The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

I entered the discussion because you seem to be interested in our path yet you focus too much on inferior sources of knowledge. It is called a comment from a fellow traveller. dont like it? I'm sorry...

 

Reply:

 

I have been on this "path" since 1988 - so I thinks it's more than "interested"!

 

You interpretations are the inferior!

 

Further - you cannot take some gold out of the stool?

 

In any case - I think you just hate Muslims Jews and Christians - and you need to think that that's ok - that is your business.

 

If you cannot accept what Prabhupada says - then what can I say?

 

In any case - please do some study - you may be surprised in the truths you'll find.

 

Why not do as I asked - if those original quotes are in Talmud - I want a link to where it was found - [cause I know you don't have a hard copy of it] - so in any case - you go and get a link to that information and - while you're at it - find out who translated it and when etc., if you cannot do that - then you've something to hide...

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

sati was encouraged in the Vedas as a strictly volountary act. it DOES NOT come anywhere NEAR the mass murder of thousands of innocent people sanctioned by a religious leader. if you can't see that - you are hopelessly blind.

 

 

Reply:

 

I see they ALL wanted to die that way - over the course of its practice?

 

Actually - I understand the proper context of those passages - but too often - 'outsiders' may not - so aren't you projecting a limited understanding here - just like an outsider?

 

YS,

 

 

[Kulapavana]

"In any case - I think you just hate Muslims Jews and Christians"

 

you are wrong. I do not hate anybody, but I strongly dislike barbarism passing as religion among these people.

 

"if those original quotes are in Talmud - I want a link to where it was found"

 

if you look closely you will find, that I did not put these quotes on this thread. I merely quoted a passage already posted here.

 

"I have been on this "path" since 1988 - so I thinks it's more than "interested""

 

good for you! I joined in the late 70's. for an "old salt" you seem to be preoccupied with the wrong set of scriptures /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Quote:

 

do not hate anybody, but I strongly dislike barbarism passing as religion among these people

 

Reply:

 

Again I shall say that Prabhupada doesn't agree - sure there have been many prolific cheaters from those faiths - but - then again India has had its share of pretenders - it 'is' kuli yuga.

 

You may not hate those groups - but you cannot see that God is there in those traditions. If you cannot change them - you cannot accept them either?

 

Naturally I know that the vedic version is the most complete - but that doesn't mean that other traditions are bogus - no - people are bogus - in all traditions - ISKCON had one of the worst judas' in history - Kirtanananda.

 

Quote:

 

if you look closely you will find, that I did not put these quotes on this thread. I merely quoted a passage already posted here.

 

Reply:

 

I know that.

 

However - when you 'defended' that quote - you inasmuch said that you agree with it. Thus it isn't wrong for me to request what I did.

 

Of course - Suchandra should be the one to post that information - so let's see if that happens.

 

Quote:

 

you seem to be preoccupied with the wrong set of scriptures

 

Reply:

 

I am obsessed with the vedic scriptures - however - it certainly is important to understand from the perspective of all the faiths - thus when I preach it is much more complete and authoritive.

 

Without doubt I like to read anything and everything about God - but I also know 'where' my faith is reposed.

 

Often preaching can only entail encouraging people on their own levels and within terminology that they are familiar with. Prabhupada did this himself - often.

 

Many shall take it up - but we know that not everyone is going to come to Krishna Consciousness - but - we can at least 'lead the pack' in bringing the mass of people closer to God within their own faiths - who but Krishna's devotees can best do this?

 

If we cannot do this - kuli yuga is certainly going to encroach upon us - much deeper.

 

So when I hear the kind of stuff that I did - it made me respond - it isn't all about rejection and criticism - no - that is not a basis for inclusion - but rather exclusion.

 

We are inclusive - not exclusive. The same is true of the other faiths as well - even though most followers of those traditions - fail to see and practise that.

 

That is part of the interpretation of what Prabhupada is admonishing in this purport:

 

"...This age of Kali [quarrel] will certainly be full of all activities of Kali [quarrel], but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali [quarrel]. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains..." [srimad Bhagavatam 1.17.28, purport]

 

So did Prabhupada ever write in His Books or speak in public - about the other tradition's scriptures being without value? No.

 

So in any case another good reason to know these things is to have healthy debate - which this is turning into I hope.

 

So take care and please see if 'you' can verify that Talmud quote - if you cannot - then should 'you' agree with it?

 

YS,

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"...It is not a fact that the Lord appears only on Indian soil. He can advent Himself anywhere and everywhere, and whenever He desires to appear. In each and every incarnation, He speaks as much about religion as can be understood by the particular people under their particular circumstances. But the mission is the same--to lead people to God consciousness and obedience to the principles of religion. Sometimes He descends personally, and sometimes He sends His bona fide representative in the form of His son, or servant, or Himself in some disguised form..." [bG 4.7, purport]

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Here is an excellent point I found by a devotee posted on this board on another string:

 

"The transcendental devotees of the Lord are not only free from material envy, but are well-wishers to everyone, and they strive to establish a competitionless society with God in the center."

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Board=health&Number=34939

 

That is very nice! Cooperation not competition...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Are you hiding this from this string? [lol]

 

"we should only talk about these things to people open enough to see value in other religions. talking to closed minded bigots is a total waste of time."

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat.php?Board=hinduism&Number=100867

 

Gee couldn't have said it better myself!

[Kulapavana]

actually, I do not preach to people who are strongly rooted in their respective traditions. there is no use ruining their faith.

 

and btw. I know a lot more about the judaic tradition than you can imagine. I have a couple of friends with deep, deep roots in the Kabbalah. I also know a lot about various editions of Talmudic commentaries. I simply do not wish to discuss that stuff here. There are verses much worse in these commentaries than the one I picked on this thread. You know it too.

 

if you want to go back to the original subject, think about the great she-dragon of which Lilith was an offspring.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

find me a passage in the vedic literature, where a supposedly great holy man and religious leader like Moses orders a MASS MURDER of anybody in his tribe (including innocent women and children) who does not believe in his god (and who keeps alive his brother, who instructed his tribe to worship false gods).

 

Reply:

 

That is hardly a fair description of that chapter of Exodus!

 

You are speaking of the narration of the golden calf - in chapter 32 of Exodus:

 

1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him: 'Up, make us a god who shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.' 2 And Aaron said unto them: 'Break off the golden rings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.' 3 And all the people broke off the golden rings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4 And he received it at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, and made it a molten calf; and they said: 'This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.' 5 And when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said: 'To-morrow shall be a feast to the LORD.' 6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt-offerings, and brought peace-offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to make merry. {P}

7 And the LORD spoke unto Moses: 'Go, get thee down; for thy people, that thou broughtest up out of the land of Egypt, have dealt corruptly; 8 they have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed unto it, and said: This is thy god, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.' 9 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people. 10 Now therefore let Me alone, that My wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make of thee a great nation.' 11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said: 'LORD, why doth Thy wrath wax hot against Thy people, that Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, saying: For evil did He bring them forth, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from Thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against Thy people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou didst swear by Thine own self, and saidst unto them: I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.' 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which He said He would do unto His people. {P}

15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, with the two tables of the testimony in his hand; tables that were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. 16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables. 17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses: 'There is a noise of war in the camp.' 18 And he said: 'It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome, but the noise of them that sing do I hear.' 19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing; and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and broke them beneath the mount. 20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it with fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it. 21 And Moses said unto Aaron: 'What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought a great sin upon them?' 22 And Aaron said: 'Let not the anger of my lord wax hot; thou knowest the people, that they are set on evil. 23 So they said unto me: Make us a god, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him. 24 And I said unto them: Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off; so they gave it me; and I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.' 25 And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose--for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies -- 26 then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said: 'Whoso is on the LORD'S side, let him come unto me.' And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. 27 And he said unto them: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.' 28 And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. 29 And Moses said: 'Consecrate yourselves to-day to the LORD, for every man hath been against his son and against his brother; that He may also bestow upon you a blessing this day.' 30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people: 'Ye have sinned a great sin; and now I will go up unto the LORD, peradventure I shall make atonement for your sin.' 31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said: 'Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them a god of gold. 32 Yet now, if Thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray Thee, out of Thy book which Thou hast written.' 33 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Whosoever hath sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My book. 34 And now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee; behold, Mine angel shall go before thee; nevertheless in the day when I visit, I will visit their sin upon them.' 35 And the LORD smote the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. {S}

 

So what important point - do we have there:

 

“…And Moses said unto Aaron: 'What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought a great sin upon them?' 22 And Aaron said: 'Let not the anger of my lord wax hot; thou knowest the people, that they are set on evil… And when Moses saw that the people were broken loose--for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies…”

 

So clearly Aaron didn’t want to do it – he certainly didn’t start it! Instead he went along with them because he knew the result must come – and that was a falling away of those who had no faith in God – after all the wonders that brought them out of Egypt – what to speak - he obviously feared for his life if he didn’t do as they asked.

 

So we clearly see that it is said: “Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies”

 

Have a look at chapter’s 17-18 of the book of judges:

 

1 Now there was a man of the hill-country of Ephraim, whose name was Micah. 2 And he said unto his mother: 'The eleven hundred pieces of silver that were taken from thee, about which thou didst utter a curse, and didst also speak it in mine ears, behold, the silver is with me; I took it.' And his mother said: 'Blessed be my son of the LORD.' 3 And he restored the eleven hundred pieces of silver to his mother, and his mother said: 'I verily dedicate the silver unto the LORD from my hand for my son, to make a graven image and a molten image; now therefore I will restore it unto thee.' 4 And when he restored the money unto his mother, his mother took two hundred pieces of silver, and gave them to the founder, who made thereof a graven image and a molten image; and it was in the house of Micah. 5 And the man Micah had a house of God, and he made an ephod, and teraphim, and consecrated one of his sons, who became his priest. 6 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did that which was right in his own eyes. {P}

7 And there was a young man out of Beth-lehem in Judah--in the family of Judah--who was a Levite, and he sojourned there. 8 And the man departed out of the city, out of Beth-lehem in Judah, to sojourn where he could find a place; and he came to the hill-country of Ephraim to the house of Micah, as he journeyed. 9 And Micah said unto him: 'Whence comest thou?' And he said unto him: 'I am a Levite of Beth-lehem in Judah, and I go to sojourn where I may find a place.' 10 And Micah said unto him: 'Dwell with me, and be unto me a father and a priest, and I will give thee ten pieces of silver by the year, and a suit of apparel, and thy victuals.' So the Levite went in. 11 And the Levite was content to dwell with the man; and the young man was unto him as one of his sons. 12 And Micah consecrated the Levite, and the young man became his priest, and was in the house of Micah. 13 Then said Micah: 'Now know I that the LORD will do me good, seeing I have a Levite as my priest.' {P}

 

Then we see – God nowhere rebukes them for making this image of Him.

 

1…And the children of Dan set up for themselves the graven image; and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land. 31 So they set them up Micah's graven image which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh. {P}

Then there is this:

 

MISHNA VII. TO IX. If God is displeased with idol-worship, why does he not destroy the idols, etc.? If the heathens worshipped but things not needful to the world, He would surely annihilate them; but they worship the sun, moon, stars and the planets. How is it that so many cripples are cured by the idols in their temples? If one comes to defile himself, the door is opened to him, while when one comes to cleanse himself, he is supported….”

 

That is interesting – it wasn’t really idol worship that 3000 were downed for in Exodus chapter 32 – it was for crass ignorance in rejecting God – the golden calf was quite secondary!

 

In answer to your question:

 

Arjuna said: O Janardana, O Keshava, why do You urge me to engage in this ghastly warfare, if You think that intelligence is better than fruitive work? [bG 3.1]

 

So there you have it – think of this too when you see outsiders looking into the texts – out of context.

 

Yer servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

The story of Lilith is to be taken as allegory - like much of the bible.

 

As for your answer in this part:

 

"I know a lot more about the judaic tradition than you can imagine. I have a couple of friends with deep, deep roots in the Kabbalah. I also know a lot about various editions of Talmudic commentaries. I simply do not wish to discuss that stuff here. There are verses much worse in these commentaries than the one I picked on this thread. You know it too."

 

Reply:

 

No I do not "know it too" - and pardon me but - what a cop out with yer answer!

 

Just see your seeming limited vision....

[Kulapavana]

Arjuna said: O Janardana, O Keshava, why do You urge me to engage in this ghastly warfare, if You think that intelligence is better than fruitive work? [bG 3.1]

 

you compare the battle of Kurukshetra (ghastly as it was) where willing warriors waged war on each other to the mass murder of unarmed people, including women and children?

 

hmmm, how absurd... anyway, and their crime was?

 

"it wasn’t really idol worship that 3000 were downed for in Exodus chapter 32 – it was for crass ignorance in rejecting God"

 

I thought that we are FREE to chose acceptance or rejection of God?

 

Lord Vishnu does not punish you for rejecting Him. He punishes you for your wicked activities, not your doubts. Maybe the god of Isreaelites is not Lord Vishnu? Many Vaishnava scholars think that this is indeed the case.

 

BEWARE of men and religions who say you can be killed if you reject their god. Moses, Binladen, pastor Jones, all belong to that group.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Now I know that you are a thinking like a bigot. Oh well what can I say...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

 

In chapter 32 of Exodus it is clearly said in text 28:

 

"...there fell of the people that day about three thousand men."

 

It says MEN - so where do you get women and children from?

 

Arent you reading points into the passages - ideas which are not actually there?

 

Just like your point about 'Aaron' - it was answered by a reading of the full chapter in proper context:

 

"...for Aaron had let them loose for a derision among their enemies..."

 

Later I will explain what their crime was - I think that it is obvious - but I will detail the point anyway.

 

I will quote this now - as part of the answer:

 

"But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next." [bG 4.40]

 

At last - it is in a rude and twisted comparison of "Moses" with the ultra-freak "Binladen" - in that I observe your deviation - just see!

 

Quote:

 

I thought that we are FREE to chose acceptance or rejection of God?

 

Reply:

 

Well if that were true - then we could infact live without God couldn't we - but there are a plethora of 'natural' reactions for us - when we do reject God.

 

Quote:

 

you compare the battle of Kurukshetra (ghastly as it was) where willing warriors waged war on each other

 

Reply:

 

You think only warriors lost their lives in that battle?

 

You forgot King Yudishtira's lamentations after the battle:

 

"King Yudhishtira said: O my lot! I am the most sinful man! Just see my heart, which is full of ignorance! This body, which is ultimately meant for others, has killed many, many phalanxes of men.

 

I have killed many boys, brahmanas, well-wishers, friends, parents, preceptors and brothers. Though I live millions of years, I will not be relieved from the hell that awaits me for all these sins.

 

There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens. But this injunction is not applicable to me.

 

I have killed many friends of women, and I have thus caused enmity to such an extent that it is not possible to undo it by material welfare work.

 

As it is not possible to filter muddy water through mud, or purify a wine-stained pot with wine, it is not possible to counteract the killing of men by sacrificing animals." [sB 1.8.48-52]

 

In the Purport to text 49 Srila Prabhupada states:

 

"Whenever there is a war, there is certainly a massacre of many innocent living beings, such as boys, brahmanas and women, whose killing is considered to be the greatest of sins...It was simply horrible for him to think of such killing, and therefore he was thinking of residing in hell for millions and billions of years."

 

So there were losses outside that battle field.

 

I find it to be disconcerting that you could be reading Prabhupada for over two decades - and still have these narrow views.

 

yer servant,

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

Kulapavana

<blockquote>

Lord Vishnu does not punish you for rejecting Him. He punishes you for your wicked activities, not your doubts. Maybe the god of Isreaelites is not Lord Vishnu? Many Vaishnava scholars think that this is indeed the case.

</blockquote>

Over time, I have also come to believe that "the God of Abraham and Moses" is not Sri Vishnu at all. Yahweh seems more like some sort of demon-god to me.

 

It is disturbing that "the God of Abraham and Moses" is supposed to have ordered that the Israelites should massacre entire peoples in acts of genocide.

 

According to the Old Testament, at "the battle of Jericho" and at other places they massacred not only men, women and children, but even animals such as cows and sheep that happened to be present. What sort of a god is this god Yahweh, that he ordains the massacre of children?

 

We do know that Krishna destroyed the city of Kasi with his chakra, annihilating everyone (including children) who were living in Kasi. And of course God allows the wheel of time to kill every being in the world, when their time of death finally arrives. But when Krishna destroyed Kasi it would have been an instantaneous and painless death for the people there since the people of Kasi were all "nuked" in a sudden flash of fire. This seems altogether different to me than a house-to-house slaughter of children and their parents by sword weilding Israelites, as was the case at Jericho.

 

Also, in the Bible it is said that for hundreds of years the Israelites used to worship an idol of a serpent, Nehustan, which was made by Moses. So I really can't understand that "idol worship" is supposed to be against the rulings of yahwey. After all, it was Yahwey and moses who proposed that the Israelites should worship this snake idol Nehustan in the first place.

 

I really must say that I agree with Kulapavana here. The Israelites were barbarians. I'm not really sure that they were watched over by any god at all. In my mind, I can't help but think that the so-called scriptures of the Israelites are merely documents that record the imaginary ideas and misconceived thoughts of the prophets of israel.

 

- m.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Dear “Unknown Person”

 

This is an seemingly controversial history related in the pages of Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

“Thereafter, in the sixth year, after wandering in the forest, Rohita returned to the capital of his father. He purchased from Ajigarta his second son, named Sunahsepha. Then he offered Sunahsepha to his father, Hariscandra, to be used as the sacrificial animal and offered Hariscandra his respectful obeisances.

 

PURPORT

 

It appears that in those days a man could be purchased for any purpose. Hariscandra was in need of a person to sacrifice as the animal in a yajïa and thus fulfill his promise to Varuna, and a man was purchased from another man for this purpose. Millions of years ago, animal sacrifice and slave trade both existed. Indeed, they have existed since time immemorial.

 

Thereafter, the famous King Hariscandra, one of the exalted persons in history, performed grand sacrifices by sacrificing a man and pleased all the demigods. In this way his dropsy created by Varuna was cured.

 

In that great human sacrifice, Visvamitra was the chief priest to offer oblations, the perfectly self-realized Jamadagni had the responsibility for chanting the mantras from the Yajur Veda, Vasistha was the chief brahminical priest, and the sage Ayasya was the reciter of the hymns of the Sama Veda.

 

King Indra, being very pleased with Hariscandra, offered him a gift of a golden chariot. Sunahsepha’s glories will be presented along with the description of the son of Visvamitra.” [sB 9.7.20-23]

 

So what about that being interpreted by outsiders? Taken at face value - it sort of sounds like the same manner of atrocity you accuse the ancient Israelites of.

 

Now this:

 

"He hath cut off in His fierce anger all the horn of Israel," etc. (Lam. ii. 3). These are the eighty thousand war-horns or battering-rams that entered the city of Byther, in which he massacred so many [israelite] men, women, and children, that their blood ran like a river and flowed into the Mediterranean Sea, which was a mile away from the place. [Gittin, fol. 57, col. 1.]

 

So that quote from Talmud shows that God punished the Israelites in the same fashion as they seemed to smite others. We know from historical study that that happened more than once. Why did this form of carnage take place in this history?

 

I am not pretending to explain a complex subject in this one posting but here is the gist of my point to consider when reading your post.

 

The fact is the history of the Israelites is one surrounded by actual barbaric peoples and cultures that were engaged in a ugly form of false worship - that too often included human sacrifice – this form of paganism cannot be compared to the any of the ‘faiths’ in India [?].

 

Consider the impact [to this history] of the fact that at the same point in the start of the kuli yuga [when] sacrifice was made redundant by impure and impotent priests [some of which] – who later went to the Middle East – to start these apostate type faiths - like in Canaan? What were the faiths surrounding the Israelites like – were they innocent?

 

The fact is this false form of worship was too often encroaching on the minds and hearts of too many Israelites over the course – there are stories of the Israelites picking up on the Canaanites’ practices of offering their own children in so-called sacrifices.

 

How would you try to keep/bring a people - to a steady following of a true monotheism – under these circumstances?

 

Of course all that was at the start of the kuli yuga.

 

These people are a people who walked with God before kuli yuga – a true monotheistic philosophy - that has connections to the Vedic culture – more on that another time.

 

Without doubt ANY massacre of woman and children is horrific – but to use those narrations - out of context - isn’t fair to history.

 

Without doubt - that is what their enemies were then doing to them – so instead of invalidating the tradition based on this – try instead to see this history - in light of the age of quarrel. [i’ll post more on that point later too – but I have chores to do right now]

 

Quote:

 

Over time, I have also come to believe that "the God of Abraham and Moses" is not Sri Vishnu at all. Yahweh seems more like some sort of demon-god to me.

 

Reply:

 

Then you do not agree with Prabhupada:

 

"...In all religions, temple worship and acceptance of authority are present. We may accept Krishna, or Lord Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, or Lord Buddha, or Sankaracarya, or Guru Nanak, but in any case acceptance of authority is required..." [Elevation to Krishna consciousness, chapter 6]

 

"...God is known by many names, according to His different qualities and activities. In the Bible he is known as Jehovah (“the almighty one”), in the Koran as Allah (“the great one”)..." [Quest for Enlightenment, Introduction]

 

"...We don’t even demand you say “Krishna.” You can say “jehovah.” you can say “Yahweh.”..." [Sb 5.5.1, lecture]

 

"...spiritually, the name Krishna or the name Allah or the name jehovah is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead..." [lecture, June 15, 1968]

 

Of course there seems some contradictory qualities in the ‘incarnations’ – are we to expect that they are all like Krishna?

 

"...That is to test the Vedic mantra. An animal will be put into the fire, and by Vedic mantra he’ll be rejuvenated. That is sacrifice, animal sacrifice. Not that for eating purpose. Therefore in this age of Kali, Caitanya Mahaprabhu has forbidden any kind of yajna because there is no, I mean to say, expert brahmana who can chant the mantras and make experiment of the Vedic mantras that “Here is coming out.” That is... Before performing yajna [fire sacrifice], how the mantra is potent, that was tested by sacrificing animal and again giving new life. Then it is to be understood that the priests who were chanting that mantra, that is right. That was a test. Not for animal-killing. But these rascals, for eating animals they cited, “Here, there is animal-killing.” Just like in Calcutta... You have been in Calcutta? And there is a street, College Street. Now it is differently named. I think it is named Vidhan Raya (?). Just like... Anyway, so there are some slaughterhouses. So slaughterhouses means the Hindus, they do not purchase meat from Muslims’ shop. That is impure. (laughter) The same thing: stool this side and that side. They are eating meat, and Hindu shop is pure, Muslim shop is impure. These are mental concoction. Religion is going on like that. Therefore... Therefore fighting: “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Christian.” Nobody knows religion. You see? They have given up religion, these rascals. There is no religion. The real religion is this, Krishna consciousness, which teaches how to love God. That’s all. That is religion. Any religion, it doesn’t matter whether Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, if you are developing love of God, then you are perfect in your religion. That is the test…” [Lecture May 03, 1970]

 

So I think your post is biased and limited – and not in accord with Prabhupada’s verdict.

 

yer servant

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

Human sacrifice is also mentioned in Bhagavatam, in relation to the attempted sacrifice of Jada-Bharata to goddess Kali. But Kali was not happy that the dacoits were going to kill Jada Bharata so she emerged from the Deity and killed the dacoits.

 

Jarasandha also used to offer human sacrifice to Shiva. Jarasandha killed captured kings he held prisoner and he offered them as sacrifices to Shiva.

 

Is this Vaishnavism? No.

 

Krishna says, "yada yada hi dharmasysa" or "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself." And so it was, that Sri Ram descended to earth in the time of visvamitra. In fact Visvamitra Rishi initiated Sri Rama with the brahma-gayatri mantra; Visvamitra Rishi is the seer who first "saw" the brahma-gayatri mantra.

 

Visvamitra and Indra conspired to cause many tragic events in the life of king Harischandra, who was forced to sell his son and wife as slaves, and become a slave himself, in order to repay a debt to Vishvamitra. He was striving for liberation, as Visvamitra was, and in his search for moksa he followed a path of action that is categorically condemned by all Vaishnava acharyas.

 

We are told, by our Gaudiya Acharyas, that we should not follow the examples of the Rishis of the Vedic era. Our religion belongs to a later age of humankind. Visvamitra belongs to an era where the rishis were exploring the nature of reality but his ideas and actvities, and the doings of others such as Jamadagni and Vasistha (who were more or less like mayavadis if you read their teachings in the Upanishads), are far lower down the spiritual evolutionary scale from proper Vaishnavism.

 

If Visvamitra was the ritvik at that yagna, which was offered to Indra, it doesn't mean that the yagna was a "vaishnava" ritual. If Visvamitra and human sacrifice are mentioned in Bhagavatam, it doesn't mean that Bhagavatam is promoting human sacrifice. In fact Krishna put a stop to people doing Indra Yajnas. Krishna told the people to worship Govardhana instead.

 

However, we find that in the old testament Yahweh was advocating genocide.

 

Sree Vishnu never advocated that. Never.

 

-m.

 

[Guest guest]

Is the so called monotheism of the Western religions a truly advanced stage of spiritual realization.

 

Bin laden is a monotheist.

George Bush is a monotheist.

Ariel Sharon is a monotheist.

 

What do these men all have in common? I leave that to you, to make a judgement on that question.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that the tantrics and worshippers of Kali (pantheists) in Nabadwip have a higher understanding of spritituality than the Christians and other cow killing monotheists.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

We are told, by our Gaudiya Acharyas, that we should not follow the examples of the Rishis of the Vedic era. Our religion belongs to a later age of humankind. Visvamitra belongs to an era where the rishis were exploring the nature of reality but his ideas and actvities

 

Reply:

 

You can apply that to your tradition - but they cannot to theirs?

 

Quote:

 

If Visvamitra was the ritvik at that yagna, which was offered to Indra, it doesn't mean that the yagna was a "vaishnava" ritual. If Visvamitra and human sacrifice are mentioned in Bhagavatam, it doesn't mean that Bhagavatam is promoting human sacrifice.

 

Reply:

 

Of course - and - cannot the Hebrews reason in the same way?

 

Quote:

 

However, we find that in the old testament Yahweh was advocating genocide.

 

Reply:

 

Yahweh certainly is a different 'rasa' than Krishna [i used to think He was Lord Shiva] – but according to Prabhupada - He is Vishnu and I wonder - why you didn't comment on the Prabhupada quotes in my post?

 

If you just call the matter “genocide” - then that shows that you didn't address the points I made.

 

As you've noted - there are some conflictive ideas of 'religion' described in the history in Bhagavatam - that we are to understand - in context - the same is true of the history of the Hebrews.

 

You accept that or - do not - that is your choice - but Prabhupada says that the name Krishna and the name Yahweh and the name Allah - are spiritually the same.

 

I see that despite that - you do not see this.

 

Prabhupada says that these three religions are vaishnava – all-be-it now in a less pure position.

 

"...In all religions, temple worship and acceptance of authority are present. We may accept Krishna, or Lord Jesus Christ, or Jehovah, or Lord Buddha, or Sankaracarya, or Guru Nanak, but in any case acceptance of authority is required..." [Elevation to Krishna consciousness, chapter 6]

 

"...God is known by many names, according to His different qualities and activities. In the Bible he is known as Jehovah (“the almighty one”), in the Koran as Allah (“the great one”)..." [Quest for Enlightenment, Introduction]

 

"...We don’t even demand you say “Krishna.” You can say “jehovah.” you can say “Yahweh.”..." [SB 5.5.1, Lecture]

 

"...spiritually, the name Krishna or the name Allah or the name jehovah is as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead..." [lecture, June 15, 1968]

 

Therefore fighting: “I am Hindu,” “I am Muslim,” “I am Christian.” Nobody knows religion. You see? They have given up religion, these rascals. There is no religion. The real religion is this, Krishna consciousness, which teaches how to love God. That’s all. That is religion. Any religion, it doesn’t matter whether Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, if you are developing love of God, then you are perfect in your religion. That is the test…” [Lecture May 03, 1970]

 

So you cannot judge the path - you have to judge the followers of the paths. You certainly see that Prabhupada mentions all the faiths in all respects.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"Self-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only without following any rules or regulations.

 

Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body and in the bodies of others, and blasphemes against the real religion." [bG 16.17-18]

 

"He goes alone to the darkest regions of hell after quitting the present body, and the money he acquired by envying other living entities is the passage money with which he leaves this world." [sB 3.30.31]

 

Yes the first and second names are serious rogues - the third we shall see - his history isn't so great - but he still has good choices before him.

 

Number one has no more choices - he is done - when the Yamadhutas come for him - I bet he will be quite surprised - number two - well I am not sure he even understands the implications of his faith - what to speak his global manipulations with it.

 

Certainly all three are hated by scores of others - but they should be 'hated' for their political manipulations - not that one should judge their religions - because of them.

 

We also must know that they are all three eternal souls who will one day return to the spiritual sky - like ourselves and everyone - when that will be - only God knows - but it will happen.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

 

Reply:

 

Is that the same Sridhar Maharaj as Prabhupada's god-brother? Oh and - who are you?

[Kulapavana]

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21

"So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. And Joshua smote them from Kadesh-barnea even unto Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even unto Gibeon." Joshua 10:40-41

 

 

 

"I find it to be disconcerting that you could be reading Prabhupada for over two decades - and still have these narrow views."

 

Srila Prabhupada was extremely generous in his inclusiveness and acceptance - both with his disciples, and with people of other faiths. I'm not. I'm not him. Sometimes you have to call a spade, a spade. Sure, I do not go out and speak about these subjects to outsiders - there is no need for that. But amongst ourselves we should be able to discuss such topics when needed, without fear of being called "bigots" or "anti-semites". I was obviously wrong.

 

I see some devotees go to great lengths for example trying to show that King Solomon was in madhurya rasa with God, based on his love poems (most likely written to one of his 500 wives)... to me, that is completely absurd and contrary to our Gaudiya teachings, but we all have our problems /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

do not try to be so inclusive that you become bogus. there are plenty of "inclusive" charlatans out there, with all kinds of hidden agenda. I'm sure in your case it is simply a sentiment for the tradition you were brought up in. there is nothing wrong with that. Peace!

 

Hare Krishna!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Well that was another turn like I've been noting - nice - but I am still waiting for real discussion here - I have pleaded my points well - and all I see you do is marginalize each point - as for your point about Prabhupada's 'generous inclusivness' - well it's a big part of His message - a part you choose not to acccept.

 

As for calling 'a spade a spade' etc., I think that is what I did in context to the tone which I admonished in Suchandra's posted misinformation about Talmud and the book of Zohar.

 

Did you at least read that bit of history regarding this 'book' which I posted several days ago?

 

In your quoting Joshua 6.21 - I think you ignored my answers on this point already given last night.

 

My sentiment as you describe it - isn't an attachment for the tradition I was brought up in - it is motivated by the words of Krishna and Prabhupada and an unbiased as possible study and contemplation of the five major faith's teachings in light of what I learn from Krishna and Prabhupada.

 

You go on and mix kuli yuga with this form of exclusivity and you will end up as a point or a counter-point - you will not be able to calm the masses - what to speak yourself.

 

Quote:

 

But amongst ourselves we should be able to discuss such topics when needed

 

Reply;

 

The web is not "amongst ourselves" - and there was no need for this discussion - till Suchandra posted what he did.

[Kulapavana]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald

Published: July 28, 2005 Author: AFP

 

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has dismissed any suggestion he feared for his life after Jewish extremists opposed to his looming Gaza pullout cast an ancient death curse on him.

 

"I am never frightened about this sort of thing, not in the past and not now," Mr Sharon told reporters during an official visit to Paris.

 

"This type of threat has not changed how I spend my time," he added.

 

In a northern Israeli cemetery presided over by Rabbi Yossef Dayan, about 20 radicals held a "pulsa dinura" ceremony at dawn last Friday imploring God to strike down the Prime Minister, local media has widely reported.

 

Far-right Israeli activists held a "pulsa dinura" to pray for the death of former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995, a few days before he was killed by a Jewish extremist for trying to make peace with the Palestinians.

 

Rabbi Dayan read out the curse at that ritual, too.

 

The group urged "the angels of destruction" to kill Mr Sharon, participants said, stressing that a human assassination attempt on the Prime Minister was "futile" given his massive security protection.

The ceremony took place near the grave of Shlomo Ben Yossef, a member of the ultra-nationalist Jewish movement Beitar, who was hanged in 1938 under British mandate Palestine for taking part in an attempted attack on an Arab bus.

[Kulapavana]

so... who do you think are the "angels of destruction" from that curse?

 

some call stuff like that "demon worship", and I tend to agree with them.

[theist]

I don't agree with it but "demon worship"? Were the brahmanas who met to take out Vena demon worshipers.

 

One thing about the Old Testament is I don't believe it was spoken by Jehovah. It seems obvious to me that many of the writers were speaking out their own minds and attaching God's name to give importance to their pronouncments. Of course I have never been able to read the OT all the way through let alone be a scholar on it so who knows. But I often hear the voices of tribal leaders who were considered prophets to their people and speaking in a totally Jewish context. God is not a Jew.