The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[Guest guest]

Home:

"The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran."

 

3 scriptures of the Yavanas.

 

And the Talmud???

 

He has nothing to say about that.

[Guest guest]

If you see a quote or several quotes from Bhaktivinode Thakur that contradict what you say, you use crooked logic in order to avoid accepting the direct meaning of Bhaktivinode Thakur's words.

 

If you see quotes from Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarswati Thakur which say that the Semites have an impersonalist concept of God, you use your crooked logic to assert that what he says is irrelevant.

 

If you see a direct quote from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada which says that the "testaments" are books for the meat eaters, you say it is irrelevant too. And you try to use your crooked logic to deny the direct and very explicit meaning of his words.

 

Don, if you want to believe in the Talmud or Santeria or Islam then go right ahead. You are a jiva soul and the jiva has free will.

[Guest guest]

quote:

<blockquote>

“…The Shastras [scriptures] of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasonings, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable…” [C.C., Adi, 17.169]

 

As I said - there are contradictory comments from Prabhupada himself – what did he mean in that C.C. quote?

 

He is saying:

 

“…As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable…”

 

We know his opinion on science and modern speculative philosophy – so he is not saying that he rejects these scriptures – rather he is saying it is being rejected by - "modern people".

</blockquote>

 

This is offensive.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada says Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran are the books of the meat eaters.

 

Prabhupada says their compilation has a history and that they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge.

 

Prabhupada says that although they have their arguments and reasonings, they are not very sound.

 

They are not containing transcendental knowledge.

 

Hence, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable.

 

Read what Prabhupada says again, and you will see that this was what he said.

 

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Dear 'unknown guest"

 

To whom is it offensive and - in what way?

 

If it’s because I’ve stated that Prabhupada himself made [seeming] contradictory statements - well if we accept your reasoning - then that is the case - but as noted - for one with proper vision - there are no such disparities…

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

See I knew you were fixated on THAT text! You better read a little more broadly in the Vani - or you'll never rise over the us vs. them mentality - be no more than you are and see that you’ve missed the point.

 

So if these groups do not convert to our path – then you think that they and their particular Faiths are of no value?

 

“ Being single-pointed in devotional service does not mean shutting out reality. Exclusivity can become sectarian if one focuses on relative truths or dedicates oneself to an ordinary person. But when the object of appreciation is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one attains the broadest vision, the vision of a mahatma. ” [Narada Bhakti Stotra, 6.7, purport]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I mentioned that text in my discussion - check this posting right above:

 

He didn't mention all sorts of things... [re: Guest]

08/01/05 01:57 AM

[gHari]

I found all that stuff interesting - and the Christians should too.

 

I don't understand why the guest is worried about his acaryas' reverence for the texts you referenced. These are the texts revered by the Christians and Jews. Are we not talking about them here?

 

If we can demonstrate that the original Hebrew uses the very same word for animal and human souls, then I think that is a giant step forward. Hopefully we were not so consumed with looking for fault that we missed such an obvious important fact.

 

I spoke a few days back with a Christian who drew a distinction between 'spirit' and 'soul'. I didn't know what he meant, but didn't want to get embroiled in semantics with him. Apparently he sees 'spirit' in his parrots, but not soul. I think this parrot raiser agreed he would never eat his parrots. Now if he can only discover why, he may understand the transmigration of the jiva soul.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

Dear gHari:

 

You are so correct - if only their point could be made - why do some have a limited aversion - to what is in-fact true?

 

I guess for a time - some people need to feel somehow special and extraordinary – exclusive. But in time they shall see:

 

He is a perfect yogi who, by comparison to his own self, sees the true equality of all beings, both in their happiness and distress, O Arjuna! [bG 6.32]

 

You are such a yogi – you have broad vision – none of this tunnel awareness for you!

 

Yer servant,

 

BDM

[gHari]

I spoke a few days back with a Christian who drew a distinction between 'spirit' and 'soul'. I didn't know what he meant, but didn't want to get embroiled in semantics with him. Apparently he sees 'spirit' in his parrots, but not soul. I think this parrot raiser agreed he would never eat his parrots. Now if he can only discover why, he may understand the transmigration of the jiva soul.

 

Could this 'spirit' thing be the nephesh?

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I simply see no contradiction – I can place faith in the words of God - no matter where I find them - if “guest” has built a case for exclusivity on a few writings of these previous acarya's - then I am sure that it is because - as you say - they have already concluded what all this means - so they look to read to see only the alleged evidence of an exclusive slant rather than an inclusive - the latter which being Prabhupada's mellow is naturally found all throughout his teachings.

 

Yer servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

No - Nephesh is soul and it refers to the animal as well as the human.

 

The usage is most often applied to humans – but the fact that it is applied to animals as well is inescapable – especially considering the places where it is rendered as referring to both.

 

Without doubt in my mind spirit and soul are the same thing.

 

This person may be thinking that both humans and animals have the - “breath of life” which in this case - they are probably rendering into a general - “spirit”.

 

Fact is - it’s the same word – with the same implications - no matter its application.

 

Yer servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

Read what Prabhupada says again

 

Reply:

 

It's All Relative isn't it?

 

I could tell you the same thing.

 

Why have you not stated it - what is the underlying issue here?

 

If you think that the oldest biblical scripture – the Torah supports animal killing you are not seeing the full context – and it in-fact teaches that such a way of life is in-gratuitous to the desire of God.

 

As noted in many passages his preference is for man to not eat flesh – but of course later texts were adjusted – as they have been in all traditions – so do we because of this lose sight of the original objectives of those texts?

 

These texts also support that soul is soul – no matter the bodily form it’s in.

 

I’ll say it again – we’ll not ‘convert’ everyone to our platform – so we have the next best task – to instill deeper love of God within people - using their terminology and - the original imports of the five major faith groups – which incidentally correlate to the vedic version.

 

All people can be encouraged onto a better spiritual position – encouraged by devotees - in one way or another – we have an insight to interest all the groups.

 

Is there a reason some refuse this task? Not any sound theological arguments can defeat this one – so what is it?

 

We must be somewhat afraid to do this – as we may think we may become contaminated or abused and ridiculed – but the fact is - one shall not be checked from one’s steady faith if we are preaching - with sound foundations.

 

If we are loyal to our guru-parampara and - if we want to help everyone then - we must be loyal to the - openness of faith - as the object of faith is shared by one and all.

 

Yer servant,

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

The Vaishnava Acharyas tell us that there is a difference between the beliefs of the religious meat eaters and mayavadis and pure devotion to the Lord (bhakti).

 

All I wanted to say is that the Vaishnava Acharyas do not consider the scriptures of the Semitic peoples to be on the same level as the sacred scriptures of Vaishnavism. The Talmud, the Koran, and the Old or New Testament, are books written by meat eaters.

 

GHari, on your website you have published SRI CAITANYA BHAGAVATA. There we can all read what Sri Chaitanyadeva had to say about the Yavanas.

 

http://geocities.com/caitanyamahaprabhu/bhagm23.htm

 

Lord Visvambhar (Sri Chaitanya) stood before Kazi's palace doors, His rising anger visible, with a voice like thunder He said, "Where is that mischief monger, Kazi, bring him right this minute to Me and cut his head off. I will obliterate the entire yavana race from the face of this earth, like I have previously done. Break open and smash everything. Break it! Break it!" These were the orders of the Supreme Lord. Who could disobey? The congregation was already exuberant and inebriated with the association of Lord Caitanya and the Holy Name, so such a command from the Lord was immediately put into action with great enthusiasm.

 

They ransacked the entire property. They went through the house and indiscriminantly broke anything that came their way. The garden lay limp and ravaged as if after a hurricane. Banana trees lay uprooted; broken branches hung from mango trees; the flower garden was stamped to the ground. Lakhs and lakhs of people overran the palace rooms and the grounds. Through out the entire operation the congregation was chanting, "Hari! Hari!" The Holy Name was their constant companion. They punctuated every move with Lord Hari's name.

 

Lord Visvambhar then said, "Now burn down everything. Put fire in the house, let the Kazi and all his men burn to death. I want to see what his king will do to Me. I also want to see who has the audacity to check Me. The God of death, time and death all are servants of my devoted servitors. They are created by my glance over material nature. I have advented mainly to propagate the congregational chanting of the Holy Name. If any one so much as tries to cause obstruction then I will annihilate him.

 

And even if the most lowly sinner participates in the chanting of the Lord's name then he shall be remembered by Me and saved. On the other hand even if, persons are performing austerity, renunciation, Vedic studies, yoga yet do not join the sankirtan movement they will certainly perish. So now do not fear, put fire to the house, I will bring about the total devastation of the entire race of Yavanas."

 

When they saw the Lord's wrath the devotees fell on their knees and raising their arms prayed to Him, "one of Your principle expansions is Lord Sankarsan, He never manifests His anger untimely; when the time is ready for the destruction of the material world then Rudra appears as Lord Sankarsana's incarnation and expansion. And after Rudra completes the work of annihilation or "pralaya" he again returns into Your transcendental body.

 

The work of annihilation is carried out by the expansion of Your expansion, so if you are angry then who can check Your wrath. The Vedas glorify You as "angerless and eternally blissful," our hearts cannot see You as minimize the Vedic injunction. Even Lord Brahma never attracts Your ire; creation, maintenance and annihilation of the material world are simply Your transcendental pastimes. Today You have sufficiently chastised that Kazi and if the next time he does anything again then You can destroy him. All glory to Lord Visvambhar, the Supreme Lord of all lords; all glory to Lord Gaurasundar the Lord of the Universe, the Lord of Lakshmidevi, who rests on Lord Ananta Sesa.

 

Lord Caitanya smiled after listening to their choice prayers and then began to dance and chant with everyone. The Kazi was justly dealt with; the Lord was pacified that congregational chanting in public will continue. He now led the procession back towards the town. Chanting and dancing began again with previous jubilance and exuberance. Joy once more filled the atmosphere. The devotees were now free from any fear or inhibition. They could chant their beloved Lord Krishna's name anytime.

 

The atheists were subdued, their spirit broken and the devotees were victorious and jubilant. They again became submerged in the ecstasy of chanting and dancing. Now all the devotees went ahead dancing and chanting and the Lord came up from behind. Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Lord Ananta and all the other demigods enjoyed themselves participating in the congregational chanting.

[Guest guest]

"... put fire to the house, I will bring about the total devastation of the entire race of Yavanas."

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

Break open and smash everything. Break it! Break it!" These were the orders of the Supreme Lord. Who could disobey? The congregation was already exuberant and inebriated with the association of Lord Caitanya and the Holy Name, so such a command from the Lord was immediately put into action with great enthusiasm.

 

They ransacked the entire property. They went through the house and indiscriminantly broke anything that came their way. The garden lay limp and ravaged as if after a hurricane.

 

Reply:

 

Well I only want to say this right now - why is the version different in the C.C.??

 

"Performing kirtana in this way, circumambulating through every nook and corner of the city, they finally reached the door of the Kazi.

 

Murmuring in anger and making a roaring sound, the people, under the protection of Lord Caitanya, became mad through such indulgence.

 

The loud sound of the chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra certainly made the Kazi very much afraid, and he hid himself within his room. Hearing the people thus protesting, murmuring in great anger, the Kazi would not come out of his home.

 

Naturally some of the people who were very much agitated began to retaliate the Kazi’s actions by wrecking his house and flower garden. Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura has elaborately described this incident.

 

Thereafter, when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu reached the Kazi’s house, He sat down by the doorway and sent some respectable persons to call for the Kazi." [C.C. Adi. 139-143]

 

Your quote says:

 

"Lord Visvambhar (Sri Chaitanya) stood before Kazi's palace doors, His rising anger visible, with a voice like thunder He said, "Where is that mischief monger, Kazi, bring him right this minute to Me and cut his head off. I will obliterate the entire yavana race from the face of this earth, like I have previously done. Break open and smash everything. Break it! Break it!" These were the orders of the Supreme Lord. Who could disobey?..."

 

Well that is fully different than anything I've seen in Prabhupada's translations/teachings - thus I have to wonder about this quote!

 

Read this:

 

"As he read the thousand names of the Lord, in due course the holy name of Lord Nrsimha appeared. When Caitanya Mahaprabhu heard the holy name of Lord Nrsimha, He became fully absorbed in thought.

 

In the mood of Lord Nrsimhadeva, Lord Caitanya ran through the city streets, club in hand, ready to kill all the atheists.

 

Seeing Him appearing very fierce in the ecstasy of Lord Nrsimha, people ran from the street and fled here and there, afraid of His anger.

 

Seeing the people so afraid, the Lord came to His external senses and thus returned to the house of Srivasa Thakura and threw away the club.

 

The Lord became morose and said to Srivasa Thakura, “When I adopted the mood of Lord Nrsimhadeva, people were greatly afraid. Therefore I stopped, since causing fear among people is an offense.”

 

Srivasa Thakura replied, “Anyone who takes Your holy name vanquishes ten million of his offenses immediately.

 

“There was no offense in Your appearing as Nrsimhadeva. Rather, any man who saw You in that mood was immediately liberated from the bondage of material existence.”

 

After saying this, Srivasa Thakura worshiped the Lord, who was then greatly satisfied and returned to His own home." [C.C. Adi, 17.91-98]

 

So I wonder about the literal nature of your quote - whatever it is.

 

"Break open and smash everything. Break it! Break it!" These were the orders of the Supreme Lord"

 

OR:

 

"Naturally some of the people who were very much agitated began to retaliate the Kazi’s actions by wrecking his house and flower garden. Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura has elaborately described this incident.

 

Thereafter, when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu reached the Kazi’s house, He sat down by the doorway and sent some respectable persons to call for the Kazi."

 

Two - contradictory versions - of the same pastime?

 

Yer servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

I will bring about the total devastation of the entire race of Yavanas

 

Reply:

 

Well five hundred years later there are still all sorts of godless people on the earth – and even in bharta varsha!

 

So what went wrong?

 

In the way that you've been quoting - I almost think you’re in favor of killing demons as opposed to - destroying their demoniac tendencies?

 

Am I hearing that you may want to be the instrument for this “total devastation of the entire race of Yavanas” – I sure hope not!

 

Caitanya Mahaprabhu does not liberate any demons by killing them – and neither do his followers – Prabhu - you know this…

 

BDM

[gHari]

Guest, I doubt the Christians or Jews or even the Muslims for that matter care what the acaryas or Lord Caitanya may have said or written or whispered about their faith. Therefore such opinions can hardly have any relevance to this thread. That is, unless I missed some kind of tangent in the middle of the thread, the thread is about the people who believe in the devil, horns and all.

 

I saw 'crooked logic' and read 'arrogant'. Am I wrong?

 

[Guest guest]

The quotes from Chaitanya Bhagavata are authentic, and as I said, they are posted on gHari's web site. The link is there above. The same translation of Chaitanya Bhagavata is available elsewhere on the web. It is authentic, and what we read in this translation by Kusakratha is also stated in the other translations. That is, the Lord said He would destroy the entire race of the Yavanas.

 

Srila Prabhupada in fact says, "Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura has elaborately described this incident."

 

Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura, of course, is the author of Chaitanya Bhagavata.

 

In Chaitanya Charitamrta, which you quoted, Srila Krishnadas Kaviraj says he is merely following behind Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura, who is the Vyasa of Gaura-lila.

 

What is my point, in mentioning this episode from the lila of Mahaprabhu?

 

It is that the religion and the sacred scriptures of Vaishnavism are not on the same level as the religion and books written by meat eaters such as the Talmud, the Koran, and the Old and New Testament.

 

Indeed Mahaprabhu did consider annihilating the meat eaters, "like I have previously done" (to use his words). But the devotees encoraged him to be peaceful in this Kali-yuga Avatara form, so he desisted from his initial feeling that he should annihilate the Yavanas.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

I saw 'crooked logic' and read 'arrogant'. Am I wrong?

 

Reply:

 

Nope!

 

Yer servant,

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Well I see none of this in Prabhupada's books or Vani - and - whatever the history - you'll just remain a 'counter-point to the point' of the "yavanas"?

 

Why not stop and think where your current approach will lead you...

[Guest guest]

Isn't it arrogance to claim that "all religions are equal" when we know for a fact that Mahaprabhu did not regard the religion of the Mohammedans as a pure, perfect religion? Why try and muddy the waters, and to promote the notion that "all roads lead to Rome", or Godhead, when we know for a fact that Mahaprabhu told the Kazi that if Muslims kill cows (accoding to the methods described in the Koran) then the Muslims will go to hell for the sin of cow-killing. It is there in Chaitanya Charitamrta. The Muslim religious practice of cow-killing, and kosher cow-killing too, for that matter, are BAD. Am I arrogant and bad for saying it is bad to follow a bad religion?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

These quotes are more well known [and more practical too]:

 

The Vedas mainly deal with the subject of the three modes of material nature. Rise above these modes, O Arjuna. Be transcendental to all of them. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the Self.

 

All purposes that are served by the small pond can at once be served by the great reservoirs of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them. [bG 2.45-46]

 

When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard. [bG 2.53]

 

Of course there is this:

 

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear. [bG 18.66]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

You are not seeing the point - and yes I get your point and no maybe all roads don't lead to rome - but rome is rome - no matter the road you take to get there...

[Guest guest]

Look, you started this thread about "The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics".

 

My point is really very simple.

 

Satan is a story. Nothing more than that.

 

The Bible stories of Adam and Eve, and the story about the need for the Crucifixion of the Messiah, are "concocted" stories or some "very wild ideas" made up by "some men of small intelligence", according to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

The people who believe in different versions of these false, wild ideas are creating a disturbance in the animate world. And the root of the problem is that their beliefs are wrong.

 

Is it arrogant to say that.

 

Turn on the television and look at the news, and then ask yourself if the world would be a better place if there was no such thing as Judaism, Islam and Christianity. You may feel those faiths are good. But I think they are bad.