krsna Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 Reporter: Does it ever happen, Swamiji, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you in spiritual matters? Prabhupada: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open-hearted, then he will agree. Srila Prabhupada - Conversation with News Reporters -- March 25, 1976, Delhi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 This could be a very valuable discussion but I doubt it will go anywhere. It brings up a related question to me. It has been very clear to me for several decades now that I am not a disciple from any definition of the word. So I have personal interest in what is the difference between a disciple and a student, and between a student and a general congregation type follower? To me this seems like it could be helpful to a great number of people who are unsure where they fit in in relation to Srila Prabhupada? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2005 Report Share Posted June 6, 2005 I can't answer your specific question, Theist; but I'd humbly suggest that you don't be so hard on yourself. Srila Prabhupada is an ocean of mercy - an unfathomable and unlimited ocean of mercy, as you well know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 I appreciate your concern but I don't think I am being hard on myself at all. I am just trying to see the facts as they are. Imagining oneself a disciple when they really are not is actually doing violence to oneself. It keeps us locked in an illusion of connection which prevents us from establishing a genuine connection. However long that may take it is not real until it is real. If you are leading the life of a disciple internally as well as externally then there is no harm in considering yourself as a disciple. If we are not we should see that also. Everyone involved is receiving more benefit then we can imagine just by reading Srila Prabhupada's books and remembering them and trying to understand them can only bring yet more. So I don't spend too much time lamenting my fate in the long run. I should rather try to become grateful. The short term is a different story /images/graemlins/wink.gif but I will grow from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 "Because a bona fide spiritual master is a representative of Krsna, if he bestows any blessings upon his disciple, that will make the disciple immediately advanced without the disciple's following the regulative principles. Or, the regulative principles will be easier for one who has served the spiritual master without reservation." [b.G. 13.8-12, purport] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 That is in the BG?!?! Amazing how one can read and read and yet never see. Thank you I take some hope from that. There remains an outside chance. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 "Reporter: Does it ever happen, Swamiji, that some disciples of yours may disagree with you in spiritual matters? Prabhupada: Unless he is a fool. (laughter) Unless he's damn fool, they do not. (laughter) If he's sane and sober, open-hearted, then he will agree." We should make a distinction here between spiritual matters (as in this question) and matters of practical application and approach used in preaching. One could argue that such things are not immutable and absolute, but subject to time, place and circumstances considerations. an intelligent disciple will understand the essence and intent of his guru's practical instructions and will adjust the approach to make it effective under existing circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Yes. Prabhupada can do anything. yasya deva para bhaktir. yr friend g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 The regulative principles are not the be-all and end-all of spiritual life but it is dangerous to file this sort of quotation in the subconsciousness, as it may ultimately justify not practicing any vows. Guru seva takes precedence over all instruction but observing the directives given by our master is also guru seva. There's always a loophole to do whatever we want, to engage in anything without sacrifice all in the name of devotional life. We'll only ever attract that effulgent smile of our guru when we are out there on the battlefield doing the instruction we know pleases him, that may be different for different individuals. But some things are general. Most of the troubles and problems in spiritual life stem from the implications and reactions of breaking regulative principles. But they are not always hanging offenses. Chant and be hopeful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2005 Report Share Posted June 7, 2005 Srila Prabhupada included this in the Bhagavad Gita As It Is for a reason. No one is looking for loopholes here. We are looking for mercy though, and we've found it in Prabhupada. Including this quote was done so to show how merciful the pure devotee can be. Prabhupada said similar things in class at various times, but qualified it be saying, "but don't take advantage." All the devotees laughed. You may not appreciate this quote or point; that's okay, it was addressed to Theist anyway. "Your mercy is all that I'm made of." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2005 Report Share Posted June 8, 2005 While the disciple accepts without dialogue the instructions of Guru, nevertheless, the disciple is also ORDERED to "scrutinizingly understand this phiolsophy". Scrutiny means that the spiritual master is always put to the test by the disciple. Srila Prabhupada says exactly the same thing, warning us against accepting a guru "suddenly, influenced by fanaticism". So, while we somewhat accept the authority of Guru, we also have duty to scrutinize, which mundaners worried about everyone else may think is disobediance. Also, Srila Prabhupada discussed things often with his disciples concerning management, where he demanded that they give answers appropriately, not sycopants (yes men). So, overall, disagreement with guru is not insanity, it depends on the situation. hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 "Sisya means [one] who accepts the ruling of his spiritual master, and disciple means also the same thing--[one] who becomes disciplined by the spiritual master." (Lecture, September 12, 1969, London) Srila Prabhupada: “Who is my disciple? First of all, let him follow strictly the disciplined rules.” Disciple: “As long as one is following, then he is…” Srila Prabhupada: “Then he is all right.” (Conversation, June 13, 1976, Detroit) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 But over the years, many fell and Prabhupada accepted them back even while he was physically present. He even married at least one sannyasi personally. And many disciples have fallen, knowingly or unknowingly. But are they all lost?Will Prabhupada forget their service, do you think? There's the ideal, yes, but practically we've seen that it isn't so easy to maintain the strict standards all throughout one's life. Perhaps it's up to Srila Prabhupada to decide whether to condemn or forgive. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 9, 2005 Report Share Posted June 9, 2005 What if there is no condemnation coming from His Divine Grace. Remaining in forgetfullness of Krsna is itself it's own condemnation. What else could befall us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 One time a Mataji's husband ran off with another woman. Prabhupada told her to tell him to come back, saying that "Prabhupada always fogives." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 10, 2005 Report Share Posted June 10, 2005 Meant to write, "Prabhupada always forgives." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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