krsna Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 by Srutakirti das Posted June 18, 2005 I can only speak for myself and, in this case, Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada always accepted what he read in the sastra as the Absolute Truth. In 1975, when he was translating the 5th Canto in Australia, he called Parmahansa and myself into the room and said, "Now I am convinced we never went to the moon." He told us the reason he was 'convinced' was that, while he was translating that early morning, he read how the moon was further away from us than the sun. As soon as he saw clear evidence in the Bhagavatam, he was satisfied with the conclusion. He didn't care that modern scientists had proof that could refute it. "Our knowledge should be through the sastra. That is practical. And our process of knowledge is this: we get knowledge from sastra, like Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Vedic knowledge. We do not claim to be very big scientists. That is not possible. But we get knowledge from the best scientific man or person, the Personality of Godhead, Krsna, Vyasadeva, Narada, Asita, Devala, later on the acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Sankaracarya, Caitanya. "Our process of knowledge is not any speculation: "It may be,Perhaps." No. We don't accept this knowledge. "It may be,Perhaps" -- these are all foolishness. That means one who has no perfect knowledge, he will say, "It may be,Perhaps." One who has definite knowledge, why he will say, "It may be"? It must be. "So far as we get information from Srimad-Bhagavatam, there is sun, then moon, according to Bhagavatam. We were talking about these things: whether the moon is the first planet or the sun is the first planet. So far as we understand from Vedic literature, the moon is the second planet. The sun is the first planet. "If we consider like that, then the moon is beyond the sun planet. The estimation is there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:1,600,000 miles above the sun, the moon is situated. Now, if we take consideration of the sun planet situated 93,000,000 miles from earth, then add 1,600,000 miles again, it comes to 95,000,000 miles away from the earthly planet. And how you can reach there in four days, 95,000,000 miles away? If we apply our common sense, then it appears they have never gone to the moon planet. It is all bogus propaganda. It is not possible." (Lecture, Nov. 28, 1975) Only a few days earlier he had asked me what the scientists would say when asked, "How can you know who your father is except by asking your mother?" When I responded they might say, "You have to accept your mother is telling the truth." He yelled loudly, "If you don't believe the sastra, what are you doing here?" How does one decide which are stories and which are real? Based on the scientist? Did Krishna lift Govardhana Hill? Did Lord Nrsimhadeva appear from a pillar? During the same visit to Australia, Srila Prabhupada told a devotee that if he didn't understand something in the sastra, he should focus on the parts he could accept. The following are Srila Prabhupada's words: "There are many invisible planets and stars. For example, when the Rahu planet passes before the sun and moon, there is an eclipse. But the scientists describe an eclipse differently. Actually, the Rahu planet causes an eclipse. There are many questionable points regarding the modern scientists' theory of the eclipse. Their explanation is incorrect according to Vedic information. "They say that science proves everything. But that is nonsense. The scientist has proved everything except what he is. That he does not know. And why does he die? That also he does not know. That is the extent of his knowledge. (Morning Walk Dec. 10, 1973) Thirty years later I am convinced that if you want to know who your father is, you have ask your mother and you can only understand Krishna through the eyes of the sastra and the pure devotee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Either way its not a big issue with me. The real problem is the tax money wasted when the tax money is meant to be kept by the king and distributed to the citizens in times of need. The citizens in the Kali-yuga are in an abominable condition because of the tax burden and the misuse of taxes by government agencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the moon landings were faked. This whole material manifestation is a false reality anyway so what would be new. But I cannot accept that the moon is farther away from Earth as the sun. Anyway it doesn't torture my mind either. But when people try to tell me I have to believe in all the descriptions found in the Bhagavatam or else I don't accept Krsna well.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I stopped using that example when DNA came availble. Also they did a study in an Oregon hospital some years ago and when checking DNA found that many of the children born there had fathers different then those listed by the mothers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 "But when people try to tell me I have to believe in all the descriptions found in the Bhagavatam or else I don't accept Krsna well......" Ultimately its the faith that reveals the essence of the Bhagavatam. I don't think you have to fully suspend your powers of discrimination and become a zombie to believe in Krsna. I simply refuse to believe that Krishna is an authoritarian tyrant to anyone that accepts his supremacy. Maybe I am just manufacturing my own system of believing in Krishna but even so at least I am happier now then before I read about Krishna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 December 27, 1968 Reporter: ...about the movement, and it occurred to me...I was wondering if there were any religious people in this country that had any misgivings or thoughts about the trip around the moon. And whether there were any objections or opinions that would run contrary to the usual thought about traveling to the moon, and he said that in some of your recent lectures you had said that man would not be able to land on the moon because of, now these are his words, because of spiritual beings there or that there would be an impossibility or something along that line. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that or explain what you meant. Prabhupada: You are particularly interested with that subject matter? Reporter: Yes. I told Dan that was what I was interested in. I have background information on the movement, for instance, and yourself. Prabhupada: Yes. So far the movement is concerned, it has nothing to do with the moon planetary journey, it has nothing to do. But in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the authoritative Vedic scripture which we generally follow, in that scripture there is statement that for promoting oneself to the moon planet, one has to accustom himself to the different kind of worshiping process. Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that yanti deva-vrata devan [bg. 9.25]. Those who are worshiper of the demigods, they are promoted to different planets of the particular demigods. Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah. And those who are worshiper of the pitrs, or forefathers, they go to that planet. Similarly, one who is engaged in worshiping the Supreme Lord, he also goes to the supreme planet. These informations are there in the Bhagavad-gita. And so far moon planet is concerned, that is within this material world. Those who are pious actors, those who are engaged in pious activities according to Vedic rituals, they can go to the moon planet. That is stated in the... Reporter: Those who are engaged in what activities? Prabhupada: Pious. There are two kinds of activities: vicious and pious. Reporter: Pious and... Prabhupada: Vicious. Reporter: Vicious? Prabhupada: Yes. So those who are engaged in vicious activities, they cannot go to that moon planet. And it is also stated that if somebody goes to the moon planet he gets duration of life very, very long period. Reporter: If someone goes to the moon planet... Prabhupada: Yes. He has a long duration of life there in that moon planet. Reporter: I guess I didn't understand. Prabhupada: Just like we are living here at most hundred years, but they can live there ten thousand years. Do you follow? Just like different forms of body have got different duration of life. A dog lives for six years or a cow lives for twenty years, a man lives for hundred years. Similarly, the residents of moon planet, they live for very, very long time, ten thousands of years. Reporter: The residents of the moon live for a long time? Thousands of years? Prabhupada: Thousands of years. Reporter: Now are you talking about... Prabhupada: This information we get from Srimad-Bhagavatam. Srimad-Bhagavatam, this book. I have rendered into English. Reporter: Which book is this? Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam. Reporter: Was this a book which you wrote or translated or... Prabhupada: Translated and commented. Reporter: Translations and comments. Prabhupada: Yes. Similarly, I have translated this book also. This is being published by Macmillan company, one of the biggest publisher of your country. Yes. I have published this book... Reporter: Were you referring to this book when you meant, when you said residents of the moon, do you mean people that go there to live or that are... Prabhupada: They are there already. In every planet there are living entities, residents. Reporter: And this is written in this book. Prabhupada: Yes. Srimad-Bhagavatam. There is a vivid description of different planets in Srimad-Bhagavatam. There are innumerable planets within this universe and all of them are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The sun planet, the moon planet, and other planets, they are all vividly described, what kind of residents there are, their mode of living, everything is there. Reporter: Now Dan not only said that you said that if people try to land on the moon they would not be able to. Can you explain what you meant by that? Prabhupada: Yes, it is very common sense. Suppose if somebody wants to land on your country, America. You do not allow. There are so many restrictions, visas, passport, and immigration. And how do you expect to land there, all of a sudden there? They are so intelligent and their duration of life so long. They are far advanced in knowledge. Everything they're advanced. So you cannot expect in that way to land there. This is common sense affair. Besides that, the scientists also agree that the temperature there is two hundred degrees below zero, so how you can expect to land there and live there? Reporter: In other words, you don't... How do you yourself feel? Do you feel that if the United States or the Soviet Union were to attempt a landing and their spacecraft went down, what do you yourself expect... Prabhupada: No, so far our calculation goes, from the books, nobody can do so. That is impossible. Reporter: Well, does the book say that it would be impossible for anyone to even approach it? At what point would it be impossible... Prabhupada: Impossible means the process by which you are trying to reach there. Reporter: To live there. Prabhupada: No, to reach there. Reporter: Oh, to leave there. Prabhupada: Leave there and reach there also. Reach. Reporter: Reach, I see. But would the flight that was just completed, that doesn't contradict with anything in this book? I mean they were within, I don't know, so many miles... Prabhupada: But so far we have got information, no flight has been successful to land there till now. So I do not think how they are going to be successful in the future. This process, just like we are going from one place to another by motor car or by airplane, this process will not help us to go to the moon planet. The process is different as described in the Vedic literature. One has to qualify. Reporter: What would be, when you say impossible for one to land or to reach the moon's surface. Prabhupada: Just like why you speak of moon? Suppose in the ocean, in the ocean you can land by some artificial means for some time, but it is not suitable for human being to live on the ocean. Apart from moon planet, you take the ocean, water, ocean. Hayagriva: You can't live in the ocean. It's a different atmosphere. You cannot live on the moon because the climate is so different. You can't survive on the moon. Prabhupada: Everything is different. You require different type of body to live there, to go there. Just like if you want to live within the water, this body will not be suitable. But the fish, it has got a type of body, they live very peacefully. Similarly, the residents of moon planet, they are meant for living there. You cannot go and live there, abruptly. That is not possible. Hayagriva: Swamiji? Are there people living on the moon now or were they in other yugas living there? Are they in this yuga living there? Prabhupada: No, they're still living there. Yes. As we are living here, they are living there. Yes. Reporter: And how would you describe these people that live there? Would they be invisible to us or visible? Prabhupada: Almost invisible, yes. Hayagriva: Spiritual body. Prabhupada: Not spiritual. That is also material. Hayagriva: Like ghost bodies? Subtle bodies? Prabhupada: Yes. Hayagriva: Excuse me. Reporter: Okay, thank you. Thank you. (door closes) Hayagriva: Their bodies are subtle bodies. They're not like gross bodies. Prabhupada: Just like... You try to understand me, that this matter, consisting of five elements, earth, air; earth, water, air...earth, water, fire, air, ether. And then, still subtler than ether is the mind, and then, subtler than the mind is intelligence, and subtler than intelligence is the spirit soul. So before we reach our spiritual platform, there are so many elementary material platforms. So in different planets one of the element is prominent. Just like we can experience in the ocean and sea the water is prominent. In the land earth is prominent. Similarly, in different, just like in the sun planet fire is prominent. So in each and every planet there are particular type of body, particular type of residents. You cannot expect that the same type of body and same type of residents are there. Reporter: Now, in a way, when you talk about this, you're getting into an area which to outsiders would be interpreted as a type of prophecy since... Prabhupada: No, it is not prophecy. We have got this description in the Vedic literature. We are speaking on the strength of authority of Vedas. We are not prophesying. Reporter: Speaking on the strength of... Prabhupada: Of the Vedic literature. Hayagriva: V-e-d-i-c. Reporter: Oh, on Vedic literature. Prabhupada: Yes. We don't talk anything which is not authorized by the Vedic literature. That is our process. Reporter: So let me see if I can summarize correctly your views on this, that it would be impossible for human beings to land on the moon planet? Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: I wonder if you could explain how it would be impossible, to what extent. I mean whether... Prabhupada: The same example as I have already given, that if you want to reside in ocean water, is it possible? If you want to construct a city like New York in the ocean, is it possible? Reporter: No, but what if they had resided in the ocean or on the ocean for a short period... Prabhupada: Anywhere. Any, in the ocean or on the ocean, you cannot build up a city like Los Angeles or New York. That is impossible. So even in your presence, in different atmosphere, you cannot go and live. So similarly, the moon planet is completely different atmosphere. How you can live and go? Reporter: But, of course, they're not going there to build a city, but they're only going there to take some rock samples, do some experiments, and then leave. Prabhupada: That may be possible. Just like you go in the ocean and live for some time and come back, but you cannot make any permanent settlement there. Yes. But that also I am doubtful whether you can land and take some, I mean to say, earth or water from there. That is also very difficult. So far our literature goes, our information goes, it is not possible. Reporter: Do you think that the, say astronauts that would land on the moon, do you think they would encounter any difficulty in going about and doing what they wanted to and then leaving? Prabhupada: The first thing is that according to our knowledge from the Vedic literature they cannot go there. Reporter: But you admitted that it may be possible for them to go there for a short time and leave. Prabhupada: That I am taking this example just like we go for a short time on the sea but we cannot make any permanent settlement there. Reporter: Yeah. But according to the Vedic literature they cannot go there. Prabhupada: Yes. In this body we cannot go there. With this body we cannot go there. We shall have to change this body. Either you do it scientifically or spiritually or by any other method. With this body you cannot go there. You have to prepare a similar body which is suitable for living condition there. Reporter: Would a spacesuit substitute for that? Prabhupada: Space? Reporter: In other words, the spacesuits that the astronauts wear... Prabhupada: I don't think so. I don't think so. Spacesuits are... Reporter: You see I'm a little confused because I can't tell whether you feel that based on Vedic literature, that you said it may be possible for them to land and to return for a short visit, yet you say they cannot go with this body. Prabhupada: Yes. I say also this, that to land there you must have the specific body suitable for that place. Reporter: To land there you must have... Prabhupada: The specific body. Reporter: I didn't get that. Hayagriva: A specific body. Prabhupada: Now that specific body, if you are able to make by your modern science, then it may be possible. But you have to change your body to that specific condition. But the spacedress which is now being used, that is not useful. Reporter: The space uniform, you don't feel that is adequate? Prabhupada: Space uniform, that is not adequate. Reporter: Now what about the beings that live on the moon planet? Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: Do you feel that they would interfere with any experiments or persons from earth landing there or trying to land there? Say, even if they had some specific body change or came up with a spacesuit that would withstand any changes in temperature... Prabhupada: The first thing is that with this body you, neither you can land there nor interfere with their business. The first thing is. The scientists say that the temperature in moon planet is two hundred degree less than zero. Is it not? Reporter: I don't know. Prabhupada: Howard? Hayagriva: It's very cold. Prabhupada: Very cold. So even taking the scientific statement, how you can live there if it is two hundred degree below the zero degree? Reporter: Well I don't know unless they intend to land at a time that... Prabhupada: No. There is suggestion of the scientist that there the temperature is two hundred degree below zero. I have read some paper. So if it is a fact then how you can live? You feel uncomfortable even in the Arctic region within this planet. How you can go and stay there even for a few minutes where two hundred degree... Reporter: Yes, that's an argument based on logic,... Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: ...and given the information about the degrees... But obviously, they're going ahead with plans to do so, and you have a transition period, for instance, between the part of the moon that is in sunlight and the part that is darkness. Prabhupada: That I've already admitted, that by modern scientific method if you can change the condition of your present body then you can go. It may be possible, but that is very remote. Reporter: Well do you rule out talking about the beings living on the moon planet? Do you disregard talking about that because you feel it is too remote to chance that anyone would ever land there or do you have any feelings... Prabhupada: Remote chance in the present way of going there. But this is not remote. If one wants to go there, there is a particular ritualistic process. If you adopt that, then you can go in your next life. That means after quitting this body you get a different body and you get your birth there. That is Vedic process. Reporter: Did you say through a particular ritualistic process you can go there in your next life? Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: Okay. Now I still want to find out if you have any feelings about, say, if... Prabhupada: Going there with this body? Reporter: Yes. Prabhupada: No. I am not very much optimistic. Almost I say it is impossible. Reporter: But if the impossible happened and they were able to safely land on the moon's surface do you feel they would have any difficulty or encounter any trouble with the beings that you say live there? Prabhupada: The trouble is already there. You are going with great difficulty and if you land there you may die immediately. Everything is finished. You are already encountering the difficulty. It is not very easy. The Russian scientists, the American scientists, they're trying for the last ten years. Still, they have not approached the moon planet. So difficulty is already there. Reporter: Yes, there are difficulties but still people feel... Prabhupada: Just like the Russians advertised that "We are going there in 1965," they advertised to sell land. So these are utopian. You see? Somebody wanted to purchase land in the Russia. And they advertise also that they have plucked their flag, Sea of Moscow. What is this? Reporter: Well, my point is that I was trying to determine if there are any particular religious beliefs... Prabhupada: It is not religious belief. It is not religious belief. It is fact. Reporter: Well, I mean not... Prabhupada: Knowledge received from Vedic sources. You are talking on the source of knowledge from the modern scientific books, similarly, we are talking also on the source of knowledge received from Vedas. It is not a religious belief or faith, blind faith. We are not inventing anything. We are talking on the basis of authoritative knowledge contained in the Vedas. Reporter: Does this basis of knowledge include any information about beings and how they would react to people from another planet? Is there anything containing, you know, how they would react? How the moon people react to the earth people coming there? Prabhupada: Of course, such description is not in the Vedas, but in some sources we can understand that one king wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom, but he was opposed. He was opposed by the demigods. So much information we have got. So those who are not fit to live there or enter there, maybe they will be opposed by the inhabitants there. And that is also natural to think. If somebody all of a sudden comes to your country, oh, there is immediately immigration department. They will see the bona fides, how you can enter? So why don't you take that also? If moon planet is inhabited by more intelligent class of living entities how do we expect that without opposition we will be allowed to enter? Reporter: So they are said to be a more intelligent entities. Prabhupada: Oh yes. Oh yes. They are living ten thousand years, they are not intelligent? Their standard of living, their mode of civilization, their mode of thinking, everything is higher than this planet. Reporter: Is this from this book? Prabhupada: Yes. Hayagriva: You say they may not be visible to us, though. Prabhupada: Yes. Hayagriva: To these material eyes they are not visible. Prabhupada: Yes. So many things are not visible to our eyes. Reporter: And when you speak of the analogies of one, say, a foreigner coming to another country and wanting to do whatever he wants to do there and being rejected or opposed by the inhabitants of that country, do you say only by analogy that there might be opposition to earth people? Prabhupada: No. There are informations. Somebody trying to enter in the heavenly planet was opposed because he was not qualified. Reporter: So then because of this example are you saying that if earth people were able to land on the moon that they would be...? Prabhupada: First of all, my first conviction is they will never be able. But even they are able, I do not know how they will be easily received. Reporter: You do not know how? Prabhupada: They will easily admitted. Reporter: You said you don't know how they would easily be received or admitted. Prabhupada: Yes, by the residents there. Reporter: The word "easily" there I don't know how that would... You don't know how they would be received, whether they would be hostile or friendly. Prabhupada: Naturally, when I oppose, then I must be hostile. Reporter: Yes. And you expect that they would oppose? Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: The example of the king that wanted to enter the heavenly kingdom and was opposed, is this in this book also? Prabhupada: Yes. Reporter: And he was opposed by the demigods? Prabhupada: Demigods, or the residents in the heavenly planet. Hayagriva: Like I mentioned, there are three planets, three... There are the lower planetary systems, middle planetary systems, and higher planetary systems. And this earth is considered to be in the middle planetary system of the universe. It's called a middle planet. Reporter: Would that relate to anything that we're talking about? Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that there are three planetary system, upper, lower and middle. So urdhvam gacchanti, those who are in the modes of goodness, they are allowed to live in the upper planetary system. And those who are in the modes of passion, they are allowed to live in this middle planetary system, and those who are in the modes of ignorance, they are allowed to live in the lower planetary system. Reporter: Now where would the moon planet fit? Prabhupada: Moon planet is the upper. That is the beginning of upper planetary system. Still upper, upper, upper, there are many layers. Reporter: Now can you explain to me, I have some background information about the Krsna consciousness society, but I don't know how to explain it in relation to the broad word Hinduism. Now how do you relate the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to Hinduism? How would you describe it, as a part of Hinduism? Prabhupada: No. Hinduism practically we do not recognize because this word "Hinduism" is not mentioned in any Vedic literature. It is a foreign term. The Muhammadans, they called the inhabitants of India as "Hindus." From that word, it is has come to "Hinduism." Otherwise, we don't find that word in any Vedic literature. "Hinduism" is a foreign term, it is not a Vedic term. Reporter: Yes. The Krsna consciousness, its Vedic literature, they have some of the same books or also holy books for what we call Hindu religions, aren't they? Prabhupada: Yes. Just try to understand, the inhabitants of India were called by the Muhammadans from Persia and other places, "Hindus.Hindus" means the resident on the other side of the River Indus. You have heard the name of River Indus. So they cannot pronounce it Indus, they say "Hindus." From "Hindus," it has become "Hindu." So actually the residents of India were called "Hindus." And generally, at least in, say, three thousand years ago, all the inhabitants of India were strictly followers of Vedic principles. After the advent of Lord Buddha, a different religious system developed. Otherwise, before Lord Buddha, there was all the... Not only in India, in other parts of the world. They were followers of Vedic principles. So in that sense, you can say if followers of Vedic principles are called Hindus, then before Lord Buddha, everyone was Hindu all over the world. Not that particular part of India. So far we have got historical reference from Mahabharata, Indo-European stock, they are also Hindus, the so-called Hindus, followers of Vedic principles. Yes. Gradually, they deviated. Just like recently there is division of Pakistan and India. Twenty years before, this Pakistan was part of India. Now, these Muhammadans, they did not come from outside. They changed their faith from Hindus to Muhammadans. Now they divided their property. Similarly, actually the whole planet was called Bharata-varsa. Gradually, people deviated from Vedic principles or imitated something else and they became different. Reporter: Considering that the people, say, the space program in the United States, was able to achieve its goals for this current flight they just finished and do what they wanted to do... Prabhupada: No, can you inform me... Recently you told me that they're within sixty miles from the moon planet? Is that a fact? Reporter: I'm afraid I don't know. I don't know what the mileage was. Hayagriva: They circled it. They circled the moon at sixty miles. Prabhupada: So if they're, I mean to say, circumambulating within sixty miles, how they could not land? They could not go further sixty miles? Reporter: Well, they didn't want to land at this time. Prabhupada: Why this? Reporter: That was to test their ability. Prabhupada: Why didn't? Hayagriva: They didn't have the mechanism ready. Prabhupada: But for sixty miles, fifty miles, if they could stand sixty miles off from the moon planet, they were already on the atmosphere. Suppose if I am sixty miles away from a city, I am in that atmosphere. So if I could stay that atmosphere, how it is possible that, how it is wonderful that they could not go further sixty miles? I don't believe these things, these statements, that they were within sixty miles area. This is simply imagination. Reporter: Well, they didn't take along the spaceship that they need that they... Prabhupada: Anyway, anyway, just like I am inhabitant of Vrndavana. Vrndavana, that is ninety miles off from New Delhi. The atmosphere is almost the same. So, if I could live at Vrndavana, I could live at New Delhi also. So if they stayed sixty miles off from moon planet how is it that they could not go further sixty miles? This is most ludicrous. At least, we cannot believe such things. Sixty miles is no much difference. It is almost in the same atmosphere. Reporter: If the space program, either the Russian or the American program, which have plans to try to land on the moon and return safely, if this is successful, do you think this accomplishment would hurt the Krsna movement in the United States? It would contradict Vedic... Prabhupada: Why? First thing is even they are successful, according to our principle, it is simply waste of time. Because we are not concerned even with the moon planet. We are trying to go to the planet of Krsna from where nobody returns back to this wretched condition of life. So the wretched condition of life is as good in moon planet as it is in this earth planet. And do you know what is the wretched condition of life? Yes. The birth, death, old age and disease. This is the wretched condition of life. So you cannot avoid this wretched condition of life in the moon planet also. There is birth, death, old age and disease. But where we are trying to go by Krsna consciousness, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. So even there are, people are successful to go to the moon planet, what connection we have got there? We are not at all concerned with any planet where there is birth, death and old age and disease. Even in the highest planet of this universe. Reporter: Well, what I'm getting at is that if for instance you say that first this conviction that they would not be able to land, and secondly that whatever earth people would go there would be opposed and would not be able to safely return, if you say this, based on Vedic literature, and other members of the Krsna movement heard this, and then if the feat were accomplished, would this not seem a contradiction or something that had been said would be the case and then the opposite was proved true? Would this... Prabhupada: What is that contradiction? There is nothing contradiction. We say that if you get a suitable body you can enter there. So if by your scientific process you can equip yourself with suitable body you can enter there. Where is the contradiction? Reporter: Well, you said that spacesuit was not a suitable... Prabhupada: That is a fact. That is a fact. That is not suitable. Reporter: That's the way they intend to go. Prabhupada: That is, that is not, that we can safely say that with this suit you cannot go there. You have to make a different suit. Perhaps you do not know that. Reporter: Okay, then let's say that if with that suit they do go there and do return, would that be a contradiction? Prabhupada: Why contradiction? We say that if you get a suitable suit you can go there. Where is the contradiction? Reporter: Well I thought you said the spacesuit was not suitable. Prabhupada: Yes. Spacesuit is not suitable. But if you can go with the spacesuit that may be contradiction, but that I am certain you cannot go. Reporter: I'm confused. Prabhupada: I say... Just try to understand me, that if you can prepare a suitable body, you can go there. But this spacesuit is not the suitable body. Is that all right? Now if you actually go there by this spacesuit, that will be contradiction to my statement, but I am certain you cannot do that. Reporter: I see. Prabhupada: Yes. So there will be no contradiction. Just clearly try to understand. Reporter: Okay. Then I'll try to repeat what you said and see if I am correct. Prabhupada: I'll repeat. I'll repeat. First thing is that to enter into the moon planet you have to prepare yourself for a different body. If that body, you think that it is already made by the spacesuit, spacesuit is that different body, then it will be contradiction to my statement. But I say that with the spacesuit that you have manufactured, that is not fit to enter there. Now it is clear? The spacesuit is not fit for entering there. Is that clear? Reporter: Yes. Prabhupada: Now if by chance with this spacesuit you enter there, that will be contradiction, that nobody can enter. But I say you can enter there with a suitable body. If you think that the spacesuit is that suitable body then you can enter there. But I think this spacesuit is not that suitable body. Reporter: If I think the spacesuit is suitable... Prabhupada: For entering that moon planet... That is your statement, but I say that spacesuit is not suitable for entering into the... Reporter: If I think the spacesuit is suitable and, say, if I am an astronaut and I land there, I can land there? Prabhupada: If it is suitable. First thing that if it is suitable you can land. But to my opinion it is not suitable. Therefore you cannot land. Reporter: Well... So then you are not saying then that it would be impossible for... Prabhupada: That I never say. I say in the beginning that in order to enter moon planet you have to get a suitable type of body. That suitable type of body is not that spacesuit. Therefore the conclusion is that you cannot enter with this spacesuit. Is it clear? Reporter: That part is clear, but not if other questions are asked. Prabhupada: Other questions you may ask. Other, that is future hope. That is not a fact. You are trusting in future that with this spacesuit you will be able to enter there. That you are believing. But similarly, I have got my belief from the authoritative scripture that you cannot. Reporter: Well, all I know is what they plan to do and what they've done so far. So in view of what they hope to do, that's... Prabhupada: Well, that hoping... That hoping also, from practical point of view... Just like the other day the information was they were sixty miles off from the moon planet and still they could not enter. I do not know what kind of statement it is. If you go to some place just sixty miles off from that place and you are trying for so many years, you should be inquisitive. "Oh, let me go there sixty miles further. Let me see." Reporter: Well it's like you walk near a theater and you don't have a ticket. You might be able to walk around the theater... Prabhupada: Then you come to my conclusion that your ticket is insufficient. You cannot enter there. Then you support my statement. Then you support me, that you cannot enter there. Reporter: Then you support me. Prabhupada: Why? I don't support you. I say that you cannot enter. You are supporting me. You say that I have no ticket, therefore I could not enter. Reporter: And these astronauts did not have the ticket... Prabhupada: Therefore my statement is that you cannot enter in this way, therefore you support me. What do you think? Huh? Hayagriva: They haven't been able to enter yet. Prabhupada: Therefore they haven't got the ticket. Even going near sixty miles, still they could not enter. So they are supporting my statement. Whether you admit or not, this? If they could not enter even being off sixty miles, then my statement is strongly supported, that you cannot enter. You go, you went there sixty miles up to, just off sixty miles; still you could not. Reporter: Well, I think I'm still not clear on whether... Prabhupada: Why you are not clear? Just making clear. Reporter: It is your opinion that... Perhaps you can help me, that you cannot go to the planet unless you... Prabhupada: You take some, take some... Take this. Reporter: Oh, thanks. ...go to a, have a suitable body, and his belief that the spacesuit is not a suitable body or a substitute or whatever. It is not the same thing, and yet if this is accomplished it seems to be that he's also saying that there's no contradiction to his statement. Prabhupada: Because I say if you get a suitable body. So if you think that this is suitable body then you can enter. There is no contradiction. But I think it is not suitable body. But in all cases if you get suitable body you can enter there. Hayagriva: It's just the means. He said it's not impossible to go there, but the means that they're using now are not very good means to go there. Prabhupada: Yes. Hayagriva: He has some doubts about the means they're using to go there. He doesn't think that the... Reporter: I think what... I think we have to carry it further enough so that we can tell whether, for one thing whether I have a story or not. If it's felt if you have doubts that it can be done, that's one thing. But if you have great confidence that it can never be done except by changing one's body... Prabhupada: No, I don't say that. I say that in order to enter into the... Just try to understand me clearly. In order to enter the moon planet you have got to prepare yourself for a suitable body. Is that clear? If you, by some way or other, you make that suitable body you can enter. But the present body which you have manufactured, the spacesuit, is not suitable. Reporter: Okay, then when I try to carry it further, if they use the present body and do, are successful... Prabhupada: That they could not do till now. That is future contemplation. Because even going up to sixty miles off they could not. Therefore this is not suitable. Now you say also, just like they didn't have the ticket. The further arrangement is still waiting. That means this is not suitable. This is... We just try to convince you. Reporter: Do you think that any improvements in the spacesuit... Prabhupada: That is future hope. Not the present suit. I say the present suit is not suitable. Reporter: What about a future suit? Prabhupada: Future, if you improve, that my statement is that if you can make your body suitable you can enter. So far the present suit is concerned, it is not good. Reporter: Now I think that if the trip is made and it is successful... Prabhupada: If, if... Reporter: ...that there would be no contradiction there and in the case of say no interference from any moon beings, that I can foresee that there would be no contradiction there if it is achieved. Prabhupada: No. That means simply by your suit, if you... Just like if I got a nice suit and enter your port, New York or any port, but if the immigration department does not allow me, what can I do? Is that suit sufficient? You cannot enforce there. There are intelligent persons there. Suppose if I come, a very nice costly dress, in your port and if your immigration department does not allow, what can you do? There are intelligent persons there. How do we expect that simply by you have got suit, therefore you'll be able to, allowed to enter there? That is not sufficient qualification. Reporter: I'm just trying to pin you down to a very exact statement if I can as to whether or not if they found the suitable spacesuit and did land, whether they would be interfered with. Prabhupada: Interfered... Interfered... Now you try to understand. You come from Europe or from India in a very nice gentlemanly suit. Does it mean that immigration department will allow you to enter the country? That means even if you have got suitable suit they may be opposed if you haven't got, I mean to say, proper qualities and other bona fides. Because to live in the moon planet there are different qualities and bona fides. So not only you have got to make a proper suitable dress but you have to qualify yourself for getting visa of entrance into moon planet. Reporter: What I'm saying is that if astronauts were able to land and return to the earth successfully... Prabhupada: What is that successful? Reporter: I would predict that you would not feel that there was... Would you then interpret it that they were able to get the visa or to... Prabhupada: No, if you go and land there and come back, that may be a pleasant thing for you, but we don't think it is a very nice thing. If I go in New York border and see and come back and I am not allowed to enter, why should I take so much trouble? It is useless trouble. Hayagriva: He says if you can't go there and live there, what's the point in going there? Prabhupada: Just the Russians advertised that "We're going to distribute land." That is a feasible understanding. But if you simply go and touch and come back, is that success? Why should you take so much trouble simply for touching the moon planet? Reporter: Well, I mean, anyone can make that... There are many people who feel just that way although they may have no acquaintance with Vedic literature either and might feel the same way. Why go? Prabhupada: No, it is a common sense affair that if somebody takes the trouble of doing so many things for the last ten or twenty years and go there and touch the moon planet, come back, it is successful. So it may be complacence for him, but I don't think it is success. Why should I take so much trouble to touch the moon planet, come back? (chuckling) I have no useless time for that thing. Reporter: Well, I think that what you're saying, that it is also not strictly impossible for someone to go there and be able to come back, that many conditions would have to change for them to do that, but you wouldn't rule out as impossible. Is that right? Prabhupada: No. Actually, if anyone goes there, he'll not like to come back. Reporter: If anyone goes there... Prabhupada: He'll not like to come back. Otherwise, he will give false information, that "I went there and touched it and came back." Just like this is the information that they were sixty miles off. Reporter: Why wouldn't he like to come back? Prabhupada: Why you are trying to go there? First of all, let me know. Reporter: For science, for getting some samples of the moon's surface for one thing. Prabhupada: Do you mean to say simply by knowing the moon planet your scientific research is complete? There are so many millions of other planets of different nature. Is it possible to study all these? Reporter: No. Prabhupada: Then? Why you are taking so much trouble to study the moon planet? What is your idea? Reporter: I think it's to do what I said and also the fact that it's there, and it's reachable and why not go there? You know. Why climb a mountain? Prabhupada: You can go there, but if you take the trouble of going there, why not live there? Because the place is more comfortable than this place. Reporter: Why leave there because the place is more comfortable than this place? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. The duration of life is more, the standard of living is fine, everything is, knowledge advanced. Hayagriva: He's saying, if you're going to take the trouble to go to the planet, why not go to the planet that you can live in with your present body, and why go someplace where you have to make so many accommodations with spacesuits because the atmosphere is not conducive to our... Reporter: But we're not going there with a mind that they themselves won't live there. Hayagriva: Then he says it's useless to go there. Reporter: But obviously, they're going to go there anyway, and, so that's why I'm trying to think to see whether there are any... Prabhupada: Now, do you think that after so much trouble, so much labor, if you go there and simply come back and be complacent that, "Oh, I went there," is that very great achievement? If you can live there, you can utilize that place, then it is all right. Just like so many Europeans, they came to America and not simply to see and go back. Why they settled here? That is successful. Columbus invented this island and people came and they utilized it. Otherwise, if simply coming and going, why take so much trouble? Reporter: Well, that's a point. Prabhupada: But our Krsna consciousness movement has nothing to do with this moon planet going. Reporter: No, I realize that. Only in the sense that I could see some... From the way Dan Donnelley... Prabhupada: But we have got some information in the literatures dealing with Krsna consciousness. Reporter: For instance, the jehovah's Witnesses have all but predicted that Armageddon or the end of the world will come in 1975, and obviously, if nothing happens in 1975 or shortly thereafter, their sect will suffer in some relation because they have said this and if it doesn't happen... Prabhupada: But they said so many things. Reporter: Right. Prabhupada: But does...? As the Russian said that in 1965 we are going to... Reporter: So that when Dan Donnelley told me that... Prabhupada: So we never believed in such statement. We never believed. Reporter: Right. What I mean is that when Dan Donnelley told me that in some of your lectures you had said that it would be impossible for man to land on the moon and that they would be opposed by beings on the moon, those sounded like very definite statements that if those things did not happen, then there would be a similar potential for a crisis within the Krsna movement of people hearing one thing said and it doesn't happen in the future. Then if those things are said that definitely, then there's always a danger that... Prabhupada: No. Danger... When the scientists said that 1965 they would go. Did not happen. What danger has happened? Reporter: The danger to the faith of those who felt, say, in jehovah's Witnesses, those who believed that the jehovah's Witness knew and nothing happens. They say, "Well..." Prabhupada: But they're still believing. First of all, they say that 1965 they're going to the moon planet. That has not happened. Now you say 1975. So they are still believing. So a class of men will always be cheated like that. A class of men. So there will be no danger of cheating such persons. Hayagriva: I don't think Swami Bhaktivedanta's students would be swayed one way or the other because their faith is in Krsna and in the spiritual master and it wouldn't be swayed by man going to the moon or not going to the moon. These are very incidental. Reporter: No, but ...only if say a spiritual master of a faith made very definite statements about what man could or could not achieve, if a spiritual master were to say man cannot achieve this-period. And then man went ahead and achieved it, there would be a crisis. Prabhupada: The spiritual master does not say such nonsense things. Man can achieve in a suitable body. Why don't you say that? But that suitable body is not... Reporter: Yeah, well that's... When I talk to you, I find that the way you say it, if after the events are achieved, there could be explanations for it and there would be no crisis in faith. Hayagriva: He never came out and said that it's absolutely impossible. Reporter: Right. Okay. Well thank you very much. I appreciate your tolerance of all my questions and everything. Prabhupada: You take this orange. Hayagriva: Do you want to take this, read these booklets? This one's just a running history of the Society and this is the magazine. So if you'd like, you can take it. Reporter: Okay. Fine. Prabhupada: Our Krsna... You should kindly note it that our Krsna consciousness movement has nothing to do with this moon planet. But we are not aiming to go to the moon planet. Reporter: I realize that. Yes. Your name was Howard...? Hayagriva: Wheeler. Reporter: Wheeler? Thank you very much. Okay. Thank you. Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (end) >>> Ref. VedaBase => Interview with LA Times Reporter About Moon Trip -- December 26, 1968, Los Angeles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 moon ---------------------- sun earth see? the moon is HIGHER then the sun but also CLOSER to earth than the sun. SP was not a supreme authority on Vedic cosmology. he was simply reading Bhagavatam descriptions and taking them in his own way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 Yes but he also says that the sun is 93,000,000 miles away and the moon distance should be added to that. Also how do you account for the moon orbiting the Earth? I don't believe in being too ridged in these areas. Just like I can't accept that the moon is self illuminating. But I don't mind these things as I don't look to the Bhagavatam for cosmology. Actually I don't look anywhere except at the night sky. I can't follow any of it very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 I know what you are saying... (sigh) I hate to say this (out of deep respect for SP), but it appears that there is some confusion in the translation and subsequent purports, where the terms "height" and "distance" are used interchangeably - that is most likely an error, because these two terms are not at all identical. just like the "anti-matter" controversy from "Easy Journey to Other Planets" - SP used the discovery of antimaterial particle to prove the existence of spirit soul... well, by most accounts this anti-matter is not spirit, but a peculiar form of material energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 The Moon is 220,000 to about 252,000 miles from Earth. How it is measured? Here is one example: "Bouncing Lasers Off the Moon Their primary method will be something called "laser ranging," and it wouldn't be possible without the foresight of people like Kenneth Nordtvedt. In the 1960s, Nordtvedt, a physicist at Montana State University, came up with an intriguing idea. He reasoned that a series of reflectors on the surface of the moon could be helpful in determining the exact distance between the moon and the Earth. Light from a laser fired from the Earth could hit a reflector and bounce back. The time it took for the light to travel from Earth to the reflector and back would reveal the exact distance, or at least within a few inches, Nordtvedt argued. That would reveal much about the lunar orbit, and that data could in turn be used to test some of the tantalizing ideas in Einstein's theories. His idea was convincing enough that NASA sent three arrays of 100 to 300 prisms, called retroreflectors, to the moon during the Apollo program. The prisms reflect light back to its point of origin, and each array is about the size of a suitcase. Two other arrays were delivered to the moon by Soviet unmanned missions. The retroreflectors allowed scientists to pin down the distance to the moon to within about 10 inches by the early 1970s, and that number was reduced to less than an inch within a decade. More ‘Bullets’ for More Precision But that isn't good enough to carry out the kind of research that Murphy and his colleagues want to do. By using a laser system mounted on a 3.5-meter telescope at Apache Point, N.M., and equipped with a sophisticated array of detectors that can capture and isolate every photon of light that bounces back from the moon, Murphy hopes to get the number down well below a millimeter. The laser will blast a 1-billion-watt "bullet" of light at the moon 20 times every second. But the Earth's atmosphere will distort the beam once it leaves the telescope, so by the time it gets to the moon the beam will cover an area more than a mile wide. Murphy is hoping that at least one out of every 30 million photons hits a reflector and bounces back toward Earth. That would send about a billion photons back from each bullet. But by the time the reflected laser beam reaches Earth, it will have spread out to nearly 10 miles in diameter, so probably only about one out of 30 million reflected photons will actually be captured by the detectors. That data will be fed into a powerful computer, but all it will tell is the distance between the telescope and the reflector. Factoring in Swelling Earth, Atmospheres "The difficulty is in converting that into a useful number," Murphy says. What the scientists want to know is the distance between the center of the Earth and the center of the moon, and there are just a whole bunch of things that make that a difficult conversion. "The Earth swells about a foot every day, so you have to know where you are in that tidal cycle," Murphy says. "You have to know how much atmospheric delay is presented because light travels a little bit slower though air, so you better know how much atmosphere you're going through. When you have a high pressure system [in the atmosphere], the local crust is pushed down by the weight of the air." We're talking feet in some of these cases, and the scientists are thinking millimeters. But if they've done everything right, Murphy expects to get the measurement down to below a millimeter within the first minute of observation. Then he can get down to the real science. Challenging Einstein The foundation of Einstein's theory of General Relativity is the equivalence principal, which postulates "all types of mass, regardless of composition, will accelerate or fall at the same rate in a gravitational field," Murphy says. The measurements he hopes to collect should tell if the moon and the Earth fall toward the sun at the same rate, as Einstein predicted. If there's a difference in the rate between the two bodies, then something is really wrong with the equivalence principal. Beyond that, the laser ranging system will work sort of like a telescope, detecting virtually every object in the solar system on the basis of its effect on the orbit of the moon. "Even asteroids exert enough force on the moon that they should be detectable at the millimeter level," Murphy says. And eventually, if Murphy can keep the program running for four or five years, he might be able to determine if gravity weakens as the universe expands, a proposition that has tantalized some scientists for many years. So as a young man he stands on an interesting threshold. His experiment could turn up all sorts of surprises. "That's the exciting thing," he says. "Any time you probe to a new level of precision like this, you never know what monsters are going to rear their heads. Sometimes, monsters are a terrible thing that you don't want to deal with, and sometimes they are very interesting." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 is indeed 93,000,000 miles just as the spiritual knowledge in Bhagavatam needs to be properly understood from a spiritual scientist, the material knowledge in that scripture needs to be properly understood as well - from a person of great material understanding. it is not at all simple... even the demigods are sometimes baffled by the workings of the Universe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 Afterall it is Krsna bewildering energy. It is a fact these scientists have a gigantic intelligence working. But is it working for or against them? Until they link it all up with Krsna then it is for naught. However a pee brain like myself has no business disrespecting their intelligence because Krsna is the intelligence of the intelligent. Give credit where credit is due. Still I am not interested in their path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 http://www.sciencereligionbooks.com/sacreduniverse/overview.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Quote: "But because you have asked me, I am your spiritual master, I must try to answer to your satisfaction. Yes, sometimes in Vedas such things like the asura's decapitated head chasing after Candraloka is explained allegorically. Just like now we are explaining in 4th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the story of King .; just like the living entity is living within this body, and the body is described there as city with nine gates, the intelligence as the Queen. So there are sometimes allegorical explanations. There are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. But where is the guarantee that modern science is also correct? These things are not very important; we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. . . . So we are concerned with Krsna consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad- Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad Bhagavatam." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Quote: Dhruvaloka, the polestar, is 3,800,000 yojanas above the sun. Above Dhruvaloka by 10,000,000 yojanas is Maharloka, above Maharloka by 20,000,000 yojanas is Janaloka, above Janaloka by 80,000,000 yojanas is Tapoloka, and above Tapoloka by 120,000,000 yojanas is Satyaloka. Thus the distance from the sun to Satyaloka is 233,800,000 yojanas, or 1,870,400,000 miles. The Vaikuntha planets begin 26,200,000 yojanas (209,600,000 miles) above Satyaloka. Thus the Visnu Purana describes that the covering of the universe is 260,000,000 yojanas (2,080,000,000 miles) away from the sun. (SB 5.23.9) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 http://www.chakra.org/discussions/ODiscNov11_04.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 moon ---------------------- sun earth see? the moon is HIGHER then the sun but also CLOSER to earth than the sun. moon ---------------------- sun earth What about some time later when the situation changes as in the following diagram?:- moon earth ______________________sun Avinash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 yes it is all relative. I posted that diagram only to show the point of important differences between terms: "height" and "distance" that should not be confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 By Susheel Gopalan Posted December 10, 2002 All glories to Srila Prabhupada! Contents · Background · Introduction · Science · The Scientific Method · Srila Prabhupada’s Premise · Bhagavad-Gita Introduced · Constituents of the Body · Lord Caitanya Introduced · Srila Prabhupada’s Message · Regulative Principles · The dimension of time · Chanting the holy names · Comparative Religion · Conclusion Disclaimer The opinions expressed in this article are merely the product of a preliminary study into the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. They are presented in the hope that it will serve as a discussion paper in reconciling the tenets of faith with the principles of other knowledge-gathering faculties such as science and philosophy. Background If one were so inclined as to slot the teachings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada into the vast spectrum of the philosophies of the world, His rightful place would be in revealing the prerequisite for the philosophical comprehension of the timeless wisdoms of all scriptures. This prerequisite, He insists, is the devotional service (Bhakti Yoga) to the peerless Supreme Personality of Godhead. He corroborates this revelation by reference to the philosophies of the Bhagavad-Gita (a timeless philosophical classic that literally translates to "The Song of God"), and commentaries on it by Lord Caitanya Mahaprabu (an incarnation of Krishna who appeared as a saintly philosopher of the 16th century). History will forever recognize Srila Prabhupada’s substantial contribution to our eternal quest for spiritual enlightenment. Introduction "Krishna consciousness is not a bluff. It is a real science, real authority. One simply has to understand it. That is all." These were the words of one of the most authoritative sources on the Vedas in recent history. The year 1896 marks his appearance on this planet as Abhay Charan De. In recognition of his profound insight into scriptural doctrine, he was later given the title Bhaktivedanta Swami. The many disciples around the world who took shelter in his knowledge refer to him in reverence as Srila Prabhupada. The seriousness and eloquence with which Srila Prabhupada convinced so many individuals of the merits of the very profound and deep subject of God consciousness or Krishna consciousness is indeed thought provoking. He equated ignorance of the spiritual dimension in man to suicide. Such is the grave importance he attributed to spiritual knowledge. He spoke of our material existence and material priorities as misguided. He insisted that the key to distinguishing knowledge from nescience was to understand the true source of incentives for our thoughts and actions. He tirelessly spoke of what he termed the true purpose of human life. He cited example after example of the misfortunes associated with being slaves to the senses. He declared God consciousness as the epitome of all scientific and philosophical pursuits. Srila Prabhupada seems to have consciously promoted his movement as more scientific than religious. To some degree he alienates himself from existing religious practice and promotes Krishna consciousness as a process available to members of all faiths. Perhaps one reason for this was his dissatisfaction with the quality of existing practice, but a more important reason was that he genuinely believed that the process of Krishna consciousness was one designed to attain the pinnacle of spiritual growth and enlightenment. One might expect that a movement that argues in favor of the merits of science would border on natural religion. Not so. In fact Srila Prabhupada vehemently adheres to revealed religious doctrine or shastra, but what makes it scientific is that he argues that practical experiences are not opposed to shastra, but rather reinforce shastra. On the purpose of human life, Srila Prabhupada has an unequivocal answer. He declares the human being as an eternal servant of the Supreme personality of Godhead. He considers this the eternal constitutional position of the true self. Every other position attributed to an individual, he argues, is merely a temporary state designed to reveal this eternal constitutional position. He says that anyone who claims to be following Vedic shastras must declare the eternal (sanatana) occupation (dharma) of an individual to be one of servitude to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He adds that the only other bona fide occupation prescribed in the shastra is the varnashrama dharma. This relates to the identification of the four classes of natural aptitude available in all societies or varnas (laborers, merchants, military and priests), not to be confused with the birth caste system, and the four stages in human life or ashramas (student, householder, retired and renounced). He declares the varnashrama dharma as a method of purifying the conditioned tendencies and thereby elevating oneself to the point of recognizing one’s sanatana dharma (true eternal occupation). Over the years, the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (BBT), the Back To Godhead magazine, the Bhativedanta Institute, and the many devoted disciples who have started and maintained places of worship all around this globe have done their part in promoting this intellectual philosophy of Krishna consciousness to people from all backgrounds. My desire in this article is to discuss and attempt to reconcile the essence of Srila Prabhupada’s arguments to support the scientific basis for God consciousness with the methods and processes accepted by the contemporary scientific community. It is my belief that those who are convinced of the merits of science and the scientific method will find the arguments presented by Srila Prabhupada to be fairly compelling. In the relatively recent history of science, there appears to be an underlying yet unstated assumption that religious doctrine and science are mutually exclusive with little hope for reconciliation. It is my hope that this article will, in some small measure, inspire the reader to attempt to bridge the gap between science and faith. In my concluding remarks I share a more general set of observations, not limited to modern science, that I hope adds further weight to the insights offered by scripture. Science While defining and understanding nomenclature is always a productive first step in any study, it also leaves a lot of room for pedantic and esoteric arguments that often detract from the original intent of the study. For the purpose of this article, however, let me attempt to stay clear of controversies by stating definitions that seem to be generally acceptable in most academic circles. The word "science" is originally derived from the Latin word "scientia," meaning, "having knowledge," as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding. Coincidentally, the word "Veda" shares a similar Sanskrit root. In its contemporary definition, science would constitute knowledge that is based on empirical evidence or logical derivation. It is certainly opposed to knowledge based on dogmatic beliefs. In essence, to be scientific would involve the application of reason on empirical data. A study of Western philosophy would date the birth of contemporary science at about 700-600 B.C. This period portrays a trend to abandon the powers of authority and religious doctrine in favor of the merits of reason. One speculative rationale would have been the desire to correct misrepresentation and the abuse of power. Greece and her philosophers made a significant mark in the history of this period. Of the many philosophers, one of the early contributors to geometry was Pythagoras. In addition to deriving the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter, Pythagoras is also credited, in some quarters, as having invented the concept of squares of numbers. However, the most celebrated of classical philosophers were not those who explored mathematics or cosmology, but those who expounded on moral and ethical issues. Socrates and Plato are often referred to as the Christians before Christ, for having concluded, based on reason and reason alone, that there existed two parallel worlds — one the imperfect in which we find ourselves and the other, the utopian. Aristotle, one of Plato’s students, once again deviates from the moral philosophies back to the natural sciences. His interest, however, was not in mathematics or physics but in the observation of life and associated change. Perhaps a product of his background in the moral philosophies and his interest in the natural sciences culminates in his dissertation on rhetoric. To this day, science leverages his contributions to that aspect of rhetoric called "logos" or logic. One consequence of the move from the moral philosophies to the natural sciences appears to be the increased emphasis on observation by the senses (visual being the most common). This seems to come at the expense of observations from within (mind or consciousness). The argument that is often presented to support this shift is one related to subjectivity versus objectivity. The feelings experienced by an individual cannot be reproduced at will by another individual. Hence it is argued to be too subjective to warrant attention from the objective sciences. In concluding this brief discussion on science and its roots, it is worth restating that the original intent of science relates to knowledge-gathering based on reason. We are in search of the cause of our existence and our environment. We want to know where we come from and where we go from here. We recognize our mortal nature. Hence we recognize the limited time available for this study. Based on these constraints, it is up to us to determine if we should restrict the boundaries of our search by self-imposed arguments of subjectivity and objectivity. Some of the most celebrated minds in the history of science have, in fact, alluded to the limitations of science. Max Planck (Nobel prize winner for physics in 1918) once said: "Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of Nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are part of the mystery that we are trying to solve." The Scientific Method The scientific method is a process used to reconcile observation in a particular field of study with an existing or discernable "rule" that applies to that field of study. These rules are primarily justified by observational evidence. They can also be arrived at, by extrapolating other rules, through the application of logic. In a field of research where there are no existing rules, the scientific method usually involves the observation of a phenomenon followed by the postulating of a hypothesis (potentially a future rule) to explain the observation. The hypothesis is then used to explain other existing phenomena in that particular field of study, as well as predicting future observations. Finally, if the hypothesis cannot be disputed by any known phenomenon, it is conferred the status of a rule, law, or theory. Once a rule is established in a particular field of study, all new observations in that field are first explained using the existing rule. If such an explanation fails to satisfy all the observational characteristics, the existing rule is once again challenged as being inconclusive. To draw a parallel with Aristotle’s rhetoric, and logic in particular, all logical arguments must start with an irrefutable fact or "premise." The first step in any logical analysis is to validate the premise that is presented. In one sense the premise corresponds to the "rule" defined by the scientific method. It is the starting point for all subsequent conclusions. Srila Prabhupada’s Premise Srila Prabhupada plays the role of an instructor who teaches by example (acharya), and who explains profound, eternal, and often abstract truths by relating to contemporary material concepts that are easy to analyze and comprehend. If I were to ever be assigned the difficult task of identifying the singular, most important, attribute that allows Srila Prabhupada to excel beyond imagination in his role as an instructor, it would have to be his ways with analogy. The singular message of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, is the declaration of an eternal relationship of love between a living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The premise that he builds upon in all his presentations involves distinguishing the body of a living entity from its life-giving force, the eternal soul. He justifies this premise by arguing that all the physical elements relating to the body are still available at the instant of death, although they may deteriorate quickly soon after. (This observation is not disputable based on my limited understanding of the biological sciences. If there is scientific data to refute this claim, it would certainly make for constructive debate.) His hypothesis then follows that, at the instant of death, something that is not visible to the naked eye disappears. He calls this energy-giving substance the eternal Soul, without which the physical elements that constitute the living body are of no avail. He then reconciles this consistent and observable phenomenon with statements from the scripture that explicitly declare the existence of the eternal soul. Thus he argues that the explicit declarations in the scripture are not and need not be accepted as dogmatic beliefs that will not withstand inquiry from the scientific mind. He, in fact, invites such inquiry to reinforce the validity and credibility of scriptural injunctions. It is my personal assessment that in situations where there appears to be contradictions, or at least no direct correlation, between empirical evidence and scriptural doctrine, Srila Prabhupada would warn us against dismissing scriptural statements on the basis of insufficient evidence. One inference would be the argument that our knowledge and exposure to the workings of the universe are far too limited to make the necessary judgment calls. On the surface this appears like a convenient ploy to dodge the rules of science. On the other hand, one may logically argue that if some aspects of scripture can be reconciled with current empirical evidence, then perhaps there is room for increased reconciliation as our empirical and scriptural understandings broadens. For as long as science is unable to conclusively uncover the mysteries of our existence and our environment, it only seems reasonable and fair that we remain open to all avenues of knowledge. Such openness is, in fact, a statement of the scientific method. Bhagavad-Gita Introduced The Bhagavad-Gita is often the starting point and primary text in the study of Vedic scripture. It is a historical dialog between Krishna (the Supreme Personality of Godhead) and Arjuna (Krishna’s friend and devotee) that occurred approximately 5000 years ago. The scene is the battlefield of Kurukshetra where Arjuna is engaged in a war with his cousins, the Kurus, over the leadership of the kingdom. Krishna acts as Arjuna’s charioteer. Arjuna, a celebrated warrior and one of the finest pupils of his teacher, Drona, is, however, overcome with grief when faced with the reality of having to kill his own kinsmen, elders, and instructors who have taken sides with the Kurus. He questions the merits of the exercise even if he can win the entire kingdom in return. What subsequently happens between Krishna and Arjuna will be recorded by history as a source of unparalleled knowledge and wisdom presented as a literary masterpiece that is characterized by its boldness, directness, and simplicity in addressing deep, profound, and sometimes abstract eternal truths. Whatever your faith, your convictions, or your stance, to go through life without reading the eighteen chapters of the Bhagavad-Gita, at least once, would be to miss out on an unequalled piece of writing. Constituents of the Body The Bhagavad-Gita discusses the composition of the living body in a hierarchical manner. In its simplistic model, The Gita declares that "The working senses are superior to dull matter; mind is higher than the senses; intelligence is still higher than the mind; and he [the soul] is even higher than the intelligence." {BG:3-42} The Gita then goes on to recommend the source of strength to control the mind. "Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to the material senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence [Krishna consciousness] and thus — by spiritual strength — conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust." {BG:3-43} In the purport to this verse, Srila Prabhupada notes that "one may not give up work and prescribed duties all of a sudden; but by gradually developing Krishna consciousness, one can be situated in a transcendental position without being influenced by the material senses and the mind — by steady intelligence directed toward one’s pure identity." Here we have a process being prescribed for the elevation of the soul to a higher platform free from the influences of the senses and sense objects. The process is described as requiring constant and determined effort, but the execution of change is expected to be gradual. In mathematics, there is a concept of a "unit-step" function. This is a function that goes from state zero to state one in zero time. Practically, however, a change of state in zero time is a recipe for an unstable system. In fact, our understanding of the workings of matter is such that no change occurs in zero time. Often we want to reach a new state in minimal time, ideally in zero time. But the oscillations associated with sudden change makes such systems of no practical relevance. It appears that our empirical understanding of the nature around us shares something in common with the prescription for our nature within. This struggle of the mind is a central theme in the Gita. It is conquered only through the perfection in control, which in turn is only achieved through obedience to divine instructions. The strength and determination required to remain obedient is a gift given to those who express a desire for it through devotional service. There is an explicit inquiry related to this requirement for control, in which the mind is compared to the wind and hence impossible to control. The response to this inquiry is equally explicit. While acknowledging the process of controlling the mind as difficult, it is declared that it is not impossible. The mind is declared as having the potential to be the best of friends or the worst of enemies. So far there is the clear indication that the true self is transcendental to the senses, the mind and the intelligence. Consciousness is presented as a reflection of the soul and hence is part of the true self. So at the time of death, is the soul the only entity that moves on to the next body? If so, to what avail is all the training and strengthening provided to the mind in any given life? The answers to these questions take us to chapter 15 of the Gita. "The living entity in the material world carries his different conceptions of life from one body to another, as the air carries aromas. Thus he takes one kind of body and again quits it to take another." {BG:15-8} Srila Prabhupada explains: "Here the living entity is described as isvara, the controller of his own body. If he likes, he can change his body to a higher grade, and if he likes he can move to a lower class. Minute independence is there. The change his body undergoes depends upon him. At the time of death, the consciousness he has created will carry him on to the next type of body. If he has made his consciousness like that of a cat or dog, he is sure to change to a cat’s or dog’s body. And if he has fixed his consciousness on godly qualities, he will change into the form of a demigod. And if he is in Krishna consciousness, he will be transferred to Krishnaloka in the spiritual world and will associate with Krishna. It is a false claim that after the annihilation of this body everything is finished. The individual soul is transmigrating from one body to another, and his present body and present activities are the background of his next body. One gets a different body according to karma, and he has to quit this body in due course. It is stated here that the subtle body, which carries the conception of the next body, develops another body in the next life. This process of transmigrating from one body to another and struggling while in the body is called karsati, or struggle for existence." Based on this verse we know that the concept of free will exists to the extent that we are in control of our next body. We also know that the conceptions of life that we entertain, accompany us from one body to another. Hence the element of eternity captured by the soul includes our reflections and understandings of our being, our origins, and our environment. While this knowledge is in a constant state of development, it is not lost at the time of death. Lord Caitanya Introduced Lord Caitanya, also referred to as Mahaprabhu, appeared in Mayapur, India, on the 18th of February 1486 A.D. He accepted the renounced order of life (sannyasa) at the early age of 24 and promoted the philosophy that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is, inconceivably, simultaneously one with and different from His creation (acintya-bhedabheda-tattva). He promoted the chanting of the holy names of the Lord because the associated sound vibrations are in themselves an incarnation of the Lord. He argued that since the Lord is the absolute whole, there is no difference between His holy name and His transcendental form. In Srila Prabhupada’s preface to the Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, he states "Lord Caitanya is the ideal teacher of life’s prime necessitates. He is the most munificent bestower of love of Krishna. He is the complete reservoir of all mercies and good fortune. As confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-Gita, Mahabharata and the Upanisads, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna Himself, and He is worshipable by everyone in this age of disagreement." Srila Prabhupada and the lineage that he represents recognize Lord Chaitanya as an incarnation of God Himself. This is an important distinguishing feature that bears on the philosophy that Srila Prabhupada promotes. Among the nuances that differentiate the different lineages, the position accorded to Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is important and relevant in appreciating the thrust of Srila Prabhupada’s message. Srila Prabhupada’s Message Let us revisit Srila Prabhupada’s premise, which distinguishes the living body from its eternal soul and derive the central theme of his message. Srila Prabhupada argues that the soul is eternal and keeps migrating from one body to another, while the body, which serves as a transient covering for the soul in any particular manifestation, appears at the time of birth and vanishes at the time of death. The logical question that follows relates to the rules that govern the next destination of the soul and whether these rules will give some indication as to the original starting point in this sojourn of the soul. On the issue of rules governing the next destination of the soul, Srila Prabhupada is very clear — he insists that not only do they exist but they are very strictly followed with very few exceptions. As to the original starting point in the sojourn of the soul, the answer is less clear. In fact he claims the beginning of our present material existence cannot be traced. Instead, he questions the relevance of this information. In material existence, Srila Prabhupada elaborates that one is limited by the reactions of his past actions. Every individual in material existence has an innate nature. This nature dictates the traits of personality and other such signatures that characterize individuals into unique molds and consequently define their potentials. To deny this uniqueness is to deny human experience. To then make the leap and link that to human potential is to accept destiny. Srila Prabhupada argues that these traits are not mere random occurrences but the perfect application of a universal law of action and reaction (Karma). Srila Prabhupada however, does not dwell on the subject of destiny. Instead he concentrates on a more fundamental issue. He concludes that irrespective of the destiny that one entitles oneself to, material existence cannot offer eternal happiness. By its very definition, material existence is transient, and in every step of the way, there are far too many incentives to succumb to forces that are tied to unwelcome reactionary effects. Srila Prabhupada concentrates his energy on the means to escape the characteristic cycle of birth, death, old age, and disease associated with material existence. Srila Prabhupada clearly articulates those factors that tie us into this web of material existence. This knowledge is particularly relevant for one determined to come out of material existence. In his book titled The Science of Self-realization, Srila Prabhupada speaks of five chains that anchor us in mundane consciousness. Attachment to the material body at the expense of spiritual insight, attachment to kinsmen through relationships, attachment to land through birth and possessions, attachment to material science (science devoid of spiritual insight), and attachment to rituals without recognizing the true Personality of Godhead. The key word in all these anchors is "attachment." The Bhagavad-Gita compares this to a deeply rooted banyan tree, which is ever increasing its hold on the earth and whose real form cannot be perceived. No one can see where it ends, where it begins, or where its foundation is. The metaphorical recommendation given in the Gita and reiterated by Srila Prabhupada is to cut down this banyan tree with determination, using the weapon of detachment. All attachments are mere statements of illusion proclaimed by the mind. One can very practically conclude that we are not in control over the quality or time span of any form of attachment. So these declarations related to attachment should not disturb a mind that has contemplated the practical realities of human existence. So how do we find the strength to acquire this weapon of detachment? And what does detachment truly entail? This takes us back to the significant role played by the mind and the difficulty associated with controlling the mind. Though illusionary in academic analysis, the statements of the mind can feel very real and overwhelming to the participating individual. Srila Prabhupada acknowledges this fact and recommends a process to counteract these illusionary forces. This process is in accordance with the teachings of the Bhagavad-Gita. In text 48, chapter 2 of the Bhagavad-Gita, Krishna defines the term "yoga" as the sincere performance of duty without attachment to success or failure. This should not be taken as a license for a lack of passion or lethargy in the execution of duty, as indicated in BG:14-8 and BG:18-28. In the subsequent text (text 49), Krishna recommends devotional service as the way to keep abominable activities (activities tied to unwelcome reactions) far distant. Based on these two verses alone, one can conclude that to achieve perfection in the control of the mind, one may engage the mind in two activities — devotional service and the performance of Varnashrama-related duties (duties based on individual aptitude and material circumstance). Interestingly enough, it would be hard to come up with any more activities for the mind in the entire Bhagavad-Gita. Perhaps the single most important verse in the Bhagavad-Gita is text 63 of Chapter 18. "Thus I have explained to you knowledge still more confidential. Deliberate on this fully, and then do what you wish to do." Here Krishna reveals an aspect of His personality. He is not the boss who is continually nagging us about our misdeeds. Instead He explains the consequences of our actions clearly and then asks us to do as we please. This aspect of His nature clearly favors those who exercise intelligence over the foolish. A foolish individual requires constant policing. An intelligent individual picks up on the consequences long before it becomes a personal experience. Srila Prabhupada’s recommended processes to counteract the forces of illusion are rooted in knowledge derived from Vedic scripture. In particular he draws on the teachings of Lord Caitanya as a practical guide to the revelations in the Bhagavad-Gita. He argues that yoga and regulative principles (or the conscious control of the mind) are a necessary first step for souls who are deeply entangled in the inferior energies associated with sense gratification. However, for souls who have found their way out of the dense forest of illusion, he recommends that they no longer restrain their senses but rather engage them in devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Regulative Principles Regulative principles are aimed at continually minimizing the influence the senses hold over the mind. This reduction in influence is equivalent to an equally increased influence held by intelligence and consciousness over the mind. If we relate this back to the moral philosophies of Socrates and Plato, there is concurrence over the importance in exercising intelligence and consciousness (inner feelings of right and wrong) in making the decisions of the mind. There are four regulative principles recommended in one of the commentaries on the Vedic literature (Bhagavad-Purana-1.17.38) that Srila Prabhupada reiterates as a requirement in making further progress in the spiritual path. These principles are discussed below. 1) Intoxication in any form is forbidden. This should come as no surprise. We are dealing with a mind that seems to have trouble with control in the best of circumstances. And so any intoxicant will only aggravate the situation. 2) Meat eating is also forbidden. The act of slaughter for sense gratification is considered very violent and sinful. The diet prescribed is a vegetarian diet as opposed to a vegan diet. Dairy products such as milk and butter are an integral part of the diet. Eggs are however disallowed. All food preparations are first offered to the Lord and only the remnants of such offerings are consumed. This act of offering food to the Lord prior to consumption is a categorical requirement in Bhagavad-Gita. All foodstuffs consumed prior to offering to the Lord are declared in the Bhagavad-Gita as the consumption of sin. 3) Gambling is forbidden. One is expected to earn a living through legitimate means and not go in search of windfalls. 4) Illicit sexual activity is strictly forbidden. The only prescribed form of contraception is abstinence. Recently I read a commentary on the public outrage, which could have almost bordered on humor, to a similar declaration on sex by the Vatican. In all fields of human endeavor, there are often two categories of individuals. The first kind would always try to lower the bars of standard, while the second kind would always try to creep up to the bars of standard. To lower the bars of standard often presents instant gratification as an incentive. To creep up to the bars of standard can present difficult and sometimes seemingly insurmountable hurdles. But on matters that relate to scriptural injunctions, to lower the bars of standard would be to compromise on the essence of scripture. Certainly few would argue that as a logical option. The Dimension of Time The dimension of time and the associated ages are an integral part of Vedic knowledge. The material universe is said to have days and nights of equal length. Each day of the material universe (also known as "kalpa"), consists of a thousand cycles of four ages or "yugas." These yugas have varying lengths and characteristics. The first yuga, known as "Satya" yuga, lasts 1,728,000 years and is characterized by virtue, wisdom, and religion, with no trace of vice or ignorance. The second yuga, known as "Treta" yuga, lasts 1,296,000 years. In this yuga vice is introduced. The third yuga, known as "Dvapara" yuga, lasts 864,000 years and is characterized by a decline in virtue and religious practice. The fourth and last yuga is "Kali" yuga which lasts 432,000 years. It is characterized by quarrel, ignorance, irreligion, and vice. We are presently 5,000 years into this yuga in the 28th cycle of the present day of the material universe. The material universe has an estimated life of 100 years — each year made of 360 of such days and nights. While this may seem like eternity in human years, it is referred to in scripture to be as brief as a lightning flash. Dr. Richard Thompson, in his dissertation Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy, validates the claims of the Jyotisa Shastra (astrological shastra) that February 18th, 3102 B.C., marks the beginning of the current age of Kali Yuga. This is the day when all the seven planets used in the Jyotisa Shastra (including the Sun and the Moon and excluding Rahu and Ketu) are aligned in one straight line on one side of the earth. I have always thought of the research conducted by Dr. Thompson to reconcile the relevance of this date from both a Vedic and a scientific standpoint to be a model that we should all follow in all areas of empirical research. Chanting the Holy Names The age of Kali is known to offer a shorter life span with less conducive environments for spiritual growth. Hence, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu prescribes the easier process of engaging oneself in the energy of the Lord invested in His names as the recommend process for self-realization in this age. Of all Holy Names, the Mahamantra (Hare Krishna Hare Krishna - Krishna Krishna Hare Hare - Hare Rama Hare Rama - Rama Rama Hare Hare) is acknowledged by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabu, as the most effective. While there are no limitations on when, where, and how many times the Mahamantra may be chanted, Srila Prabhupada recommends that at a minimum we commit to chanting the Mahamantra 16 rounds on the 108-bead counting chain, also known as the japa mala. This translates to 1,728 times every day. He also details the mood of humility required to derive the full benefits of chanting the Holy Name. He compares this mood to one of a child crying for a mother’s attention. Comparative Religion The challenge of promoting the ancient Vedic tradition in a modern Christian society raises questions on the differences in faith and practice. Any study into Srila Prabhupada’s early days in the West would demonstrate the intensity of this culture shock. To its credit, the Western society had, over the generations, developed an openness to accept and entertain concepts and traditions that were radically different from the accepted norms. This demeanor was instrumental to Srila Prabhupada’s success in establishing an alternative lifestyle. Srila Prabhupada was never opposed to other faiths. What he was opposed to was the lack of sincerity and honesty in the pursuit of the spiritual dimension in mankind. He argued that the yardstick used to measure the merits of a religion was based on how much love it inspired in an individual for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. On the Christian faith, Srila Prabhupada was very accepting of the rules prescribed in the commandments, and the teachings of Christ, but he disagreed with some of the commonly accepted interpretations. For example, he disputed vehemently that the commandment not to kill could be interpreted to limit its scope to humans alone. To have dominion over the animals was not a license to kill them to satisfy the urges of the senses, he argued. A more controversial disagreement surrounds the issue of the Trinity. Srila Prabhupada accepted Christ as a Son of God, but not as God Himself. Conclusion As we humans sail through life on this planet, some of us will be consumed by the merits and demerits of our social and political systems. A few others will instead contemplate on the deeper subject that relates to the very source of our existence. Scripture, science, metaphysics, and mystical revelations will all serve as tools we use in these pursuits. Whichever path you choose, there is a good chance that the motivations for your pursuits are in fact a statement of dissatisfaction with our norms, our environment, and our times, although a few might argue that it is mere curiosity. My guess is that those who sincerely pursue bettering our social and political systems will quickly conclude that we have a history of experimenting with different systems. What we celebrate today as the best that man has come up with, we will dump tomorrow into the "ash heap of history." At the core, socia, and political systems are effectively management systems. On management, a friend once shared a rather unique observation that if a group of people require to be managed, then they are probably not worth managing. The underlying moral being that effective management cannot be legislated. It has to come from within. A better option would be to pursue a process that instills the virtues of self-governance and accountability in each individual being. One of the earliest Western philosophers to proclaim its merits was Socrates. Socrates argued that the way we conduct our lives was more important than finding the equations that described the earth’s position among the stars. His conclusions were to be later shared by Christ. However, as we know today, Christ had a different source of information to arrive at the same conclusion. This is one example of how the conclusions arrived through the process of reason agree with the principles of scripture. Our social and political systems revolve around economic growth and development. The industrial age promised an abundance of supply. And deliver they did, but only to a few. Three hundred years later, the scientific and engineering communities are struggling with issues of sustainability, global warming, and pollution. It strikes me that the industrial age has taught us to exploit the resources of nature at an unprecedented rate. Now we have become accustomed to overindulgence and waste. We have become conditioned to our exploits. We can no longer do without them. At the same time, we are not too pleased with the methods and processes in place to pay for these elaborate services that have suddenly become necessities. I feel strongly that these are all consequences of unguided and random experimentation with social and political systems, without regard for the most fundamental tenet of simplicity recommended in scripture. Here again we see how practical realities reinforce the merits of scriptural injunctions. The conclusions that we arrive at based on reason and experience are not always diametrically opposed to scripture. In the case of some of the most celebrated minds in philosophy, their conclusions appear to concur with scripture. If we are sincere in our quest for knowledge, then there is ample evidence to suggest the merits of scriptural doctrine. Scriptural knowledge relies on our faith in a superior and perfect Creator. Empirical knowledge relies on data acquired by our inferior senses and analyzed by our not-so-superior mind. Philosophical knowledge relies on our ability to reason using the rules of logic that have been shown to be quite capable of arriving at false conclusions. I am not suggesting that we abandon empirical and philosophical pursuits. They have a place in our quest for knowledge, but let us always endeavor to reconcile knowledge derived from these sources with knowledge available in scripture. Let us think twice before acting on knowledge derived purely from empirical and philosophical sources, especially if they directly contradict scriptural knowledge, lest we pay too high a price when we discover our mistakes. Some of us, though sincere in our quest of true knowledge, have been disillusioned by the propensity for misinterpretation and, in extreme cases, alteration of scripture by those entrusted with the responsibility of promoting scriptural knowledge. History validates these concerns. The onus of preserving and protecting scripture falls on all living beings. It is our most valuable inheritance. And even if we find no use for it in our own lives, we have a responsibility to pass it, unchanged, to future generations. To my knowledge, Srila Prabhupada has never expressed concern over the alteration of Vedic scripture. He backs this claim by the fact that the substance of the texts that he has authorized remains the same in many different geographical locations with different lineages. But he has repeatedly alerted us to misinterpretation. In conclusion, let me salute the efforts of the Bhaktivedanta institute for their attempts at reconciling modern science with the teachings of the Vedas. In particular I would like to express my sincere gratitude for the works of Dr. Richard Thompson. His intellectual capacity combined with his sincere passion for finding eternal truths without exercising bias in judgment, continually driven by the logical analysis of available data, adds tremendous credibility to the process, and remains a constant source of inspiration. Susheel Gopalan June 2001. version 1.1 dipika.org December 10, 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinash Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 According to what you are saying, sometimes Moon is higher and sometimes Sun is higher. Then, why does Bhagavatam say that Moon is higher when this statement is not always true? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted June 23, 2005 Report Share Posted June 23, 2005 as I said earlier, the descriptions of the Bhagavatam refer to a conceptual model of the universe showing proportional relationship between the planes of existence, not planets as they appear in our time-space continuum. also, terms "higher" or "lower" refer to the position in relation to the Garbhodaka Ocean, and not Earth as a planet. Remember: Pole Star (Dhruvaloka) is the "Up" direction with it's opposite being the Garbhodaka ocean. Sun, Moon and Earth (as part of the Jambudvipa) rotate in the space between these two. I think that what we see in our world as Sun and Moon are actually only small fragments of the Surya and Chandra planes of existence, just as Earth is only a small part of the Bhu-mandala plane of existence, with the rest of these planes of existence being beyond our sensory perception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted July 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 Posted on Chakra.org July 10, 2005 In the article entitled 'A priori knowledge defies reason', Srutakirti Das wrote: "Srila Prabhupada always accepted what he read in the sastra as the Absolute Truth." Srila Prabhupada wrote in a letter to Krsna das (Nov. 7, 1972): These things are not very important; we may not waste our time with these insignificant questions. There are sometimes allegorical explanations [in the Bhagavatam]. So there are many things which do not corroborate with the so-called modern science, because they are explained in that way. . . . So we are concerned with Krsna consciousness, and even though there is some difference of opinion between modern science and allegorical explanation in the Bhagavata, we have to take the essence of Srimad-Bhagavatam and utilize it for our higher benefit, without bothering about the correctness of the modern science or the allegorical explanation sometimes made in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Also in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur's Krsna Samhita it states that the Bhagavata cosmology is allegorical. Is there really an actual ocean of yogurt, an ocean of milk, of sugar cane juice, of wine, a giant mountain at the center of the earth reaching up to heaven, a subterranean world beneath us etc? And is it a sign of insincerity and arrogance to not accept these things as literally factual? Sometimes the sastra tells us that Vaikuntha is so many billions of miles above the earth. This is from the Bhagavatam: (1 yojan = 8 miles = 12.8 km) Dhruvaloka, the polestar, is 3,800,000 yojanas above the sun. Above Dhruvaloka by 10,000,000 yojanas is Maharloka, above Maharloka by 20,000,000 yojanas is Janaloka, above Janaloka by 80,000,000 yojanas is Tapoloka, and above Tapoloka by 120,000,000 yojanas is Satyaloka. Thus the distance from the sun to Satyaloka is 233,800,000 yojanas, or 1,870,400,000 miles. The Vaikuntha planets begin 26,200,000 yojanas (209,600,000 miles) above Satyaloka. Thus the Visnu Purana describes that the covering of the universe is 260,000,000 yojanas (2,080,000,000 miles) away from the sun. (SB 5.23.9) Every bit of that is wrong, totally wrong in fact. What is the first problem? Well the first and most obvious problem is that we live on a sphere and the sun is a sphere as well, so which way is up ? All those planets are described as above the sun. Second problem is that Pluto on average is over 3.5 billion miles away from the Sun. Our Milky Way is 5,865,696,000,000 X 90,000 miles wide. And that's just one of hundreds of billions to trillions of Galaxies. So first off if we are going to accept the Vedic descriptions of the material and spiritual worlds LITERALLY, we may notice that they cannot possibly be accurate. If they are in fact truthful, then they have to be allegorical. Unless we want to accept that Vaikuntha is somewhere in our own solar system, some 2 billion miles away from earth, closer to us then Pluto. So what we have here is Srila Prabhupada someties insisting on the primacy of the vedic cosmological teachings and at other times he contradicts that idea and agrees with Bhaktivinoda Thakura. As for the contentions by some people that it is vital to accept the literal descriptions of the moon being 1,600,000 miles above the sun; that can only lead to ridicule. There is no "above" the Sun because it is a sphere. While "scientists" are no doubt in error in many of their theories, simple tasks like determining the size and distance of the planets and moons in our solar system is easily done. If we insist that Vaikuntha begins somewhere in our own solar system and other provably fallacious cosmological theories from the Vedas then we will seen as fools by almost everyone. Only the least educated and simplest types of people will take the message of a group which teaches that the Vedic cosmological theories are inviolate seriously Sri Caitanya said "In every verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam and in every syllable, there are various meanings." (Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya 24.318) But there are those who will insist that there is in fact a mountain 80,000 miles high. Sadaputa Das has some intersting theories about non literal interpretations of these things at www.sciencereligionbooks.com. Blind faith in magical allegorical tales and the demagogic attempt to coerce people into accepting that outlook is a disservice to them. If you want to teach that literal acceptance of these stories is some kind of yardstick that measures a person's humility and faith, I put it to you that those who think and speak in that way are misguiding and misguided. Only ridicule will come of it. I have written about this earlier at on Chakra. Shiva das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted August 16, 2005 Report Share Posted August 16, 2005 <img src=http://canoeparts.ca/KINGDOM/MoomRobot.jpg> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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