The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

In the Bible PauL say, " Even now there are many anti-christs among you. The anti-christ is he who denies the Father and Son.

 

Materialists are anti-christs.

impersonalists are anti-christs.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Hari Bol!

 

Prabhu! That isn't exactly a direct answer.

 

I still wonder - do you ascribe to the evangelical prophetic interpretations about the fictional Satan and antichrist?

 

There is a very specific scenario which is being preached wide and far - I just wonder if you see that pogrom for what it is or - if you actually ascribe to it.

 

That is the point of this thread - to show people that that prophetic scenario preached by these groups is false.

 

You quote “Even now there are many anti-christs among you. The anti-christ is he who denies the Father and Son.” – does that mean that Jews [and others] who do not accept Jesus as anymore than some guy – are they - as such – antichrists?

 

There are many religious individuals who are good people - who believe in God and - do not accept the personality of Jesus as Paul preaches him [people who reject that he is God reject that he was the 'only son of God' and reject that he was the expected messiah] – are they antichrists?

 

I agree that antichrists are materialists and impersonalists – but not all materialists and impersonalists are antichrists.

 

What is an antichrist? Well it is someone having an completely opposite character to that of Jesus – it’s quite simple really.

 

Some could see Mr. Bush as an antichrist and – some do! Some could see devotees of Krishna as antichrists and – some do!

 

I myself do not see Mr. Bush as an antichrist. I think that he sincerely wants to connect with God and - he wants to help his people [much like his enemies!?] it's just that he's confused and improperly directed [much like his enemies!] .

 

The fact is - there isn’t going to be some supernatural and satanic leader as per their delusional scenario. There is no Satan – only God.

 

It isn’t demons that people are really fighting - it’s their own ignorance.

 

So again these two ignorance’s - which these evangelicals cling to without logical reason - the Satan and antichrist myth – these delusions are dangerous features pervading global politics – consider too that their nemesis’s also think that these ‘crusaders’ - are the bad guys sent by the fictional Satan.

 

It is very disconcerting that extremist [apostate] Christian ‘end-times’ propagandists and extremist [apostate] Islamic ‘end-times’ propagandists both cast the role of antichrist as a Jew.

 

Are they really working in concert to thwart the factual 'prophesied global leader of the leaders' – the one to be sent by God who'll make the global condition fair and thus - better?

 

Or - is it an evil program to make peoples think that Jews are satanic and trying to control the world?

 

Jesus was not that 'messiah' - so what does that mean then to the messianic hopes for an age of peace and brotherhood?

 

Who is he to be - something to consider since it wasn't Jesus?

 

Consider again this nice quote from Bhagavatam:

 

A rope causes fear for a bewildered person who considers it a snake, but not for a person with proper intelligence who knows it to be only a rope. Similarly, You, as the Super-soul in everyone's heart, inspire fear or fearlessness according to ones intelligence, but in You there is no duality. [srimad Bhagavatam 6.9.37]

 

So what does that mean to this Satan and antichrist myth?

 

How extreme could these apostate Christian extremists become?

 

If you accept Krishna as God then you cannot exactly be an evangelical…

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I am working on a full gif animation of this picture I did of the Lord Holding the Earth [it'll be very cool!] - I have been practicing on this part - I have to share it I just love the over-all effect:

 

 

 

 

<big>"The Presence" </big>

 

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

 

I still wonder - do you ascribe to the evangelical prophetic interpretations about the fictional Satan and antichrist?

 

 

I am not sure all of what evangelical prophetic interpretations even say. I don't believe in the devil and I see all that is not bhakti as being anti-christ. That is it for me.

 

As far as some great battle between God and the evil one I have read something similar happening already between Varaha and Hiranyaksa. I don't know what these things mean exactly.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

You don't believe in the fictional satan so that is excellent - you are free of that antichrist end-times propaganda - that is very good!

 

Your servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

He believes Islamist terrorism requires extraordinary measures and the military should have maximum "flexibility" to combat the threat. He is now campaigning for an exemption for the CIA from such a ban, which was approved by the Senate last month but faces further debate before it can become law.

 

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/09/wchen09.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/09/ixworld.html

 

Previously I've wrote:

 

In any case – this torture program is sick – the fact is people who are tortured will say anything to make it stop – and people who are torturing to seek information are really not getting information they are told what they want to hear.

 

What about the fact that the war on terrorism - is really a turf war of sorts and that the so-called Muslim extremists - are a counter-point to the evangelical extremists – or is it the other way around – well it matters little in the final estimation of the problem.

 

We can discuss how this 'manufactured' problem is really a rouse - for something else - [ when do they at last listen to the people they are subjugating ?]

 

What if when there is another global war [the noted vice-[in the crudest sense?]-president is banking on one?] and U.S. [or any western] soldiers find themselves say - in China - would you like to know that they will be tortured and that - since your nation too has laws making it ok for the U.S. to do it - well - just think about it.

 

Of course in the current ‘infectious’ point and counter-point conflict scenario - we have a tug of war - between extremists from all camps - and their rope - is the innocent masses.

 

Soon they shall get a ‘rope-burn’ from this tug-of-war?

 

"... Communism is a movement of sudras, and capitalism is meant for vaisyas. In the fighting between these two factions, the sudras and vaisyas, gradually, due to the abominable condition of society, the communists will emerge triumphant, and as soon as this takes place, whatever is left of society will be ruined ...." [C.C. Adi, 8.20, purport]

 

We may delude ourselves and think the menace of this godless type of dictatorship is a thing of the past but - it isn't.

We [every devoted person with any ability and intelligence] cannot do our part if we are thinking and acting with racial religious political social or economic exclusivities – we must instead – cultivate an inclusive atmosphere!.

 

If this world is to ever become terror free then - we must stop the cultivating of conflicts by western leaders – how to do this? The sickest thing someone can do to make change is to act heinously. That kind of mode of ignorance action does bring change - it brings more power for abusive administrations – it creates a despicable atmosphere for everyone - including those who thus act.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

<big>Dear God - why do people think that they can act heinously - to bring ‘just’ change?

 

King Abdullah II condemned the attacks as "criminal acts committed by a deviant and misleading bunch" and said they would not sway Jordan from continuing its battle against terrorism. He cut short his official visit to Kazakhstan and was returning home Wednesday night.

 

http://news./s/cpress/20051109/ca_pr_on_wo/jordan_explosion

 

Jordan and its people are not the bad guys – and this whole hate frenzy is simply not fair this ‘deviant and misleading bunch’ cannot be doing these heinous things anymore if they want to help the cause of understanding [OF COURSE IT'S OBVIOUS THEY DON'T WANT TO WITH THEIR KILLING AND OTHER VIOLENCES].

 

I pray that Jordan realizes soon that they have to opt-out of their association with Bush and Co. – not because of this attack but because Bush and Co. [and ‘a deviant and misleading bunch’] are together moving everyone and everything into a ‘black hole’.

 

"...when the demoniac population of thieves, rogues, and criminals steadily increases, the kingdom [the world] is filled with chaos and terror." [srila Prabhupada]

 

What about the fact that the war on terrorism - is really a turf-war of sorts and that the so-called ‘Muslim’ extremists - are a counter-point to the ‘Evangelical’ extremists – or is it the other way around – well it matters little in the final estimation of the problem.

 

We can appreciate that there have been [variant grades of] extremists incipient from all faiths - it becomes more dangerous - when aggressive political leaders and religious leaders are extremists.

 

I have posted in this thread again and again about this point and counter-point conflict – that this is a turf-war between extremists:

 

There are people out in our world Godless people who think that people of faith are destroying our world – and each time some religious/political group acts heinously it induces all 'others' to judge everyone who believes in that faith.

 

Every time extremists kill innocent people they help the cause of the great ignorance – as long as Bush and Co. stay involved in the middle east they too help the cause of the great ignorance and - the spirit of the age of quarrel encroaches deeper and deeper.

 

There are a growing number of propagandists in the world who wish to do away with religion and our faith in God – they see that the communist model of state atheism is a good way to bring the populations - further from ‘universal’ moral and ethical teachings – to instead reduce the faith of humanity from being reposed in God - to having it centered on the state instead.

 

Everyone wants to have their rights considered fairly and they can be if the world makes a proper adjustment to its present approach and direction.

 

…in today’s world they are fighting for the wrong purposes and - they are fighting without rules or regulations – it seems that they must exponentially out-do each others atrocities – indeed it’s becoming the sickest one-upmanship process one could imagine.

 

Who isn’t getting fed-up with this nonsense? What do we do with a world like this - where the majority becomes thus bent?

 

How does one think in terms of what may happen as a result of any action - as Krishna says:

 

And that action performed in ignorance and delusion without consideration of future bondage or consequences, which inflicts injury and is impractical, is said to be action in the mode of ignorance. [bG 18.25]

 

The intricacies of action are very hard to understand. Therefore one should know properly what action is, what forbidden action is, and what inaction is. [bG 4.17]

 

So what does that mean? It means only God knows the results of our actions - that if we act foolish 'without consideration of future bondage or consequences' thinking we can work around the intricacies of action - we are quite deluded.

 

The sickest thing someone can do to make change is to act heinously. That kind of mode of ignorance action does bring change - it brings more power for abusive administrations – it creates a despicable atmosphere for everyone - including those who thus act.

 

As Srila Prabhupada says – how can you gain justice by yourself doing injustice?

 

One point here to consider is that in issues like this it is less difficult to deal with and satisfy groups as opposed to individuals - the longer the problem goes the more fracturing and factioning and thus - the increased difficulty to bring calm to the individuals of consequence - as by that time the masses tend to act as though there are no leaders?

 

"They will kill poor, faultless living entities, torture women and enrage the great souls". [sB 3.14.40]

 

Isn't that the direction these western [and other] extremists are heading?

 

It should be noted that in the Bhagavatam in 6.3.9 - the words for 'hellish planets' in the original Sanskrit are rendered as - 'the torture chambers' in the transliteration - so is that what Earth is now becoming – a torture chambers a - hellish planet?

 

"Self-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only without following any rules or regulations.

 

Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body and in the bodies of others, and blasphemes against the real religion." [bG 16.17-18]

 

If that isn't a correct outline of the evangelicals - then - I do not know what could be!!

 

This is a good text in this connection:

 

"That understanding which considers irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion, under the spell of illusion and darkness, and strives always in the wrong direction, O Partha, is in the mode of ignorance." [bG 18.32]

 

As noted the mainstream evangelical movements preaching on two points; Armageddon/Antichrist etc., and - the bashing of other faith groups - with the view to convert the 'spiritually bashed' into their mindless cult.

 

The more there is a terror atmosphere in our world the more those who preach an end-times scenario will increase their ranks - on both sides!

 

If this world is going to have a real future - where people of faith [any faith] can live in Peace [with each other and even others of 'no' faith] then this tit-for-tat competition and conflict - which is centered on psdeo-religious-political contentions - must end.

 

The 'evangelical' movements are churning out individuals who are as totally misguided and - are as much of a danger - as “Islamic” or any other ‘exclusivist’ extremist individuals – there are so many pretenders to the Faith [in every faith] – proven to be ‘pretenders’ - by reason of the manipulations and violence’s.

 

Bush and Co. are so far implicated in the mode of ignorance - only God can estimate it or - cure it.

 

It is time for Bush and Co. to cease and desist - in ALL their foreign policy calculations – time to GO HOME - from wherever in the world they are – GO HOME and let the world [and themselves] heal – if their counter-point extremists don’t stop their attacks how shall they ever see - global public sentiment - for this GO HOME program?

 

The sickest thing someone can do to make change is to act heinously. That kind of mode of ignorance action does bring change - it brings more power for abusive administrations – it creates a despicable atmosphere for everyone - including those who thus act.

 

There is hope for all these extremists – hope for all for us – all these various extremists believe in God – they certainly do not agree on who He is – but they accept – that aught to be their common ground not their division. They can all consider the innocent masses in all the places where they are wreaking their attacks and consider that these people are not swayed to their cause by such attacks.

 

Of course in the current ‘infectious’ point and counter-point conflict scenario - we have a tug-of-war - between extremists from these various camps - and their rope is the innocent masses.

 

Soon they shall get a ‘rope-burn’ from this tug-of-war?

 

Please God let our World Heal!

 

BDM

[krsna]

Hare Krsna, prabhu you're giving the last word on everything.

 

What more is there to say on this?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Prabhu - do you really think i come-off like that?

 

If i were in a debate of this nature [this thread] with Mr. Bush - whom do you think would lose?

 

Seriously though...

 

No prabhu i'm not giving the last word - i am hoping to stimulate inclusive and broad discussions - i'm trying to present as broad a message as possible in doing this - i certainly do not want the 'last word' on the matters - certainly i do not have everything covered - there is much more to be said - i'm sure i'll get around to all of eventually [lol].

 

Yer servant,

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Let us not forget that in the 'dark ages' during the witch-hunt - torture was used as a matter of course - quickly it was the norm that an un-tortured confession was an insincere or incomplete confession - soon every suspect was tortured – to gain complete and sincere confessions!

 

All in the "public good" of course…

 

Is THAT what could emerge out of this present use of torture by political groups?

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"President Bashar Assad won't bow to anyone in this world nor would he let his people or country to bow to anyone," he said to applause. "We only bow to God."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/10/AR2005111001314_pf.html

 

So as long as he does the right – and cooperates with the U.N. - then global opinion should prevent Bush and Co. from an invasion - should he become a hot head and have his ego go out of control - then - there will be a disaster.

 

The Syrian president speaks of “God” and “bowing” before only Him - well - if he really believes in his Faith - HE will act accordingly.

 

When Pope John Paul II went to Syria in 2001 - the president’s comments demonstrated that his Faith - needs work.

 

http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/popup/popup_0033.htm

 

This point he makes is most hypocritical:

 

Love means refraining from killing Arabs out of hatred, and to teach.

 

So why then are there so many Arabs killing? Why are there so many Arabs full of abject hate?

 

For him to comment like this [to the Pope nonetheless] - without understanding anything about his hate and its source - says what?

 

Why aren't the leaders of Syria Iran and Lebanon - teaching these points he makes - by example?

 

Of all the Leaders in the Middle East - I have long believed that the president of Syria is an unpredictable and somewhat unstable individual - just like Mr. Bush.

 

All their hate towards the state of Israel - isn't one-sided - as noted - the global evangelical propaganda teaches that any Jew who rejects Jesus shall perish. They teach that Jerusalem shall be the seat of Christ’s kingdom [which in time they shall ‘form’ and ‘administer’ till Jesus’ so-called second coming]

 

Of course we know that they teach that anyone who rejects their interpretation of Jesus and reality in general - shall perish.

 

What exactly is the relationship of Syria's president and Bush and Co. - I ask this - as there are a few points of interest that one might question about their real associations.

 

In Canada we have a case with a former Syrian [Maher Arar] who was deported from the U.S. - as an alleged terrorist - here is the question - they sent Mr. Arar to Syria - where he was tortured for information!

 

So what is up with that? Bush and Co. think that Syria is a terrorist state - without doubt we have heard rhetoric from Syria that conforms they are not altogether uninvolved in spreading the quarrel spirit – we have heard from Bush and Co. that they think that Syria is a state that harbors terrorists.

 

So why did Bush and Co. send that fellow to Syria to be tortured? Is there some kind of secret relationship between Damascus and Washington – both president’s are aposate members of their faith with the same goals – to subjugate Israel?

 

So in any event – let’s pray to God that these two unstable individuals do not start another war.

 

When the Iraq invasion was winding down in its initial onslaught – Mr. Cheney and Mr. Rumsfeld applied for a hot-pursuit order – Mr. Bush was in Ireland and Ms. Rice was in control in his absence – not Mr. Cheney! In any case Ms. Rice denied them their hot-pursuit order to go into Syria – in the crucial hours when it was possible to invoke a hot-pursuit order they were denied.

 

Incidentally - I wrote to Mr. Bush that night and - told him that he should not try to play some games with the unstable president of Syria [i had a premonition of sorts] – I even provided a graphic protest poster I made called “playmates for peace” – when I sent that correspondence [by email] - they were ‘at that hour’ seeking for a hot-pursuit order – I actually that think Ms. Rice saw the letter and the graphic protest poster I sent and decided that such a move would be ill-prudent.

 

These leaders need to get on a proper direction and - NOW!

 

This is a plea to all the Good Leaders in the World who may happenstance here to read – please do not let this global situation get any worse – it is time to go to the U.N. and get some real changes made in our world – before there is no opportunity to do so - due to global war…

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

unstable individuals

 

Reply:

 

I shall explain what I am saying here....later...

[krsna]

Is there such a thing as hell?

 

Or is it simply hellish consciousness that is actually 'hell'?

 

When people say, 'Go to Hell', is that a place or state of being denoted by a place of continuous and intense suffering?

 

Seems hell and satan go together, as Satan is the lord of hell, this fantasia of demoniac ordeals...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Sure there is a hell - in the veda's it's well described - where it is - what it is - why it is - but there is nothing about satan in those texts - sure there is a hell but that doesn't pre-suppose that satan is real.

 

Indeed it's "hellish consciousness" that takes one there!

 

YS,

 

 

[krsna]

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

(Herein posted for the kind perusal of enlightened beings everywhere)

 

 

Thinking about the virtues and faults of this world, some moralistic monotheists concluded that this material world is not a place of unalloyed pleasures. Indeed, the sufferings outweigh the pleasures. They decided that the material world is a prison to punish the living entities. If there is punishment, then there must be a crime. If there were no crime, then why would there be any punishment? What crime did the living entities commit? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being, the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from that garden into the material world filled with sufferings. Because of their offense, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offense, God Himself took birth in a humanlike form, took on His own shoulders the sins of His followers, and then died. All who follow Him easily attain liberation, and all who do not follow Him fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes Himself, and thus liberates the living entities. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this.

 

To accept this mixed-up religion one must first believe these rather implausible things: "The living entity's life begins at birth and ends at death. Before birth the living entity did not exist, and after death the living entity will no longer stay in the world of material activities. Only human beings have souls. Other creatures do not have souls." Only extremely unintelligent persons believe this religion. In this religion the living entity is not spiritual in nature. By His own will God created the living entities out of matter. Why are the living entities born into very different situations? The followers of this religion cannot say. Why is one living entity born into a house filled with sufferings, another living entity born into a house filled with joys, another living entity born into the house of a person devoted to God, and another living enttity born into a wicked atheist's house? Why is one person born in a situation where he is encouraged to perform pious deeds, and he performs pious deeds and becomes good? Why is another person born in a situation where he is encouraged to sin, and he sins and becomes bad? The followers of this religion cannot answer all these questions. Their religion seems to say that God is unfair and irrational.

 

Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why do birds and beasts not have souls like human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life, and, because of their actions in that one life are rewarded in eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell? Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

We have been over this - read back [starting at 07/31/05] and see...

[krsna]

seems you've covered all the bases!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Did you read those postings?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

In the News:

 

Every year, Israeli armed colonizers attack farmers during the olive season. They usually torch and uproot rees [sic] and attack farmers.

 

http://english.wafa.ps/body.asp?id=4628

 

The Israeli "Yediot" daily revealed today that Israeli Minister Shaul Mofaz said that Israel must continue to "promote" the building of the "separation fence" (Apartheid Wall), as well as to strengthen the settlement blocs (colonies).

 

http://english.wafa.ps/body.asp?id=4626

 

These two things are not good – why don’t these settlers who are breaking the law - understand that violence begets violence?

 

The wall – I shall quote Talmud again:

 

“It is better to have ten inches to stand upon than a hundred yards to fall”

 

This wall building gives a hundred yards to fall.

 

Also the left-wing party in Israel that says it shall exit the west bank if they are elected are also not very intelligent.

 

This settlement has to be fair in terms of all those who did leave their homes in other nations to settle in the land of their ancestors – they cannot be expected to give up everything.

 

If the left-wing takes control in Israel and tries to thus settle the conflict - there will be civil war at some point following that.

 

The solution isn’t complicated – they are making it complicated. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

News:

 

In the sharpest White House attack yet on critics of the Iraq war, Vice President Dick Cheney said on Wednesday that accusations the Bush administration manipulated intelligence to justify the war were a "dishonest and reprehensible" political ploy...Cheney called Democrats "opportunists" who were peddling "cynical and pernicious falsehoods" to gain political advantage while U.S. soldiers died in Iraq.

 

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-17T021259Z_01_MCC700968_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-USA-COL.XML

 

Well indeed - and who does he think he is?

 

What is with this seemingly autocratic America wherein it is - 'don't ask questions don't be speaking-out truths about the leaders' - only 'tyrants' think like this - is that what Mr. Cheney is become - one of many 'tyrants'?

 

Just think - 'Tyrant' is also - 'Tie Rant'....a white-collar ranter...

[krsna]

Get this info out to the people now! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

Do you have a website, e-zine, or e-book where all your analysis of world events are shown? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Hari Bol!

 

No - only here - I don't yet know anything about those other services - I should find out...

 

Here is the only website I have:

 

http://www.dentalSpy_implants.blog.ca

 

Thanks for your nice encouragement...

 

Hare Krishna!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I have been a member at this forum for four years today!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I read that Mr. Sharon is leaving Likud [let's hope that he forms a real effective 'center leaning' party enough left-wing and right-wing already] - a factioning in Likud is in progress - just see - what is said here is going on...