The Origins of the Satan Myth and impact to global politics

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Interesting that you blathered that then left?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

http://dental_spy_implants.blog.ca

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

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Look at the other thread and this devotee has a problem regarding spiritual activity in his ISKCON temple.

 

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Which thread - which devotee and what activity - please?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

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...ruminating these rotting news...

 

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Well in a way - those discussions have context.

 

The subject matter of this thread - is indirectly related to a kali yuga colored fallout from the Satan myth - and - it is a fact that such freakish demons are everywhere in this world - so there aught to be some lucid discussions on the issue.

 

Without doubt ‘good people recoil’ from hearing these things - but more and more - we are seeing the good people going bad - or - the bad people going worse.

 

Did you consider that those around such people may need these discussions…not everyone reading here is a devotee of Krishna?

 

Why are discussions of - kali yuga factors surrounding social issues - a waste of time?

 

At least here – these get the Vedic perspective!

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

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The reason I was critical of other religions is simple. Turn on the TV and look at the news. See what Judaism, Christianity and Islam are doing for the world.

 

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You are judging entire faith groups because of what you hear on the news – hearing that some of the more prolific so-called followers of these faiths have captured the world’s attention in an arena that is indeed a threat to all – you denounce the entire faith tradition.

 

I see that there are people of all faith groups who have to contend with the ill decisions of others in their faith tradition – even amongst Hindus and yes even in ISKCON - there is a history of Kali Yuga influence!

 

Do we want people to reject Prabhupada’s teachings - because the Hare Krishna’s cannot seem to get it together?

 

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Some people believe that if someone believes in God then he is a better person than an atheist.

 

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I am present in every living entity as the Supersoul. If someone neglects or disregards that Supersoul everywhere and engages himself in the worship of the Deity in the temple, that is simply imitation. [sB 3.29.21]

 

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But it is a fact that the atheist Buddhists have never gone on Crusades or Jihads or Six Day Wars against anyone. Buddhist nations have waged war but Buddhists don't think they are doing it to "punish the unbelievers".

 

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You cannot say that those practices are a part of modern biblical faith groups – some deviate the teachings and thus make issues – but don’t blame all for the actions of some. What about the Hindu national Party’s tug of war with its counterpoint – isn’t that a part of this point? Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India are going to fight for how long? Actually it seems that they are doing better these days…

 

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This new pope was previously the head of the modern day Inquisition and he has dealt harshly with heretics such as the leftist "liberation theology" priests of Nicaragua.

 

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Oh please – and if you knew his was a task to see that the teachings of the Church were not being changed – and if you were to see devotees making unwarranted changes to the tradition would you be an inquisitor if you were charged with the task of seeing that that doesn’t take place?

 

Yes this present pope has a harsh reputation from the past – they called him the "bulldog" didn’t they?

 

But let’s see how he goes forward – you are judging too soon.

 

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Now he wants to see a revival of faith in Europe, and he wants to see crosses installed in public places.

 

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Well see if you cannot make connections to the church and bring a revival of faith for all – build some bridges if you can.

 

This pope hasn’t done away with the interfaith dialogue started by Pope John Paul II – and he isn’t going to.

 

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But secularism is a stong force in Europe

 

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… As Kali-yuga advances, people are becoming godless and taking up so-called secularism … [sB 5.26.15, purport]

 

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because the people are conscious of the crimes that have been committed in Europe in the name of the Christian religion, so I doubt this Pope will get many town councils to agree to put up Crosses anywhere.

 

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Dwelling on that past isn’t going to keep it in the past – standing afar off from those you do not approve of in the faith department isn’t going to mold the future with your influence.

 

Please do not underestimate kali yuga in all this.

 

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This pope is shown heaps of respect... but why?

 

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Then based on that - why should I show you respect – I don’t even know who you are…

 

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Why show respect for these sorts of people. He talks about how he wants "peace" in the world but given the chance he would certainly take Europe back into the dark ages of Christendom where witches were burned at the stake.

 

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Hey - you can see the future?!

 

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And the same goes for the "Jewish extremists" who have stolen the land of Palestinians and who justify that by saying Yahweh gave them Palestine as their homeland.

 

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More generalizations – why more baiting of issues - rather than working with them?

 

Not all Israelis are “Jewish extremists” – and there is a destiny working out here.

 

One who cannot see that – has other issues.

 

We shall see how these problems work out – but I guess we cannot count on you to do anything to help.

 

I guess it’s safer to judge from the sidelines – preaching the same type of exclusivity as those so-called extremist faiths that you wish to dispose of?

 

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Vaishnavism says this world is not our home and none of us have a right to attack other people and kill them.

 

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Never been a war in Vedic Culture? Didn’t the Pandavas have a right to attack their enemies? Didn’t they fight for land?

 

It’s all in the context deal soul…

 

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But the barbarians scriptures say it is OK to murder people if they are unbelievers. So, as I've said before, in my opinion their religion is a concocted and false ideology based on lies and fables.

 

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We have been over this point before – read back in this thread…

[Guest guest]

"it is easier to live a life in illusion rather than a moment in true Krsna consciousness " IS IT ?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Well you tell us - and where does this quote come from?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Oh mysterious guest it's interesting that you blathered 'that' then left?

[Kulapavana]

Don, you need the therapy... of the Holy Name /images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

(actually we all do...)

 

and PLEASE! do not use my post to add another five pages to this thread, I would never forgive myself!... lol!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Hari Bol!

 

What are you talking about - what post?

 

Five more pages of what?

 

Did 'you' make that comment about my being a guinea pig for the ID chip?

 

Of course - I know I need the holy name - and yes - that holy name - is the only "therapy" I need...but that doesn't change the fact that I have been implanted with a tracking device [and I was questioning why someone made a bent joke about it]!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"...We have great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. We accept him as powerful incarnation of Krishna, as much as we accept Lord Buddha. We can adjust the Buddhists, Christians, and even the Mohammedans to our KC movement, so if the religious heads of these faiths try to understand our philosophy, certainly there will be great impetus in the matter of spiritual rejuvenation of the world..." [June 03, 1969]

[theist]

but [do not]??

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

Not sure how the [do not] got in there - thanx!

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

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if the religious heads of these faiths try to understand our philosophy, certainly there will be great impetus in the matter of spiritual rejuvenation of the world

 

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The point may also be that - we should do the same - at least for preaching purposes...

[theist]

I like it and am going to use it for my new signature. It is from a letter correct?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction. [George W. Bush]

 

Looks like America isn't a free nation! At least according to Bush!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Correct - it was a letter to Syamasundara...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

 

"The Multifarious Incarnations of the Lord"

[Guest guest]

 

What we see in the image above pretty much sums up most of what I find exasperating and disturbing about modern day ISKCON. Krishna Consciousness is Krishna Consciousness. Illusion and untruth are something different from that - but now we see that maya and misconception are being preached instead of the Absolute Truth that the Acharyas came into this world to teach.

 

They say a picture tells a thousand words. Let me limit myself to five hundred words about this picture above.

 

Some people think that in order to make Krishna Consciousness acceptable to foreigners Krishna Consciousness should be marketed as as set of beliefs which will be acceptable in the world marketplace of religions. In the Gita, Krishna says that fools deride him when he descends into this world and that the fools think he is a man and not the Lord. The Gita explains that the Lord descends as an avatar and that there are many different avatars who descend in different places and times. So, to make a compromise with foreign religious traditions, some clown puts an image of Jesus into a collage of images of the avatars. Mohammed gets included too and Mohammed is holding a book which we presume is the Koran.

 

The thing is, Mohammed specifically denied the idea that God ever incarnates. Mohammed preached that God has no personal face or features. God, in Mohammed's opinion, is an infinite, formless being.

 

Jesus' theology, also, is something like Mohammedism since it postulates that the "Father" is an omnipresent all-knowing and formless being. Jesus life and teachings are a continuation or culmination of the Hebrew culture and prophet tradition, and in scriptures of this tradition they say that you cannot see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). As far as I am aware, no Christian denomination anywhere has (or probably ever will) recognize Krishna as "God the Father". The most that anyone of us could ever hope to get from them is that they might some day accept that the aspect of God we call "impersonal Brahman" is the same as "God the Father". So in other words, we might one day find that some additional people who think God is impersonal may graciously consent to agree that their impersonal god is the same god as the impersonal god called "nirvisesha brahma" in the Vedanta. People such as the Catholic monk Bede Griffiths (http://www.bedegriffiths.com/) follow this line of thought... but so what? The man is an impersonalist.

 

What value is there in this sort of so called "preaching" or interfaith dialogue with impersonalist Muslims and Christians and other people whose die-hard impersonalism and tendencies for mental speculation are a wall that block you from speaking the direct message of true Gaudiya Vaishnava Siddhanta (philosophy)?

The fact is, a clown or artist can create a collage of pictures of Vishnu's avatars and insert Mohammed among the avatars, but anyone who knows anything about what Mohammed taught will tell you that he didn't believe God ever incarnates. Not only that, but the artist clown has framed Mohammed himself amongst the avatars when in fact Mohammed himself (and indeed all Mohammedans) will be offended if you were to suggest that Mohammed was an incarnation of God Himself. Mohammed believed God is impersonal and it is wrong to misrepresent his teaching by suggesting he believes in the same notion of a "personal" God that the Vaishnavas believe in.

 

This kind of image, this kind of "preaching", is harmful.

 

The distorted version of real Krishna Consciousness is spreading in many mutant forms throughout the world. In many ways these mutations are comparable to the bogus sahajiya cults of Bengal that purport to be genuine spiritual successions descending from Mahaprabhu Sri Chaitanyadeva.

 

And if you say this preaching of misconception is a harmful thing, since it is creating a mirror-maze or a false web of illusions, then you get branded as a preacher of sectarianism.

 

Well, so be it. This picture obscures the truth of Krishna Consciousness and substitutes a hodge-podge in its place. In Bengali, we can say you are making a kitchuri. A hodge podge porridge. And this kitchuri you are making and giving to the public is not prashad and it won't do any good for anyone.

 

- Murali

 

 

[gHari]

<blockquote><blockquote>"Jesus' theology, also, is something like Mohammedism since it postulates that the "Father" is an omnipresent all-knowing and formless being."</blockquote></blockquote>

There are even personal descriptions of helmets and things somewhere in the Bible. But I never ever got the impression from the words of Jesus that his Father was impersonal. It is true that we need not repackage Sri Caitanya for Christians. It all fits quite nicely as it is. The truth is that the truth is the greatest sales pitch.

 

The way to sell to Christians is not with words, but with genuine love of God. If we want to preach then let us first taste our own nectar. They do not know the benefits of loving God, no one is telling them. And a picture is worth a thousand words, that is, the devotee intoxicated with love of God is worth a thousand words. They have words now, but they do them no good.

 

 

p.s. Those Biblical references certainly don't imply a formless Deity. On the contrary, God reveals that He does indeed have a face in the first quote (Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.).

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

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The distorted version of real Krishna Consciousness is spreading in many mutant forms throughout the world

 

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Just try to see how you are doing no better than that?!

 

Again - why do you continue to hide behind this "guest" feature? Looks pretty poor to me.

 

Dear guest - you are simply not thinking like you should be - Prabhupada cannot say anything to you - I cannot say anything to you - all you hear is your own biased mind.

 

If you reject these other traditions - that is a finite position for you - a person who simply serves as a counter-point to the point - [them that you condemn in the other traditions].

 

If you cannot look into other traditions and - see what truths are within - then how can you help save our world from the impending moment of global conflict?

 

Whether you can see the reality or not - devotees of Krishna - are in a most unique position - to explain the personal and impersonal expressions about God in the various scriptures - a task you're not suited to...not because of a lack of knowledge – but rather because you are biased for some reason.

 

You are not telling about the real source of your feelings here…

 

You better soon see that it is kali yuga - and there is 'something wrong' with everything - including you....

 

Your servant,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Srila Prabhupada uvacha:

 

“The basic principles of irreligiosity, such as pride, prostitution, intoxication and falsehood, counteract the four principles of religion, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness.…” [sB 1.17.38]

 

“…the principles of religion do not stand on some dogmas or man-made formulas, but they stand on four primary regulative observances, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. The mass of people must be taught to practice these principles from childhood.…” [sB 1.17.25]

 

“…If the common people are not receptive, it is very difficult to impress upon them the necessity of spiritual enlightenment. Austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, the basic principles of religion, prepare the ground for the reception of advancement in spiritual knowledge…” [sB 1.17.35]

 

“…These are the general principles to be followed by all human beings: truthfulness, mercy, austerity (observing fasts on certain days of the month), bathing twice a day, tolerance, discrimination between right and wrong, control of the mind, control of the senses, nonviolence, celibacy, charity, reading of scripture, simplicity, satisfaction, rendering service to saintly persons, gradually taking leave of unnecessary engagements, observing the futility of the unnecessary activities of human society, remaining silent and grave and avoiding unnecessary talk, considering whether one is the body or the soul, distributing food equally to all living entities (both men and animals), seeing every soul (especially in the human form) as a part of the Supreme Lord, hearing about the activities and instructions given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead (who is the shelter of the saintly persons), chanting about these activities and instructions, always remembering these activities and instructions, trying to render service, performing worship, offering obeisances, becoming a servant, becoming a friend, and surrendering one’s whole self. O King Yudhisthira, these thirty qualifications must be acquired in the human form of life. Simply by acquiring these qualifications, one can satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead.…”

 

PURPORT by HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA

 

“In order that human beings be distinct from the animals, the great saint Narada recommends that every human being be educated in terms of the above-mentioned thirty qualifications. Nowadays there is propaganda everywhere, all over the world, for a secular state, a state interested only in mundane activities. But if the citizens of the state are not educated in the above-mentioned good qualities, how can there be happiness? For example, if the total populace is untruthful, how can the state be happy? Therefore, without consideration of one’s belonging to a sectarian religion, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or any other sect, everyone should be taught to become truthful. Similarly, everyone should be taught to be merciful, and everyone should observe fasting on certain days of the month. Everyone should bathe twice a day, cleanse his teeth and body externally, and cleanse his mind internally by remembering the holy name of the Lord. The Lord is one, whether one is Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Therefore, one should chant the holy name of the Lord, regardless of differences in linguistic pronunciation… Unless one is educated in the above-mentioned thirty qualities, there cannot be any peace…” (Please do read the rest of the Purport) [sB 7.11.8-12]

 

There is so much more – but I think this should suffice to be enough to make this point.

 

Was Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 - preached to ‘hippies” – is that how you’ll denounce this too?

 

Your servant,

 

 

 

"One who considers the arca-nuti (the worshippable Deity of Lord Visnu) to be stone; the spiritual master to be an ordinary human being, a Vaisnava to belong to a particular creed, or Lord Visnu, who is the supreme controller, as equal to the demigods is posessed of hellish intelligence." [Padma Purana]

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Do forgive me - Murali – you have a name!

 

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The fact is, a clown or artist can create a collage of pictures of Vishnu's avatars and insert Mohammed among the avatars, but anyone who knows anything about what Mohammed taught will tell you that he didn't believe God ever incarnates. Not only that, but the artist clown has framed Mohammed himself amongst the avatars when in fact Mohammed himself (and indeed all Mohammedans) will be offended if you were to suggest that Mohammed was an incarnation of God Himself. Mohammed believed God is impersonal and it is wrong to misrepresent his teaching by suggesting he believes in the same notion of a "personal" God that the Vaishnavas believe in.

 

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Just see how harsh your thinking is!

 

No one said that Mohammed is an incarnation of Krishna – he is an empowered incarnation – you do not consider that in your opinion.

 

Also ask a Muslim if they believe that God can incarnate – ask them if they think God should be limited to our understandings of form.

 

They will say no – at least if they understand Koran.

 

Bible and Koran both have descriptions of God’s – hand arm etc., - it is taken by these traditions to be an allegory.

 

They indeed focus upon a part of the impersonal aspect of God. However they are not impersonalists in the same fashion as a mayavadi.

 

A mayavadi does not think that God has any personhood at all. Nor do they believe in the individual nature of the soul. That is not the biblical understanding of God and soul – you know that don’t you?

 

This is what an impersonalist thinks:

 

...There is an identity of this world with the Supreme Lord. This identity is accepted in a misconceived way by the impersonalists; they say that the Supreme Absolute Truth, transforming Himself into the universe, loses His separate existence. Thus they accept the world and everything in it to be the Lord. That is pantheism, wherein everything is considered to be the Lord. This is the view of the impersonalist. But those who are personal devotees of the Lord take everything to be the property of the Supreme Lord. Everything, whatever we see, is the manifestation of the Supreme Lord; therefore, everything should be engaged in the service of the Lord. This is oneness. The difference between the impersonalist and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not accept the separate existence of the Lord, but the personalist accepts the Lord; he understands that although He distributes Himself in so many ways, He has His separate personal existence...the impersonal or pantheistic view that everything is God is not a very intelligent proposal... [sB 3.21.31, purport]

 

Without doubt God has – an impersonal all-pervading feature – and an all-pervading localized aspect.

 

"While thus being observed by the child, the Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul of everyone and the protector of the righteous, who stretches in all directions and who is unlimited by time and space, disappeared at once." [sB 1.12.11]

 

"Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding, namely Brahman or the impersonal all-pervasive spirit; Paramatma, or the localized aspect of the Supreme within the heart of all living entities; and Bhagavän, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna..." [bG 2.2, PURPORT]

 

"Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan." [sB 1.2.11]

 

Those texts are from the early parts of the books - meaning this is a basic understanding for us.

 

It is up to you - to help others to reconcile all these understandings – but - you cannot reject these other traditions - outright - in doing so.

 

You should try to sincerely understand these things first – then think about your critical position.

 

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The thing is, Mohammed specifically denied the idea that God ever incarnates

 

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Get some quotes and sources and we’ll discuss them!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

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p.s. Those Biblical references certainly don't imply a formless Deity. On the contrary, God reveals that He does indeed have a face in the first quote (Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.).

 

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Just see - some do see!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

"Who gains wisdom? He who is willing to receive instruction from all sources. Who is the mighty man? He who subdueth his temper. Who is rich? He who is content with his lot. Who is deserving of honor? He who honoreth mankind.

 

Life is a passing shadow, says the Scripture. Is it the shadow of a tower or a tree? A shadow which prevails for a while? No. It is the shadow of a bird in its flight--away flies the bird, and there is neither bird nor shadow.

 

Hold no man responsible for his utterances in times of grief." [Hebrew Proverbial Sayings]