Guest guest Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 I was reading Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5, and did not expect to read about all the different hells. There's a hell called Lalabhaksa and a river called Sukra-nadi. Where does the -- err -- liquid from Sukra-nadi originate from? Is it just there? Does it originate from a "spring" or a living entity? This is found in Srimad Bhagavatam 5.25.26 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 7, 2005 Report Share Posted July 7, 2005 It may be more imporatant to remember that whatever hellish conditions or planets or galaxies that may exist, exist as a reflection of and a response to the mental states of the particular jivas. If no jivas thought in demonic terms these places would not exist at all. Think of loving Krsna and all hells will evaporate before you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 24, 2005 Report Share Posted July 24, 2005 Wikapedia, the on-line encyclopedia under Hindu hell gives a nice link to ISKCON offering: <center> http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/planetarium/index.htm </center> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 <html> <head> <title> </title> </head> <body> </body> </html> Quote from veda.harekrsna.cz: <blockquote> I am jiva, spirit soul, part and parcel and eternal servant of the Lord. My svarupa, spiritual body, is similar in form to any of the material bodies in the material world but it is of the same quality as myself and the whole spiritual world (sac-cid-ananda). Although I could stay here eternally in Lord's loving company and participate in His lila (pastime), I decided to explore the material world thus beginning my journey. </blockquote> It's a real pity that devotees are still propagating the idea that the jiva can fall down from Vaikuntha and become a conditioned soul (nitya-baddha). It's also a real pity that the "fundamentalist" interpretation of the Bhagavatam and other scriptures is being presented as the authentic message of the Vedic scriptures. That is, on that page at veda.harekrsna.cz they detailed the layout of the cosmos and they have the sun situated between the earth and the moon. That is, in their plan the moon is further away from earth than the sun. When will these people realize they are just like the people who think that Noah filled up his boat with pairs of giraffs, elephants, lions and cockroaches? This fundamentalist way of thinking was labelled "ass-like" thinking or donkey-like thinking by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur taught that the hells in the Bhagavatam are simply "stories" which were created in order to teach people spiritual lessons. Why do devotees wave incense at a picture of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur but fail to appreciate the meaning of the things he says in his writings? Why believe in superstitions and irrational ideas that our previous Acharyas have clearly explained are untrue and wrong? Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: <blockquote> In the common place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo gunas have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the heaven as beautiful as anything on earth, and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this heaven we have many more places where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one that Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost." These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real. facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata, certainly tells us of a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage </blockquote> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Back to Godhead: it seems the acaryas had their reasons in time and circumstance for this theme. Certainly no one can fault a disciple for repeating their masters' words. Clearly Srila Vyasadeva thought that some people needed to fear those hells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Well, for we who are in the spiritual lineage coming from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, it is our task in life to rise above the nescience and enter into the truth. We have been told that we must understand the teachings of our Gurudev, Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, who said these words about the mythic "hells" which are described in Srimad Bhagavatam: <blockquote> These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. </blockquote> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Means re-membering (with) Krsna. Fall means forgetting Krsna. Since there is no time considerations of past present future in the Kingdom of God it is easy to see how the soul falls and does not fall simultaneously. It is also easy to see the foolishness of this continued debate while under the control of the time factor and also easy to see how those free from it would have no interest. As far as hells go the descriptions in the Bhagavatam may indeed have been made up but frankly I have no trouble imagining even worse existing somewhere in this cosmos. Last week I saw a TV show about Linda Moulten Howe investigating cattle mutilations. This one cow had this laser like incision that took off part of its face and neck. By the time this was filmed the maggots were swarming in the rotting flesh by the hundreds of thousands. All crawling over each other etc. So nasty. Was that not a hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Guest, the Bhagavatam only says that the moon is farther "above the plane of BhU-maNDala" than the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Your position is well-taken, guest. It would appear that His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta felt that in presenting some of these ideas to the public in general that the esoteric refinements of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura were not appropriate. Again: time and circumstance. That website, especially now that it is linked to the popular Wikipedia facility will be viewed by many people outside the Gaudiya inner group (who certainly need not fear any hell but this one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 Swami Gaurangapada has been quoted in regards to poetic hells:<blockquote>"As per some statements of Seventh Goswami Shrila Saccidananda Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Krishna Samhita and one or two other books, Thakura himself has explained it in the introduction to Krishna Samhita that those statements should not be taken directly by the devotees. His stating that hells are imaginary was just a preaching strategy as per the time, place and situation to bring the English men and women and the indologists to the path of pure devotion somehow or the other. In so many other places, he has confirmed the descriptions of the hellish planets in the 5th Canto of the Bhagavatam and in so many places like Hari Nama Chintamani he has most vividly described the fearful situations one will face by committing the 10 Nama Aparadhas."</blockquote> It seems we will have to read all his books ourselves. Chuckle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayaPrabhupada Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 One should not use "hell" as a tool in preaching. Hell is real as much as dream is real. The fact that both Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada would treat it differently in different situations shows that it is not an essential issue. However one has to stress the right of an acarya to treat every sastra "as it is". As the truth of sastra is sastra itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 25, 2005 Report Share Posted July 25, 2005 The fact that both Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Prabhupada would treat it differently in different situations shows that it is not an essential issue. It is irrelevant where the moon is positioned in relation to the Earth. But it becomes relevant if we present it in a way to people knowing that they will object and are then highly unlikely to treat the rest of the SB with the respect it deserves in terms of knowledge of the self, Superself and their relationship. Some could even argue it becomes a subtle form of violence designed to keep souls from Krsna consciousness. What good does it do anyone to know where the moon is anyway? When I look up in the night sky I know where it is as much as I need to know. "It's up there" and I can point to it. Bas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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