely subjective.

The story of Maharaja Bharata from the Bhagavata Purana refutes it.

 

The result is that whatever transcends gross, tangible reality is labelled

as "transcendent(al)", "metaphysical", "spiritual" etc. This means a

problem for a Vaisnava translator:

 

"Complete knowledge includes knowledge of the phenomenal world, *the

spirit behind it*, and the source of both of them. (Bhagavad-gita 7.2,

purport)

 

"The difficulty in Dutch is the word 'spirit' which can be translated as

'ghost', 'mind', 'soul', 'character', 'mood', 'vitality' etc. Neither,

however, really seems to fit. Even the word 'soul' does not seem right

here for 'soul' indicates a person (at least in Dutch), so to later say

'..., and the source of both' may become impersonal."

 

The difficulty does not exist only in Dutch but in majority of languages.

They simply lack terms to describe higher reality outside of this material

world which is so elaborately dealt with in the Sanskrit language of the

Vedic scriptures. Here is most probably meant immaterial, internal energy

(antaranga-sakti).

 

But even Bible translators have problems of this kind. Renowned Christian

linguist Eugene A. Nida says:

 

"In some languages, "Holy Spirit" means little more than a "white ghost,"

for "holy" has been equated with cleanness or whiteness, and "Spirit" is

more readily understood in such a context as "ghost" rather than as the

"Spirit of God." An even worse situation was encountered in a language in

which "holy" was rendered as "that which makes taboo" and "spirit" meant

primarily an evil or malicious spirit. It was quite understandable that

the people in this area were very reluctant to receive "a tabooing demon,"

especially when the possession of such a demon ruled out any sexual

relations with one's spouse." (...) For example, in Mark 1:12, it is

possible that people will understand "the Spirit drove him into the

wilderness" as being the activity of a demon rather than of the Holy

Spirit. In the Greek New Testament the term pneuma, "spirit," without

qualifier usually designates the Holy Spirit. In many languages, however,

the general term for "spirit" by itself may designate evil spirits. In

such languages, it is best in all passages in which the Greek uses simple

pneuma for the Holy Spirit to use whatever specific expression has been

adopted to refer to the Holy Spirit. In most cases this involves the use

of some qualifier, which provides the required contextual conditioning."

 

Let us turn to Vedic sources now.

 

 

* Vedic definitions

 

Bhagavad-gita (BG) 7.4: "Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind [manas],

intelligence [buddhi] and false ego [ahankara] - all together these eight

constitute My separated material energies [bhinna-prakrti]."

 

The first five elements - solid, liquid, radiating and gaseous substances

plus ether - are gross material and constitute the physical body. Three

other - mind, intelligence, false ego - are subtle material and constitute

the subtle (or astral) body. Witnesses of NDE/OBE describe this body as a

foggy cloud having a form of body. (Beings with only this body are called

ghosts). Subtle body is in a sense immortal because it stays with jiva

during her whole material existence.

 

Prana is a subtle material energy arising from rajo guna. It works as an

interface between gross and subtle body, enabling all the psychophysical

functions (i.e. animation - from Latin "anima"). Vedanta-sutra defines it

as a special type of air. Prana leaves the gross body together with the

jiva and subtle body at death and is reincarnated (Vedanta-sutra 2.4.13,

Bhagavata Purana 4.28.24). As such prana is also witnessed by the jiva

which is floating in prana in the heart cavity (Katha Upanisad 1.3.1).

Prana's movement leads to jiva's identification with the gross body (SB

4.29.71). Prana is one but acts in different ways. Lower pranas control

the senses and are under the control of main prana controlled by the

Paramatma according to desire and karma of the jiva. Vedanta-sutra 2.4,

Bhagavata Purana 4.25-28 (serpent analogy), Prasna Upanisad and other

scriptures contain elaborate descriptions of prana. Various Eastern

healing methods and martial arts work with prana.

 

BG 7.5: "Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior

[para] energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities [jiva-bhuta]

who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature."

 

Second chapter of Bhagavad-gita and other scriptures (like Padma Purana)

give detailed description of jiva. Ravindra Svarupa Dasa says:

 

"The jiva or atma is described as a separated, minute fragment of God, the

Paramatma. God is like a fire; the individual jivas, sparks of the fire.

As the analogy suggests, the self and the Superself are simultaneously one

with and different from each other. They are the same in quality, for both

they are brahman, immaterial substance. Yet they differ in quantity, since

the Superself (param brahman - supreme brahman - in Bhagavad-gita 10.12)

is infinitely great while the individual selves are infinitesimally

small."

 

Gross body undergoes six types of changes which are listed in the Niruktam

(1.1.2): jayate 'sti varddhate, viparinamate, apaksiyate nasyati ca - "The

body takes birth, exists, grows, reproduces, ages, and finally dies." The

jiva, however, does not undergo any of these changes. Krishna explains

this in the second chapter of Bhagavad-gita. In the thirteenth chapter the

body is described as the field of activities (ksetra), and the jiva as

ksetra-jna, the knower of that field.

 

The argument for the jiva not undergoing these changes is that she

observes all these changes and activities of the mind and intelligence as

well. Scriptures like Bhagavata Purana (SB) 4.28.40 confirm this: "King

Malayadhvaja attained perfect knowledge by being able to distinguish the

Paramatma from the individual jiva. The individual jiva is localized,

whereas the Paramatma is all-pervasive. He became perfect in knowledge

that the material body is not the jiva but that the jiva is the witness

[saksin] of the material body."

 

SB 7.7.23: "There are two kinds of bodies for every individual soul - a

gross body made of five gross elements and a subtle body made of three

subtle elements. Within these bodies, however, is the spirit soul

[purusa]. One must find the soul by analysis, saying, 'This is not it.

This is not it.' Thus one must separate spirit from matter."

 

The observer of a change is not affected by the change or he ceases to be

an observer. A passenger sitting in an airplane and unable to look out the

window cannot fathom its speed, but a man on the ground is able to observe

and measure it easily. Similarly, everyone has the experience of the six

types of changes occurring in one's own body, but the observer of these

changes is not the body - she is the jiva. Hence the very experience "I am

sick" proves that I (the jiva) am not sick, because if I was sick I would

be unable to perceive that sickness.

 

The "body-mind-jiva" system can be compared to a computer. The gross

material body can be compared to a hardware, the subtle body and the prana

to a software, and the jiva to their user. While living in the material

world, she has to communicate through them like a paralyzed person using a

computer substituting voice etc. If she becomes cured by a proper practice

she will not need this "bodily computer" - she can live in a immaterial

world in her own immaterial form (svarupa). This is the natural, original

position of each of us.

 

 

* Conclusion: jiva versus prana

 

Terms "soul" and "spirit" in Judeo-Christian tradition often describe

prana which is different from the jiva. Everyone speaks about "my soul"

which means that soul is outside of us. Nature of the jiva is

sac-cid-ananda vigraha (eternal, cognizant, blissful form). While in the

material world (whose nature is exactly the opposite) she is inactive and

subtle material body and prana serve her as a tool for manipulating gross

matter. Using the word "soul" for the jiva should be therefore considered

a makeshift choice due to lack of proper term in Western and other

languages. This should be remembered while translating Vedic texts and

reading their translations as well.

[krsna]

 

- floats in prana in the heart cavity (Katha Up. 1.3.1); prana is one but acts in different ways, movement of prana leads to identification with the body (SB 4.29.71), lower pranas control the senses and are under the control of main prana controlled by the Supersoul (Paramatma) according to desire and karma of the soul.

 

Consciousness is spread all over the body through blood (also moving due to prana).

 

Soul controls the pranas in a sense that he enjoys their movements.

 

Demigods control the pranas in a sense that they define the activities of the senses (Surya is lord of sight because the sun defines what is visible to the eyes.) Real master of the eye is Paramatma.

 

- compared to a seed planted into the womb of internal energy, with the help of sravanam kirtanam it grows and develops spiritual body and mind

 

- 5 kosas (coverings, parts of subtle body) (BG 13.5p., SB 6.15.12-15p.):

 

annamaya - mind oriented on food

pranamaya - on bodily effort

manomaya - on mental activities

vijnanamaya - on intellectual discrimination

anandamaya - impersonal spiritual happiness (vimukta-manina)

 

 

Causal body (karana-deha) is a subtle body (linga-sarira) purified by mystic yoga (one can reach the edge of Causal ocean/Karana-jala in it).

 

Preliminary anandamaya is perceived by Brahma and after being transcended, real anandamaya (KC) develops in svarupa, or siddha-deha (spiritual body and mind.) Gross body (sthula-sarira) is nourished by annnamaya consciousness (anna - grains) which predominates in Bhur-loka. Living entities in pranamaya, manomaya and vijnanamaya are civilized humans on Bhur-loka, Bhuvar-loka (mainly water and liquid elements; e.g. moon - cooling and nectar producing effects), Svarga-, Mahar-loka (mainly fiery elements).

 

On Jana-, Tapo-loka (airy elements) and Satya-loka (ethereal elements) live great mystics with asta-siddhi who transcended linga-sarira and have karana-deha. In this body does not exist gross and subtle enjoyment but still there is false ego - they are attached to their positions in the universe. Between material and spiritual mind is no connection (not that lustful mind means madhurya rasa svarupa). While material consciousness predominates, spiritual mind sleeps, everything is like a dream (SB 4.29.2b).

 

- bhakti inherent to jiva though awakened by guru:

 

CC Madhya 19.151:

 

brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija

 

brahmanda bhramite - wandering in this universe; kona - some; bhagyavan - most fortunate; jiva - living being; guru - of the spiritual master; krsna - of Krsna; prasade - by the mercy; paya - gets; bhakti-lata - of the creeper of devotional service; bija - the seed.

 

According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Krsna. By the mercy of both Krsna and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service.

 

CC Madhya 20.117:

 

krsna bhuli' sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

 

krsna bhuli' - forgetting Krsna; sei jiva - that living entity; anadi - from time immemorial; bahir-mukha - attracted by the external feature; ataeva - therefore; maya - illusory energy; tare - to him; deya - gives; samsara-duhkha - miseries of material existence.

 

Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.

 

CC Madhya 22.107:

 

nitya-siddha krsna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya

sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

 

nitya-siddha - eternally established; krsna-prema - love of Krsna; sadhya - to be gained; kabhu - at any time; naya - not; sravana-adi - by hearing, etc.; suddha - purified; citte - in the heart; karaye udaya - awakens.

 

Pure love for Krsna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens.

 

(CC Antya 3.78-86:) Caitanya M. liberated all living entities and enabled the manifestation of the unmanifested (suksma) living entities (present inhabitants of this universe) who were merged in material elements, inactive, fully unconscious and out of samsara. Interplanetary space is constituted mainly of ether (akasa) and is full of suksma-jivas.

 

- falldown (BG 7.27p. - "deluded into separation and becomes controlled by illusory energy", SB 7.13.5 - both states (baddha/moksa) illusory)

 

On his way to material world the soul is asked 3 times by Krsna (in the form of 3 Visnus) not to leave spiritual world and he can take shelter of any of Them. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati says in Brahma-samhita that when the souls emanate from Mahavisnu they can surrender to Him and live in Vaikuntha. According to SB 3 when they collectively appear in Hiranyagarbha (Garbhodakasayi Visnu) they can surrender to Him and live in Brahma-loka. According to SB 4 when the soul first time appears in human form by the mercy of Paramatma (Ksirodakasayi Visnu) he gets the chance to receive knowledge from guru, to perform devotional service and to return back to Godhead. If he does not take advantage of it he falls into sense gratification and samsara.

 

The reason _why_ we, the souls, left Lord's blissful association is our small independence. We can choose to stay with the Lord or not. This is our eternal nature of marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). We thought that the kingdom of Maya is worthy to check out. When we leave the spiritual world we are captured by Maya and when we realize our fault we try to get back. Lord would like us to stay with Him but He doesn't bar us from leaving Him. Out of His mercy, however, He is all the time with us as the Supersoul and helps us in many ways. And when we come back to our original position He is more happy than us. The odyssey of the fallen soul is illustrated in the Brhad-bhagavatamrta 2 by Sanatana Gosvami and the Biblical parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11 onward).

 

- four imperfections: (SB 10.13.15p.) karanapatava (imperfect senses), pramada (tendency to be illusioned), bhrama (committing mistakes), vipralipsa (tendency to cheat).

 

- size of (a human) thumb: (Mahabharata, Satyavati akhyana) Yama forcibly dragged the thumb-like soul from the body of Satyavan (aNguSThamaatram puruSam niScakaRSa balaa yamaH - Ta. 10.38.1 (?))

 

- spiritual qualities (8) sought by: (Vedanta-sutra 1.3.18)

 

"The term dahara does not refer to the jiva, because the dahara is the source of eight spiritual qualities sought after by the jiva (apahata-papa - freedom from sins, vijara - freedom from old age, vimrtyu - freedom from death, visoka - freedom from material distress and happiness, vijighatsa - freedom from hunger, apipata - freedom from material desire, satya-kama - spiritual desire, satya-sankalpa - self-fulfillment)."

 

- unlimited number: SB 7.7.38 - asesa dehinam, Paramatma-sandarbha 47.1