Fanatics give religion a bad name

[Guest guest]

It is often said Christians are not respecting vaishnavas and they dont even allow them to build temples, or allow their members to convert out of christianity, and so forth. This has been tje common vaishnava accusation and it doesnt even have a solid basis. In fact, it has a certain bias.

 

First, vaishnavas should remember they're living in christian countries (like usa, uk etc.) and they should be happy that the christians are lettign them stay happily. Second, the vaishnavas have no right to convert christians through fraud, which is usually the case. Reg. temples, dont vaihanvas already have lots of temples. So why are they complaining?

 

The vaishnavas are giving their religion a bad name with their fanaticism. By doing so, they aren't earning the respect of the chrsitians. And that's not a good thing. I suggest vasihnavas give up their hatred and bigotry and start earning respect from the christians, who have generously given them a country to live in.

[Guest guest]

 

__________

I suggest vasihnavas give up their hatred and bigotry and start earning respect from the christians, who have generously given them a country to live in.

__________

 

NO SIR! Everything belongs to Krishna.

Ishawasyam idam sarvam

 

So a vaishnava has the right to go to any place his Father owns.

 

Hare Krishna

[Kulapavana]

"First, vaishnavas should remember they're living in christian countries (like usa, uk etc.) and they should be happy that the christians are lettign them stay happily."

 

first: there is a separation of church and state

second: christians stole these lands from other people, killing millions in the process.

[Guest guest]

The USA was formed after the systematic slaughter of millions of "native americans", so no, it is not a christian land. And, as another poster said, this land is owned by God, not man.

-Amit

[Guest guest]

But every land may have once belonged to someone else. If we go about it that way, we wouldn't reach any conclusion. Suffice it to say that the land NOW belongs to christians, whether they are practicing or secular or whatever. Forget about ancient history, where people killed and conquered each other. It's happened all over the world.

 

What's the reality now? Vaihnavas are living in Christian countries and they need to be gentle guests and not all that fanatical about their beliefs. The christians are trying very hard to tolerate the vaishanvas but unfortunately, the vasihnavas are too arrogant and fundamentalist. This is the source of tension between the two communities. My advice to you is, stop conversions, stop the hatred.

[sweetmerkaba]

Chrstians belives are based on fear and guilt,

 

you christans give god a bad name, turning him into a judgmental being, that will eaither send you to hell for ETERNITY, or take you to some bios heaven?

 

Do you really think, once we die, we will keep this human form?

 

Keep being afraid of your god,

 

while we will continue chanting hare krishna, and continue loving god.

[Kulapavana]

"Vaihnavas are living in Christian countries and they need to be gentle guests and not all that fanatical about their beliefs."

 

yes, we could all behave better. christians could show some humility as well. ultimately, we are all guests here on this earth, which belongs to our Father.

 

as to the past sins and mistakes: one who diregards the lessons from the past, is bound to repeat them. just because many years passed since christians stole this land from native people and exterminated most of them in the proces, does not make it a non-issue. blood of these people is still on your hands my christian friend...

 

 

 

"My advice to you is, stop conversions, stop the hatred."

 

maybe you should tell that to your fellow christians converting people in India with your typical approach of giving poor people some food and scaring them with hell? there is no religion with more hatred towards other faiths than the abrahamic religion, of which christianity is but one example. you people butchered more "heathens" in the name of your religion than just about anybody else combined.

[Guest guest]

claim to love god, when there is so much misery all around. At least, fear of god seems natural...you fear an entity that's created a world of sorrow. Think about it. Never try to love god, fear him. That's the only possibility.

[Guest guest]

Christians convert in order to save heathens from ignorance. It is born of compassion. Vaishnava type of conversions are of a fanatical nature. Surely, you can understand the difference?

 

REg. the past, no one stole nobody's land! Did the natives have ownership rights back then? ALso, in those times, all people in the world, not just christians but muslims, hoindus, jews, persians, greeks, romans were all fighting for land, wealth, power and so on. And the best man won. that's all. Life is hard. Only the strong survive. That's teh law of nature, and that's why you have conquerors and slaves. Do not give it a religios color. Suppose the natives had defeated christians, would you say natives practiced religious bigotry.

[Kulapavana]

"Christians convert in order to save heathens from ignorance. It is born of compassion. Vaishnava type of conversions are of a fanatical nature."

 

he he... whatever... you are obviously one of them blind bible thumpers. if Kali steals a cow = good. if someone steals the cow from Kali = bad... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

..."And the best man won" Best by what standards? best in killing others? these are all animalistic considerations.

 

"Suppose the natives had defeated christians, would you say natives practiced religious bigotry."

 

no, I would say they had defeated ruthless invaders and thieves. only abrahamic people conquer others in the name of their religions. christians, moslems or jews they all steal and kill in the name of their religions. this is how they "save others from ignorance" (while they wallow in their own brand of it).

[Guest guest]

 

Christians convert in order to save heathens from ignorance. It is born of compassion.

 

 

That isn't true. Christians convert Hindus because the Hindus in question either want:

(a) A Christian person as a sexual partner

(b) the chance to eat meat without feeling guilty

© the freedom to drink liquor without feeling guilty

(d) all of the above.

 

In my experience, (a) and (d) are the most common reasons. There is almost never a philosophical reason for it. In my conversations with Hindus-turned-Christian, they would always try to throw up a smokescreen of apparently philosophical objections, but when I dug deep enough, it was always a woman and/or more freedoms to commit sinful activites that was at the heart of the conversation.

 

Another common factor to these Hindus-turned-Christians is that they allege all kinds of things about the Vedas, but none of them have ever studied the Vedas. It kind of goes without saying that you have to study the religion in order to know the religion, and that you have to know the religion in order to criticize it. That is known as honesty, but I rarely see it among the Christian converts.

 

 

REg. the past, no one stole nobody's land! Did the natives have ownership rights back then?

 

 

Interesting. So why is it that the Native Americans had no ownership rights "back then," and yet Christians have ownership rights now? What gives one community ownership rights while the other does not? This is yet another example of the typical Christian conceit: we say this land is ours, and so it is ours, even if it really belonged to someone else.

 

 

ALso, in those times, all people in the world, not just christians but muslims, hoindus, jews, persians, greeks, romans were all fighting for land, wealth, power and so on. And the best man won. that's all. Life is hard. Only the strong survive.

 

 

Here we see another animalistic trait of the contemporary Christian community, specifically their belief that "Might makes right." When Christians are attacked, they will raise a hue and cry over it. But when Christians attack and commit genocide of other cultures, it is justified based on strength. It isn't just uncivilized. It's hypocrisy.

 

All in all, I'm glad these Christians post here so we can see their true colors. When they enslave you, it's ok, because they were stronger. When they kill every last one of your people, that's also ok, because God willed it. Only the strong survive. This is the compassion of Christianity.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ever think of this? Maybe religion has given fanaticism a bad name. After, religiosity is put in the same catagory as sense gratification, economic development, and liberation, and all are considered mundane activities. Krsna tells us to give up ALL VARIETIES of religion, and surrender to HIM.

 

So, I feel bad for all the fanatics out there that have been fouled up by religion. Religion is what made them fanatics, otherwise they would be warriors, freedom fighters, liberators, strictly on the social political level.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

"I feel bad for all the fanatics out there that have been fouled up by religion. Religion is what made them fanatics, otherwise they would be warriors, freedom fighters, liberators, strictly on the social political level."

 

yes, in Kali yuga demonic people use religion to whip up fanaticism in their followers. that is why certain forms of religion are much WORSE than being a regular materialist. no wonder many good people turn away from such bogus religions.

 

[krsna]

Shrila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura quotes:

 

Patrikara Uddesya, Sajjana Tosani:

 

"In the name of bhakti in many places people are engaged in illicit or

anti-bhakti activities in the name of practicing bhakti. If one does

not expose those issues (cases) very clearly, then pure-bhakti will

never be victorious or be established."

 

Bheka-dharana, Sajjana Tosani.

 

"One should compulsorily engage in endeavouring to trying to uplift

the

Vaisnava-dharma from the mud of contamination and trying to free it

from all kinds of dauratmya (wrong ideas and practices)."

 

[krsna]

From the Great Favor, a Harmonist article,

 

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta

Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada:

 

"A chanter of the Kirtan of Hari is necessarily the uncompromising

enemy of wordliness and hypocrisy. As chanter of the Kirtan of Hari,

it

is the constant function to dispell all misconceptions by the

preaching

of the truth in the most unambiguous form without any respect of

person, place or time. That form is to be adopted which is least

likely

to be misunderstood. It is his bounden duty to oppose clearly and

frankly any person who tries to deceive and harm himself and other

people by misrepresenting the Truth due to malice or bonafide

misunderstanding.

 

This will be possible if the chanter of Kirtan is always prepared to

submit to be trodden by thoughtless people if any discomfort to

himself

will enable him to do good to his persecutors by chanting the Truth in

the most unambiguous manner. If he is unwilling or afraid of

considerations of self-respect or personal discomfort to chant the

Kirtan under all circumstances he is unfit to be a preacher of the

Absolute Truth. Humility implies perfect submission to the Truth and

no

sympathy for untruth. A person who entertains any partiality for

untruth is unfit to chant the kirtan of Hari. Any clinging to untruth

is opposed to the principle of humility born of absolute submission to

the truth.

 

Those who serve the Truth at all time, by means of all their

faculties,

and have no hankering for the trivialities of this world, are always

necessarily free from malice born of competing worldliness and are,

therefore, fit to admonish those who are actively engaged in harming

themselves and others by the method of opposing or misrepresenting the

Truth in order to attain rewards of such policy in the shape of a

perpetuation of the state of misery and ignorance. The method which is

employed by the servant of the good preceptor for preventing such

misrepresentation of the truth is a part and parcel of the truth

itself.

 

It may not always be pleasing to the diseased susceptibilities of

deluded minds and may even be denounced by them as a malicious act

with

which they are only too familiar, but the words of truth from the lips

of a loyal and humble servant of Hari possess such beneficent power

that all effort to suppress or obstruct them only serves to vindicate

to impartial minds the necessity of complete submission to the

Absolute

Truth as the only cure of the disease of wordliness. Humility that is

employed in the unambiguous service of the Truth is necessarily and

qualitatively different from its perverted prototype which is

practised

by the cunning people of this world for gaining their worldly ends.

The

professors of pseudo-humility have reason to be afraid of the

preachings of the servants of Hari -- one of whose duties is to expose

the enormous possibility of mischief that is possessed by the forms of

so-called spiritual conduct -- when they are taken to task for serving

the untruth.

 

*********************************

 

Truth spoken concisely is real eloquence.*****

 

[Guest guest]

The Truth is that those that are practicing piety whatever they may be called, are the very pillars of those societies, west or east that uphold those countries from sliding into total decadence and anarchy.

Real Vaisnavas are such that their very presence in the lands of sense gratification (materialism) voidism and confused theistic faiths, are truelly Godsent even if those with lower spiritual evolution can't recognize them.

Vaisnavas come only to give relief from misconception and religious fanaticism, what many so-called Christians fear and are concerned about these days is that some eastern practices are eroding the rather unstable faiths of them being the only chosen souls fit to receive the kingdom of God.

The vaisnavas sacrifice and hence service to God if seen with unbiased vision is obviously more extended than most other religious conceptions and therefore represents a threat to others luke-warm insecurity.

But the vaisnavas don't have to be feared, for they come as well wishing friends to all and if they are given due honor, instead of opposition and intolerance then the Supreme Lord who dwells within the heart of all will be most pleased and give some insight and entrance into His more accomodating Kingdom.

[Guest guest]

Disciple: But the Christians state that Jesus Christ says, “I am the way, the truth and the life and no man comes to the father except through me,.”

Srila Sridhara Maharaj: Some accept the Bible, some accept the Koran, some may accept Bhagavad Gita, but when there is a comparison to be drawn, one must come out of their local bigotry, into the broad light under the sky. They will have to compare and reject and accept, it is everywhere. Every nation boasts, “We are the first class power,” but when there is hate and war and all are on the battlefield, then it is decided who is who. Russia says, “I have got power to control the whole world.” At the beginning of the second great war, the Emperor of Japan said, “We are prepared for one hundred years at war. The Europeans will fight to the finish, and I will be the emperor of the whole world.” But what you think is one thing and reality another, and history now tells something else. So with an open mind we are to go through and make a comparative study of all teachings. In the course of that we will find that the Indian religious writers in a space and time have covered such avast span and most ancient it is. In the Bible it is said that the world was created some thousands of years ago, a very naive concept. But Indian theology says that there has been so many dissolution’s and evolution’s, solar systems dissolved and again they have sprung up. Both geographically and historically, what has been given in the Indian theological books, these other theologies cannot come into comparison. It also struck me, that beyond this body they can also gather knowledge. Such graphic and spacious findings have been delivered and distributed by the propagators of the Aryan scriptures. That always attracted me. That is the most spacious of all the religious conceptions.

Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu have come to invite and accept one and all with such a generous and all accommodating attempt. Still at the same time, if we feel they want to take us to the highest stage of life then we shall have to consider Their process, and follow step by step, to reach that supreme destination.

So many classes of imitation are there, it is very difficult to understand from this jungle of different conceptions of imitationists. So to find the genuine thing is very difficult, hence the process, the steps of progress should not be omitted. It is given to us as to how we are to enquire, as to how we have to serve the method by a scientific investigation. Step by step we come to a conclusion, but if we take short cuts, the answer may be wrong.

 

[gHari]

Victims of their conditioning, are not people bound to act like fools when confronted with religion?<blockquote>O son of PRthA, that understanding which cannot distinguish between religion and irreligion, between action that should be done and action that should not be done, is in the mode of passion. [bG 18.31]

 

That understanding which considers irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion, under the spell of illusion and darkness, and strives always in the wrong direction, O PArtha, is in the mode of ignorance. [bG 18.32]

 

</blockquote>

The scribes have turned Jesus into a cheap teacher of morals. There is no need to convert Christians, but there is a need to serve Jesus and reestablish his teaching in the worlds of rajo and tamo. The scribes and Pharisees have reclaimed their mundane religion business. The people are not being told why religion is important - moment to moment. By example, the Vaishnava serves as a valuable witness to the glory of God. His humble presence is most needed everywhere in the world now more than ever.

 

 

[gHari]

We must help spread the good news as revealed nicely in Bhagavad-gita 15.5:<blockquote><CENTER><font color="RED">nirmAna-mohA jita-saGga-doSA

adhyAtma-nityA vinivRtta-kAmAH

dvandvair vimuktAH sukha-duHkha-saMjJair

gacchanty amUDhAH padam avyayaM tat

</CENTER>

niH--without; mAna--false prestige; mohAH--and illusion; jita--having conquered; saGga--of association; doSAH--the faults; adhyAtma--in spiritual knowledge; nityAH--in eternity; vinivRtta--disassociated; kAmAH--from lust; dvandvaiH--from the dualities; vimuktAH--liberated; sukha-duHkha--happiness and distress; saMjJaiH--named; gacchanti--attain; amUDhAH--unbewildered; padam--situation; avyayam--eternal; tat--that.

</font>

Those who are free from false prestige, illusion and false association, who understand the eternal, who are done with material lust, who are freed from the dualities of happiness and distress, and who, unbewildered, know how to surrender unto the Supreme Person attain to that eternal kingdom.

 

PURPORT

The surrendering process is described here very nicely. The first qualification is that one should not be deluded by pride. Because the conditioned soul is puffed up, thinking himself the lord of material nature, it is very difficult for him to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One should know by the cultivation of real knowledge that he is not lord of material nature; the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the Lord. When one is free from delusion caused by pride, he can begin the process of surrender. For one who is always expecting some honor in this material world, it is not possible to surrender to the Supreme Person. Pride is due to illusion, for although one comes here, stays for a brief time and then goes away, he has the foolish notion that he is the lord of the world. He thus makes all things complicated, and he is always in trouble. The whole world moves under this impression. People are considering the land, this earth, to belong to human society, and they have divided the land under the false impression that they are the proprietors. One has to get out of this false notion that human society is the proprietor of this world. When one is freed from such a false notion, he becomes free from all the false associations caused by familial, social and national affections. These faulty associations bind one to this material world. After this stage, one has to develop spiritual knowledge. One has to cultivate knowledge of what is actually his own and what is actually not his own. And when one has an understanding of things as they are, he becomes free from all dual conceptions such as happiness and distress, pleasure and pain. He becomes full in knowledge; then it is possible for him to surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.</blockquote>

 

Real Audio lecture by Nagaraja Dasa: <a href=http://www.chantandbehappy.com/bin/nagaraja/nagarajaBG15-5_12-31-03.ram>"BG 15.5 - Steps to Attain to the Eternal Kingdom"</a>

[AncientMariner]

If people are arguing over which is better and all that then they both have probably descended to the level of sectarian designations which wouldn't be consistent with the original intent of either Prabhupada or Jesus Christ.

Here are some quotes from Prabhupada.

 

"No. Tradition, religion, they are all material. They are also designation." (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, March 13th, 1975)

 

"Our only tradition is how to satisfy Vishnu." (Srila Prabhupada Lecture, July 30th, 1973)

 

"That tradition is nothing. Tradition is just temporary. You make your tradition; he makes your tradition. That is another thing. But the, fact is fact. That is not dependent on tradition. Tradition we can make, tradition. "We believe." Just like somebody says, "We believe." What is the use of such saying, "We believe"? You may believe something which is not fact." (Srila Prabhupada Conversation, February 13th, 1975)

 

 

"Shot through the heart and your to blame, you give love a bad name" - Bon Jovi

[gHari]

Amen, brother. Spread the GOOD NEWS like butter. Jesus came to tell us this to relieve our burden. Have we ears to hear Luke 4:43?<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> But Jesus said to them, `I must tell the good news to the people in other towns also. It is the news of God's Kingdom. I was sent to tell this.'</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

 

No matter what the various cult denominations say, this is Christianity - just ask Jesus, listen to his preaching. Religion has no other message. "It is the news of God's Kingdom. I was sent to tell this."