How do you answer this...

[Guest guest]

Theist,

 

Who is the intelligent designer?

 

Brahma?

 

Brahma ain't the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

[Guest guest]

The bottom line for me, Theist, is that I do believe God Narayana oversees the flow of natural development that happens when the worlds are formed and dissolved. I do believe that a great person who the Vedas call Brahma engineers the structuring of Nature. Nature already exists and Brahma arranges material forces into orderly patterns for the purpose of facilitating life in the material worlds. But Brahma isn't a creator in the Biblical sense of the term "creator". The elements of nature are "beginningless" and they were never actually created - natural elements just get recycled again and again, throughout the aeons of time. I also believe souls can enter bodies that are ready for action, such as for instance when bodies of water form in a particular configuration where an apsara can just "inhabit" or "possess" a dancing wave of water. By possess, I mean as in when a ghost possesses some body. And I also believe that the Vedas don't deny the possiblity that a living being can just possess an oozing body of chemicals and emerge in a body that "spontaneously" forms within nature. Since I observe that human bodies form from bodily fluids and small packets of DNA which grow into a human shape during a ten month span of time. Now a scientist might argue that simple forms of life emerged through the combination organic materials in extreme conditions such as what are described here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophile Well, given that in the Upanishads, Vedanta and Manu Samhita (and elsewhere) there are statements that life can emerge from nature spontaneously, as in the case of small creatures emerging spontaneously from water, I simply cannot see that the materialist view of the creation of life is a theory that we have to fight against. My kids have asked me how life began on Earth. My personal view is that life was brought to earth from the stars. But I also have no problem with the idea that some creatures emerged in the depths of the ocean and swam to the surface, and reproduced, and evolved. Is this idea incompatible with what is in the Vedas? I don't believe it is. The soul is separate from the body and souls are never born. They just become incarnate in temporary material bodies that are created within material nature.

- muralidhar

[theist]

Who is speaking of Brahma??

 

And again who is speaking of Biblical anything?

 

Murali seriously we have exhausted this for now. You post your points I'll post mine but I don't think you are hearing me at all.

[Guest guest]

I am reading you and I'm hearing what you say.

 

To be honest, this topic is something I've been struggling with for many years. I used to believe in Intelligent Design but when I really examined the points in favour of it I came to the conclusion that this Intelligent Design theory is based on faulty research methodologies and nonsensical conclusions. It didn't really hurt my faith in Krishna Conciousness though. But it did make me pause to reconsider many things.

 

But like you suggested, let's just let this go...

- murali

[theist]

Murali, ask yourself what the alternative to intelligent design is. It is atheism. ID exists independently of the scriptures veda, Bible or whatever. You may think some of the explanations are faulty but I can't speak to that because I don't understand science and the jargon but just go back and read Bg 7.10.

 

I am convinced we are talking about two different things.

[Guest guest]

Theist said:

Murali, ask yourself what the alternative to intelligent design is. It is atheism.

 

----------

 

Theist, my friend, I don't think atheism is the only alternative to ID.

[Guest guest]

There is a good discussion about the nature/basis of the material world and of course the spiritual world.

 

Iskcon has got the Sarvabhana das's translation and of course the Narayan Maharaj's tranlation.

 

And please, in KC logic/philosophy discussions are secondary bhakti is the foremost.

 

Have you chanted today??? I think that is the most important question for now.

 

Haribol

 

[Guest guest]

of Jaiva Dharma.

 

Then let us know, your realization.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

 

Theist, my friend, I don't think atheism is the only alternative to ID.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Nasadiya Sukta, Rig Veda, X,129.1.

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In the beginning there was neither existence nor non-existence.

There was neither the realm of space nor the sky beyond.

What stirred? Where? In whose protection?

Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?

 

There was neither death nor immortality then.

There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.

That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.

Other than that there was nothing beyond.

 

Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,

with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.

The life force that was covered with emptiness,

that One arose through the power of heat.

 

Desire came upon that One in the beginning,

that was the first seed of mind.

Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom

found the bond of existence and non-existence.

 

Their cord was extended across.

Was there below? Was there above?

There were seed-placers, there were powers.

There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.

 

Who really knows?

Who will here proclaim it?

Whence was it produced?

Whence is this creation?

The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.

Who then knows whence it has arisen?

 

Whence this creation has arisen

perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not;

the One who looks down on it,

in the highest heaven, only He knows

or perhaps He does not know.

</font>

[theist]

Matter is inert. It does not possess initiaive to form itself or to choose to leave itself unformed.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dr. Daniel Murphey: I wanted to clarify one point. In Kapila's system of

analysis, Sankhya, he says that pradhana (maya) is "that unmanifested matter

which is eternal." You say that everything is consciousness. Is

pradhana also composed of consciousness?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj: Yes. What is material is only the

misconception which is the cause of all this material existence. But it

also has personality - Devi the goddess.

[Guest guest]

I first heard this story from Srila Sridhar Maharaj

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The Devi Mahatmyam of Sri MarkaNDeya PuraaNa

 

The king said:

 

59-62. 'Venerable sir, who is that Devi whom you call Mahamaya? How did she come into being, and what is her sphere of action, O Brahmana? What constitutes her nature? What is her form? Wherefrom did she originate? All that I wish to hear from you, O you supreme among the knowers of Brahman.' The Rishi said:

 

63-71. She is eternal, embodied as the universe. By her all this is pervaded. Nevertheless she incarnates in manifold ways; hear it from me. When she manifests herself in order to accomplish the purposes of the devas, she is said to be born in the world, though she is eternal. At the end of a kalpa when the universe was one ocean( with the waters of the deluge) and the adorable Lord Vishnu stretched out on Sesa and took the mystic slumber, two terrible asuras, the well-known Madhu and Kaitabha, sprung into being from the dust of Vishnu's ears, sought to slay Brahma; Brahma, the father of beings, was sitting in the lotus( that came out) from Vishnu's navel. Seeing these two fierce asuras and Janardhana asleep, and with a view to awakening Hari, (Brahma) with concentrated mind extolled Yoganidra, dwelling in Hari's eyes. The resplendent Lord Brahma extolled the incomparable Goddess of Vishnu, Yoganidra, the queen of cosmos, the supporter of the worlds, the cause of the sustentation and dissolution alike (of the universe).

 

72-74. Brahma said: 'You are Svaha and Svadha. You are verily the Vasatkara and embodiment of Svara. You are the nectar. O eternal and imperishable One, you are the embodiment of the threefold mantra. You are half a matra, though eternal. You are verily that which cannot be uttered specifically. You are Savitri and the supreme Mother of the devas.

 

75-77. 'By you this universe is borne, by you this world is created. By you it is protected, O Devi and you always consume it at the end. O you who are (always) of the form of the whole world, at the time of creation you are of the form of the creative force, at the time of sustentation you are of the form of the protective power, and at the time of the dissolution of the world, you are of the form of the destructive power. You are the supreme knowledge as well as the great nescience, the great intellect and contemplation, as also the great delusion, the great devi as also the great asuri.

 

78-81. 'You are the primordial cause of everything, bringing into force the three qualities. You are the dark night of periodic dissolution. You are the great night of final dissolution, and the terrible night of delusion. You are the goddess of good fortune, the ruler, modesty, intelligence characterized by knowledge, bashfulness, nourishment, contentment, tranquility and forbearance. Armed with sword, spear, club, discus, conch , bow, arrows, slings and iron mace, you are terrible( and at the same time) you are pleasing, yea more pleasing than all the pleasing things and exceedingly beautiful. You are indeed the supreme Isvari, beyond the high and low.

 

82-87. 'And whatever of wherever a thing exists, conscious( real) or non-conscious (unreal), whatever power there is, all of that is possessed by yourself. O you who are the soul of everything, how can I extol you (more than this)? By you, even the Lord Himself who creates, sustains and devours the world, is put to sleep. Who is here capable of extolling you? Who is capable of praising you? O Devi, being lauded thus, bewitch these two unassailable asuras Madhu and Kaitabha with your superior powers. Let Vishnu, the Master of the world, be quickly awakened from sleep and rouse up his nature to slay these two great asuras.' The Rishi said:

 

88-95. There, the Devi of delusion extolled thus by Brahma, the creator, in order to awaken Vishnu for the destruction of Madhu and Kaitabha, drew herself out from His eyes, mouth, nostrils, arms, heart and breast, and appeared in the sky in the full view of Brahma of inscrutable birth. Sri Vishnu Janardana, Lord of the universe, quitted by her mood of sleepfulness, rose up from His couch on the universal ocean, and saw those two evil(asuras), Madhu and Kaitabha, of exceeding heroism and power, with eyes red in anger, endeavoring to devour Brahma. Thereupon the all-pervading Bhagavan Vishnu got up and fought with the asuras for five thousand years, using his own arms as weapons. And they, frenzied with their exceeding power, and deluded by Mahamaya, exclaimed to Vishnu, 'Ask a boon from us for we feel great enjoyment fighting with you.' Bhagavan(Vishnu) said:

 

96-98. 'If you are satisfied with me, then what I ask is that you must both be slain by me now. What need is there of any other boon here? This is my choice.' The Rishi said:

 

99-101. Those two(asuras), thus bewitched (by Mahamaya), gazing then at the entire world turned into water, told Bhagavan, the lotus eyed One, 'Yes, you can slay us but only at a spot where the earth is not flooded with water.' The Rishi said:

 

102-104. Saying 'So be it', Bhagavan(Vishnu), the great wielder of conch, discus and mace, took them on His loins wherein the earthly world lies dormant and there severed their heads with His discus. Thus it was that she, Mahamaya herself, first appeared when praised by Brahma. Here ends the first chapter called 'The slaying of Madhu and Kaitabha' of Devi mahatmya in Markandeya purana, during the period of Savarni, the Manu.

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[theist]

So is coming to perceive some aspect of the Lord through the nomenclature of modern science somehow not bonefide realization?

 

Is the Lord unable to reveal Himself through physics?

[Guest guest]

I don't know

-m.

[Guest guest]

Just imagine that all the scientists suddenly agree that life was created by God. Or instead of that, lets imagine that the politicians say that from now on all scientists have to believe in God or they will be killed or jailed (Iran has laws like that). The new schoolbooks that kids will read will say that God made the world and that God wants us to follow the rules in the scriptures. In the USA there will be one set of rules, in Iraq there will be another set. Then after these wonderful events happen most people will just go on with their lives as they do now. In the USA people will go to Mcdonalds for lunch. And in Iran they will have barbecued sheep ribs for lunch. People everywhere will be living according to the laws of God.

 

I can just imagine it. People will be sitting around the table at the local Mcdonalds, and someone will be saying "For what we are about to receive, we are truly thankful." Then a girl with a red hat will bring them burgers and french fries. The burgers will all have two beef patties and a sesame seed bun. The world will be a beautiful, holy place. And everyone will drink Coca-cola.

 

Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord.

 

[Guest guest]

All glories to Guru and Gauranga

 

This is especially for Muralidhar and Theist. I scanned this from Jaiva Dharma. If there are mistakes especially in the sanskrit terms, it's my mistakes and I apologize for that. The process, scanned it first in picture form and I had to convert it into Word text which can't handle some sanskrit fonts.

 

What I can understand from here is that Krishna himself is aloof from this process. His shakti does it for Him. Also It seems like there is a semblance of evolution "transformation" from one form to another. And of course without the jiva, even when the gross elements and subtle elements combine , there would be no activity.

 

 

"Vrajanatha: What is the difference betWeen maya and avidya?

Babaji: Maya is a sakti of Krishna. Sri Krishna has created the material

universe through her, and has instigated her to purify the jivas who

are averse to Him. Mayai has two aspects: avidya and pradhana

Avidya is related to the jivas, whereas pradhana is related to inert

matter. The entire inert, mundane world has originated -

pradhana, whereas the jiva's desire to perform material activity

originates in avidya. There are also two other divisions of maya

namely vidya (knowledge) and avidya (forgetfulness), ~

which are related to the jiva. Avidya binds the jiva, whereas vidya

 

liberates him. The faculty of avidya keeps working as long as the

aparadhi-jiva continues to forget Krishna,but when he becomes

favorable to Krishna).,this is replaced by the faculty of vidai.Brahmajfnana

and so on are only particular activities of the tendency for

knowledge (vidya-rvTtti).When discrimination first develops, the

jiva tries to engage in auspicious activities, and when discrimination

has matured, spiritual knowledge manifests. Avidya covers the

jiva, and vidya removes that covering.

Vrajanatha: What is the function of the pradhana?

Babaji:When Isvara's endeavor, represented byTime (kaila), stimulates

maya-prakrti, it first creates the unmanifest aggregate of the

material elements (mahat-tattva). Matter (dravya) is created bythe

stimulation of the faculty of maya called pradhana. False ego

(ahankara)isborn from a transformation of mahat~tattva,and space

(akaSa)is created from a tamasika transformation of the false ego.

Air is created from a transformation of space, and fire is created

from a transformation of air. Water is then created by the transformation

Qffire, and earth is created by the transformation of

water. This is how the material elements are created. They are

called the five gross elements (panica-maha-bhutas).

Now hear how the five sense objects (panca-tanmattra) are created.

Kala (time) stimulates the faculty of prakrti caned avidya

and creates the tendencies within the mahat-tattva for karma and

jnana.When the karma propensity of mahat-tattva is transformed,

;[creates knowledge (jnana) and activities (kriya) from sattva and

rajo-gunas) respectively. Mahat-tattva is also transformed to be-

comeahantkara .Intelligence (buddhi) is then created from a transformation

'of ahankara. Sound (sabda) which is the property of

'space (akasa) is created from the transformation of buddhi. The

property of touch (sparsa) is created from the transformation of

sound, and it includes both touch, quality of air, and sound, quality of space.

Prana(life-air), oja (energy), and bala (strength) are

ceated from this quality of touch. From a transformation of touch

the property of form and color in illuminating objects is generated

Fire has three qualities, namely, form, touch and s

When this quality is transformed by time, it is transformed

the four qualities, taste (rasa), form, touch and sound in water

When they are further transformed, the result is the five qualities

in earth which are smell (gandha), taste, form, touch and

sound. All the activities of transformation take place by the

propriate aid of the purusa in His form of consciousness.

(caitanya).

There are three kinds of ahankiira: vaikiirika (siittvika), ta..-

(rajasika), and tamas. The maferial elements are born from sattvika

ahankiara, and the ten senses are born from rajasika- ahankara

There are two types of senses: those for acquiring knowledge

(nana-indriya) and the working senses (karma-indriya). The eyes

ears, nose, tongue and skin are the five senses for acquiring knowledge

; and speech, hands, feet, anusa nd genital are the five working

senses. Even if the five gross elements (panca-mha-bhuta combine

with the subtle elements (sukma-bhuta), there is still no

activity unless the atomic, conscious jiva enters into them. As soon

as the anut-cit-jiva, who is a localized particle within the ray ~

Bhagavan's glance, enters into the body made of maha-bhuta and

suksma-bhata, all the activities are set in motion. The sattvika an...

rajasika-gunas become fit to function when they combine with

tamasika objects that are a transformation of pradhana. One should

deliberate on the functions of avidya and pradhana in this way.

There are twenty-four elements of maya: the five gross element

(maha-bhatas), namely, earth, water, fire, air and space; the five

sense-objects, namely smell, taste, form, touch and sound; the five

senses for acquiring knowledge; the five working senses; mind;

intelligence, citta and ahankara. These are the twenty-four elements

of material nature. The atomic conscious jiva who enters into the

body made of twenty-four elements is the twenty-fifth elemem

and Paramatma Isvara is the twenty-sixth.