The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Objective study shows that the essential teachings of the biblical faiths actually support a flesh free life - but Kuli yuga time and circumstances have ordered humankind in general - to be more inclined into flesh eating.

 

In these other traditions - where we see a concession for it – we do not [thus] forget that the original and ultimate objective is to - refrain from it - and that our world will see this day - is to be fully realized [according to biblical texts] - during the coming messianic age – during that time - there will be no flesh eaters – allegedly - not even among the animals.

 

When that shall be - is another matter - but the fact is - the texts of the "meat eaters" admonish them to stop that practice.

 

If we cannot learn the universal truths within these ‘other traditions’ and thus relate them [with a vedic perspective] to the ‘theologically cautious’ within those traditions - [from their own perspective] - then we shall fail to reach the vast majority of people – it is that simple.

 

Say I am some person not inclined to do my homework prior to forming an opinion and let's say that I've read materials online and elsewhere and I have listened to lectures from some Hindus - wherein all these - it is claimed that the 'original' Rig-Veda says that eating meat is OK and that - there is even something in manusamita to this effect - I even saw what looked to be real quotes – so what does one believe then? Just see...

 

Again - in our world of contradictions...one must have sincere faith and good patience to learn…

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

You at last mention the point in this thread - there are some biblical ideas – [that are not false] - but which have no literal interpretations - yes these literal misinterpretations are now being used by thugs - all about the world - to mess things up.

 

While Satan may be a myth - the effects of those that accept this myth - those 'effects' are not so unreal.

 

But taking your approach - is like putting out the fires with gasoline...

 

BDM

 

[Guest guest]

Don,

 

This discussion has become rather heated and that is not what I was aiming for. You originally spoke about "politics" and "myth" and my view is that the myths of the Semitic religions are doing more bad than good for the world.

 

The soul of a person is pure and good. But people get brainwashed by false teachers and they start to believe the false idea that on this earth there is a war going on between good and evil. God and Satan. But this is only a story. Life isn't like this really. Life is an emanation from Param-Brahman, Sri Krishna, who is beautiful and good.

 

All life is sacred and full of wonder. But mankind has concocted all sorts of false ideas and created a hell on earth.

 

You said, "during the coming messianic age – during that time - there will be no flesh eaters "

 

The reality is, these Semitic religions tell people it is OK to kill cows and kill whales, and pollute the seas that are the blood stream of mother earth. And the misguided people (and future generations) will suffer karma for what they are doing in the world in the name of their religions. May Yamaraj have mercy on them (Yamaraj is an aspect of Visnu, according to Bhagavad gita)

 

In regard to the "messianic age", I think John Lennon got it right when he said, "there ain't no Jesus who's gonna come from the sky".

 

The story about the messianic age is all just a collosal illusion. And while people are waiting for Jesus to come they are busily creating a new hell on earth.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Everyone has seen the paintings of Jesus holding the lamb - we all see look of security in the lamb - so let's then introduce the flesh eating factor.

 

Why is Jesus holding the lamb - is he going to eat it?

 

Just see - these two ideas - placed side by side like this evoke a kind of disgust [especially in christians] - the two ideas are opposing!

 

 

 

Is it not so? I of course know that Jesus isn't preparing to eat that lamb - but the picture is to show two contrasted ideas in a lucid interplay.

[Guest guest]

I do not think that Christians preach hate. I think that they believe in one true God, the creator of all. They believe that God loves all people for he has created them all in this image. Satan is tempation. He enticed Eve to bite into the apple in the garden of Eden. He is the one that posions the soul of humans and cause them to rape, kill, cheat, lie, steal, ect. Hateful things never come from the Christan God Jesus Christ. He is the embodiment of love and purity and all things good. If a person is preaching hate or discrimation they are not Christian and they have distorited the words of the bible into something vile.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

This discussion has become rather heated and that is not what I was aiming for. You originally spoke about "politics" and "myth" and my view is that the myths of the Semitic religions are doing more bad than good for the world.

 

Reply:

 

It’s not all that heated and yes there are some who are using the texts out of context to further a political and/or other materialistic end – and in some cases as noted - an upset to the order of things is set into action.

 

That is the point of this string – but to be fair - just because there are so many people who do not understand those traditions - but that nonetheless employ them for selfish ends – well that doesn’t mean that we thus trash the whole tradition.

 

Quote:

 

The soul of a person is pure and good. But people get brainwashed by false teachers and they start to believe the false idea that on this earth there is a war going on between good and evil. God and Satan. But this is only a story. Life isn't like this really. Life is an emanation from Param-Brahman, Sri Krishna, who is beautiful and good.

 

Reply:

 

You are correct – but there is a struggle of good and evil [duality] in the material world [what you been reading?] – and without doubt it is reflected in the pages of the Vedic texts – but no - there is no literal Satan [or any being like that fictional character] – but there are demons - both seen and unseen.

 

Yes it is a “story” and if we understood these things in their proper context – then there is great value therein.

 

Quote:

 

All life is sacred and full of wonder. But mankind has concocted all sorts of false ideas and created a hell on earth.

 

Reply:

 

The concocted hell on earth is due to mass ignorance of the modes of material nature and the influence of kuli yuga – and when humanity is playing into the hands of quarrel - in the modes of passion and ignorance – one may see anyone in that maya - concoct ideas?

 

Not everyone - in all traditions is lost. It is that simple.

 

Quote:

 

You said, "during the coming messianic age – during that time - there will be no flesh eaters "

 

The reality is, these Semitic religions tell people it is OK to kill cows and kill whales, and pollute the seas that are the blood stream of mother earth. And the misguided people (and future generations) will suffer karma for what they are doing in the world in the name of their religions. May Yamaraj have mercy on them (Yamaraj is an aspect of Visnu, according to Bhagavad gita)

 

Reply:

 

Yamaraja is not an aspect of Vishnu – he is a demigod who is a servant of Krishna – he has a special agency with paramatma. Do you have exact citations for that?

 

“Semitic religions” do not teach that this destruction is ok - as you claim - some people following those teach that.

 

All humanity is en-masse failing to follow the precepts in the world’s major scriptures [choosing to quarrel instead] – that is a sad fact – and - without careful guarding - we devotees aren’t even immune to this propensity.

 

Quote:

 

In regard to the "messianic age", I think John Lennon got it right when he said, "there ain't no Jesus who's gonna come from the sky".

 

Reply:

 

No Jesus isn’t coming back again – if you read here in this string you would see that I’ve noted that – Torah teaches that the [still expected] messiah is going to be an ordinary man – no supernatural stuff etc., but there IS going to be a messianic age – and one could say that it actually started in 1486!

 

Quote:

 

The story about the messianic age is all just a collosal illusion. And while people are waiting for Jesus to come they are busily creating a new hell on earth.

 

Reply:

 

No it isn’t illusion and - yes – many people are creating hell to “hasten his coming”.

 

BDM

 

 

[Guest guest]

quote by Don:

<blockquote>

... but there is a struggle of good and evil [duality] in the material world

</blockquote>

This is typical, of people who have been conditioned to see the world from a Judeo/Christian perspective.

 

In the Vedic texts of India, there is an understanding that things are not black and white, good and bad. In fact we are very rarely faced with a clearcut choice between good and bad. For instance, when you eat, is it good to eat four mouthfulls of rice or fourteen. Is four good, and fourteen bad? Life is not governed by the good/bad duality. There are a multitude of paths and choices people can make. You can choose to go to Indra's world, or Shiva's world. There are oodles of options open to the jiva soul.

[Guest guest]

Don:

<blockquote>

Yamaraja is not an aspect of Krishna – he is a demigod who is a servant of Krishna – he has a special agency with paramatma.

</blockquote>

Please study the Bhagavad gita more carefully.

 

Sri Krishna said:

anantas casmi naganam varuno yadasam aham

pitrnam aryama casmi yamah samyamatam aham

TRANSLATION

Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, lord of death.

Bh.gita 10.29

 

And by the way, this is the Kali-yuga, not kuli yuga.

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

In the Vedic texts of India, there is an understanding that things are not black and white, good and bad. In fact we are very rarely faced with a clearcut choice between good and bad.

 

Reply:

 

I can apply that to this discussion about other faith groups.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

[i meant to say vishnu- I corrected that in my posting]

 

Ok here you are out-of-context - this chapter ten of Gita is not stating anymore than the fact that - the best of everything - represents Krishna

 

For example - Krishna isn't the shark etc., you have taken these points out of context - so as it is - Yamaraja is representative of Krishna - not an aspect of Him.

 

[Guest guest]

<blockquote>

Quote:

 

The story about the messianic age is all just a collosal illusion. And while people are waiting for Jesus to come they are busily creating a new hell on earth.

 

Reply:

No it isn’t illusion and - yes – many people are creating hell to “hasten his coming”.

 

BDM

</blockquote>

 

There is no incarnation or messiah who is predicted to appear in the future, in this age of Kali. Sri Chaitanya has already appeared.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

</blockquote>

Don:

 

Ok here you are out-of-context - this chapter ten of Gita is not stating anymore than the fact that - the best of everything - represents Krishna

 

For example - Krishna isn't the shark etc., you have taken these points out of context - so as it is - Yamaraja is representative of Krishna - not an aspect of Him.

 

</blockquote>

 

Please study the Bhagavad gita more carefully.

 

Sri Krishna said:

anantas casmi naganam varuno yadasam aham

pitrnam aryama casmi yamah samyamatam aham

TRANSLATION

Of the celestial Naga snakes I am Ananta; of the aquatic deities I am Varuna. Of departed ancestors I am Aryama, and among the dispensers of law I am Yama, lord of death.

Bh.gita 10.29

-----------------------------

 

This is hair splitting, but since you persist in arguing this point, I must assert that your reading of the B.g. text is wrong. Sorry.

 

the word "aham" in this verse means "I am" in sanskrit.

 

Krishna, the speaker of the Gita at Kurukshetra, says, "I am Yama, lord of death".

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

…It is impossible for anyone to surmount the two-pronged attack of daivi maya—that is, her covering potency and her throwing potency. The more we try to conquer this divine energy, the more powerfully she defeats us by exciting us through the mode of passion and punishing us with the threefold miseries, culminating in all-devouring death. This struggle between the divine energy and the evil forces is eternal. Our inability to understand this struggle has led us to lament, “In the dispensation of providence, mankind cannot have any rest.”… [RTW 1.1]

 

Thus some label it a struggle against good and evil.

 

…For those who are sinful, atheistic, foolish and deceitful, it is very difficult to transcend the duality of desire and hate.… [bG 7.28, purport]

 

All living beings in all the planets of this universe, including the presiding deities of all the planets, are fully under the control of the Lord. They work like birds caught in a net, who cannot move independently. [sB 6.12.8]

 

Don’t the demigods and the demons fight perpetually?

 

But these demons are not fallen angels...

[Guest guest]

Don

<blockquote>

Don’t the demigods and the demons fight perpetually?

</blockquote>

 

Well, no, actually.

 

They sometimes cooperate, as when the churned the ocean to get nectar. And in fact they are related - Kasyapa rishi is the projenitory of both clans.

 

Often Visnu favours the demons over the devas. As in the case of Virochana, who wanted to ban the worship of the Devas so that only Visnu would be worshipped in his kingdom. The devas killed Virochan, and Vishnu sided with the demons after that. Also, Vrtra asura was a devotee and he chastised Indra for being a materialist. Indra won the war, and the devotee Vrtra was killed. Krishna also defeated Indra, and even "the Creator".

 

It is a mistake to believe that the Devas are "good" and the Asuras are all bad. This is not what the puranas teach. In fact they teach that people are in mixed modes of nature, with mixed amounts of passion, ignorance and goodness in them. People are not simply "satanic" or "holy".

 

 

[gHari]

 

<center>YamarAja said: My dear servants, you have accepted me as the Supreme, but factually I am not. [sB 6.3.12]</center>

<center>Since ViSNu is above YamarAja, the ViSNudUtas are above the YamadUtas. [Purport SB 6.3.17]</center>

Purport to Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.13.15:<blockquote>According to SrI Caitanya MahAprabhu, anyone who is conversant in the transcendental knowledge, or the science of Godhead, be he a brAhmaNa or a zUdra, a householder or a sannyAsI, is eligible to become a spiritual master. Even in the ordinary moral codes (maintained by CANakya PaNDita, the great politician and moralist) there is no harm in taking lessons from a person who may be by birth less than a zUdra.

 

This is one part of the answer. The other is that Vidura was not actually a zUdra. He was to play the part of a so-called zUdra for one hundred years, being cursed by MaNDUka Muni. He was the incarnation of YamarAja, one of the twelve mahAjanas, on the level with such exalted personalities as BrahmA, NArada, Siva, Kapila, BhISma, PrahlAda, etc. Being a mahAjana, it is the duty of YamarAja to preach the cult of devotion to the people of the world, as NArada, BrahmA, and other mahAjanas do. But YamarAja is always busy in his plutonic kingdom punishing the doers of sinful acts. YamarAja is deputed by the Lord to a particular planet, some hundreds of thousands of miles away from the planet of earth, to take away the corrupt souls after death and convict them in accordance with their respective sinful activities.

 

Thus YamarAja has very little time to take leave from his responsible office of punishing the wrongdoers. There are more wrongdoers than righteous men. Therefore YamarAja has to do more work than other demigods who are also authorized agents of the Supreme Lord. But he wanted to preach the glories of the Lord, and therefore by the will of the Lord he was cursed by MaNDUka Muni to come into the world in the incarnation of Vidura and work very hard as a great devotee. Such a devotee is neither a zUdra nor a brAhmaNa. He is transcendental to such divisions of mundane society, just as the Personality of Godhead assumes His incarnation as a hog, but He is neither a hog nor a BrahmA. He is above all mundane creatures. The Lord and His different authorized devotees sometimes have to play the role of many lower creatures to claim the conditioned souls, but both the Lord and His pure devotees are always in the transcendental position. When YamarAja thus incarnated himself as Vidura, his post was officiated by AryamA, one of the many sons of Kazyapa and Aditi. The Adityas are sons of Aditi, and there are twelve Adityas. AryamA is one of the twelve Adityas, and therefore it was quite possible for him to take charge of the office of YamarAja during his one hundred years' absence in the form of Vidura. The conclusion is that Vidura was never a zUdra, but was greater than the purest type of brAhmaNa.</blockquote>

 

6.1.48 devaH—the demigod YamarAja

 

6.3.2 yamasya—of YamarAja; devasya—the demigod in charge of judgment

 

6.3.11 devaH—the demigod; prajA-saMyamanaH yamaH—Lord YamarAja, who controls the living entities

 

10.72.10p King YudhiSthira himself was born of the demigod YamarAja.

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Splitting hairs – or reading what’s actually there in chapter ten of Gita:

 

…Of whatever we find, good or bad, the origin is Krsna. Nothing can manifest in this material world which is not in Krsna. That is knowledge; although we know that things are differently situated, we should realize that everything flows from Krsna.… [bG 10.4-5, purport]

 

…The common man who has no love for Krsna cannot always think of Krsna; therefore he has to think materially. Arjuna is considering the mode of thinking of the materialistic persons of this world. Because materialists cannot understand Krsna spiritually, they are advised to concentrate the mind on physical things and try to see how Krsna is manifested by physical representations.… [bG 10.17, purport]

 

… There are eleven Rudras, of whom Sankara, Lord Siva, is predominant. He is the incarnation of the Supreme Lord in charge of the modes of ignorance in the universe. Among the demigods Kuvera is the chief treasurer, and he is a representation of the Supreme Lord. Meru is a mountain famed for its rich natural resources. … [bG 10.23, purport]

 

… These representations of Krsna only give hints of His greatness.… [bG 10.24, purport]

 

… In Vedic literature, the king is considered to be the representative of God. In this age, however, with the corruption of the principles of religion, monarchy decayed and is now finally abolished.… [bG 10.27, purport]

 

So in this way it is well explained in Prabhupada’s purports – that Arjuna was asking for this description to capture the minds of the materialistic peoples – that needed:

 

to see how Krsna is manifested by physical representations

 

With the exception of Siva – they are all described as materially representative of Krishna.

 

You might be splitting hairs here – not me…

 

BDM

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

After the cooperation - the fight resumes...

[Guest guest]

Don,

you might like to also remember that Krishna's grandson Aniruddha married the daughter of Banasura named Usha. Because he was not happy about the union of Aniruddha and Usa, Banasura fought against Krishna and his armies. Lord Shiva, who carries a pitchfork and has the "satanic" snakes wrapped around him, came and fought against Krishna to protect his devotee Banasura. But Shiva and his huge army of asuras, ghosts and demons was defeated.

 

Shiva, it seems, is very friendly with the demons.

 

Anyway, in the end Aniruddha and Usa were united and they stayed together.

 

Aniruddha is a form of Visnu, , as you may know. This is explained in Chaitanya Charitamrta.

 

So, Lord Aniruddha Vishnu married a demon lady!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

It is a mistake to believe that the Devas are "good" and the Asuras are all bad

 

Reply:

 

Not a mistake I make....

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

So apply this logic to the other faiths?

[Guest guest]

Krishna said, "yamah samyamatam aham" or in other words, "I am Yama, lord of death".

 

These are Krishna's direct statement in his own words, in Bhagavad gita.

 

Of course the Gaudiya Vaishnavas understand the philosophy of achintya-bheda-abheda-tattva, and understand that the Devas such as Yama are "inconceivably simultaneously different from and non-different from Krishna". This is a very basic point of philosophy.

 

[Guest guest]

quote:<blockquote>

So apply this logic to the other faiths?

</blockquote>

Apply what logic? Do you think I'm arguing that other faiths are "bad" and that Vaishnavism is "good"?

 

I am not

 

What I am saying is that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are based on myths and misconceptions.

 

Myths such as the story that Satan exists. Or that God needed to be born on earth as Jesus and be crucified in order to free man from sin.

 

These are merely stories, or "wild ideas".

 

That is what I am saying.

 

And in saying this I'm following the line of thought that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur preached.

 

That is all.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Ghari posted Yamaraja's EXACT words:

 

Yamaraja said: My dear servants, you have accepted me as the Supreme, but factually I am not. [sB 6.3.12]

 

Do you need more? Bringing achintya-bheda-abheda-tattva into it - is more reaching - or you can also apply it fair - like to the other traditions?

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

Krishna said, "yamah samyamatam aham" or in other words, "I am Yama, lord of death".

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Those faiths are not based on myths - they may now follow some allegorical parts of the texts thinking they are literal - to many Krishna is a myth and the vast bulk of the vedic stories are called myth - it is a matter of vision - but the basis of these other faiths - is genuine.