The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[theist]

 

Like I said, days ago, the Christian theologians are not going to accept that Krishna is "God the Father".

 

 

As long as they accept that there is one Supreme God who cares if they Prefer to call God Allah or Jehovah? That is their business.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

[i posted this on arabia.com (a site that very sadly - is now gone) in July 2003]

 

I am re-poting this as it makes some interesting points...

 

http://forums.arabia.com/WebX?14@156.Iuunal3Bnxy.0@.1dea90d7!content=EN&page=1&sort=recent&view=expanded [old url]

 

 

"--'Hamas' and 'Islamic Jihad' and other smaller political [legitmate] 'groups' are Hearing the Historic - 'Call to Peace' - NO they are NOT '...ticking time bombs...regrouping...' - the embattled peoples are asking for clear requirements:

 

"...list of requirements of Israel, including that it stop all "acts of aggression" against Palestinians — including arrests and killings of accused militants and that it release all "political prisoners" and lift its travel restrictions on Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader..."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/28/international/middleeast/28CND-MIDE.html?ex=1057820289&ei=1&en=98dd3fb10e601741

 

It isn't that Israel wishes to never resolve this serious problem - I am sure they are most especially feeling evermore calculated over the last twenty two years - acting under the impetus of the U.S. based 'cash cult' - they are "set-up" - we can see they have been ill-led - [most recently by] Bush and Co. - now they can see the many generations of the 'group' [who have been] operating out of the U.S. State [no matter who is elected over the last 22 years - the U.S. has become a kind of 'home' to many of the dejected leaders forming the new world order state - leaders who may not want the changes they know are coming] - so we see that for a price the U.S. has been 'fixing' the U.N. process - interference leading to a lack of U.N. actions and/or reprisals on Israel for violations of so many resolutions in connection to the occupation - by this time - Israel must see 'who' has been thus engaging them in an corner not expected - nor desired....

 

Israel must NOT continue to ignore the present - 'Call to Peace' - because this "time" is the real deal - instead Israel MUST ignore Bush and Co. - otherwise everything may be lost... It is obvious to the world that Arab States do not now [never did] wish to eradicate the world's [re]New[ed] Jewish State - as it would've been a such different reality over the last 55 years - what's happening is - most especially since 1967 - the pain and frustration of these 'occupied peoples and their well-wishers' is at times sounding like that - but that isn't the case - without doubt there can be no real [full] formal acceptance of the RE'new'ED 'Jewish' State - by the Arab [or other] nations - until there is a FULL and independent Palestine.

 

We must look at this situation in the light of our history in north america - when the 'white man' first came here - there were 'red men' already here - white man tried to kill them off [when that failed] - they disrupted their 'system' with guns, booze and [some were fake] missionaries - and at last they created 'reserves'- where the 'occupied peoples' were deprived and forced to stay - these places were called - 'land settlements' - now let's look at our situation here today - there are still 'reserves' [most in poverty!] and yes - the 'occupied peoples' - so long ago - have had their - >'Right of Return'< - into this 'new' society - Now today we have many of these indigenous peoples [rightly] wanting their own 'original' State [in some form] 'here now' - because [for many] they have not seen as much success [as promised to them] through 'this' integration. ---- Thus the [canadian] government have created recent ideas of 'native self governance' etc., to deal with this - all so much complicity for governments [and peoples!] now and later...

 

[present note: without doubt this course is the best course for Canada - and - there are many success stories about self-government all through a unique integration of this important Right - into Canadian constitutional law - so my point was that - it's been a long and troubled path to reach this place - and that - the Palestinians and the Israelis - can avoid this path - altogether]

 

I ask the people of Palestine and Israel to think about this 'RIGHT OF RETURN' in this light - it isn't something that future generations are going to appreciate - one might even think that by taking so much territory over the last 36 years there is a potential that Israel - under extreme pressure from the U.S. - will thus calculate the exiles a 'right of return' into the 'jewish state' [under the guise of it being "a provisional palestinian state in training"] - THE RETURN SHALL BE INTO 'SELECT AREAS' TAKEN 36 YEARS AGO...

 

It will become a 'walled' - 'meager reserve' - "THERE" - no State of Palestine - for how many generations to come....

 

Logic says PALESTINE SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR "RIGHT OF RETURN" DEMANDS -- they can and should avoid so much hell to come and settle for the instant creation of a FULL and INDEPENDENT STATE...

 

We must immediately get on with the fact that a REAL end to this Occupation must come NOW ---- the State of Palestine has been too long 'stalled' over the Jerusalem issue.

 

We must face the reality that part of the 'Justice' here 'naturally demands' that Jerusalem is going to have be again a fully Israeli City.

 

This city is the Hebrew 'Spiritual Center' [or 'teather'] - indeed Muslims in particular can see why it is thus important to them - through comparison to their own 'Spiritual Center' - 'Mecca'.

 

Will this reality [of a change for jerusalem] be - 'need fully' concluded - "Honorably" and through - "Justice" - or "dishonorably" - through the so-called leaders of the World's 'singular' Superpower - cultivating a future 'need less' "Violence and Urban War"? There is the matter of the FULL justice to be fully rendered to the suffering Palestinians and the 'historic move' of the 'Dome and Alaqsa Mosque' to its new location - before the building of the third temple can begin.

 

ANYONE “clearing” [or even thinking of attempts to] the "Temple Mount" - of the ancient and Sacred “Dome of the Rock” [and compound] with a so-called 'Errant’ Rocket attack - [during an impending 'all-out' Urban War which will certainly one day soon break out in Jerusalem – ANYONE doing this will be punished EXTREME severe by KRISHNA [God has His 'ugly side' too - just test Him!?] He sees us in our world - in the throws of the Age of Quarrel - He sees that our world cannot afford any such activity - it is time NOW - Israel, Great Britain and America [the original 'Partners in Partition'] should 'rightly' and “instantly” pay out the Billions of Dollars needed to move the 'Dome of the Rock' and the adjoining Mosque Compound -- ‘Stone by Stone’; HERE IS THE CLINCHER -- to move them onto the “Judicious and Auspicious” border of Jordan – ‘there’ the Palestinian peoples must be - “Empowered by the World Community” [and (in real time) financed by Israel, Great Britain and America - with 'other' international help] to create a NEW ‘State of the Art Capital City’ - THIS must be done for the Palestinians - they must now get their deserved New State.

 

A State whose “borders” must NOT be marginalized into “a few miles” or into a “city-state”.

 

Thus - if old Jerusalem can EVER see her new 'third' Temple – then an offering of 'this' honorable “move” is Israel's FIRST step – if it be a so-called ‘Errant’ Rocket [with yet more peoples displaced in a future "Transfer"] which gets their Temple “building process” underway [all this recent rocket attack activity directed at Hamas - could look like a scene leading to an eventual errant one or two...?] -- then the laws of material nature and common sense logic dictate sure results: NO amount of Diplomacy or Political Maneuvering shall promote “Resolution” - what to speak of “Peace” and “Security” FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

 

In 'our' ever so 'little' world we have now seen Bush and Co. abuse the U.N. - at one point [for once it was admitted!] they were employing counter intelligence personal and who knows what technologies to needlessly spy on their own allies [to calculate them]!

 

We will see escalated fighting continue - if there are any more assassination attempts by the Likud "party" on the Hamas "party" - will such very stupid moves restore hope? - Israel cannot go on and on like this - they have come to the cross roads - Krishna shall show 'them' the way to peace too - if they seek it. -

 

If they ignore this - how long then before there isn't enough resolve in anyone to permit a resolution of this 5+ decades long Palestinian Occupation without a Bush and Co. 'seeded' global chaos? [is 'that' at the heart of Bush and Co.'s plan - or is it simply a time delayed method to another 'darker' plan?]

 

Time to expand this vague "road map" to Palestinian Statehood - and Global Peace! Other issues and Nations need to be included!

 

When these 'historic decisions' - to bring the two 'equal' States into Secure and Peaceful co-existence are concluded [and it'll be sooner than they think!] - the 'decision makers' must present a clear Plan to these parties - a plan which includes a FULL CUT AWAY from each other - there must be TWO "Independent" States [not that one is 'provisional' and the other is not] - with a 50/50 - 'non fragmented' - allocation of the territories [***minus the city of Jerusalem***] - a 50/50 share in water/sea ports and ALL other natural resources - a 60/40 [israel gets 60%] share of existing national/international market and investment segments/sectors [without this can they have any real economy - they would've had 'that' and more by now - had there not been the [cash cult] 'games' over all these years?] - the new Palestinian currency trades on instant 'par' with Israel's. ***Palestine must receive [without debt] as 'instantly' as possible - a comprehensive new "State of the Art" Capital City*** - and proper infrastructure - with international assistance to create full [supporting] Urban and Rural Communities - for two plus million exiles [in addition to the possibility of one to three million living within their Capital] - there must be FULL 'Reparations' in ALL Respects...

 

NO MORE anyone trying to KILL anyone to make things happen [or not happen]! [last part edited cause Acts10 was fixated on it] ---- Is the State of Israel ready to see the - "Arm of the Lord"..."

 

Your Servant,

 

Bhakta Don Muntean

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

No man has seen the planets in the distant galaxies; therefore they are formless.

 

Reply:

 

That is very nice!

 

YS,

[Guest guest]

where did we go wrong we didn't realize.

why so many replies to the querry of satan myth arn't Vaisnavas interested in other esoteric topics. lets stay on topic KALI can be the satan you refer to take a deep look inside.

[Guest guest]

wow christ would be unhappy

they fought for centuries for the land and today after a couple of weeks they have been moved away by force of politics just see

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

lets stay on topic KALI can be the satan you refer to take a deep look inside.

 

Reply:

 

Yes personality of Kali would seem to fit the bill where a comparison to the fictional satan is concerned.

 

I will try later to post a more complete comparison - indeed another comparison that is good is hiranyakasipu to the antichrist - surely if he were here in today's world that is what they would call him!

 

Quote:

 

where did we go wrong we didn't realize. why so many replies to the querry of satan myth arn't Vaisnavas interested in other esoteric topics

 

Reply:

 

What do you mean?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

wow christ would be unhappy

they fought for centuries for the land and today after a couple of weeks they have been moved away by force of politics just see

 

Reply:

 

Just see - the Lord commanded the Hebrews that they should not oppress strangers or non-Jews in their lands see - Exodus 12.49 - 22.21 – 23.9 - Leviticus 19.33-34 – 25.35 - Deuteronomy 10.18-19 – 23.7 – 24.17 – 27.19.

 

That message - of course - is not acknowledged by these evangelical’s – as it is esteemed as a - “heretical abomination".

 

History evidences that when King Ahab and Queen Jezebel - unjustly expropriated the vineyards of Naboth - the prophet Elijah - publicly denounced the king and queen for this inequitable act [see 1 Kings 21.17-24] Jehu cited this ‘official action’ of the government of Judea - against Naboth as justification for overthrowing ‘that’ government [see 2 Kings 9.25-26].

 

But in today’s world - when the Israeli government expropriated too much lands and properties of Palestinians - without recompense – these preachers told you to - look the other way and - say 'nothing' about it.

 

In Jeremiah 27.1-5 - the prophet Jeremiah demonstrated – he protested and picketed a public meeting of the government of Judah and - representatives of Edom Moab Ammon Tyre and Sidon.

 

The great prophet Jeremiah was protesting the foreign policy of Judah!

 

In Jeremiah 27.6-17 - the prophet advocated the surrender of Israel's territory to the King of Babylon, in return for peace – today - we would call it "land for peace."

 

But today – hawkish neo-conservative televangelists have stigmatized the real path to peace which certainly does hinder on - "land for peace".

 

They condemn anyone who even suggests this – saying without logical reasons that the “land for peace” program is unthinkable – no matter the reason whatsoever.

 

These ‘culture vulture’ preachers - threaten God's wrath against 'anyone' who would support such a thing.

 

Purportedly - it is better for these ‘Cousins in Abraham’ - to keep on killing each other over this land - as these holier-than-thou war profiteers [and irreligionists] collect cash from the sale of their Armageddon materials.

 

You are wrong – ‘Christ’ - would not be unhappy with this disengagement.

 

Jesus would certainly follow with the noted position of Jeremiah – as noted in the hereinbefore outlined well known history. Just see…

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Mr. Sharon is on the right course - he is serious about peace and he is serious about seeing real justice for the Palestinian's - without a doubt - he IS on the right course.

 

This disengagement plan must be 'expanded to all other settlements'? There are some 100 west bank settlements in question?

 

Here is an outline of another 'workable' border plan to re-settle the various peoples.

 

First it must be noted - when the settlements are vacated - they must not be razed to the ground - unless the new occupants desire it so. It is not a good procedure to do that.

 

So where does everyone re-settle in this plan?

 

Well in this plan - as Jerusalem becomes a fully Israeli city - with an expansion to the east – [so of course no east west division] and - with the move of the Dome of the Rock etc., to the new site - which could be the new capital of the Palestinians [to be constructed - or trade in peace an existing city like Tel Aviv?] - this 'new' modern city should be able to PROPERLY service 2-3 million people - with PROPER rural and other urban developments - for two to three million more citizens - with this - the 'right of return' issue - should be dropped.

 

Part of this plan has to include a desalination plant on the new Palestinian coastline – to supply water to the arid areas that shall make up part of their territory. With this plant on the Mediterranean Sea - there would thus be no issue of water – there would be enough to be piped to new rural and urban developments – maybe enough to sell too. Without a comprehensive plan for this water - such a plan cannot succeed.

 

Now - the peoples displaced from the various settlements [and the ‘city to be traded’ if that is the course chosen] should be moved to an - 'expanded' - Jerusalem and re-settled PROPERLY there.

 

Who cannot be happy with this re-settlement plan - if this is done PROPERLY - it would be the fairest adjustment to the present and long term needs of this matter?

 

Of course - this is only a - 'basic outline'...

 

Here is a simple map I came up with - I am sure that Jordan would donate that small piece of land [to the distant south of Petra] - to this cause of Peace.

 

As I said - this is a ‘simple map’ [made by a simple onlooker] - to show what new borders could look like - workable [non-fragmented] borders - even along the coast – the new borderlines can be narrow and close - but still be workable - we would see more security for both sides with this plan/map:

 

 

It's time for the World to solve 'this' problem - as this is the 'central issue' causing middle-east [and Global] discord - the proper resolution must not be delayed any further.

 

No more 'divertive invasions' in the region.

 

No more regional 'machinations' by far away extremist preachers.

 

If there is ever to be enough resolve and resources - to conclude this matter justly - it certainly is now...

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

In the news...

 

"...Labor leader Jens Stoltenberg, who is seeking to form a new government after winning this week's national election, said he informed U.S. President George W. Bush of the Norwegian position during a telephone conversation late Thursday.

 

"We made it clear that Norway should not have officers in Iraq..." http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=18567

 

Soon all that'll be there are - the 'Brits' and the 'Yanks'...

 

How much more isolation for their people are they going to cultivate?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"Syria: A New Iraq in the Making " http://www.antiwar.com/ips/biedermann.php?articleid=7301

 

Well here we are on that door-step again!

 

Shall the world allow these leaders to continue to machinate?

 

These self appointed unilateral ‘police’ clearly wish to induce the Middle East region and - the world – much deeper into chaos and unrest. [because not even they could be so stupid as to think it's the right approach?]

 

If the leaders of Israel have any intelligence and foresight – they will not wait and see what comes of it.

 

As it is - Syria isn’t the biggest threat to the future of Israel – it’s these noted republicans and their evangelical lobby groups that are the greatest threat.

 

I am in no fashion saying that I approve of the attitudes of the leader of Syria – but the leader of America is no better.

 

We must not forget that the republicans veiled their regime change in Iraq under a U.N. instrument only intended to destroy weapons of mass destruction – so they used the U.N. and thus lied!

 

So what lies are the republican’s telling to the leaders of Israel - to placate their cautious apprehension in attacking their neighbor?

 

Syria’s attitude problems need to be dealt with – but save and except in retaliation for an ill-attack – any first strike on them - would naturally imperial the chances for peace in the entire region.

 

Syria - like all the nations in the middle east - are going to have to accept Israel - in good faith - as Israel makes good on the peace process and - if everything is on the up-and-up – and - there are no baiting programs by motivated outsiders like - 'the republicans' – I don’t think the leaders of Israel will have anything to worry about.

 

Mr. Sharon better send these 'outsiders' packing and soon!

 

What was that point in my post on the new map:

 

“It's time for the World to solve 'this' problem [israel/Palestine] - as this is the 'central issue' causing middle-east [and Global] discord - the proper resolution must not be delayed any further.

 

No more 'divertive invasions' in the region.

 

No more regional 'machinations' by far away extremist preachers.”

 

Keep in mind that the so-called prophetic scenario preached by this maledicted Armageddon Cult has as part of the plot - a point when 'all the nations of the earth march on Israel' to attack!

 

In the present course – the anti-Semitic Armageddon Cult will see to it that this happens!

 

Hasn’t Mother Nature sufficiently instructed the leaders of America with the Katrina nightmare?

 

If there was any such point to that sad devastation – it should be to tell America’s leaders that they have enough to worry about at home.

 

Is America a free and fair place? Has poverty been eliminated? Have violent crimes been reduced? Has gun crime been reduced? NO it grows!

 

We are seeing America - in the greatest mess ever!

 

Who is going to fix this mess?

 

They are losing as much - if not more - than everyone else – as their leaders polarize the whole of the world against them – for how many decades?

 

We need to pray for the leaders everywhere – men and women who need the Spirit of God to fall upon them!

 

They need to SEE that if they try to cancel each other out – they'll cancel out everything.

 

They need to rally to the real emergency and - get rid of their selfish egos. They need to cooperate not compete.

 

God will damn them if they continue on this path?!

 

They need to see that the current socio-economic arrangements are burning out the planet and too quickly.

 

Exponential growth [greed] means exponentially irreparable damages.

 

They must see that if life is to go on and - there is to be any future – then changes must be made – leave them off to another generation and - you’ll leave off the future too.

 

How long before all of humanity is living in a quarrel-plagued world - in less than third world conditions?

 

How long? Ten years? At most - twenty-five!

 

This generation – my generation - are going to be senior citizens - in that hell?

 

---------------------------

 

Please Lord Chaitanya – ‘o patita pavana’ - you who are ‘the savior of the most fallen’ – please Lord - help these leaders in all the nations – help them to see that they need to change!

 

Time to become fair – time to become just – time to end their hellish mentalities.

 

Please Lord Gauranga - help the leaders to activate a balancing - from the most insignificant injustice within their own states up on to the worst – if they all do this then all global unrest will automatically cease.

 

All life depends on you Lord – you are the Preserver!

Please Lord - you are an Unlimited Ocean of Mercy and - this Age of Quarrel has indeed encroached much further into your sankirtan-lila - than you can permit – please Lord - Save this World!

 

Jai Narasinghadeva!

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

As noted through the map - part of the success of any real plan to peace - has to thus see the 'Golan Heights' returned to Syria.

 

The annex was for security purposes – however - it is a pretext to attack and thus more insecurity – that fact must be seen.

 

If there is to be any issue in the post-resolution future with the Syria/Israel border – there will be U.N. guards to take care of it – as it should’ve been all along…

[theist]

I wouldn't even think of giving the Syrians the heights back if I was Israel. Not a thought.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Hari Bol theist!

 

Well at some point it's going to have to happen - how can this annex promote peace?

 

Shouldn't the U.N. be patrolling this border to ensure mutual respect of that border?

 

How can this present arrangement be conducive to lasting peace?

 

Does the annex really become part of Israel at some point? That is how Syria views the annex?

 

In any case – to give it up tomorrow may not be prudent – but - it’ll have to be soon – to calculate on keeping the situation as is – is not so good.

 

Here are two nice ancient Rabbinical Proverbs that sort of reflect the issue:

 

The cat and the rat make peace over a carcass.

 

Avoid wrath and thou wilt avoid sin; avoid intemperance and thou wilt not provoke Providence.

 

The question here is - under what circumstances do we see this change?

 

YS,

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Hari Bol Guest!

 

I forgot to thank you for your nice words – it is nice to see that there are others who get the point – yes indeed!

 

Your servant,

 

BDM

 

[Guest guest]

gee whiz Jesus would be doing such ? on whose authority. It is commen academia The Jesus of Nazareth history speaks of is Nazerine...not Jew as is thought, as well upon baptism by John of the Essenes, Lord Jesus did not change nationality nor faith nor join political party. So on whose authority Nazerine...Essene...???? Do you really believe in expropriation of lands to suit greed or the displacement of people from homes would be something Jesus would support.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

gee whiz Jesus would be doing such ? on whose authority.

 

Reply:

 

On scriptural authority – Jesus would protest the expropriation of lands – no matter who does it – especially if there is any population displaced. Jesus would protest – and he would follow in the footsteps of Elijah and Jeremiah – as noted.

 

Quote:

 

It is commen academia The Jesus of Nazareth history speaks of is Nazerine...not Jew as is thought,

 

Reply:

 

Jesus was a Hebrew – I do not know what non-sense you are advancing here.

 

Quote:

 

as well upon baptism by John of the Essenes, Lord Jesus did not change nationality nor faith nor join political party.

 

Reply:

 

Who said he did?

 

Quote:

 

So on whose authority Nazerine...Essene...????

 

Reply:

 

On whose authority did the two noted prophets protest their contemporary leaders?

 

On scriptural authority – the way that anyone calling himself a man of God would have to do to make any such case.

 

Jesus often quoted the scriptures to either illustrate his point – or to prove it.

 

Quote:

 

Do you really believe in expropriation of lands to suit greed or the displacement of people from homes would be something Jesus would support.

 

Reply:

 

If you think that then you cannot read very well – due to laziness – or due to inability – you should re-read this thread more carefully – you’ll have your simple answer – ‘no’.

 

So who are you and - what is your point?

 

BDM

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

The Jesus of Nazareth history speaks of is Nazerine...not Jew as is thought

 

Reply:

 

That makes no sense as in - it’s nonsense. Isn’t Nazareth a part of Judea? [this ‘town’ was obscure and considered lowly and though it's not mentioned in the Hebrew texts - it was there in Judea]

 

Why do you claim Jesus wasn’t a Judean?

 

That makes me question your attitudes toward Hebrews.

 

For example – there is an infamous group of freaks called - what is it called – ‘the Church of Jesus Christ Christian Aryan Nation’ – a nazi white-supremacist group.

 

I [first and last] encountered these freaks in about 1990 – in Edmonton Alberta – I heard on radio that their American leader was to attend to Edmonton – for some rally – which they held downtown on Jasper Avenue – at the Park [i think it’s called beaver hills park].

 

So I already knew that 'skinheads' were demons and freaks - and from what I heard them say on radio – I had some questions – questions about their very bent message – and I couldn’t make it onto the call-in show – so I decided to attend the rally.

 

Some of the questions were about the point of Jesus. I asked why they hate Jews and not Jesus – so long end of it - they claimed Jesus was not a Jew – how absurd is that?!

 

I took along my Bhagavad-Gita and - I showed them that they had no right to use the word ‘aryan’ – as that word is a Sanskrit word - meaning ‘civilized’ – which they were obviously not.

 

They tried to preach their anti-semitic bunk to me and I laughed at them.

 

They wanted to send me literature – I agreed to that so I could have a better profile of these idiots – though later I realized that I shouldn’t have given these hate mongers my address – they kept sending hate propaganda – not just one mail out – I even contacted them and told them to not send anymore – but that didn’t sop it – it stopped by my moving from that residential address.

 

So in any case – when I read your point about Jesus – it made this memory surface – I wonder why…

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

IN THE NEWS:

 

(AP) - A pickup truck filled with masked militants and homemade rockets blew up in the middle of a Hamas rally, causing mass panic and killing 15 Palestinians and wounding 80 others.

 

The blast, apparently caused by the mishandling of explosives, brought a terrified end to one of the last victory rallies by armed militants celebrating Israel’s Gaza pullout before an agreement not to publicly parade weapons is to take effect Saturday night.

 

Israel, which denied any involvement in the blast, launched air strikes early Saturday on what the army called Hamas weapons facilities. Three people were lightly injured in the strikes, the first such attacks since Israel's pullout.

 

[…]

 

Witnesses said many children were among the dead and wounded. Hamas said six of its militants were among those killed, including Jihad Shaleal, the head of the military wing in Jebaliya.

 

Hamas blamed the blast on Israel, but the Israeli military denied any connection and Palestinian security officials said it was an accident…

 

http://news./s/cpress/20050924/ca_pr_on_wo/israel_palestinians

 

Whatever it is that the immediate cause was – the underlying impetus to all these losses is the continued lack of respect between the sides.

 

Just prior to the battle of kurukshetra [and this present age of quarrel] - we are told in the great Epic Mahabharata that Ghandharvi [the wife of the blind king] - well she says that - when one prefers his own children to those of another – then calamitous war is near.

 

Just see her proper mood.

 

When I see news footage and see these militant marches – with children in tow – it is disturbing – on too many levels.

 

These groups have had an abrupt approach - one that isn’t useful to anyone – it is symptomatic of powerful frustrations – not organized resistance.

 

It is time for them to give up on that approach – and make this thing work – otherwise they’ll just always be in a graveyard consciousness.

 

There is a certain fact of life that is to be understood by one and all:

 

“…This is injustice. How can you gain justice by yourself doing injustice?…” [srila Prabhupada]

 

If we are in need of justice – then how can we gain justice by doing some unjust act?

 

It’s that simple – their tit for tat must stop here – as noted in this string before - the whole issue is being calculated by ‘outsiders’ who care little for either party – they are simply waiting until they can fully usurp the two parties and - their conflict is their mutual trap.

 

They better forget the ‘outsiders’ and all this graveyard activity – leave the past and move ahead with something new – decide that ‘enough time’ has been spent mourning and fighting – that to really honor those lost - is to see that real peace emerges - to be unbroken.

I pray to Lord Krishna that these various factions realize the facts soon!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Here is a picture of my good friend [God Bless Him!] - this picture was taken in 1953 - not long after his Taking the Yoke of the Lord - [this picture was colored by me]

 

This First Class Servant of God - loves and accepts everyone – and most especially those who love God – it matters not if their faith background is different than his.

 

In all the faiths there are advanced souls like my friend – we need to follow in their footsteps – no matter the particular semantics of our faiths!

 

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

“…The Israeli offensive was triggered by a rocket barrage launched by Gaza militants at Israel, including the border town of Sderot, over the weekend. Since then, militant groups said they would halt attacks and renewed their commitment to a seven-month-old truce, but Israel said it would press ahead with the campaign…”

 

http://news./s/cpress/20050928/ca_pr_on_wo/israel_palestinians

 

Well it looks like this tit for tat - goes on.

 

As hard as it might be for the parties to understand – they are really only setting themselves up for the noted ‘outsiders’ to come in and usurp them and their so-called peace process.

 

These machinations have a providential feedback loop and - their 'right-wing' architects have to see that they cannot prevail in the present course – that that ‘loss’ to come - is ‘loss’ for - everyone - including them of course.

 

Each day in this conflict the frustrations of both parties swell and flash – they are experiencing the tossing and throwing of the material energy in it’s most extremes of point and counter-point movements – God will it that every one of these unfortunate souls must stop and think – think how they have mutually created a scenario of instant karma – instant reactions - wherein everyone who targets - is going to be targeted by another – and too often - it’s the innocent loved ones of the various factions who suffer.

 

Please won’t you all just give a Mother’s suffering a break – better yet – bring it to an end – time to see their smiles and hear them laughing?

 

How much simpler can it be stated:

 

All these point counter-point 'leaders' must NOW understand - violent retaliations are not any good way of inducing reformations in each other.

 

We all have a responsibility to FULLY UNDERSTAND this instruction from Srila Prabhupada:

 

"...This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains..." [shrimad Bhagavatam 1.17.28, purport]

 

As noted in this thread:

 

“…Our world is now too surcharged with the qualities of passion and ignorance - and in the present age - there is quarrel over trivial matters - what to speak of actually 'provoking' people!

 

For the evil of terrorist attacks there are NO excuses - but - there are causes - and - we hardly hear a mention from the western leaders about these real causes.

 

Of course - some of these leaders - who are fuel to these causes - have no desire to see the baiting stop. No the point and counter-point - is calculated.

 

[…]

 

So while he and his party are now seemingly connecting with the E.U. and its leaders - now that they are in power they are seeding the next global war - with their nemesis EUROPE or their - 'satanic revived roman empire' - and the conflict will be born out of the middle east peace process…”

 

When are the real leaders going to step forward and shut down all the theaters of terror – by resolving these cultivated problems...

 

When are the good peoples of the Earth going to collectively demand this of the real leaders...

 

When shall everyone see that the present ill-program is to force everyone to become fully surrendered to the program - whipped into submission throgh quarrel and discord...

 

When shall everyone see that there is no pleasure nor peace in a round trip journey - to nowhere...?

 

The leaders of Israel have to move forward with a proper and complete resolution - and NOW - they have to understand this:

 

All these point counter-point 'leaders' must NOW understand - violent retaliations are not any good way of inducing reformations in each other.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

“…“…Hamas is expected to make a strong showing in the...local elections to be held in more than 100 towns and villages Thursday.…”.…”

 

http://news./s/cpress/20050928/ca_pr_on_wo/israel_palestinians

 

So Thursday came and went and - here is the result:

 

“JERUSALEM (AP) - Final results Friday showed the ruling Fatah party winning 54 per cent of the vote in local Palestininian elections, compared to 26 per cent for the rival Hamas group...”

 

So that was an alarmist statement by an Israeli official – and it certainly should be noted that the group Hamas should take it upon themselves to stop the various other militants from breaking the truce.

 

Furthermore - violence is a complete disgrace to honor especially during a peace process

 

Without doubt if there is to be peace for everyone – this has to happen – Hamas must care about this peace process - at the end of the day - there is evidence to suggest that they do.

 

This conflict can and should be resolved by the Israelis and the Palestinians – the various groups of consequence to the process must have a voice and a responsibility in the process – the violence seems to not be so much the official actions of these groups as much as it is individuals who are acting independently of their leadership – hate and violence are not a path to anything - but failure and a hell.

 

The mass of the Palestinians are expressing a desire to see prudence and justice in this process – not the ‘tossing and throwing’ - the mass of Israelis are expressing a desire to see prudence and justice in this process – not the ‘tossing and throwing’ – somewhere in the middle they must find this their common desire and need.

 

I pray to the Lord that the leaders of the two parties are opened up to real cooperation – they are to go from being adversarial to neighborly – they can and must do this without the interference of anyone – there mustn’t be any enforced resolutions – not even from the U.N. – if the peace is to work it must come from within…

 

Without doubt comments like this:

 

"Hamas is running on the platform of terror and murder of Israeli civilians," said …an official in Israeli Prime Minister Arial Sharon’s office. "Would anyone in the United States allow al-Qaida to run in elections?"

 

http://news./s/cpress/20050928/ca_pr_on_wo/israel_palestinians

 

That comparison - while it may have some emotional justification – it also has no basis.

 

Both sides may have emotional justifications for their outbursts of foolish commentary – but they have to see that the facts in real life have little to do with that emotional position – because ones opposites usually care little about their opposites feelings. A reality that must change here!

 

There is no doubt that the idea of ‘al-Qaida’ running in any election in America is less than moot – to say the least!

 

In a sense one could see the Hamas group - as a sort of ‘freedom fighters’ for their people and thus - they may have to represent a segment of the Palestinian population’s - vox populi – so to compare and then state that ‘al-Qaida’ could thus run in an American election - under a similar capacity - is simply nonsense – a joke.

‘Freedom fighters’ – hey - ain’t that what the republican’s called the leaders of ‘al-Qaida’ during the 1980’s - when ‘they’ engaged them against the U.S.S.R?

 

Again – this sort of ‘commentary’ isn’t at all constructive - to the ends and goals - both parties really need….

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

“…The illusory energy has two phases of existence, namely the covering influence and the throwing influence. By the throwing influence the illusory energy throws the living entities into the darkness of ignorance, and by the covering influence she covers the eyes of men with a poor fund of knowledge…” [sB 2.9.34, purport]

 

So in this conflict we see that the material energy is covering the awareness and intelligence of the parties – as they are thrown into the present cyclic pattern of retaliations and reactions.

 

Naturally - due to this karmic or reactive arrangement - it is very difficult and - even near to impossible - for these parties to either empathize or identify with each other – they simply function as - opposites – indeed - they seem to be stuck in passionate defense of their ill-muscle flexing that - with ignorance - they cheat themselves with each inappropriate action/reaction directed toward each other.

 

They wrongly identify with their own justifications of the violent reactions - as opposed to rejecting such justifications - irrespective of the circumstances.

 

They do not see that the material energy is cheating them – as they expend all their time and energy on the conflict – and not a moment otherwise.

 

The cyclic trend is loping shorter each time – meaning the time between action and reaction is almost instant – the parties do not give themselves a moment to think of this pattern nor the reality of their running such endless circles. Each time the material energy throws the parties – they are thrown - further and harder.

 

In fact this ‘logistic’ is true of all the major conflicts in today’s world – point and counter-point leaders thus engaged see their chaotic positions as a proper position rather than a dysfunctional. They need our help – again and again history will repeat – age of quarrel history – unless each person takes some responsibility to quell violent political conflict.

 

As Srila Prabhupada says:

 

"...This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains..." [srimad Bhagavatam 1.17.28, purport]

 

That instruction is very practical and each of us in this world has a responsibility to see to this instruction – this is common sense – even if one does not believe in the Age of Quarrel – one cannot fail to see the logic in the advice:

 

...'Do not sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of quarrel'...

 

It must be noted that the first group of persons that he is addressing are the ‘leaders of society’ – they have the most responsibility in this connection.

 

Next he mentions ‘the executive heads’ – they too have a major responsibility to discourage political quarrel – at any cost. Meaning that they do not aspire to keep profits at the expense of peace and order.

 

Of course he admonishes the servants of God with the most responsibility [to encourage and guide the leaders] – ‘or above all the devotees of the Lord’ – so there it is – we ALL have a responsibility - to do our part in staving-off the reactions of this Age of Quarrel.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

“…<big>Just like at the present moment the politicians, as soon as they see that they cannot manage things, in the country there is confusion, they declare some war so that the whole attention may be turned that side, and there will be no agitation of the internal dissatisfaction</big>. This is diplomacy. This is diplomacy. We have seen it in Pakistan. As soon as they cannot rule over, they cannot, but they (indistinct), “Oh, the Hindus are our enemy. Kashmir, he has taken.” Attention is diverted and they declare war, and again become defeated. So this kind of war is not required. <big>This kind of war is not required</big> [sB 1.15.25-26, lecture, 1973]

 

"Although the demons who take possession of the government are dressed like men of government, they do not know the duty of the government. Consequently, by the arrangement of God, such demons, who possess great military strength, fight with one another, and thus the great burden of demons on the surface of the earth is reduced. The demons increase their military power by the will of the Supreme, so that their numbers will be diminished and the devotees will have a chance to advance in Krsna consciousness.” [sB 9.24.29]

 

It must be understood that the conflicts in today’s world are more like the first quote and not like the second.

 

We cannot pin the nasty wars within this present hate filled quarrel plagued world - on God.

 

In today’s world - hate seems too often to be the center of too many groups and their message. Hate messages have even reared a polarizing appearance here in this thread.

 

I hope that it is seen that the message that I am posting is not hate based – not even the critical remarks about this one or that one – I do not hate these groups and their followers – I rather see them as misguided and afraid – they too are suffering in the age of quarrel and they feel threatened – but due to the fact that they are in the deepest ignorance - all their reactions to their frustrations are violent and destructive.

 

The more people spread hate and prejudice – the more they themselves shall become isolated and hated. That is the cause of their so-called plight – not that races or religions are the cause of their ills.

 

I note the one example given here of the evangelicals [and - their misguided hate] - not being representative of true Christianity.

 

Indeed - we have even read some misguided hate postings from so-called 'Krishna Devotees' on this thread.

 

Cannot anyone [like the leaders!] imagine what a full-blown all-out kali yuga – or Age of Quarrel would be like - who wants to live in that world?

 

Before kali yuga – war was only to be fought by soldiers on battlefields – not that there was some willy-nilly factional fighting - anywhere and everywhere.

 

“…The king is fighting with king, and the soldiers are fighting with soldier. So when the king is killed, then the other party becomes victorious. That was the process of war, not that releasing atomic bomb from the sky and kill so many innocent persons. No, that is not war.” [bG 2.13, lecture, 1972]

 

That is the point – in today’s world they are fighting for the wrong purposes and - they are fighting without rules or regulations – it seems that they must exponentially out-do each others atrocities – indeed it’s becoming the sickest one-upmanship process one could imagine.

 

Who isn’t getting fed-up with this nonsense? What do we do with a world like this - where the majority becomes thus bent?

 

Without doubt as the populations of the globe become more and more desensitized and apathetic to the realities of this age of quarrel – the more likely God is to pullback the ‘constraints’ that protect us.

 

The only reason that God prevents complete hell on earth is for the good people – the purer people – the more debauched and hate motivated the populations become - the 'less' there is 'protecting' our world.

 

We know that 'war' cannot be entirely checked – but the fact is quarrel cannot – must not – be cultivated – neither by ill-dealing nor - by unfair and inequitable resources appropriations.

 

"...the head of the state should never fail in chasing an enemy..." [sB 1.12.22, purport]

 

Why shouldn't 'Heads of State' engage their peoples in turf wars?

 

All hate mongers and terrorists must be denied their theaters – and as Prabhupada notes – it’s the genuine leaders of society and the 'obligated' executive heads - with the greatest responsibility to see to the real balance of these things.

 

So on one point of this 'order' - we cannot miss the prolific use of propaganda by hate ALL mongers – here on the web and - on other medias – we can see that it is being ignored by governments – there seems to be little activity by leaders to present a proper answer to the ill-propaganda – instead they seem to ignore it – saying that they cannot infringe on rights – so whatever - they cannot remove the propaganda [that is fine] but - they can disseminate a slicker message of truth - instead we see shampoo and the big-mac advertised 2600 times a day!

 

“…...The process of illusory service to society, country and community is exactly the same everywhere; the same principle is applicable even to big national leaders. A national leader who is very great in serving his country is sometimes killed by his countrymen because of irregular service. In other words, one cannot satisfy his dependents by this illusory service, although one cannot get out of the service because servant is his constitutional position...” [sB 3.30.10, purport]

 

Is that the type of environment that the increasing number of irregular leaders are encouraging? History presents so many examples of this – and no respectable leader wishes to find themselves in such an environment - due of all things -to the noted apathy!

 

“…a leader, a society leader or a party leader or a club leader, there are leaders. Some are led by somebody, some are led by somebody. We don’t wish to discuss. But there is a leader. Without leader, nobody goes to hell, neither to heaven.… Some leader is following Stalin, somebody Hitler, some leader is following Gandhi, somebody’s following somebody, somebody. There must be some leader. But why not the supreme leader, who will never misguide you? He will give you actual path of happiness. Then you will become happy…” [bG 3.6-10, lecture, 1968]

 

So obviously for most anyone - there is no question of being leaderless – we all need them – however - where our leaders may take us – that is the question.

 

“…All these leaders, so-called rascal leaders, they are blind themselves. They do not know what is the aim of life, and they’re becoming leader. And the leader, blind leader, and the blind follower, they’re all going to hell. This is the position of the world……” [sB 2.1.7, lecture, 1974]

 

I think we can all make things better – we can get rid of all hate and prejudices – just as Krishna says:

 

“He is a perfect yogi who, by comparison to his own self, sees the true equality of all beings, both in their happiness and distress, O Arjuna!” [bG 6.32]

 

"Just like at the present moment the politicians, as soon as they see that they cannot manage things, in the country there is confusion, they declare some war so that the whole attention may be turned that side, and there will be no agitation of the internal dissatisfaction."

 

Isn' that exactly a part of what Bush and Co. have been doing?

 

Then we see these important points from Prabhupada:

 

"...At the present moment these rulers are so powerful that by hook or by crook they capture the highest posts in government and <big>harass countless numbers of people on the plea of national security or some emergency</big>. Then again, one asura defeats another asura, but the public continues to suffer. Therefore the entire world is in a precarious condition..." [sB 10.3.21, purport]

 

"...That is the cause of war: lord it over. Everyone is trying to lord it over. The whole economic situation. Everyone is trying to become “the lord of all I survey....”" [sB 1.1.2, lecture, 1971]

 

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Here is an example of further misdirected understandings:

 

“…As a last resort, they said, Israel itself would act unilaterally to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear arms.

 

Iran will not be deterred "by anything short of a threat of force," said Arieh Eldad, a member of Israel's right-wing National Union Party…”

 

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050929-114709-2065r.htm

 

What a misguided position! No nation has any right to side-step the U.N. and act unilaterally – this very idea that unless Washington does it – they will - is abject goading.

 

It must be noted; the speaker of this statement is from a right-wing party.

 

Who can deny that this is exactly what we’ve been discusing here?

 

How these right-wing leaders can ever expect to live in peace [in the region] – is a mystery to everyone and most especially - them.

 

This news story is a case in point about the point and counter-point conflicts that we are discussing.

 

Of course - in Washington - there is a right-wing government – one which these right-wing - ‘national union party’ members find to be sympathetic to their unabashed plans for needless conflict.

 

No one can deny that Iran's having nuclear weapons is a bad thing – but who can deny that Israel’s having them is also bad – then again - who can deny that anyone having them is a <big>bad</big> thing?

 

Why are these right-wingers ignoring the fact that the E.U. is monitoring the situation in Iran – of course [the current leaders in] Washington is looking to cultivate a future war with the E.U. and - this war will be connected to the Middle East and its conflicts.

 

I sure hope that the people in Iran are not going to permit their leaders to continue in their point and counter-point interactions with the west.

 

These various Arab nations in the middle east have to understand that they are cheating themselves by engaging in these conflicts – and they must do what they can to convince the world that any pre-emptive strikes would be unnecessary.

 

I think that I heard that most of the population in Iran is youth – these youth are at a crossroads position with the future of their nation – many of these youth must be asking themselves if they want to follow the past course of conflict.

 

Who can deny that – if they are attacked – they may decide to renew their hate for their attackers and - the west?

 

To hear a diplomat say that diplomacy doesn’t work - is disconcerting – to see that the diplomat encourages unilateral military action in the next breath - says what?

 

I thank God that this 'national union party' - isn’t in control of the Knesset!

 

As noted - our world is now too surcharged with the qualities of passion and ignorance - and in the present age - there is quarrel over trivial matters - what to speak of actually 'provoking' people!

 

When shall everyone see that there is no pleasure nor peace in a round trip journey - to nowhere...?

 

I again mention that good Talmud quote:

 

The cat and the rat make peace over a carcass

 

What does that mean here?

 

It means that if they continue like this - they shall not be making peace with each other - [over the region and its issues] - but rather - the 'cats and the rats' shall 'make peace' and thus 'feast' on them and - the spoils of their loss...

 

In context:

 

The cat and the rat make peace over a carcass

 

Consider that one could see the cat and the rat - as the neo-cons and the evangelicals and - one could thus see the carcass - as the failed peace process...and of course - the peace they make would be what kind of - ill-calculation?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

The FBI defines international terrorism as "the unlawful use of force or violence commintted by a group or individual, who has some connection to a foreign power or whose activities transcend national boundries, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."

 

Reply:

 

Then the FBI better go and have a serious talk with the leaders in Washington - as their program is just that:

 

"the unlawful use of force or violence commintted by a group or individual, who has some connection to a foreign power or whose activities transcend national boundries, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."

 

...In short, the Bush administration is planning to make the US the first country in history to initiate war with nuclear weapons. The Pentagon document, "Doctrine for Joint Nuclear Operations," calls for the use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear adversaries in order "to ensure success of US and multinational operations."...

 

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=7463

 

First World War, what was the cause? The cause was that the Britishers will not allow the Germans to trade all over the world. They captured everything. And they’ll purchase from Germany goods and cheat people..., [conversation, June 17, 1974]

 

Pradyumna: “In the lower stages of human civilization, there is always competition to lord it over the material nature...”

 

Prabhupada: Hmm. That is going on. The great two wars began from Europe simply on this basis. The German and Englishmen. The Englishmen, by their colonization, they made the whole world red in the map. Africa and Asia, India and America, Canada. And the Germans thought, “So this shopkeepers’ nation...” Hitler used to say “shopkeepers’ nation.” “How they have occupied the whole world, and we are so intelligent? We are manufacturing so many things. We have no market to sell.” That is the cause of the two great wars. This is a fact. Anyone, any politician, any gentleman knows what was the cause. The cause was Germany is always envious of England. Why this enviousness? Because England wants to lord it over, send Lord Clive to India to exploit. And the German wants that “We have got so many things manufactured. We cannot sell.” That is the cause of war: lord it over. Everyone is trying to lord it over. The whole economic situation. Everyone is trying to become “the lord of all I survey.” Yes. “In the lower stage of human civilization, there is always competition to lord it over the material nature...” That is the lowest stage of human civilization. But that is passing on as the highest stage of... Anyone who has developed to how to exploit the resources of nature, that nation is called to be very highly civilized or advanced. But that is the lowest stage of civilization. Everyone is trying to make economic development by exploiting the world—digging the earth, the mines, the... This is lowest stage, just like animal civilization. [sB 1.1.2, lecture, 1971]