Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Today's world has an undisguised problem with some western based propagandists - this post discusses some aspects of this propaganda and - its purpose. It is now custom to see in televangelist’s TV and radio broadcasts and leaflets and now web-sites - intolerance propaganda which declares - Hindus, Jews, Muslims [and other non-evangelical Christians] etc., shall go to hell - for not rejecting their ‘anti-christ and satanic faiths’ - to embrace the ‘true’ Jesus and ‘true’ Christianity. Yes there is a history with war and religion - and the Satan myth is a big big part of the fuel. When I think of the 'Satan Myth' - I like to consider this good Bhagavata Purana verse: "A rope causes fear for a bewildered person who considers it a snake, but not for a person with proper intelligence who knows it to be only a rope. Similarly, You, as the Super-soul in everyone's heart, inspire fear or fearlessness according to ones intelligence, but in You there is no duality." [srimad Bhagavatam 6.9.37] The concept of 'Satan as a powerful adversary of God' - did not exist in Judaism prior to the 6th century B.C.E. Babylonian exile. This is [partly] evidenced through texts that are ‘pre-exile’ such as - Isaiah 45.7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things" There was a wholly-evil figure within the Persian religion - the archetype of today’s Satan. In the Persian pantheon - the god Ahura-Mazda - was opposed [co-eternally] by a powerful evil being known as - Ahriman or Shaitan. This concept of a wholly-evil entity was integrated into Hebrew teachings [correlated as a tester] - during the 6th century B.C.E. exile - later over time this interpolated allegorical idea became distorted into the fictitious adversarial Satan of the New Testament. Two Old Testament passages - Isaiah 14.12 and Ezekiel 28.11-19 - have been advanced with much apologetics to provide a depiction of [so-called] Satan. Even though historical evidence confirms that these texts were addressed originally to the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre [in that order] - still many ill-informed people believe the false teachings that the reference is to the fictitious Satan. Let’s take a look at these two texts [of course there are many more]: Isaiah 14.12: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!" - 'context' is found in texts 11 and 20 - "All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you." - then see text 20 - "you will not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land and killed your people" - then again look at text 16 - "Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "Is this the MAN who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble,.." As we can see [in proper context] Isaiah 14.12 is talking about a long expired MAN - not a fictitious Satan. In referencing Ezekiel 28.11-19 [which is an allegory] - it only appears that there is a discussion about - ‘Satan in the garden of Eden’ - text 13: "You were in Eden, the garden of God;..." In the footnote to this text the New International Version Translation states: "...The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain." We do know the text is about the king of Tyre - it is an allegorical text - nothing in the Hebrew understanding of this verse actually accepts it as an evidence of the existence Satan/Lucifer. Clearly these two texts reflect something 'very different' than a fictitious Satan - that these are the two oft most quoted ‘biblical texts’ to prove [scripturally] that there is a so-called Satan - makes no-sense without elaborate apologetics. Why do so many groups cling to this illusion - preaching that Satan is real - with all the ill-delusional myths which go with it? In the political arena this fiction called Satan has entered - with such dangerous features for all! It seems that most biblical extremists think that there is a Satan - and they claim that their enemies are acting on his direction and glorification. There are so many examples to be given - so let's just say 'without' those examples - extremist Christians [from various schools] and extremist Muslims [from various schools] and extremist Zionist Jews [from various schools] are converging in a global arena. It seems that these parties are all focused on a so-called end-times scenario [in differing capacities] - and this focus is [in the least] creating a sick propaganda from these groups - propaganda directed at the masses - in the nations in which each various group reside. For example - the propaganda regarding an Antichrist and a global satanic government - is heavily preached by evangelicals through all major medias. Their view is that a 'satanic revived roman empire' shall - 'devour all tongues and peoples' - through a global dictatorship. Clearly - global events are increasingly showing that the Iraq invasion/occupation and the war on terror could actually vary into some kind of ‘modern’ variant on the ‘Crusades’. When the ‘invaders’ are [brace yourself] shoving pig flesh and liquor into the mouths of [Muslim] ‘prisoners’ and making them - ‘thank Jesus for their lives’ [incidents in the Abu Grahb prison scandal] - we can cringe at the thoughts of what they might do to others - under the wrong circumstances! Or how about the violations of the Sacred Scripture of Islam - in a place that defies justification - a place called 'the gulag of our times'? Incidents such as these are not a good trend - in light of the proclivities of their graveyard consciousness. Really now - what an offence - to everyone - and that it all still goes on...!? What exactly is it going to take to oblige the innocent masses of the west - to envision - the hell that some in our western world are trying to induce everyone into? Indeed - there are ‘western’ based religious extremist activities which if left - unchecked - shall eventually arise as a direct menace to the innocent masses. What I am getting at is clandestine religious extremism - it has been said that - religion without philosophy is fanaticism and philosophy without religion is sentimentality. We can appreciate that there have been [variant grades of] extremists incipient from all faiths - it becomes more dangerous - when aggressive political leaders and religious leaders are extremists. Innocent minded people do not know [the reasons] that the mainstream fundamentalist Christian groups are [for decades now] widely preaching faith-based intolerance and hate. This ‘preaching’ has no place in a burgeoning pluralistic global society - their propaganda centers around a maledicted teaching of an emerging ‘world government’ - ‘the beast government’ - which they say is [at this time] the ‘European Union’ - declaring the E.U. - to be a so-called - "satanic revived roman empire". "Christian history boasts a long list of godly men and women who understood the mandate to act in behalf of Jerusalem. The list is too long to print here...throughout Christian history there were some who clearly saw this mandate. Some saw Israel's rebirth even before the Jews themselves were interested." - [bridgesforpeace.com] What was that?! "Some [Christian fundamentalists] saw Israel's rebirth even before the Jews themselves were interested."!? Many Zionist groups take political help from evangelical leaders [and their lobby groups] - thinking that these care about them [and middle east peace] - but the truth is otherwise - and they are more and more knowing this. Many people - including Israelis and other internationally situated Jews are well aware of the fact that evangelicals posit - grounded on a calculated and mistaken interpretation of Zechariah 13.8 - that there must [still] be at some point - a devastating war in the middle east - in which two-thirds of all the Jews - will be massacred. In their Armageddon Theology they passionately posit that the leader to emerge as the ‘peace maker’ in the middle east - shall actually be the so-called ‘prophesied’ anti-Christ. In fact - it is widely asserted by them [by twisting the Old Testament Book of Daniel and New Testament Book of Revelation] that the rebuilding of the third Temple in Jerusalem is to be brokered by this so-called ‘prophesied’ anti-Christ! They claim the awaited Hebrew [human] messiah is really going to be the 'Antichrist'! The evangelical propagandists and machinators have an extensive history of two way goading and manipulating of Muslims [in particular Arab Muslims] against Jews and in particular - Zionists. Thus seeing that their Armageddon Theology posits that the leader to emerge as the ‘peace maker’ in the middle east - shall actually be the so-called ‘prophesied’ anti-Christ - and that the rebuilding of the third Temple in Jerusalem is to be brokered by this so-called ‘prophesied’ anti-Christ - proves that evangelicals do not really care about what is best for the Muslims and Jews in the middle east - as evidenced by their constant ‘preaching’ efforts to stir up world war III in the middle east. Millions of Jews and Muslims [and an honorable ‘peace-making’ leader whom they shall designate as the so-called ‘prophesied’ anti-Christ] may wind up dead - but they don’t care - it will be good for sales of their offensive Armageddon books and videos - hawked on televangelist broadcasts and web-sites. The extremists in the other camps won't care either - in their minds - it'll justify their ill-extremist reactions. The eagerness of evangelicals to get a war going in the middle east - along with their vehement Arab-bashing and Muslim-baiting - must be evaluated in context of their belief in the nefarious Armageddon Theology - which dictates that ‘two thirds’ of all Jews shall perish in a coming ‘final’ world war. As noted - the mainstream evangelicals are waiting for this ‘war’ and will designate it as - "Armageddon" - with dangerous ambitions to cheat the innocent masses - into thinking that a so-called 'prophesied' "end-times scenario" is taking place. This will create even bigger disturbances - as many more people become suspicious of the qualified "Providential" World Administration that must soon emerge. Those that don’t properly understand biblical prophesy - but nonetheless embrace it and thus preach the evangelical propaganda - will then induce so many more who were even less inclined to search for truth to fight against a Providential "World Administration" - based on a blind faith in gross misconceptions of so-called "end-times prophecies". One area they will fight is real peace in the middle east! Republican America's apparently ineffectual 'Road Map' for a Palestinian Statehood cannot be [but most likely is] some ‘little revised' facsimile of the failed and inequitable U.N. Resolution 181 - [u.N. Partition Plan - dated November 29, 1947]. Their Road Map states: "...Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement...on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide..." First - the foremost religious interest of Jews, Christians and Muslims worldwide - should be real peace for all those living in the middle east - otherwise - what is the meaning to their ideas of a far-away Holy Land? Can pilgrimage in a terror ridden war zone be transcendental? Clearly hindsight and a common sense rationality may [purposely] elude the Road Map coordinators - it will NOT suffice - neither now - nor ever - to offer each party 'a balance of land' - ‘split 50/50 with fewer broken borders'. It must be clearly understood that the central 'Jerusalem issue' demands Just resolution - once and for all. This disagreement on [the proper and final status of] Jerusalem cannot be ‘resolved’ in a manner that was espoused within U.N. Resolution 181. As much as they would like to hope and think that [even for a limited time] an "international Jerusalem city state" - is the 'best and most fair [interim] solution' - these same people dismiss [with calculation] that this scenario would be an untenable situation. We are not ever going to see any success with a so-called: "...Governor of an international City of Jerusalem [who] shall have the right to...make decisions on the basis of existing rights in cases of disputes which may arise between the different religious communities or the rites of a religious community with respect to such places, buildings and sites..." [From U.N. Resolution 181] Who cannot 'predict' the many ill-factional games that would quickly emerge within 'this' scenario - of course - a "dispute" of "sites" is a very predictable event - as are its consequential dangers and potentially [irrepressibly] violent outcomes! We must face the reality that part of the 'Justice' here 'naturally demands' that Jerusalem is going to have be again a fully Israeli City. This city is the Hebrew 'Spiritual Center' - or 'tether'. Indeed Muslims - in particular - can see 'why' it is thus important to Jews - through a comparison to their own 'Spiritual Center' - 'Mecca'. Will this reality [of a change for Jerusalem] be - 'need fully' concluded - "honorably" and through - "Justice" - or "dishonorably" - through the so-called leaders of the World's 'singular' Superpower [with their evangelical machinators] - cultivating a future 'need less' "Violence and Urban War"? The only course to see success in this connection is one that presents FULL Justice to the suffering Palestinians and - then 'historic move' of the 'Dome and Alaqsa Mosque' to its new location can take place - BEFORE the building of the third Temple can begin. We now see daily 'attempts' [by Zionist extremists] on the Dome and Mosque compound - and with all the other regional violence - it may end up that the 'clearing' of the mutually holy site of the ancient and Sacred "Dome of the Rock" [and compound] will take place with a so-called "Errant’ Rocket attack or worse - in a terrorist attack. Thus - if old Jerusalem is going to EVER see her new third Temple - then this Honourable "move" is the first step. If it be a so-called ‘Errant’ Rocket [or terror] attack which eventually get the Temple "building process" underway - then material nature and common sense logic dictate: NO amount of Diplomacy or Political Manoeuvring shall promote "Resolution" - what to speak of "Peace and Security"! When the Historic move comes - Israel, Great Britain and America [the original 'partners in this partition'] should 'rightly' and "instantly" pay out the Billions of Dollars needed to move the 'Dome of the Rock' and Mosque Compound - ‘Stone by Stone’. Move them onto - say 'the border of Jordan' - ‘there’ the Palestinian peoples must be - "Empowered by the World Community" [and (in real time) financed by the above mentioned three States - with 'other' international help] to create a NEW ‘State of the Art Capital City’ - THIS must be done for the Palestinians - they must now get their deserved New State. A State whose "borders" must NOT be marginalized into "a few miles" or into a "city-state". As noted - the foremost religious interest of Jews, Christians and Muslims worldwide - should be real peace for all those living in the middle east - otherwise - what is the meaning to their ideas of a Far-away Holy Land? So the idea of the illusional Satan is a dangerous idea and it has growing political significance. Srila Prabhupada the founder of the Hare Krishna movement wrote: "...This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains..." [srimad Bhagavatam 1.17.28, purport] If one has any real faith in biblical prophesy - then one MUST consider that for an Absolute God there are no contradictions - only diverse followers - who see contradictions. Scriptures tell us that there will be a multi-faith 'messianic' Future! One good point to consider is that we learn from Jewish prophesy that during the messianic age it shall be 'multi-faith' - consider that! "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 'For all people will walk every one in the name of his god', and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever." So we should think about Jesus' parable about - "many mansions in my father's house"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Mark 13 And as he came out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher, what wonderful stones and what wonderful buildings!" And Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down." And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign when these things are all to be accomplished?" And Jesus began to say to them, "Take heed that noone leads you astray. Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and they will lead many astray. And when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places, there will be famines; this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. "But take heed to yourselves; for they will deliver you up to councils; and you will be beaten in synagoques; and you will stand before govenors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them. And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say; but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. "But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be, then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything away; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! Pray that it may not happen in winter. For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of creation which God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not shortened the days, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. And then if any one says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. False Christs and false prophets will arise and show signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But take heed; I have told you all things beforhand. "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to ends of heaven. "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come. It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. Watch therefore- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockrow, or in the morning- lest he come and find you asleep. And what I say to you I say to all: Watch." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I have grown a broader view of Satan. He is the mythological archetype for the average human in the Kali-yuga. I call him Satan Smith. I would like you to meet Mr. and Mrs. Satan Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Yes very nice comparison - I am sure that you see that even though satan is fiction - it still makes for a basis of contrasting 'people' - within western terminology - as you indicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Isn't it sad when Gaudiya Vaisnavas revert back to their Christian backgrounds? Satan or any Christian ideas have little or no impact on my devotion to Mahaprabhu. I couldn't care less about Satan or Jesus for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 It IS sad that anyone would leave Prabhupada and Krishna for anything - sort of like going from Gold back to copper! This fixation many have with satan isn't good for them - nor those around them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Don, that was an excellent article you wrote. I really appreciate the deep thought you put into it. My personal feeling is that the only satanic power in the world is the will of mankind to do evil things. One evil in the world is that people choose to throw all common sense out the window, instead accepting noahs ark theology as "Biblical truth". They decide to believe in their televangelist mentor's concocted fundamentalist doctrines. They swallow up this "superstition theology", like frogs eating slime. Their belief systems are dangerous and they are far away from real spiritual realization of the Reality of God. Of course this is only my opionion, but in the face of the mass craziness of "televangelism" I am keen to stand up an "give witness" that the followers of the televangelist preachers have lost their wits. These people think they are "holy". But I see them as believers in blood sacrifices, ritual cannibalism and the cult of "blood drinking" of the blood of "the Messian". In my opinion the rites of this religion are just voodoo. A different flavour of voodoo, maybe, but voodoo nevertheless. These evil evangelicals who think that the establishment of the United Nations, a peaceful, co-operative world council of nations, is a satanic plot organized by the anti-christ, are in fact the ones who are deluded by false prophets - the televangelical money grabbers. The followers of "Dispensation Theology" are very numerous in the USA. They are influential in American politics and consequently they have an effect upon the whole world. They are a danger to the world. They desire to see "the last days" and in their egotism they think they will be among "the elect" who go to heaven in "the rapture". They have no real appreciation for Jesus' teachings about "love your neighbour" and "turn the other cheek", besides claiming that they are followers of Jesus. But like you said, Don, these people are bringing Armageddon into the world. They are constructing a situation where Armageddon will happen in Israel. There is nothing so dangerous as a bad idea, and in my view Dispensation Theology is a very, very bad idea. My Guru Maharaj told me that Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said "If fire burns the whole world, do not waste time trying to put it out. All necessities can be met only by serving Krishna." Remembering Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur, I feel some relief from the disturbance that comes to my mind when I think about what might happen through the work of this Dispensationalist Voodoo cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I never actually was a Gaudiya Vaisnava, never took any vows or initiation or anything, I just studied the literature over the internet to expand my base of knowledge. When I read about all the guru problems I opted not to join. That kind of stuff just scares me, seen it all already a million times in the inferior religion of Christianity. Believe it or not I still have a lot of respect for Prabhupada even though I still find inspiration from Christian scriptures. Is there such a thing as fundamentalist Vaisnavas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I admit it is possible that Satan is only a myth but I think it is also possible that he is a Hiranyakisipu type of character as well. I wasn't there when Jesus was crucified so its hard to be sure one way or another. I used to be in the camp that Satan was a myth all the way but I see a lot of similarities between him and the allegories in Srimad Bhagavatam so the thought comes to my mind that it may be possible that Satan was a real character. There seem to be quite a few examples of Krishna creating an adversary to get his jollies fighting in the material world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Kali was banished to live only where meat-eating, gambling, illicit sex and intoxication are found. If these are the gates to degradation, then Kali could perhaps be seen as some kind of devil. Then there are the gates to hell: lust, anger and greed. Perhaps he is a metaphorical gate-keeper using lust, anger and greed to lead us to hell. I remember arguing with a Christian minister who was adamant that Hinduism was polytheistic. He ended up screaming "I have seen the devil face-to-face. I know what I'm talking about!" He was so foolish and obnoxious, maybe he really had been blessed by the devil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 LOL Yeah he probably has seen Satan everytime he looks in the mirror. That's a good point. Satan probably does resemble Kali more than anything. That goes along well with an interesting version of Satan that I heard. This version says Satan is still an angel of God and that God placed him here to test mens faith in God. In essence he tries to lure people away from God but ultimately it is a test of their faith. I guess the lesson is always consistent if you rely on God you never lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 My understanding is that God can see that the eternal jiva souls (baddha jiva) have all sorts of cravings and desires, so he gives them bodies that enable them to have an actual experience of the things they desire. Some desire to eat warm flesh, so they get born as crocodiles, etc. Consequently, we have "the material world". Which Vishnu envisages as a kind of dream. The way Vishnu sees things is "reality" and the way the baddha jivas see things is "illusion". According to Vishnu's plan, the Creator creates the world of material existence. According to Vishnu's plan, living beings get born into the world in a Time and Place that enables them to fulfil their individual desires. According to Vishu's plan, Shiva brings about the end of the world. There is only one God. The idea that there is some Evil Force that contends with God and disturbs his plan for the world is a false idea. An idea (as has been said before on these forums), which Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur said was first proposed by Zoaraster, and which was passed on to the Jews during the time of their captivity in Babylon. Don has said: "The concept of 'Satan as a powerful adversary of God' - did not exist in Judaism prior to the 6th century B.C.E. Babylonian exile." -- Muralidhar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 Ancient Mariner, you asked if there is such a thing as Vaishnava fundamentalists. Yes there are. If you want to know what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur thought about them, read his book Sri Krishna Samhita you can download it here http://www.mandala.com.au/books/sriKrishnaSamhita.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 What you guys are saying and I don't agree with Christians that attack other religions and say they are the work of the devil and blame their own misdeeds on the devil. It goes without saying that such folk are deluded. Despite that I still find the Book of Mark and the Book of Revelations to be beautiful books and I still find it amazing how many parallels there are to the allegories in Srimad Bhagavatam and the Bible. Of course demonic beings don't ultimately disturb God's plan for the world but nevertheless God does have adversaries when he is in the material world or when he sends an avatar that avatar seems to always have adversaries so I don't see how it is accurate to say there is no evil force in the world, its just that God always wins and evil or maya or whatever always loses or gets swept away to rebirth I guess. The Bible portraits God and his angels as winning the battle so I don't see how it denegrates the monotheism or supremacy of God in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Thank you for your kind words! Quote: My personal feeling is that the only satanic power in the world is the will of mankind to do evil things. Reply: You make a point - just because there is no Lucifer who was an angel that fell and became Satan - just because that is a myth - evil and evil beings are not a myth. In fact there is this good text from Bhagavatam where Brahma the creator is describing various entities [including himself] and how some people take them as being God - but we note the number of entities that sound 'evil' in the description: " I myself [brahma], Lord Siva, Lord Vishnu, great generators of living beings like Daksa and Prajapati, yourselves [Narada and the Kumaras], heavenly demigods like Indra and Candra, the leaders of the Bhurloka planets, the leaders of the earthly planets, the leaders of the lower planets, the leaders of the Gandharva planets, the leaders of the Vidyadhara planets, the leaders of the Caranaloka planets, the leaders of the Yaksas, Raksas and Uragas, the great sages, the great demons, the great atheists and the great spacemen, as well as the dead bodies, evil spirits, satans, jinn, kusmandas, great aquatics, great beasts and great birds, etc.--in other words, anything and everything which is exceptionally possessed of power, opulence, mental and perceptual dexterity, strength, forgiveness, beauty, modesty, opulence, and breeding, whether in form or formless--may appear to be the specific truth and the form of the Lord, but actually they are not so. They are only a fragment of the transcendental potency of the Lord." [sB 2.6.43-45] So we see these beings named: "evil spirits, satans, jinn, kusmandas" - in the transliteration it says that 'kusmandas' are "a special type of evil spirit" - and there are jinn and ghosts. So no there may not be a fallen angel called Satan with a band of fallen angels following him - hell bent on incarnating through a man as the Antichrist - but there are unseen evil beings - who prey upon many weak minded souls - especially those who ascribe to the Satan myth - they may be an even easier target for these kinds of beings. Often in the world of the occult [and the New Age movements] it is fashionable to engage in trans-medium [or channelling] - even the evangelicals do it in their churches - they call it 'speaking in tongues and prophesying' - so in any case - this activity is unhealthy - a desire to be possessed by any spirit is dangerous. I am sure that you know all this... Quote: They decide to believe in their televangelist mentor's concocted fundamentalist doctrines. They swallow up this "superstition theology", like frogs eating slime. Their belief systems are dangerous and they are far away from real spiritual realization of the Reality of God. Of course this is only my opinion, but in the face of the mass craziness of "televangelism" I am keen to stand up an "give witness" that the followers of the televangelist preachers have lost their wits. Reply: Yes that is certainly well described - but we must not forget that this message - the 'slime' - its dissemination isn't limited to televangelism - it is preached in scores of evangelical churches around the world - this truly is a global issue - enough evidence to suggest that it is a concerted global effort to hijack the masses from the traditional churches - to become little [voting] automatons in their "true Christianity". That is the danger. As one example - just see the evil garbage that they spew about the Catholic Church - that the next pope is allegedly going to be the so-called false prophet as described in their nefarious Armageddon theology! When innocent and not well informed catholics hear this 'slime' many are convinced and they leave the churches - [and it happens to other non-evangelical christian Churches as well] - of course - they also preach that Hindus, Jews, Muslims and all other non-biblical faiths are part of the 'beast's system'! Which brings me to the next point - there are evil people in the world - evil for various reasons - Krishna gives much information on how to identify them - the texts are well known in the Gita - so how often do the so-called evangelicals turn out to be demoniac - as Krishna says: "O son of Pritha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demonic. I have already explained to you at length the divine qualities. Now hear from Me of the demoniac." [bG 16.6] Then there is this description of these religious demons: "Self-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only without following any rules or regulations. Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body and in the bodies of others, and blasphemes against the real religion." [bG 16.17-18] If that isn't a correct outline of the evangelicals - especially the televangelists - then - I do not know what could be!! This is a good text in this connection: "That understanding which considers irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion, under the spell of illusion and darkness, and strives always in the wrong direction, O Partha, is in the mode of ignorance." [bG 18.32] As noted the mainstream evangelical churches and centers are preaching on two points; Armageddon/Antichrist etc., and - the bashing of other faith groups - with the view to convert the 'spiritually bashed' into their mindless cult. Quote: The followers of "Dispensation Theology" are very numerous in the USA. They are influential in American politics and consequently they have an effect upon the whole world. They are a danger to the world. They desire to see "the last days" and in their egotism they think they will be among "the elect" who go to heaven in "the rapture". Reply: Considering that their propaganda centers around a militated [and militarisation] teaching of an emerging ‘world government’ - ‘the beast government’ - which they say is [at this time] the ‘European Union’ - declaring the E.U. - to be a so-called - “satanic revived roman empire” - it thus becomes a conflicted scenario - when we see the leaders in the U.S.A. ascribe to this theology. We know that to some extent - these extremist ideologies and all their ill-motivated implications are embraced by Mr. George W. Bush. Certainly Mr. Bush may think and believe whatever he likes - even ill-reasoned illusions - yet he as the leader of the most weaponized nation in the world - could one day present himself as a [further] global menace - in respect to how his 'doctrines' [continue to] affect U.S. foreign policies. I am holding out for a miracle - God will 'pour His Spirit out upon earth's leaders' - at some point and - they will see - it is already happening... This rapture issue is a joke - it's going to a 'rupture' not a 'rapture'! There isn't even a consensus among the propagandists regarding this issue - some of them preach that the rapture is a false teaching! Really - it really makes me wonder when I see intelligent leaders ascribing to this Armageddon cult - all critical remarks about Mr. Bush aside - I am certain that he is smart enough to know that the central points to his faith are a sham. [there is the possibility that he doesn't - pity him and so many more if he really is that thick] It is sad that he seems 'more guided' by what these groups - as voters - can do for him and his party - than he is about the realities of his position as a leader in a world in which these groups bait and cultivate discord. Krishna explains: "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." [bG 3.21] I am praying that all the nations leaders are soon opened to real truth and that they embrace it - it's time for them to be what they really can and - should be! Quote: They have no real appreciation for Jesus' teachings about "love your neighbour" and "turn the other cheek", besides claiming that they are followers of Jesus. Reply: Yes you are correct - the evangelicals twist Jesus' words where he is admonishing his followers to 'preach the gospel to all creatures' - they twist it into an opposite - i.e.: their end times propaganda program - using this so-called 'commission from Jesus' - as an excuse to push the Armageddon theology while bashing all other faith groups. The gospel that Jesus was speaking of was not the program that they are preaching! In fact Jesus said to preach the gospel - to 'all creatures' - so what did He mean? We cannot teach an animal about the Antichrist - nor can we teach him about God - but we can express the love of God for [to] the animal [by not eating them for instance] - so that is what Jesus was saying - take the gospel of love and - share it with all creatures - he was not commanding them to go on a crusade - he was telling them to spread his message of love 'by example' - i.e.: to 'live his message of love with all creatures' - this may seem like an abstract interpretation - but how otherwise how do we 'preach' to all creatures? Srimad Bhagavatam has this nice text in this connection: "One should treat animals such as deer, camels, asses, monkeys, mice, snakes, birds and flies exactly like one’s own son. How little difference there actually is between children and these innocent animals." [sB 7.14.9] There is no doubt that whatever Jesus meant - it had nothing to do with the ill-program they are preaching. They would do well to heed God's point - when He says: “One who sees the Supersoul [God] in every living being and equal everywhere does not degrade himself by his mind. Thus he approaches the transcendental destination.” [bG 13.29] Quote: They are constructing a situation where Armageddon will happen in Israel. There is nothing so dangerous as a bad idea, and in my view Dispensation Theology is a very, very bad idea. Reply: Yes - actually - I see the whole evangelical propaganda as anti-semitic TRASH - without doubt - they have no regard for hebrews - despite the zealous sermons to the contrary and again - to quote Krishna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." [bG 16.9] Thank you for your nice reply and may Krishna Bless You and Yours! Jaya Narahari! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Please see my other reply to 'guest'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 You have mature understanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Please accept my respectfull obeisances! All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Dear Prabhu: Hey - Are You are a Prabhupada disciple? Quote: ...The followers of "Dispensation Theology" are very numerous in the USA. They are influential in American politics and consequently they have an effect upon the whole world. They are a danger to the world. They desire to see "the last days"... Reply: When I think of Mr. Bush and his - 'whitehouse prayer meetings' - I wonder if they ever during these meetings discuss the spiritual implications of - [for him, (and ALL his colleges) and everyone else] - all the carnage that they are wreaking on the peoples of the globe...do they get it? [we know already the answer!] I wonder if - in their [so-called] spiritual discussions - Mr. Bush 'ever' comes away feeling 'compunction' for what he is ordering into action each day? We can recall King Yudhishtira's lamentations following the battle of kurukshetra: "King Yudhishtira said: O my lot! I am the most sinful man! Just see my heart, which is full of ignorance! This body, which is ultimately meant for others, has killed many, many phalanxes of men. I have killed many boys, brahmanas, well-wishers, friends, parents, preceptors and brothers. Though I live millions of years, I will not be relieved from the hell that awaits me for all these sins. There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens. But this injunction is not applicable to me. I have killed many friends of women, and I have thus caused enmity to such an extent that it is not possible to undo it by material welfare work. As it is not possible to filter muddy water through mud, or purify a wine-stained pot with wine, it is not possible to counteract the killing of men by sacrificing animals." [sB 1.8.48-52] In the 'Purport' to text 49 Srila Prabhupada states: "Whenever there is a war, there is certainly a massacre of many innocent living beings, such as boys, brahmanas and women, whose killing is considered to be the greatest of sins...It was simply horrible for him to think of such killing, and therefore he was thinking of residing in hell for millions and billions of years." So I wonder - when Mr. Bush [and Mr. Blair] think of the carnage they are wreaking - especially with THEM knowing full well that their so-called 'emergency' - is more manufactured - than 'not' - so I wonder - do they ever try to understand what a good king's lamentation sounds like in this regard? If they were so inclined - shastra has it: 'There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens. But this injunction is not applicable to me.' Despite what they may [wishfully] think - the injuction isn't applicable to them either! Then there is this lucid description: "...Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the war fields at the whims of a particular man?..." [sB 1.10.4, purport] Alas this gets even closer to their situation: "...Even those who sincerely endeavor for self-improvement know that it is very hard to quell cherished ambitions. Sometimes these ambitions are so grandiose that we keep them secret, yet we cherish them within. An obscure, untalented man thinks he may one day become the dictator of the world..." [Mukunda-Mala-Stotra, text 40, purport] So 'what' can turn 'their' trend - what can make things improve - yes - you said it: >>>My Guru Maharaj told me that Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said "If fire burns the whole world, do not waste time trying to put it out. All necessities can be met only by serving Krishna."<<< We can see that Bhagavatam explains the providential cause of some political enmities: "The Lord was pacified after killing those kings who were burdensome to the earth. They were puffed up with their military strength, their horses, elephants, chariots, infantry, etc. He Himself was not a party in the fight. He simply created hostility between the powerful administrators, and they fought amongst themselves. He was like the wind which causes friction between bamboos and so sparks a fire." I love how Prabhupada slices it right open in the purport: "...When...misuse of human energy is prominent, the saner living beings become perturbed by the awkward situation created by the vicious administrators, who are simply burdens of the earth, and the Lord appears by His internal potency just to save the saner section of humanity and to alleviate the burden due to the earthly administrators in different parts of the world. He does not favor either of the unwanted administrators, but by His potential power He creates hostility between such unwanted administrators, as the air creates fire in the forest by the friction of the bamboos. The fire in the forest takes place automatically by the force of the air, and similarly the hostility between different groups of politicians takes place by the unseen design of the Lord. The unwanted administrators, puffed up by false power and military strength, thus become engaged in fighting amongst themselves over ideological conflicts and so exhaust themselves of all powers. The history of the world reflects this factual will of the Lord, and it will continue to be enacted until the living beings are attached to the service of the Lord...." [sB 1.11.34] Your servant, BDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Here is a thought [reply to an evilangelical] I posted on arabia.com [no longer online] just around two years ago in July 2003: Quote: and bhakta_don (MUNTEAN) has made a plan...but God has made an unbreakable covenant and His will be done ---- Reply: HARE KRISHNA - Well "MY" so-called "Plan" follows a simple Logic and Dharma - [prove it doesn't!] - as outlined within the many clear 'Orders' of God, and within 'context' - as outlined within all scriptural traditions everywhere - of course 'you' are in a Stark Defiance against the real 'Orders' of God - you - [with blatant stupidity and/or calculation] - push-on yer sick and twisted evil CULT - one which has 'EVERYONE' - not "born again" - (sucked into your cult) - suffering in an - 'eternal' hell-fire with yer - FICTIONAL SATAN. [and with a calamitous global war before sending them there?] We do know why YOUR CULT twists only a slight hand full of - 'out of context and misinterpreted' - "bible verses" into your 'Maledicted Performance Sermons' - we've discussed some of these points already and you've admitted it - Prophet Isaiah WAS speaking of a PAST king of Babylon and Prophet Ezekial WAS speaking of a PAST king of Tyrus - not your FICTIONAL Persian "Satan" - oh and yet again - them 'Garden of Eden' stories (which are oh so 'central' to 'your' salvation theory) [interpreted as an allegory by Hebrews] are a Mesopotamian interpolation - there are no REAL biblical connections to your FICTIONAL Persian "Satan" - in fact your Cult's doctrines of a 'mankind infected' with a congenital "original sin" - isn't an original Hebrew doctrine either. It is not even a Hebrew doctrine that the Hebrew's future "Messiah" 'should/would' 'die for mankind's sins'. NO - the messiah will have a 'sacrificial mission' - to 'redeem' the children of Abraham of their 'sacrificial sins' - nope - all YOUR doctrines are Fabrications based on Misinterpretations - [your Cult's "doctrines" are a long time Generational Scam!]. Your whole 'sacrificial lamb' connection to Sri Yeshua - is a very dangerous thing indeed - In Isaiah chapter 53 - which 'is' well accepted as a discussion of the future "Hebrew Messiah" [not Jesus!] we see that the Prophet has stated NOTHING about messiah's - 'death on a cross' - or - 'state execution' - [it does speak of a 'prison' stay - but 'where' this is - was not mentioned - we can be sure it 'will' be in Jerusalem]. In chapter 53 the Prophet is speaking of the Apostate Sacrificial issue - when reflecting on the 'future' Messiah [who's a mortal man - a Prophet of the Prophets, as it were - he's not 'God' in the flesh!] - it appears the children of Abraham's collective situation will come 'full circle' - by the time he 'appears' - i.e.: their collective 'test' [temptation] and final experience with him - will become like that of their original patriarch Abraham and his son Isaac - One can see from a clear reading of the Texts - that they will try to - "Sacrifice" - HIM: Text 7: - "... he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." We MUST look at WHAT leads to THAT situation - and we can; from the clear perspective of the Prophet Jeremiah - as recorded in 7.19-26: "Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put >your< burnt offerings unto >your< sacrifices, and [instead] eat [the] flesh. - For "I" spake NOT unto your fathers, NOR commanded them in the day that "I" brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning >burnt offerings or sacrifices<: But this thing commanded "I" them, saying, Obey my voice, and "I" will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that "I" have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. - But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. - Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day "I" have even sent unto you >all< my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: Yet they hearkened NOT unto 'me', NOR inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers." The truth is this bloody burnt sacrifice activity is NOT required - NOT desired - NOR EVER "Requested" from God - as we can clearly see. God states that these animal sacrifice practices come from - "...the counsels and the imagination of their evil heart..." - [and some lowest spectrum ancient pagan interpolations too!] - and 'that' is not hard to understand when looking at this sacrificial activity. So with the figure of 'Abraham' we see that God tells [tempts] him to - 'offer-up his Son as a Sacrifice' [as a 'test'] - which he then prepares to do - then God sends his agent - to intervene at the 'last moment' - then next comes a 'ram' caught up in the 'bushes' near-by - he [is tested (tempted) yet again] and he [fails*] and he 'offers' that 'animal' instead (*he failed only due to his simplicity - he must have misunderstood God's intent in his awe of the request) - so in 'this' we see the start of some interesting points. Did a spirit in fact 'TEMPT' him to provide his son as a burnt offering - to 'test' him? If so - 'was' it really God or 'someone' else? If it was God - what was the 'real' purpose of this 'test'? The fact that this Abraham was living in an area where this false worship [through animal sacrifices] was very prevalent IS revealing in this context - we're told that God wanted to 'make a pact' - wanted to work with him -- he saw something 'good' in this man - YET God >needed< to teach him that "HE" would NOT accept the all too prevalent FALSE worship - centered about human [and animal] sacrifices. We also must think and consider possible latter revisions made to these early Texts - to support the Temple and its 'sacrifices' and of course its Rich and Powerful Temple bureaucracies? etc. etc. etc.,? So in any case we see that God does 'everything' to 'discourage' them out of this activity - yet some Prophets - like Moses made grave errors in 'this' regard - in his case - we see that Moses [as a leader] really ticked him off - I don't think it was because Moses claimed that he himself had brought - 'the water from the rock' - no - it 'was' the 'flesh eating' and 'sacrifice' activity. Recall they even complained to Moses over their eating only Miracle Manna - instead of un-holy flesh like in Egypt. Moses knew 'why' GOD took them 'off the flesh' when they were led out from Egypt - we can thus read [chapter 11] in the Book of Numbers to see the terrible 'plague' from God - following their Desert Flesh Feast of Quail - [there were nearly 'mountains' of Quail falling from the sky!] - and then the subsequent 'brazen serpent' narration. Now think - does 'not' God say through Prophet Jeremiah - [that they've been doing these terrible things] - "Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt"? We can also see that in many cases some of the [unrecorded and minor] Prophets were NOT respected for speaking-out with the TRUTH - like with the case of Jesus - they were 'oppressed' and later in Jesus' case - WORSE! Of course we CAN see that God has HIS Plan: "I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them". We can see that after their Temple was last destroyed - [as directly predicted by the Prophet Jesus] - by the Romans in 70 C.E. - the REAL Hebrews then later [rightly] became focused on only the 'Torah of God' and the 'study' of that 'Torah' - they did THIS in the 'stead' of their too long 'aberrant' sacrifices - do yer study - FIND 'who' is it that said [within the biblical scriptures] - '...the prayers of our lips shall be as Bulls in the last days...'? Oh and DO recall Jesus and his angry outburst in the Temple of God - "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought (animals for sacrifice) in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." [Matthew 21.12] Clearly Jesus' major angry out-burst was in the 'Temple' - directed RIGHT at this animal sacrifice activity! You need to look at the REALITY of the things you read - No Jesus is 'not' the Hebrew Messiah – however, Sri Yeshua IS - a dear-most Servant and Prophet of GOD - who GOD himself dispatched - to warn of the impending destruction of their Temple and their system of things [status as a State]. It quickly happened as warned - in 70 C.E. - YES - the TRUTH is the TRUTH - neither you - nor anyone - can change it - NOT with ANY amount of Apologetics and Interpolations... Hare Krishna! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 QUOTE: Oh and DO recall Jesus and his angry outburst in the Temple of God - "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought (animals for sacrifice) in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." [Matthew 21.12] - Clearly Jesus' major angry out-burst was in the 'Temple' - directed RIGHT at this animal sacrifice activity. --- We should note the connection of what Jesus said that day - to prophet Jeremiah in ch 7. 7-11 [whom he quoted]: "But here you are, putting your trust in deceitful words to your own loss! Are you to steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal, go after strange gods that you know not, and yet come to stand before me in this house which bears my name, and say: "We are safe; we can commit all these abominations again"? Has this house which bears my name become in your eyes a den of thieves? I too see what is being done, says the LORD." Question why evangelicals tell you an interpretation of Matthew 21.12 that says Jesus was responding the cheating money changers. Of course we know that when one went to the Temple in roman occupied Jerusalem to sacrifice - one could not use roman coins [or others] in the Temple - only the coinage of Tyre could be used for the purchases - all other money had to be exchanged for that. So naturally - there were people who exchanged it for them. The evangelicals actually teach a subtle anti-Semitic idea of them 'cheating'. In their interpretations they want you to ignore that Jesus was quoting Jeremiah ch 7.11 - and he and his contemporaries knew the 'context' of that quote - it was all to do with a form of - false worship. "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought (animals for sacrifice) in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." So in fact the second part of that is a confirmation - 'the seats of them that sold doves' - by turning over these tables - so no one could exchange their coins - meant interrupting the 'sacrificial business'. That says it all! We should also note that he saw it as an exploitation of the poor - as the doves were for those who could not afford a more expensive sacrifice. Indeed it is also conveyed by the Prophet 'and' Jesus that it is a 'thieving' from God - to think one can engage in sins and later expiate them - by killing animals. Their interpretations aren't true to the whole and original context of the narration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 5, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Here are some 'excerpts' [forgive any typos] taken from my various replies to other 'evangelical postings' at: http://pub19.bravenet.com/forum/1582971275/show/42256 [Note the title post at that URL made an offensive claim that 'Prince William of the house of Windsor' - is the messiah/antichrist] - [he is only 'one' famous person that has been cast-into this fictional role]. -------------------------- We know that the Messiah could NOT be a man who is already a prince or king etc., - he is a despised, loathed and diseased fellow! Look at [as only one example] Isaiah 53.3: "He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Further - messiah wasn't to be born until Jerusalem and Bethlehem were a part of a revived Israel [after the 70 C.E. diaspora at the hand of Rome]: Micah 5.1-2: "But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee [not exactly him - but his distant maternal family origin] shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will He give them [beth-lehem Ephrathah] up, until the time that she who travaileth [i.e.: the human mother of the human messiah] hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel." It wasn't until June 5, 1967 that Beth-leham [and all of Jerusalem] was again in Israel's control. [i was born on June 3, 1967] Thus looking at Micah 4.14 we see this interesting point: Now shalt thou gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops ["Bat-Gader": lit. fenced in maiden i.e.: Jerusalem]; they have laid siege against us; *they smite the judge of Israel with a *rod upon the cheek. I was sort of - 'smitten on the cheek' - on June 05, 2002! http://www.dental_spy_implants.blog.ca [please check out my 'real' protest blog in this connection] Check out this X-RAY OF the CRFID IMPLANT IN MY CHEEK] [at least do so just so you can avoid 'it' happening to you!] http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-5/1005212/dentalimplantx-ray.jpg The following link shows a skull - it is mine - from a CT scan [to image the implant] on December 10, 2004 [we see the left side in this scan] - not a good reproduction on the optical scanner but - the FRACTURES can be very easily seen [there are worse ones on the right side a and over my left eye on my forehead - the MRI tech at the hospital thought they were from when I was was hit by a car on July 10, 1998 - but it wasn't - no idea when it happened and there are no scars on the outside - all I know is 'God saved my life' - at some point. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-5/1005212/questioning2.jpg "Thou art come forth for the deliverance of Thy people, for the deliverance of Thine anointed; Thou woundest the head out of the house of the wicked, uncovering the foundation even unto the neck. Selah {P}" [Habakkuk 3.13] We all know the 'separation wall' was first started by the Israeli government in [April] 2002! Is it "me" well - who knows [?!] [Laugh-out-loud!] Of course - in the Hebrew understanding of 'messiah' - it is known that there isn't only one messiah. There have been others throughout history - we also must know that there are 'different departments' as it were [that the same prophetic texts can have various applications to different people at different times] - so there are Kingly messiahs - Priestly messiahs - and Prophetic messiahs - there are these three kinds of messiahs - or 'anointed' persons. Jesus was a 'Prophetic Messiah' who was also - an Empowered Incarnation. Mohammad was a 'Prophetic Messiah'. Islam incidentally - also teaches that there is to be [another] 'Madhi' or a 'messiah' - or - Universal Teacher. According to Hebrew texts there IS a going to be a [human] messiah he is expected when the earth is in - full peril. Lord Jesus especially stated that if 'those days be [not] shortened no flesh shall be saved'. So we have some various points to consider. God IS going to send some [human] messiah - and he is already being demonized by the evangelicals [for hundreds of years now] - of course all of it is based in misplaced envy and misunderstanding. If people would see that there is NOT going to be any anti-christ [because Satan is an interpolated Persian myth] - then they could see 'why' it is so dangerous to demonize [yet to exist] people based on ignorance. What happens when there IS a King in Israel - will these nations who have been thus brainwashed - attack? It isn't fair in the least to God, to oneself, to humanity and to the future to engage in mental speculations about these kinds of things. An important point to consider is that one must perfect ones understanding of Hebrew scripture [all scriptures] in FOUR different [and usually mutually exclusive] ways -so the first [kind of] interpretation is - 'peshat or the 'literal' - then there's - 'remez' or the 'allegorical' - followed with - 'derash' the 'homiletical' - and finally 'sod' the 'mystical'. It is important NOT to focus only on so-called literal points not considering these others. One must understand especially messianic texts - in light of these explications. "Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.' {S}" [Zechariah 8.13] Clearly - 'messiah' will at some point hang-out and 'serve the rulers' [*leaders] of the new world order! "Because, even because *they have led My people astray, saying: Peace, and there is no peace; and when it buildeth up a slight wall, behold, they daub it with whited plaster;" [Ezekiel 13.10] "Thus will I spend My fury upon the wall, and upon *them that have daubed it with whited plaster; and I will say unto you: The wall is no more, neither *they that daubed it;" [Ezekiel 13.15] "Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. {P} Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity!" [Habakkuk 2.10-12] "Behold, I have given him for a witness to the peoples, a prince and commander to the peoples. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee; because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for He hath glorified thee. {S}" [isaiah 55.5-6] "Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken, ye peoples, from far: the LORD hath called me from the womb, from the bowels of my mother hath He made mention of my name; And He hath made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of His hand hath He hid me; and He hath made me a polished shaft, in His quiver hath He concealed me;" [isaiah 49.1-2] "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee. {S} Thus saith the LORD: In an acceptable time have I answered thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;" [isaiah 49.7-8] "Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and [he] was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin [responsibility] of many, and made intercession for the *transgressors. {P}" [isaiah 53.12] So as I have shown - I can take the events from even my own life and show [rather lucidly] that since even I could be this messiah [who'll be called anti-christ by some] it goes to show that one may apply things as one likes and believe as such. [not that I am making any claims here!] You should also ask yourself - what if it were you or - someone you know? Since this next messiah - 'the wonder counselor' - is to be from the ranks of the out-castes we must be careful how we treat everyone - most especially those who are down and out - or those - who have had all their rights taken away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 Bhakta Don Prabhu, dont waste too much time fighting the cheating religions of the Yavanas. fight them only if they attack you directly - even dung has it's benefits, everything exists for a reason... besides, the Yavanas will probably not see you as an authority on their scripture, but only as an agressor - and thus not be inclined to change. instead, study the wonderfull qualities of Sri Krishna and our tradition that leads towards Him directly. show people the higher taste, and they may follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Quote: One good point to consider is that we learn from Jewish prophesy that during the messianic age it shall be 'multi-faith' - consider that! "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 'For all people will walk every one in the name of his god', and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever." Reply: I forgot the 'citation' - that quote is from Micah chapter 4, texts 3 to 5. Of course the following part of this prophesy is also found in Isaiah: "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2005 Report Share Posted July 6, 2005 Well I am not fighting with them - I am engaging them - so as to help others - who shall read the discourse - I shall reply with more detail later tonight or tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhakta Don Muntean Posted July 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2005 So today we saw demoniac attacks in London - last week in India - so much chaos. I think it is important to see this - less as a demon issue and - more as a kuli [quarrel] yuga issue. Our world is now too surcharged with the qualities of passion and ignorance - and in the present age - there is quarrel over trivial matters - what to speak of actually 'provoking' people! For the evil of terrorist attacks there are NO excuses - but - there are causes - and - we hardly hear a mention from the western leaders about these real causes. Of course - some of these leaders - who are fuel to these causes - have no desire to see the baiting stop. No the point and counter-point - is calculated. As noted in this posting: 'Considering that their propaganda centers around a militated [and militarisation] teaching of an emerging ‘‘world government’’ - ‘‘the beast government’’ - which they say is [at this time] the ‘‘European Union’’ - declaring the E.U. - to be a so-called - ““satanic revived roman empire”” - it thus becomes a conflicted scenario - when we see the leaders in the U.S.A. ascribe to this theology. We know that to some extent - these extremist ideologies and all their ill-motivated implications are embraced by Mr. George W. Bush. Certainly Mr. Bush may think and believe whatever he likes - even ill-reasoned illusions - yet he as the leader of the most weaponized nation in the world - could one day present himself as a [further] global menace - in respect to how his 'doctrines' [continue to] affect U.S. foreign policies.' His comments today - made to the asuras responsible - 'bring it on' - say it all - he is baiting them! Now he can hijack this G-8 summit's purpose and over-ride it with his war mongering. In the pages of Bhagavata Purana we hear how one pious King felt after the great war that ushered in this age of quarrel - he certainly wasn't apatetic about the loss caused by his orders: "King Yudhishtira said: O my lot! I am the most sinful man! Just see my heart, which is full of ignorance! This body, which is ultimately meant for others, has killed many, many phalanxes of men...I have killed many boys, bräähmaëëas, well-wishers, friends, parents, preceptors and brothers. Though I live millions of years, I will not be relieved from the hell that awaits me for all these sins...There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens. But this injunction is not applicable to me." [srimad Bhagavatam 1.8.48-50] In His purport Srila Prabhupada notes: "...It was simply horrible for him to think of such killing, and therefore he was thinking of residing in hell for millions and billions of years." So of course I wonder - do all these 'leaders' with blood on their hands think that - 'There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens' - because that isn't the case in their 'point and counter-point' scenario. I listened in the past to Mr. Bush say that he doesn't ever wonder about the propriety of his choices to invade Iraq and thus cause the death and displacement of millions of innocent people. Without doubt the people of Iraq see Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair as terrorists. A matter of perspective? AS noted the western leaders have permitted the world to be very unequal - there is excess in one part and - nothing in others. We must not forget that there are so many non-humans being snuffed out at every moment - for gut and pocket-book and what is the result? Prabhupada says: "...when the demoniac population of thieves, rogues, and criminals steadily increases, the kingdom is filled with chaos and terror." So what happens we all live in a state of terror - all at the mercy of their point and counter-point non-sense! We are all to be terrorized soon - soon - no freedom of speech - it may be called sedition mongering better keep my mouth shut - so even now - everyone is terrorized - they must be brave to speak-out against western rogues baiting of other rogues in the under-developed areas of the globe. So now on the plea of national security and this unending manufactured 'emergency' - we have lost all sense of normal life - nope no life - we all must live in fear? What is that? Is that life? When shall we ask ourselves 'do I have to live under terrorism conditions' - I must do it? It is not the life we all were led to believe we would have. Srila Prabhupada says: "...The people are innocent, we have seen this everywhere...it is only...rascal leaders who have spoiled everything by fooling the people for their personal advantage..." [Letter to Amarendra 4/03/72] Also Prabhupada said: "...At the present moment these rulers are so powerful that by hook or by crook they capture the highest posts in government and harass countless numbers of people on the plea of national security or some emergency. Then again, one asura defeats another asura, but the public continues to suffer. Therefore the entire world is in a precarious condition..." [sB 10.3.21] "...This is a civilization where a blind man is guiding a few others or many other blind men. So what is this civilization? The leader, he is a rascal. He does not know what is the aim of life, and he has become leader. So many talking..." [bhagavatam lecture April 16, 1976] So of course that is a fact of life in America now - with their 'patriot act' - and if certain leaders there get their way - that'll be the fact of life everywhere! Today I hear Mr. Bush 'talking' about the hate and evil within the hearts of the rogue leaders [who killed and injured innocent people in today's attack] - but when will he see that hate and evil is seeded out from his own heart? We need to see the 'real leaders' at the executive head within this world force/create a proper scenario wherein these fascist rogue leaders [from ALL nations] have no theaters to 'play' in - no more global power for them by a collective decision - to cut them off. These point counter-point leaders will go on and on - we must all decide NOW that their relevance has been invalidated - by the saner section of humanity - any honest leader cannot stay with 'these' so-called 'government men'. The good leaders in our world may still want to rally around Bush and Co. and that is clearly - a mistake - and there is no doubt - what Krishna says is all important here: "And that action performed in ignorance and delusion without consideration of future bondage or consequences, which inflicts injury and is impractical, is said to be action in the mode of ignorance." [bG 18.25] What is it going to take for them to address the causes of this political terror? Of course - the head of the state should never fail in chasing an real enemy - but neither should they cultivate them by ill-dealing! In the Sri Ishopanishad text two - the cause is indirectly outlined: "Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong." So therein is the problem - 'one should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things' - and what does Srila Prabhupada say: "...In modern society there is always a great quarrel between the laborers and the capitalists. This quarrel has taken an international shape, and the world is in danger. Men face one another in enmity and snarl just like cats and dogs. Sri Ishopanishad cannot give advice to the cats and dogs, but it can deliver the message of Godhead to man through the bona fide acaryas (holy teachers). The human race should take the Vedic wisdom of Sri Ishopanishad and not quarrel over material possessions... There can be no peace if the communists or capitalists or any other party claims proprietorship over the resources of nature, which are entirely the property of the Lord. The capitalists cannot curb the communists simply by political maneuvering, nor can the communists defeat the capitalists simply by fighting for stolen bread. If they do not recognize the proprietorship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, all the property they claim to be their own is stolen. Consequently they will be liable to punishment by the laws of nature. Nuclear bombs are in the hands of both communists and capitalists, and if both do not recognize the proprietorship of the Supreme Lord, it is certain that these bombs will ultimately ruin both parties..." [iso mantra 2] Srila Prabhupada also says: "...There is no head. They are thinking simply arms wanted, defense, and fight amongst themselves. That’’s all. Everyone is thinking simply arms wanted. And what they will do with the arms? Fight between themselves, that’’s all..." [interview June 18, 1976] In historical context: "...Just like the atomic bomb. They are meant for creating disaster, that’’s all. What else they can do? And now everyone is having atomic weapon, just like India has now got. That means they are preparing, by nature’’s course they are preparing for war, and ““I put my atomic bomb on your head, and you put on my head. You die, I die, that’’s all.”” They simply die. Now what was the result of the disastrous war twice? The whole European nations ruined. They are not no more rich. I saw in Paris, in Germany. They are not as rich as the Americans. Because American inland, there was no such big war, so their opulence is existing, but on account of these two wars, British completely finished. Yes. British completely. It is now... Hitler wanted that...That was Hitler’’s declaration..." [conversation July 02, 1974] So do we all just watch and - the history will repeat itself again? Unchecked - it will be wars again - this time they will be global. Recall the point: 'Considering that their propaganda centers around a militated [and militarisation] teaching of an emerging ‘‘world government’’ - ‘‘the beast government’’ - which they say is [at this time] the ‘‘European Union’’ - declaring the E.U. - to be a so-called - ““satanic revived roman empire”” - it thus becomes a conflicted scenario - when we see the leaders in the U.S.A. ascribe to this theology.' Of course - since the inception of the republican - 'Strategic Defense Initiative' - Program was OVER twenty years ago - it necessitates the question - WHAT is the program’’s factual - technological implementation level - at this point? We might also ask whether this program has a planed abysmal surveillance system with energy-based weapons - a system able to target and strike any geographic point on the globe’’s surface? What if some of the hardware they’’ve been installing in space over the last twenty years actually became such a threat? Whatever the factual situation - who can argue - the long range potentials - are not good. Additionally - if this program is as they say to defend North America - and specifically the U.S. - from intercontinental ballistic missile strikes - then we must ask - just who is this ‘‘shield’’ supposed to protect ‘‘North America’’ from? People may be surprised to learn that it is an ill-perceived threat from the European Union - NOT the so-called Arab rogue leaders [who aren’’t able to send missile strikes over the ocean] that the ‘‘republicans’’ have been [and are] fortifying this space-based ‘‘shield’’ for! It isn’’t exactly being spurred-on by a fear of Asia’’s missile capabilities either. Just see - even the NAFTA was [and is] an attempted counteraction - to the economic alliances growing out of the European Union. All these point counter-point 'leaders' must soon understand - violent retaliations are not any good way of inducing reformations in each other. Sometimes if someone is slighted by these governments he'll simply be thinking - "Oh when shall a vote depose these rascals?" - and when they are unable see that happen - there enters all potential that international terrorism can become domestic - just see as an example - that evil slug - Timothy Mcvey and - the Oklahoma bombing - why did he do it? There are how many anti-government militias in the U.S. - all armed to the teeth? Isn't America's leaders setting up her people for domestic home spun terrorism - by harassing its citizens and - by inducing them into the 'expensive' [to the tax payer] - state of terror - in which they now live? [it would seem the only choice in the next presidential election for America - is Nader - yes - RALPH NADER for PRESIDENT in 2008! I think that the 'democratic party' under the Clintons has become a ill-version of 'republican light' - so - the best choice was and will be RALPH NADER - if only the world could vote for their next President - given that we all live in America's present cold dark shadow.] As noted - the Israeli/Palestinian conflict must soon be resolved and - who can deny that Bush and Co. achieved nothing but ignominy through this loutish regime change in Iraq? When shall it be acknowledged that they have simply spoiled everything? Expectations of violence free settlements to the political strife in the middle east - are now abjectly marginalized. Leading to the invasion - Bush and Co. interfered with the members within the U.N. Security Council - yes - when they trounced everyone’’s faith in global diplomacy - by deceiving the U.N. Security Council. Of course - by ‘‘spying’’ [wiretaps] on the offices of the [then] member nations of the Security Council - please don’’t forget that this ‘‘spying’’ did go on and is it still going on? [why are they even spying on ordinary people like me and you?] It’’s an ill-program of machinations - ‘‘spying’’ that thus compromises the sovereignty of other leaders - leaders that they [were] are allegedly hoping to count on. Who can consequently deny that they were actually seeding deep levels of distrust - and what shall be the result for the U.N.? Shall it become like the former League of Nations? They have usurped global resolve - and are directing it as they see fit - and they opt out of the international criminal court - and they opt out of so much more - all that stands in the way to becoming a unilateral global director... So what do we do? Do the decent leaders let it all go on? Of course - in speaking to the need for the ‘‘support’’ that Bush is seeking - one does not ask for international support and then concoct nearly everyone into a being a suspect. His comments - 'if you’’re not with us you’’re with the terrorists' - say it all. Invading Iraq wasn’’t about protecting America. One cannot overstate the resultant level of Iraqi suffering - and we are not yet sure of the consequential outcomes for Iraq - nor ultimately - the world. Their actions demonstrate that the estimation of the Bush administration is that the "U.N." is now - "a useless debating club" and - "irrelevant" [their past words!] - what hope can there be for the "U.N." and those Nations who do honor it? When shall the more ethical members of the U.N. see the faltering capacity for him - and millions like him - to renounce this proclivity/propaganda - which groups like his embrace? The fact is - it was the vast support of the U.S. evangelical movements which 'installed' him in the post of president in the last election and - everyone knows that he [with help] hoodwinked his way to the post in the first election! He doesn't get a third term - or shall he amend that as well? [there has been a bill put forward] Of course his party may again 'capture' the Whitehouse in 2008? So while he and his party are now seemingly connecting with the E.U. and its leaders - now that they are in power they are seeding the next global war - with their nemesis EUROPE or their - 'satanic revived roman empire' - and the conflict will be born out of the middle east peace process. So as our world [soon?] embarks upon the historic resolution of the Occupation of the Palestinians - good leaders - MUST be aware of these points about the calculative and reactive nature of regimes - headed by leaders like Mr. Bush. Certainly - the leaders of the U.S. and the U.K. cannot be [in any fashion] participants to the brokering of this proper ‘‘Resolution’’. The U.K. - because of their particular past histories in the region [and present complicity in Iraq] and most specifically - in affecting the original 'Partition'. The U.S. - due to their past and current activities in the region - and the intimated issues surrounding Mr. Bush’’s views regarding a so-called ‘‘prophetic future’’ and thus - the future disposition of the middle east. All that is needed from these two nations in the final equation - is to remit Reparations. The global community is capable of fixing the problems manufactured by the colonial powers - outside their persistent intrusion and hindrances. Srila Prabhupada says: "This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains." [sB 1.17.28, purport] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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