Varna requires Four Regulative Principles?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Bhagavad-gétä 2.32

--

London, September 2, 1973

 

Formerly, the judgement was given by the king. Every day, king would sit. Just like we are sitting. So if there is... Formerly, there was no criminal, practically. If there was any criminal, if... It was very difficult to find out a criminal. Because these four things were forbidden. What is that? No illicit sex, no intoxication, no gambling, no meat-eating. So if one follows these four principles, naturally he is sinless automatically. And if the whole population is sinless, then where is the possibility of judging or bringing the criminal?

 

[Kulapavana]

in the past ages people did not sin all that much not because it was FORBIDDEN to sin, but because the souls taking birth in these times were more pure.

 

yet, proper laws certainly DO HELP in that regard. some intoxication, gambling, etc. was there in the past, but it was a small scale problem, limited to the lower varnas.

 

one of the most destructive elements of this age of Kali is the fallen condition of the brahmanas as a group - as they are the trendsetters in society. when brahmanas become degraded NO ONE WANTS TO FOLLOW THE PROPER RELIGIOUS PATH. (sounds familiar?)

[Guest guest]

when brahmanas become degraded NO ONE WANTS TO FOLLOW THE PROPER RELIGIOUS PATH. (sounds familiar?)

 

Nope. Care to explain?

[Kulapavana]

so, you have not seen ANY bogus religious leaders around you at all? religious leaders, whose abuse of power and authority turns people away not only from their own particular tradition, but also religion in general?

 

hmmm... how old are you? or where have you been hiding all these years?

[Guest guest]

There is one other principle to be gaurded against that is not mentioned in the present day Iskcon movement and that is the accumulation of gold or (wealth) for one can indulge in all the others through this act. And vaisnavas can regulate the others thru auserity.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

As a Ksatriya it is YOUR duty to see that the principles are being maintained.

[Kulapavana]

yes, wealth can be a problem, so can material power. but if the sannyasis always acted in accordance with the rules of their ashrama, there would be no need for the 5th or 6th rule /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

cari varnasrami yadi krsna nahi bhaje

svakarma karite se raurave padi' maje

 

The followers of the varnasrama institutions accept the regulative principles of the four social orders (brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and sudra) and four spiritual orders (brahmacari, gnhastha, vanaprastha, and sannyasa). If, one carries out the regulative principles of these orders but does not render service to Krsna, he falls into a hellish condition of life. (Cc. Madhya 22.26)

 

brahmanah ksatriya vaisah sudrah papa-parayanah

nijacara-vihinas ca bhavisyanti kalau yuge

vipra veda-vihinas ca pratigraha-parayanah

atyanta-kaminah krura bhavisyanti kalau yuge

veda-nindakaras caiva dyutacaurya karas tatha

vidhava-sanga-lubdhas ca bhavisanti kalau dvijah

vrtty-artham brahmanah kecit mahakapata-dharminah

raktambara bhavisyanti jatilah smasrudharinah

kalau yuge bhavisanti brahmanah sudra-dharmina

 

In Kali-yuga, all four varnas are devoid of character and proper behavior and are addicted to sin. The brahmanas are devoid of Vedic knowledge and sacrifice. Giving up the five sacrifices recommended in the Vedas and all brahminical behavior and consciousness, they engage in inferior activities. They collect charity to satisfy their unlimited appetite for sense enjoyment. The brahmanas of Kali-yuga are characterized by the qualities of lust and cruelty.

 

Unholy in deed and thought, they take pleasure in envy and malice. These professional thieves blaspheme the Vedas, drink liquor, and exploit women for sex, taking great pleasure in adultery and fornication. They accept extremely sinful means of maintaining their lives and, posing as swamis, dress in red cloth and wear long hair and beards. In this way the wretched so called brahmanas of Kali-yuga accept the dharma of sudras, that is, they become fourth-class men.

(Padma Purana)

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"As a Ksatriya it is YOUR duty to see that the principles are being maintained."

 

he he... nice try Pankaji... /images/graemlins/smile.gif a kshatriya without real power is nothing but a beggar in this world...

[Guest guest]

brahmana-kumaranam saukre janmani durjatitvabhavo'pi savana-yogy-atvaya punya-visesamaya savitra-janma-sapeksatvat. Tatasca adiksitasya svadasya. svadasya savana yogyatva-pratikul durjatyaramakam prarabdhamapi gatam eva, kintu sisthacarabhavat adiksitasya svadasya diksam vina savitryam janma nastiti brahamana-kumaranam savana yogyatva bhavavacchedaka punya visesamaya savitra janmapeksavadasya adiksitasya svadasya savitrya-janmantaropekso vartata iti bhavah

 

[This is a quotation from Jiva Gosvami's commentary on a verse of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Purva Vibhaga 1.13, which Rupa Gosvami quotes from Srimad Bhagavatam (3.33.6).]

 

The Bhagavatam verse and its purport by Srila Prabhupada is given as follows: "To say nothing of the spiritual advancement of persons who see the Supreme Person face to face, even a person born in a family of dog-eaters im-mediately becomes eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices if he once utters the name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or chants about Him, hears about His pastimes, offers Him obeisances or even remembers Him.

 

Purport: Herein the spritual potency of chanting, hearing or remembering the holy name of the Supreme Lord is greatly stressed. Rupa Gosvami has discussed the sequence of sinful activities of the conditioned soul, and he has established, in Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, that those who engage in devotional service become freed from the reactions of all sinful activities. This is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gita. The Lord says that He takes charge of one who surrenders to Him and makes him immune to all reactions to sinful activities.

If by chanting the holy name of the Supreme Personality of

Godhead one becomes so swiftly cleared of all reactions to sinful activities, then what is to be said of those persons who see Him face to face?

 

Another consideration here is that persons who are purified by the process of chanting and hearing become immediately eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices. Generally, only a person who is born in a family of brahmanas, who has been reformed by the ten kinds of purificatory processes and who is learned in Vedic literature is allowed to perform

the Vedic sacrifices, but here the word sadyau, "immediately," is used.

 

Sridhara Svami also remarks that one can immediately be eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices. A person born in a family of the low caste which is accustomed to eating dogs is so positioned due to his past sinful activites, but by chanting or hearing once in pureness, or in a offenseless

manner, he is immediately relieved of the sinful reaction. Not only is he relieved of the sinful reaction, but he immediately achieves the result of all purificatory processes. Taking birth in the family of a brahmana is

certainly due to pious activities in one's past life, but still a child who is born in a brahmana family depends on his further reformation upon initiation, acceptance of a sacred thread, and many other reformatory processes.

But a person who chants the holy name of the Lord, even if born in family of candalas, dog-eaters, does not need reformation. Simply by chanting Hare Krsna, he immediately becomes purified and becomes as good as the most learned brahmana. Sridhara Svami especially remarks in this connection, anena pujyatavam laksyate. Some caste brahmanas

remark that by chanting Hare Krsna, purification begins. Of course, that depends on the individual process of chanting, but this remark of Sridhara Svami's is completely applicable if one chants the holy name of the Lord without offense for he immediately becomes more than a brahmana. As Sridhara Svami says, pujyatvam: he immediately becomes as respectable as a most learned brahmana and can be allowed to perform Vedic sacrifices.

 

If simply by changing the holy name of the Lord one becomes

sanctified instantly, then what can be said of those persons who see the Supreme Lord face to face and who can understand the descent of the Lord as Devahuti understands Kapiladeva. Usually, initiation depends on the bona fide spiritual master, who directs the disciple. If he sees that

a disciple has become competent and purified by the process of chanting, he offers the sacred thread to the disciple just so that he will be recognized as one-hundred-percent equal with a brahmana. This is also confimed in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa by Sri Sanatana Gosvami:

 

"As base metal can be changed into gold by a chemical process, any person can similarly be changed into a brahmana by diksm-vidhana, the initiation process." It is sometimes remarked that by the chanting process one begins to purify himself and can take birth in his next life in

a brahmana family and then be reformed.

 

But at this present moment, even those who are born in the best brahmana families are not reformed, nor is there any certainty that they are actually born of brahmana fathers. Formerly the garbhadhana reformatory system was prevalent, but at the present moment there is no

such garbhadhana, or seed-giving ceremony. Under these circumstances, no one knows if a man if factually born of a brahmana father. Whether one has acquired the qualification of a brahmana depends on the judgement of the bona fide spiritual master. He bestows upon the disciple the position of a brahmana by his own judgement. When one is accepted as

a brahmana in the sacred thread ceremony, under the pancaratrika system, then he is dvija, twice-born. That is confimed by Sanatana Gosvami:

dvijatvam jayate. By the process of initiation, a person is accepted as a brahmana in his purified state of chanting the holy name of the Lord.

He then makes further progress to become a qualified Vaisnava, which means that the brahminical qualification is already acquired.

 

The import of the above commentary by Jiva Gosvami on this verse summarized as follows by Bhakti Hrdaya vana Maharaja in his translation of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (which Srila Prabhupada at one time authorized us to read in a letter to Yamuna Dasi in 1968):

 

"According to Sri Jiva Gosvami, though this rudimentary bhakti in a born candala will remove the effects of his past misdeeds, yet he must wait for the next birth in a higher social status to qualify himself for the performance of the Vedic sacrifices. [srila Jiva Gosvaai says that just as one who is born a brahmana must wait to be purified though the sacred thread ceremony in order to perform sacrifice, in the same way, one who has chanted the holy name is eligible to perform Vedic sacrifice, but must wait to take birth as a brahmana in order to actually perform Vedic sacrifice.]

 

Jiva Gosvami, it is obvious, is reluctant to disturb the social order and tries to conform, as far as possible to the extant practices and ideas of the Hindu society of his time. Visvanatha Cakravarti, however, considers Jiva Gosvami's view to give away the whole case for the quality of prarabdha-pmpaharatva [power of deliverance from sin] that is claimed for bhakti. Visvanatha's view is that

bhakti, however slight, will at once remove all taints from the fallen human being and qualify him for the highest social duties of the Hindus. This is rather a controversial problem. The question is between 'eligibility' and 'capability'.

Jiva Gosvami here argues that a brahmana born in a higher social order because of good deeds in previous births is eligible to perform Vedic rituals; while even a candala born in the lowest social order owing to his misdeeds in previous births, becomes fully capable of performing such Vedic rituals when his prarabdha is wiped out by singing and listening to the name of the Lord in the stage of

practice of bhakti."

 

But, as even a person born in a brahmana family has to wait till his sacred thread ceremony before he can actuallly perform such Vedic rituals in spite of his eligibility, so a devotee born in a candala family, is cleansed of his sins committed in previous births by practising the rudiments of bhakti and becomes eligble to perform Vedic rites, but he does not do this as he is not interested in the fruits of Vedic karma."

 

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Oh come on Prabhu. How many excuses do you have. I want to see you do something.

-

 

Your servant /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I am not joking /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kulapavana]

"Jiva Gosvami, it is obvious, is reluctant to disturb the social order and tries to conform, as far as possible to the extant practices and ideas of the Hindu society of his time. Visvanatha Cakravarti, however, considers Jiva Gosvami's view to give away the whole case for the quality of prarabdha-pmpaharatva [power of deliverance from sin] that is claimed for bhakti. Visvanatha's view is that

bhakti, however slight, will at once remove all taints from the fallen human being and qualify him for the highest social duties of the Hindus."

 

 

I tend to see things being somewhere in between these two most respectable positions.

 

far too often neophyte devotees think they are "oh, so qualified" to do things they barely even comprehend, and make a terrible mess in the process... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Guest guest]

far too often neophyte devotees think they are "oh, so qualified" to do things they barely even comprehend, and make a terrible mess in the process...

 

Touche!

[Guest guest]

so, you have not seen ANY bogus religious leaders around you at all?***

 

Not really.

 

religious leaders, whose abuse of power and authority turns people away not only from their own particular tradition, but also religion in general?***

 

Can you give examples?

 

 

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"so, you have not seen ANY bogus religious leaders around you at all?***Not really."

 

so the Vedas must be wrong in their criticism of Kali-yuga?

 

...whatever....

 

ok, you want examples? to just name a few: Jones (of Jonestown fame), Sung Yung Moon, Jimmy Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, the idiot who invented suicide as a way to get on a "mother ship", etc. - and closer to home: Kirtanananda and Bhavananda.