Resurrection gets a bad rap?

[AncientMariner]

I have heard a lot of Hindus and Krishna devotees make fun of the idea of resurrection and I confess I have at times in my life done the same thing but I found an interesting passage in the Bible that might shed some light on the subject.

 

Mark 12 verse 18

 

And Sad'ducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection; and they asked him a question, saying, "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the wife, and raise up children for his brother. There were seven brothers; the first took a wife and when he died left no children; and the second took her, and died, leaving no children; and the third likewise; and the seven left no children. Last of all the woman also died. In the resurrection whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife."

 

Jesus said to them, "Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

[theist]

Only the ignorant would mock the idea of resurrection. Here is a simple definition:

 

 

Main Entry: res·ur·rec·tion

 

 

Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin resurrection-, resurrectio act of rising from the dead, from resurgere to rise from the dead, from Latin, to rise again, from re- + surgere to rise -- more at SURGE

 

1 a capitalized : the rising of Christ from the dead b often capitalized : the rising again to life of all the human dead before the final judgment c : the state of one risen from the dead

 

2 : RESURGENCE, REVIVAL

 

3 Christian Science : a spiritualization of thought : material belief that yields to spiritual understanding

 

The reason this is not understood is because we think this material life is *life*. But material life means death actually. Martya-loka. Not that we will die but that we are dead. Dead to our own nature as serving parts of Krsna. Yes we exhibit some signs of existence which means we are in zombie life or in a movie like *the Night of the Living Dead*.

 

Or there is the example of someone in a somnambulistic state (sleep walking). Sleep is a form of death.

 

Like when Christ calling his disciples one of them said "first let me bury my father" and Jesus said to him "Let the dead bury the dead".

 

So being unconscious to one's relationship to the Supreme Lord is what is meant by death and being resurrected is having been raised up to life in God consciousness, and being again in awareness of one's svarupa.

 

The Christians have little idea of what they are talking about and imagine physical bodies floating up out of graves and reuniting with God in air. What a horror show, floating rotten corpses. As if Krsna has interest in what lies in these nonsense graves.

 

 

 

[Tatian]

In Genesis Adam who would never die is told, surely the day if you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die. He does eat it but lives another 900 years.

 

Life is spiritual first. Life is to be friends with God. Response and as a friend in love, not hate. How can two walk together unless they are in agreement? A sin gets in between. Adam lost his friendship with God and hid in shame.

 

Adam was the prince of this world, then Satan aquired this from him and we lost our inheritance. All die. Satan fathered Adam. Death is the most powerful of the evil spirits and is a legalist having needed Adam to make a decision to enter. Death can break marriage bonds as in the above post.

 

Friendship with God is love and justice and mercy...

 

Jesus in our place engaged death on the cross and paid for sins or injustice, unlove and hate...

 

Jesus rose again showing death was defeated, resurrection. In Him is the power to give life and eternal life at that.

 

Jesus gives repentance from sins and remits them and makes a way for friendship with God to be restored, in Himself.

 

His death gives life, an exchange. By that work we can have sin taken away, love, justice, friendship and many things lost restored. Including walking as friends with God, Elohim. Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit, Creator Spirit to be an advocate, friend, guard, guide... the Divine Paraclete.

 

All will be raised to eternal life of two sorts. The bodies will be raised. Paul mentions the body alone has a history. For the spirits and souls will be taken up into the presence of I AM WHO I AM. The source of time and matter and space... Into the ever present.

 

The bodies will be raised glorious of these in Heaven. Excellent in love, morals, justice mercy... Friends of God. Alive, spirit, soul and body.

[theist]

 

In Genesis Adam who would never die is told, surely the day if you eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will die. He does eat it but lives another 900 years.

 

 

Depends on how you define death. The soul nevers dies as in loses it's individuality and becomes nothing. Real death is in losing the consciousness, the connection with the Supreme Lord. So on that day he did die or on that day that the soul chooses to live apart from the will of God he does die by falling into material duality or the knowledge of good and evil.

 

I see it as an allegory but very exacting in it's truth as well.

 

 

Life is spiritual first. Life is to be friends with God. Response and as a friend in love, not hate. How can two walk together unless they are in agreement? A sin gets in between. Adam lost his friendship with God and hid in shame.

 

 

Yes I agree "life is spiritual" and to "be friends with God" is also life. That is what spiritual means. The sin of Adam's (our) disobedience can in between us and the Lord and we have been hiding in this material world ever sense. That covering of shame is called ahankara or false identifying ourselves as that which we are not.

 

Krishna consciousness is about the soul coming out of the shameful life of imitating the Lord and regaining our position as His loving friends and offspring.

[Tatian]

To be friends with God is important. In Genesis God's name is Elohim. Later in Exodus it is YHWH or I AM WHO I AM. This is the God above time with no point of origin. Other gods have no entry into history or they were born and had a point of origin in time. It this true regarding the character called Krisna?

[theist]

Krishna is the Cause of all Causes. He Himself has no cause or it is sometimes said He is His own cause. Krishna is another name for that one and only Supreme Being that Jesus Christ prayed to and served.

 

Mostly people here are most attracted to this particular name of God, Krishna. But if someone else has a different name for God then that is no problem as God has hundreds and millions of names.

 

What is important however is that we understand we all are referring to the one God of gods, The Chief eternal among eternals, the One without a second, and He who is always a person.

 

Krishna is not just one of the many gods or some imaginary personality that we relate to but who is really some impersonal energy force within everything etc.

 

Hare Krishna's are strictly mono-theistic. Myself I am a born again penetecostal with a charasmatic background who finds the theism found in these teachings to be without a doubt the deepest and most profound anywhere on Earth. And as such are an essential part of my relationship with Christ.

 

Of course I speak for myself and not any group hare Krishna or Christian.

 

Taitan, I hope you give these peachings a fair hearing. I am sure you will find much profit for your spiritual life.

[Tatian]

In Australia we are all briefed on Hare Krishnas by there followers in there eccentric dances and clothing...

 

I thought Krishna was a man of some years back who devised a philosophy as did Budha.

 

Later I'll check your web page.

 

Who and what is Krishna, a spirit with some nature, does it change...? I never heard any of my Pentecostal fellows mention Krishna. I don't mean to be impolite, don't get me wrong.

 

Kali, what do you think of this god? Not benevolent, Krishna is benevolent right?

 

Kali resembles the more, Lucifer, the fallen servant angel. Now the god of this world by Adam's fall.

 

Garnesh clearly looks to me to be mythological. With a point of origin in an imagination. Do you think he exists and is a Way to God? Surely not Kali?

[theist]

I have chosen to avoid hearing about Krishna from any source other than His devotees. In other words dictionary and enclopedia type scholars, historians, great university pundits and the like. I am also not interested in religion like Christianity or Hinduism.

 

I don't know how to interpret the likes of Ganesh or Kali or the Arch angle Micheal. I accept that the Lord has appointed different tasks in the upkeep of universal affairs to different advanced beings who we term as gods. Rain-god, war-god etc. So I accept the existence of such but can't distinquish between what is our mythology about them as opposed to what is an actual account.

 

Souls are said to change positions sometimes becoming gods and then perhaps falling down to some other form even human. Krishna devotees are not concerned with all the gods. They get respect but not worship and bhakti or that unique devotional sentiment that is eternal love for the Lord.

 

Don't worry about my seemingly contradictory position. I take real flak from some (most) Hare Krishna's for bowing to Jesus and from Christians for chanting Hare Krishna. I have become immune to their taunts so your observation is natural and understandable.

 

And yes as far as Yahweh is meant to refer to the one Supreme Being they are referring to the same person. Jesus prayed to Krishna.

 

But God is unlimited. No one can grasp all His features at any one time. Some like to worship Him as the all-powerful while others would like to hold His hand and dance with Him through the forest. That is one level of intimacy that is taught in Krishna consciousness.

 

IOW some approach God with prayers such as " Oh Almighty God, I bow before you again and again for thou art the greatest..."

 

And some approach Him with " Hey Krishna, Ya wanna Play?"

[Guest guest]

<h2>Living in a material world </h2>

(from Sri Tattva Viveka)

by Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur

kecid vadanti visvam vai paresa-nirmitam kila

jivanam sukha-bhogaya dharmaya ca visesatah (24)

 

Some philosophers say God created this world in order to make a place where souls have an opportunity to enjoy happiness or become pious. (24)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

Some philosophers say God created this world to give us an opportunity to enjoy pleasures. They think that after sinlessly enjoying different luxuries and pleasures, people will praise God and perform pious deeds, praising God for his mercy towards them. However, if God really had wanted to create this material world for the soul’s pleasure then surely He would not have created it as it is. This world is a place full of problems, troubles and disasters. If we consider whether or not this world is a place of enjoyment, we cannot but think this world is filled with many horrible defects. God is all-powerful and whatever he wishes to happen is done at once, so surely he would have created the material world as something that functions in a better way if he was making a world where souls will enjoy pleasures. He would have made it as something faultless. And if he created the material world as a place for souls to perform pious deeds, then surely He would have made it very different from the way it is. Of this there is no doubt. Why is there no doubt of this? Because in the material world pious deeds are not easily performed by every soul.

adi-jivaparadhad vai sarvesam bandhanam dhruvam

tathanya-jiva-bhutasya vibhor dandena niskritih (25)

 

Some philosophers say that because of the first human being’s sin all the other human beings are imprisoned in the material world. Then, punishing Himself for their sins, God delivers the living entities from sin.(25)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

Thinking about the virtues and faults of this world, some moralist monotheists have concluded that this material world is not a place of unalloyed pleasures. Indeed, the sufferings greatly outweigh the pleasures. They have decided that the material world is a prison created for the punishment of humankind. If there is a punishment, then there must be a crime that has been committed. Indeed if there were no crime then why would there be any punishment? What crime did the living creatures commit, that they are born into a world of suffering? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. They imagine God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from grace and were expelled from that garden and thrown into this material world which is filled with sufferings. Because of their offence, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offence, God himself took birth in a human form. He took on his own shoulders the sins of his followers, and then died. All who follow him shall easily attain salvation, and all who do not follow him will fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes himself, and liberates humankind.

 

An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this.

janmato jiva-sambhavo maranante na janma vai

yat-kritam samsritau tena jivasya caramam phalam (26)

 

These philosophers say that the soul comes into existence at birth. After death, he is not born again on earth. After death he attains either heaven or hell as a result of his actions in that one lifetime. (26)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

To accept this concocted religion one must first believe in some rather implausible things. The living entity's life begins at birth - before birth the living entity did not exist. After death, the living entity will no longer stay in the world of material activities. Only human beings have souls - other creatures have no soul. But only extremely unintelligent persons believe in this religion. In this religion the living entity is not an eternal, spirit being by nature. God has created the living entities out of matter.

 

Why are the living entities born into very different situations? Some are rich and healthy, some are poor and sickly. The followers of this religion cannot say. Why is one person born into a house filled with sufferings while another takes birth in a house filled with joys? One is born into the house of people devoted to God while another is born in a wicked atheist's family. Why is one person born in a household where he is encouraged to perform pious deeds, and he then goes and performs pious deeds. But another person is born in a family of atheists and is placed in a situation where he is encouraged to sin? He sins and becomes bad, because of his circumstances. The followers of this religion cannot answer all these questions. Their religion seems to say that God is unfair and irrational, for it is God who decides what sort of life someone will have.

 

Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why don’t birds and beasts have souls like the human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life? Bcause of their actions in that one life people are rewarded with eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell. Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable.

atra sthitasya jivasya karma-jnananusilanat

visvonnati-vidhanena kartavyam isa-tosanam (27)

 

These people say that by doing work and by accumulating knowledge humankind can make improvements in the material world and in this way please God. (27)

 

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur:

The followers of this religion have no tendency to worship God selflessly. In general their idea is that by doing work and by gaining knowledge one should work to improve the material world, and in this way please God. By building hospitals and schools, and by doing various philanthropic works, they try to do good in the world and thus please God. Worship of God by performing work (karma) and by engaging in studies and learning (jnana) is very important to them. They show no capacity to understand pure devotional service (suddha-bhakti), which is free of fruitive work and philosophical speculation.

 

Worship of God done out of a sense of duty is never natural or unselfish. "God has been kind to us, and therefore we should worship Him." These are the thoughts of lesser minds. Why is this not a good way to worship God? Because one may think, "If God is not kind to me, then I will not worship Him anymore." In this way one has the selfish, bad desire to get God's kindness in the future.

 

If one wishes that God will be kind by allowing one to serve Him, then there is nothing wrong with that desire. But the religion under discussion does not see it in that way. This religion sees God's kindness in terms of one's enjoying a happy life in this material world.

[Tatian]

God sets us in places in order for us to reach out to Him who is not far from each one of us.

 

We are created and there is no basis to think that there will be a reincarnation. No use... What happens to the memories...?

 

No other god has such a powerful message as Jesus. The God who became the perfect high priest, taking on flesh and the fullness of humanity, entering history and paying the price for sin and dying to engage and defeat the spirit of death. Inso He knows our suffering and weakness. He was also the perfect Truth, expressing God to man perfectly and is a clear Way to his Father, taking the sin away from between us. Lovingly wanting us to have eternal life. He is Life itself. He poured out His life that we can have life, love friendship and warmth and healing from sin and disease. Life and no more death.

 

He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. The Resurrection and the Life.

[Guest guest]

quote:

<blockquote>

Some philosophers say that because of the first human being’s sin all the other human beings are imprisoned in the material world. Then, punishing Himself for their sins, God delivers the living entities from sin.(25)

....

 

An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this.

</blockquote>

 

Tatian,

If you believe in what the Pentecostals have told you then that's fine.

 

But if you open your eyes you may suddenly realize that in the history of the world God has made himself known to many people who know nothing of the Bible, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed or Abraham.

 

And when the illuminated sages see God face to face, some of them have said, "Oh Krishna!" or "Hare Krishna".

 

Krishna is the real name of God.

 

In the beginning there was the word. And the word is Krishna.

 

 

 

 

[theist]

 

We are created and there is no basis to think that there will be a reincarnation. No use... What happens to the memories...?

 

 

First you we not created as in at one moment you were not and at another moment you suddenly are. You have always been. As a child of God we share in His eternal nature. One can say rightly that we all have a cause. just as the sunlight has a cause the sun but there was never a time when the sun did not give off sunlight or what meaning could there be to the sun?

 

Lack of memories are no proof there is no reincarnation? For one thing some memories can be accessed with some people remembering more than others. Also do you remeber the moment you can out of the womb? So do you conclude fromthat that you never came out of your mother's womb?

[Guest guest]

In fact there are many examples of children who can remember their past lives

 

See this article about the research of Dr. Ian Stevenson, professor of psychiatry at the University of Virginia School of Medicine:

http://www.deathisanillusion.com/page.pl?id=2&cid=3

[theist]

No time now so I bookmarked it. I am interested as to what Taitan will have to say on it.

[Guest guest]

 

My initial attraction to Krishna was because of unexplainable memories I have had, all my life. My mother used to teach Hatha Yoga and I was fascinated by that science of yoga, from my earliest days of life. I had an awareness of the sensation of the Ganga flowing through riverland in the night, before I ever saw the Ganga. Memories of fire lights in houses. And an awareness of the mechanics of astanga yoga and pranayama, which came naturally to me when I tried the processes of Yoga. I also had an awareness of balance, and dance, and swordplay with weapons such as the club - before I ever was told about Vishnu weilding a club in battle. These memories were not things I had learned in this life, but things I know about from before this lifetime. These early memories are the things that brought me here.

- m.

[Guest guest]

Adam had an origin a time of being formed and given life. The sun took time to form from dust on a massive scale billions of years ago and with it the Earth. There was a time before the sun.

 

Psalm 139 mentions formation the body and spirit knit together in the mother's body. A fresh breath of life. Born to be born again once more for all time. Only God is uncreated apart from the humanity of Jesus.

[Tatian]

My last post was Origins in which I was named 'guest'.

 

In the Hebrew practice there are scape goats and sacrificial lambs. That is of old. For a year the lamb would take the place of a wrongdoer. So a perfect lamb with no defect would take the place of the man or woman. The priest would lay hands on it's head to transfer the sins of that year into the lamb which would be slaughtered in his place.

 

A just God requires a sacrifice for injustice or sin and their is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.

 

Jesus must be understood to have allowed Himself to be taken by Israel's and Rome's authorities yet He did not ask to die but instead asked His Father if it could be done some other way. He shed tears of blood, scientificaly verifable action, anticipating the event.

 

But now your wrongdoings or injustices or sins, have been paid for, that His blood, that of the highest reality, can wash away your sins for all time, from anytime in your life. He took our sins in Himself and paid the price. For you.

 

We live in a world now cursed after the fall of Adam. Unclean spirits, keen on deceiving us roam about and are organised and highly intelligent. They cause mulitple personality disorder, cancer, birth marks, dreams and visions... Some are known as "familiar Spirits" which expertly follow families and individuals, appearing as their spirits after they die... So I would attribute birth marks and memories to the spirits. Not to reincarnation.

 

Also there would have to be a power which would reincarnate someone, equally as powerfull as the initial creator.

 

Also since when does a modern university officially acknowledge the existence of the human spirit? If so why not the unclean spirits and God too.

 

Jealous spirits want to distract us from a just and loving, giving and rich God.

 

Sin is a real but less real than Jesus blood sin is part of creation dependant on us not God.

 

We can by His blood, the perfect lamb of God who never sinned, have cleansing and perfect justice infused into our beings. We can have a clear conscience. Friendship with a just God.

[Guest guest]

quote:

<blockquote>

A just God requires a sacrifice for injustice or sin and their is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.

</blockquote>

This is ridiculous.

[Guest guest]

Devotees of Sri Krishna are all vegetarians.

 

These things you say about blood sacrifices and wotnot are abhorrent to the Hindu, vegetarian people who are regular users of this web site.

[theist]

One of the last things Christ told his disciples before his crucifixation was that they had been purified by hearing his teachings from him. By HEARING the spiritual sounds of truth from the purified soul is how we become purified.

 

He also said "Pick up your cross and follow me." We have to sacrifice the fleshly will in preference to the Fathers will.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Not all the devotees who visit this site are vegetarian.

 

Theist is a vegan.

 

- m.

[Tatian]

My apologies to vegans, I didn't know about this. I had seen blood being applied to the horns of a bulls in India.

 

Justice reagarding wrong doing does need to penalise and deal with it. Injustice won't go undone... There must be a dealing. Naughty children are rebuked. Criminals are sentenced... Justice is part of a good nature, much better than bad scales and injustice. Who wants to be treated unfairly and deceived?

 

Think of how precious people are and how a murderer or a rapist should be treated. Imprisonment protects us from them but they deserve pains. Justice stirs up anger toward them. It is human. It is Godly to be angry sometimes.

[Tatian]

The disciples were cleansed by hearing Truth, justice and mercy from a source which was always pure.

 

When their thoughts of there hearts changed by the clean words they were clean of thought. By hearing and OBEYING. By change.

[theist]

Yes Taitan and the same works today.

[Tatian]

Psalm 51 mentions purification with Hyssop, meaning now the application of Jesus life to a person.

 

Words are one thing. But they must be anointed with the Spirit to have the power, from Jesus the anointed one, ever clean.

 

Living water can cleanse, repentance with a blessing. Jesus life poured out for us. Various forms of God's presence can change ours. It is right to be humble and to want change.