Born - Again "Hindu"

[krsna]

Born - Again "Hindu"

 

BY ROBIN

 

EDITORIAL, Jul 27 (VNN) — This is the story of a man, who opened my eyes, and probably that of many others to the joy that is "God consciousness" or the transcendental reality that Lord Sri Krishna, is the supreme Lord and master of all entities, both in the material Universe and the spiritual Universe.

 

It is really incredible as to how little, contemporary Indians do know about their ancient "Sanatan Dharma", and to how materialistic we Indians have become, in the present decadent age of "Kali". How often do we hear other Indians castigate Americans or other Westerners for being "materialistic" and other related derogatory terms, where the fact of the matter is that, Indian society is basically epitomising these very behaviours. From Bollywood movies, to the drinking culture that the current generation of youth are adopting, to the "free-sex" lifestyle that is now prevalent in India, Indian society is now a far-cry from the ancient Vedic times.

 

But how are we to even understand this, as in our text - books "The Vedic culture and period" are just regarded as the fictitious imagination of nationalists, who have fabricated the epics of the Ramayana and Mahabharata for national aggrandisement.

 

However, through this article I shall tell you, how I was saved by a great devotee of the Lord, born in Sweden, who in my eyes, opened my eyes through the futility of "Mayavadi philosophy" to the transcendental reality of pure God - consciousness.

 

Citing the term "Born - Again Christian", would it be right to term myself as a "born - again Hindu", but I had to first understand the aeons of history behind the meaning of this word "Hindu".

 

As a young student leaving India for western shores, I was your typical young - youth, and used the usual "Mayavadi" hackneyed definition of Hinduism, that it is a religion that states "You are God, I am God, We are all God", thus impressing other more agnostic youth, who are very frequently attracted to this interpretation of divinity thinking it to be most "democratic" or maybe "liberal " would be the right word. My grandfather, was a great believer in Lord Sri Krishna, and for that matter, through personal experience I am convinced that it is impossible for one, not to believe in the quintessential divinity of the source of the Gita, Lord Shree Krishna if one is unbiased in his previous philosophical orientation. I for one, think that there is no spiritual literature that can rival the Bhagavad Gita, in any measure.

 

The earlier few paragraphs shall give you more or less an idea of my background, coming from an upper middle-class family in India. Then one day, I met three interesting people, chanting the names of the supreme Lord, at Nordstan, the largest mall - complex in Gothenburg, Sweden. Actually, I had been feeling some kind of a vacuum since some-time and from far I heard the beautiful sounds of the mrdangas, and followed the sound to its source, encountering the three blissful souls, lost in passionate chanting of the Lord's name!I was drawn to them, like a moth to light, on a moonless night! Approaching, the gentleman Shree Mukunda Dasa, on that fateful day, I apprised him of the fact, that I hailed from India, and I still remember the glow in his eyes, that if I am honest scared me at first. In India, most materialistic Hindus, who have been firmly interwoven with Mayavadi philosophy, see such transcendentally situated human beings as fanatics or deluded individuals, and in t! he beginning I too thought of him as some kind of a frustrated Swede, who like all such people found a fetish, to spend his time with. When I saw such people, I felt a nationalistic pride, that here there are some Western people adopting Indian culture (and not vice-versa), but at that time I did not realise the facts that Vedic culture is not just Indian, but existed all over the inhabited world in ancient times (as archaeological evidence shows), that these people were following the ancient knowledge of the Vedas, that are meant for all man, and not just Indians, and the "quintessential truth" that these people were not just merely worshipping a Hindu God called " Krishna", but they were submitting every aorta of their spiritual entity to the loving service, of the transcendental "param brahman", who resides in "Goloka Vrindavan", that supreme Being, who is repeatedly referred to as the supreme Personality of Godhead (Param-brahman), Lord Shree Krishna, who is not merely so! me historical figure, not merely some "Hindu God", not merely the God of the residents of this earth planet, he is the Lord of all entities, and the source of all entities and manifestations, that not only abound the material creations, but the entire creation, both material and spiritual. God - consciousness is to know, that Lord Sri Krishna, the 'Param - Brahman', is the creator, master, maintainer and destroyer of all. At times, he manifests his activities by his plenary expansions, other demigods (that we Hindus also refer to as Gods), but the fact of the matter is, that he is the source through which we all derive all our energy.

 

I still remember the passion, in the eyes of Mukunda, when I met him! I still remember the glow in his bright blue eyes, when he stared into my eyes! Infact, I can now understand the fear in my heart! When disease becomes part of the consciousness of a diseased individual, and that individual comes face to face with the cure of the disease, then he becomes scared to face - up to the cure. We are so intertwined into this web of maya that manifests by rooting ourselves firmly to the world of materialistic pleasures, that when we come face to face with the devotees of the Lord, who through their transcendental prowess can immediately and efficaciously severe these bounds. Every person, who comes into genuine contact with the true of Vaishnavism, at some point or the other, have that moment when the truth starts to "hit" them, and that moment is a very powerful moment, that metamorphosizes their consciousness, and their life from that point on.

 

Mukunda Dasa, re-awakened the spiritual consciousness, that awoke my eyes to the true knowledge of God, Sri Krishna, who is the Supreme Lord and purveyor of all! Mukunda travels the length and breadth of Sweden, preaching altruistically to school students, the general public, and every moment of his life, is spent in the service of Lord Krishna. For a long time, I have wanted to write something, about this great soul, but I have been procrastinating in the fear that I fail to express adequately his selfless service to mankind, but today I realised that it is not possible to manifest into words the altruistic actions of such great men, especially my mere mortals like me. Valmikiji, meditated for 60,000 years in order to reach the echelon required to enunciate the past-times of Lord Shree Ram.

 

I just want to express my ardent gratitude to him, for having opened the door to Krishna Consciousness, and I pray that he continues to shower his mercy on me, and all other devotees, so that we may be saved from this repeated cycle of repeated birth and death! Recently, Shree Mukunda Dasa was blessed with a son, and I beseech all the Vaishnavas here to pray that his son, grows up to be as great as his father, if not greater.

 

I also offer my humble obeisance, again and again and again and again, and a million times over at your lotus feet, Shree Mukundaji, for the saviour that you are! How glorious is this Sankirtana movement that Lord Shree Chaitanya Mahaprabhu started.

 

As an expat Indian, I would like to apprise all Indians, that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu (an incarnation of Lord Sri Krishna, as his own devotee) had predicted that we Indians would travel a lot, which is now becoming true, as millions of Indian IT engineers travel to the west. We shall all bring the glorious name of Hari, Krishna and Rama to the west, and spread the name of the Lord, in any way we can. Shree Mukundaji, had told me that I should utilise any opportunity that I get to preach the names of the Lord, and I urge all devotee to do the same.

 

My obeisance's at the feet of my saviour Shree Mukunda Dasa.

 

All glories to his Divine Grace, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada,

 

My obeisances at the lotus feet, of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Shree Krishna.

 

A grateful servant aspiring to make spiritual advancement

 

[Guest guest]

 

It is really incredible as to how little, contemporary Indians do know about their ancient "Sanatan Dharma", and to how materialistic we Indians have become, in the present decadent age of "Kali".

 

 

You know, I'm pretty unhappy with the way materialism has taken hold of India. Quite disgusted with it, really. I've never hesitated to speak out against it, even in public circles.

 

But at the same time, I'm equally dismayed with the way "born-again" Hindus in ISKCON pontificate on how amazing it is that Hindus are so materialistic, so this or that, etc, with the implication being that ISKCON is somehow above that standard. There is no greater irony than the fact that an organization like ISKCON can make a position out of criticizing vices in others which it implicitly tolerates or even encourages within its own ranks.

 

Many times, people in ISKCON try to convince us that its own problems are exclusive to only "some devotees" within its ranks, the idea being that the core values are being practiced by everyone else and only a few high-publicity detractors are giving the organization a bad name. I wish to point out that this is *simply* *not* *true.* In the name of honesty and cutting down on hypocrisy, I wish to disclose the facts.

 

*Please note that I am doing this because the moderators allow ISKCON criticism of contemporary Hindu society on this forum. But the blade has two edges, and we must not hesitate to see how far the criticism is applicable. Also, I do not wish to discourage anyone from taking to Krishna-consciousness. But I strongly recommend that you not take to Krishna-consciousness based on an idealistic and inaccurate perception of ISKCON. Ultimately, you should take to Krishna's devotional service because you are convinced that this is your natural function taught in scripture, and not because you feel that ISKCON is a blameless organization into which you feel a social connection or sense of acceptance. *

 

Let us deal with a number of issues that frequently come up in these ISKCON vs Hindu Society dialogues (which again, I must point out are largely initiated by ISKCON followers):

 

1) Hindus do not know their own religion:

 

The fact of the matter is, neither do most ISKCON members. The vast majority of *initiated* ISKCON devotees have not read Srila Prabhupada's books, or even any one of his books, in their entirety. In the spirit of seeking the truth, I challenge all of you to informally survey all of the initiated devotees at your local temple, and find out how many have actually read even *one* of Srila Prabhupada's books cover to cover (inclusive of the purports). You will be quite surprised.

 

It may be argued that ISKCON devotees still seem quite knowledgeable about spiritual matters and more learned than the average Hindu immigrant to USA. This may seem true, but the lack of maturity in that knowledge leads to ISKCON members acting on many misconceptions, which brings us to the next point:

 

2) Hindus do not practice their dharma, in contrast to ISKCON devotees who allegedly do:

 

The fact of the matter is that varnashrama-dharma, with its prescribed duties for different varnas, genders, and orders is also not accepted in ISKCON. Indeed, it is considered an extremely "controversial" subject, although it is part of Sanatana-dharma. Frequently, ISKCON members will take the idea that "I am not this body" (true statement), and then misapply it by saying, "Because I know I am not this body, I therefore do not have to perform duties assigned to me based on this body." And thus, women toss aside such principles as chastity and shyness, children throw away principles of respecting one's elders, men get rid of the idea of having to care for one's dependents, etc. In fact, on this forum there are plenty of ISKCON devotees who make casual reference to their boyfriend/girlfriend. In Vedic society, which ISKCON as an organization claims to value, strict separation of the sexes is the norm.

 

The dharma issue in ISKCON and lay Hinduism is quite complex, and can be divided into multiple subprinciples.

 

3) Hindus do not follow the regulations on sexual activity, in contrast to ISKCON members who allegedly do.

 

The actual principle is that sexual activity should only be indulged in for procreation within marriage. This was the standard upheld by Srila Prabhupada and taught in the dharma-shastras. However, today in ISKCON the facts of "sex within marriage, not necessarily for procreation" have been quietly accepeted by the leadership. This was confirmed by a prominent ISKCON sannyasi on Chakra at http://www.chakra.org/discussions/GenFeb09_05.html when he used it as his justification that homosexuality be given official recognition on the same grounds. One need only do a Google search for "three regulative principles" to see various pseudo-philosophical justification given by other ISKCON members for the position that "sex for fun is ok, as long as it is within marriage."

 

The point here is that it is hypocrisy for ISKCON to criticize lay Hindus for not following this regulative principle, when most of their own householders do not follow it either.

 

In fact, what to speak of illicit sex within marriage, there is certainly no shortage of other sexual deviations within ISKCON. As of 1996, the then ISKCON Communications Director Anuttama Dasa publicly went on record in _Hinduism Today_ admitting that ISKCON had a 55% divorce rate, comparable to the American national average and far above the divorce rates of Hindu India. It is not an uncommon sight to see ISKCON men and women with multiple children from several failed marriages, all within ISKCON. Nor is it uncommon to see male divorcees roaming about, "preaching" almost preferentially to young, unmarried women. In response to this, I have often observed that ISKCON members will make all kinds of claims to the effect that there would be just as many divorces and philandering in Hindu society if Hindus were more "progressive" and "liberated." Putting aside for the moment the fact that this is merely speculation, how does it justify the ugly reality of ISKCON marriages? Do ISKCON devotees want to compare themselves to what they know to be degraded, or to the ideal standard set by their acharya?

 

Again, the point here is that it is hypocrisy for ISKCON to criticize lay Hindus for not following this regulative principle, when most of their own householders do not follow it either.

 

4) Hindus eat food in restaurants, while ISKCON devotees eat only prasadam:

 

It is true that that one should eat only prasadam, as per BG 3.13 which states that unoffered foodstuffs (even vegetarian) cause sinful reaction. But are ISKCON members any different from lay Hindus in this regard?

 

Factually, no. It has been quietly accepted by ISKCON that its householders will indulge in consuming karmi (unoffered) foodstuffs from time to time. This includes visiting restaurants which provide "vegetarian food," just as many Hindu immigrants do. The following webpage provides information by an ISKCON devotee to such ISKCON devotees, warning them about secretly non-vegetarian ingredients in seemingly vegetarian foods offered in restaurants: http://kuruvinda.com/nutrition.php?c=2 Among the places it lists in which devotees "sometimes stop for a quick snack" are McDonalds, Burger King, and numerous chicken and pizza places. It would hardly be necessary for someone to put up such a web page addressed to devotees, if only a minority of ISKCON devotees indulged in eating unoffered foods.

 

5) Hindus have become degraded by indulging in television and cinema:

 

The facts are, however, that most ISKCON householders also watch non-devotional television shows and movies. Feel free to peruse this forum, and you will be hard pressed not to stumble across references by ISKCON devotees to non-devotional television/cinema programs they have seen. Srila Prabhupada always spoke out against karmi television programming and cinemas, but today his followers routinely watch these things and are not even ashamed to admit it.

 

6) Hindu leaders in many Hindu movements are corrupt and have been implicated in numerous scandals:

 

But the same is also true of ISKCON gurus, for whom there have been on average 1-2 high-profile, highly publicized "falldowns" per year. Often these involve an illicit liason between some senior devotee who is only "officially celibate" with a woman. The ISKCON response to this fall-down syndrome is so practiced that it can almost be summed up in the following protocol:

 

a) Quote BG 9.30 saying that even a fallen devotee is to be given all respect

b) Remind the public of all the great service the fallen guru has done

c) Explain to the public, including the fallen guru's disciples, that the fallen guru is no longer to be considered a "diksa guru," but merely a "siksa guru" or some other category of "guru."

d) Congratulate the fallen guru for having come out with his affair, and on whatever steps he is taking to rectify his "devotional service."

e) Encourage disciples of the fallen guru to seek shelter from another ISKCON guru.

f) Repeat steps a-e as needed.

 

What to speak of highly publicized falldowns, but there is plenty of evidence of deviation even among ISKCON gurus who are reportedly in "good standing." In February of 2005, one such guru went public on chakra.org (link provided) with his view that homosexual matings could be seen as a strategy of sense control within Vedic culture, and publicly disagreed with his guru Srila Prabhupada who repeatedly said otherwise. Another ISKCON guru similarly went public with his erroneous views that homosexuals are considered "auspicious" in Vedic culture; he also has published many books which speak of UFO's, cults, conspiracy theories, etc which are routinely distributed at ISKCON gatherings alongside or sometimes in lieu of Srila Prabhupada's books. This guru was never disciplined on these matters by ISKCON's leadership; far from it, he is now revered as a contemporary saint akin to Jesus Christ. Yet another guru admitted to having a love affair with a married devotee female, and currently continues his service as a preacher while displaying horridly amateurish artwork which involve caricatures of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Krishna, apparently the "therapy" he has undertaken to impress his adulterous therapist. Yet another sannyasi-guru was publicly taken to task on VNN for his eccentric interest in providing enemas, his casual association with women, and his recommendation that his disciples undergo "ghost-busting." And none of this even scratches the surface; there are many other gurus within ISKCON who are secretly sympathetic to the rising tide of New Age influence, feminism, and acceptance of practicing homosexuality all under the banner of ISKCON. This brings us to the next point.

 

7) Hindus are frequently seen as having bought into the foreigners' view that Puranic cosmology and history is nothing more than quaint fiction intended to teach a moral lesson. This is in contrast to ISKCON devotees who allegedly accept the Puranic accounts as factual.

 

The fact is, challenges to the authenticity of Puranic historical details are now commonplace within ISKCON. One need only peruse this forum, chakra.org, vnn.org, dipika.org, and other forums to see that this is true. An ISKCON devotee even published Bhaktivinod Thakura's Krishna-Samhita and suggested based on this that believe in historicity is orthogonal to acceptance of the authority of the Puranas.

 

The point here is that if "believe in historicity of scripture" is seen as tantamount to a spiritual movement's authenticity, then ISKCON is hardly a stand-out in the crowd of new-age spiritualism. It is true that Srila Prabhupada's stance on the scriptural authority was line with traditional Vaishnavas. It is not true that ISKCON's stance is necessarily Srila Prabhupada's.

 

8) Hindus disrespect spiritual figures from their own tradition. ISKCON devotees respect them.

 

Within the last several years on pamho.net (the ISKCON devotees' official bulletin board), a highly public, high-profile, initiated devotee and outspoken feminist whose guru is an ISKCON devotee in "good standing," publicly posted that:

 

"Lord Ram is on my sh*t list for what he did to Sita."

 

This statement was made by an initiated ISKCON devotee in a forum of other initiated ISKCON devotees. The ISKCON guru whose disciple wrote this never bothered to correct her or discipline her despite being made aware of her offensive remarks. And the disciple in question continues to remain in ISKCON circles, publicly challenging Srila Prabhupada and Vedic culture at every opportunity.

 

ISKCON's leadership has also failed to discipline or censure the offensive "devotee" despite being made aware of these highly offensive remarks.

 

Silence means complicity.

 

9) Hindus are largely mayavadis, in contrast to ISKCON devotees who are personalists.

 

One wishes the last half were true. The fact of the matter is that ISKCON nowadays is heavily influenced by varying degrees of impersonalism in the form of New Age philosophies, religious syncretism, and generally indiscriminate acceptance of sentimental, wishy-washy thinking.

 

A series of "Personal Life Skills" seminars (google search "Vaisnava Life Skills/Personal Transformation Seminars") given by an ISKCON psychologist are frequently advertised in Back to Godhead and other official ISKCON media as a means of teaching empathic listening. Factually, the seminars are nothing more than applied psychology, a social science which is indisputably non-theistic in nature. They teach such things as "Channeling Krishna" (as if one could realize the Deity's nature simply by speaking to Him) and encourage men and women to pair off with each other during the workshops, thus defying Vedic social norms. Needless to say, the devotee-psychologist who offers these workshops is certainly profiting from it.

 

ISKCON devotees from Judeo-Christian backgrounds frequently intermingle elements of their native religions with the tapestry of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Jesus is said to be a pure devotee, therefore many unsuccessful attempts are made to reconcile Vaishnavism with Christianity, resulting in unauthorized conclusions being passed along as factual Vedic truth for the mass consumption of a largely unsuspecting, Hindu audience. These include the false deification of Semitic religious figures (Jesus, Mohammed, the Virgin Mary, Moses, etc) with subtle incorporation of ideas taught by their respective traditions into ISKCON. Ironically, ISKCON devotees will frequently pose as authorities on other religions, claiming that these other religions are adulterated and would be closer to ISKCON doctrine were it not for this. Yet, they casually accept ideas taught by these "adulterated" non-Vedic religions. For example, the mainstream Christian idea that one need only have faith, and that faith overrides the inability to perform works, has become transformed into the modern-day ISKCONite view that one need only follow Prabhupada, and that this will excuse one from lack of attention to scripturally-sanctioned duties or study of Prabhupada's books. The result is an ISKCON population of "cosmopolitan brahmins" who act and dress the part, but like their Hindu counterparts, are usually busy with the acquisition of material comforts over the traditional brahminical calling.

 

Concluding Remarks

 

One may ask why it is important to bring these issues up. Again, the point is not to discourage mature conviction in the process of Krishna-consciousness, but rather to dissuade one from making rash decisions to surrender to Lord Krishna based on an inaccurately idealistic view of ISKCON. ISKCON dialog vis-a-vis Hindu society is generally based on the false dichotomy that Hindu society is generally degraded and incapable of providing bona fide spiritual guidance, in contrast to ISKCON which is implicitly held to be the paragon of virtue and thus more than qualified to receive the surrender of aspiring devotees. The reality of ISKCON is simply otherwise, and an aspiring devotee should be developing strong faith in the acharya and in Lord Krishna, and not in ISKCON or its less-than-exemplary managers. If one develops faith in Krishna based on faith in ISKCON, he will invariably feel cheated when he realizes how ISKCON does not live up to the principles it preaches, resulting in unwarranted bitterness against the Vaishnava tradition when the fault lies on ISKCON.

 

It is important to discuss these issues because Hindu expatriates, frequently feeling the separation from their indigenous culture, are prime targets for exploitation by ISKCON. They are frequently ready to donate time and money towards supporting the organization, but the truth of ISKCON's rampant spiritual and ethical corruption is constantly concealed from them. This has resulted in a peculiar relationship in which a materially successful, Hindu immigrant population, thinking that they are receiving a genuine spiritual product, continue to enable a corrupt religious organization that does not feel itself accountable to them. If Hindus develop mature conviction in the genuine spiritual tradition ISKCON claims to represent, and learn to see the real ISKCON instead of the propped up fantasy that is sold to them for mass consumption, they would have greater authority in demanding that ISKCON live up to those principles which it claims to espouse.

[Guest guest]

The above sounds like a typical hindu

[shvu]

 

It is really incredible as to how little, contemporary Indians do know about their ancient "Sanatan Dharma", and to how materialistic we Indians have become, in the present decadent age of "Kali".

 

 

What is really incredible is the way some people set all logic aside and believe in such ideas. They are the real ignorant ones.

 

Just because a few dozen guys wrote some religious books does not mean the entire country was "spiritual". Such ridiculous ideas were first seen in the campaigns of Vivekananda as part of marketing his religious products at an international level and has been adopted by other religious organizations seeking followers from other countries. Perhaps it also works on some people and they join these organizations to invest their time and money. From a business perspective, any marketing campaign that works, is a good one.

 

Man has always been materialistic and will always be. This has nothing to do with India or Russia or South Africa. More importantly, there is nothing wrong with being materialistic as that is our true nature. If a set of children were left by themselves to survive with no contact with other humans, their concern would be survival followed by comfort as that the true nature of life. They are not going to sing Bhajans. On the other hand, Abstinence, control, etc are unnatural and artifically imposed by religion. It is the religious people who project material life as bad so they may prevail. I know plenty of "religious" people who are miserable and material people who are doing just fine. It is usually the misfits who are incapable of living in the present who look for life beyond death, etc.

 

About Sanathana Dharma: This is a funny one. No one here knows how or when this term was coined. Yet, people who really do not know what they are talking about take great pride in using every opportunity to say how SD is the right term to use and how Hinduism is the wrong term. If anyone is being fooled by these claims, it must be themselves.

 

What is the ancient religion of India? The ancient religion followed by the Harrapans or the Vedic religion followed by the Brahmanas? Neither of them exist today and if any modern day religious organization thinks they are following ancient practices, they are just kidding themselves.

 

The people of the Rig vedic period did not chant hare krishna, did not worship idols, did not eat halwa as prasadam, did not worship krishna in any way as he was not yet created at that time. Instead, they worshipped Indra, prayed that their enemies be vanquished, performed fire sacrifices, drank Soma juice and prayed for a good life of 100 years followed by a place in heaven after death. No link to the modern day ideals of iskcon or ramakrishna math or any other group in any way. People would be better off by accepting the truth and stop pretending that they are following ancient systems.

 

Do not be fooled by propoganda. Before choosing such life altering paths, verify their credibility from diverse, independent sources. You will be very surprised at the results.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

What is really incredible is the way some people set all logic aside and believe in such ideas. They are the real ignorant ones.

 

 

So believing in religion makes one ignorant? This is tantamount to insulting people of any religious background. What a progressive approach to religious discussion. Don't insult any particular religion, just insult them all.

 

 

Just because a few dozen guys wrote some religious books does not mean the entire country was "spiritual". Such ridiculous ideas were first seen in the campaigns of Vivekananda as part of marketing his religious products at an international level and has been adopted by other religious organizations seeking followers from other countries. Perhaps it also works on some people and they join these organizations to invest their time and money. From a business perspective, any marketing campaign that works, is a good one.

 

 

It must be very difficult for an emotionally unfulfilled atheist such as yourself to hail from a country with such a strong, spiritual tradition deeply ingrained within its culture.

 

 

Man has always been materialistic and will always be.

 

 

And isn't it just sheer coincidence that the people who want to drive this idea down our throats are themselves quite materialistic? People looking for a philosophy to justify their views...

 

 

About Sanathana Dharma: This is a funny one. No one here knows how or when this term was coined.

 

 

There are references to the term in the Mahabharata. But I doubt you really care.

 

 

Yet, people who really do not know what they are talking about take great pride in using every opportunity to say how SD is the right term to use and how Hinduism is the wrong term. If anyone is being fooled by these claims, it must be themselves.

 

 

 

I assume you do not really care for the facts, but let us examine them anyway:

 

1) "Hinduism" as a term has no origin in the very scriptures most people are quick to speak of as "Hindu," namely the Vedas and their adjunctive literatures

 

2) "Hinduism" is frequently hijacked by contemporary, neo-Vedantin groups who have little if anything to do with the Vedic tradition.

 

3) "Hinduism" as a term as only really become popular in its usage in the last several centuries. You will not find many indigenous, pre-colonial, pre-Mughal writings in which this term is used.

 

QED "Hinduism" is not the historically accurate term to describe the Vedic tradition. Of course, if you want to use it to describe the amorphous confusion of watered-down, mish-mash Neo-Advaita that has spawned Shvu and others like him, then I have no objection.

 

 

What is the ancient religion of India? The ancient religion followed by the Harrapans or the Vedic religion followed by the Brahmanas? Neither of them exist today and if any modern day religious organization thinks they are following ancient practices, they are just kidding themselves.

 

The people of the Rig vedic period did not chant hare krishna, did not worship idols, did not eat halwa as prasadam, did not worship krishna in any way as he was not yet created at that time. Instead, they worshipped Indra, prayed that their enemies be vanquished, performed fire sacrifices, drank Soma juice and prayed for a good life of 100 years followed by a place in heaven after death. No link to the modern day ideals of iskcon or ramakrishna math or any other group in any way. People would be better off by accepting the truth and stop pretending that they are following ancient systems.

 

 

 

There are so many unfounded claims in the above that one wonders whether there is any point in answering them. For starters, Vishnu as a Supreme Deity is explicitly mentioned in the Vedas, and thus there is no reason to assume that ancient Indians worshipped Indra but not Vishnu as a Supreme God. Secondly, there is no clear-cut evidence as to the origins of Harappan Valley religion, whether pre-Vedic or post-Vedic. Third, there is no evidence that Krishna worship was conceived of at any specific time. Fourth, there is really no evidence at all that Shvu has any idea as to what he is talking about.

 

All that is apparent is this: there is no shortage of atheistic Hindu nay-sayers who have cast off their Hindu religion in what they mistakenly take to be some kind of rationalist epiphany; yet they derive no joy from this so they must continue to come back here and harass those who don't wish to follow them.

 

Shvu, if you are really so satisfied with your materialistic lifestyle, then from whence comes this dissatisfaction that motivates you to continue harassing the ISKCON types here? I hope you aren't going to pull some shtick about how you just want people to respect facts, since you don't seem constrained to present any yourself.

 

Raghu

[gHari]

This sounded like you maybe?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4717679.stm

 

 

[shvu]

Raghu,

 

Arguments & counter arguments are of no use as you must be aware of. What I have to say is complete in itself and does not require further justification or defense. Besides, I just don't understand what you are saying just as I am sure, you did not get at least half of what I said.

 

 

Shvu, if you are really so satisfied with your materialistic lifestyle, then from whence comes this dissatisfaction that motivates you to continue harassing the ISKCON types here? I hope you aren't going to pull some shtick about how you just want people to respect facts, since you don't seem constrained to present any yourself.

 

 

I just read something that I find interesting and amusing and hopefully so will you. Some facts about Jim Carey, the unique movie star who is loved by some and hated by some. I love the guy, especially in the movie "Pet detective".

 

· As a child, he used to wear his tap shoes to bed just in case his parents needed cheering up in the middle of the night

 

· At age 10, he sent his resume to Carol Burnett

 

· At one point he and his family all worked as janitors at a factory to make a living.

 

· Wrote himself a check for $20 million and kept it in his wallet until he earned that amount for "The Cable Guy".

 

· First actor ever to reach 20 million dollar mark salary.

 

· Owns his own $25 million dollar plane.

 

Cheers

[Guest guest]

 

Arguments & counter arguments are of no use as you must be aware of.

 

 

Certainly they are of no use when arguing with those like yourself who repeatedly represent opinions as fact.

 

 

What I have to say is complete in itself and does not require further justification or defense.

 

 

 

... and this is precisely the attitude that characterizes bad science (the unwillingness to submit conclusions to objective cross examination). Your blind faith in the correctness of your conclusions is reminiscent of many of the religious fanatics your criticize. In reality, you both have more in common than either of you are prepared to admit.

 

 

Besides, I just don't understand what you are saying

 

 

You might find a refresher course on basic English comprehension to be helpful.

 

Raghu