Were the kumaras brama vadis or not ?

September 5, 2005

this is a bit confusing issue

This verse seems to suggest they were not !

SB 3.15.38: The sages, headed by Sanaka Rsi, saw that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Visnu, who was formerly visible only within their hearts in ecstatic trance, had now actually become visible to their eyes. As He came forward, accompanied by His own associates bearing all paraphernalia, such as an umbrella and a camara fan, the white bunches of hair moved very gently, like two swans, and due to their favorable breeze the pearls garlanding the umbrella also moved, like drops of nectar falling from the white full moon or ice melting due to a gust of wind.

These verses suggest they were !

SB 3.15.43: When the breeze carrying the aroma of tulasi leaves from the toes of the lotus feet of the Personality of Godhead entered the nostrils of those sages, they experienced a change both in body and in mind, even though they were attached to the impersonal Brahman understanding.

SB 3.15.44: The Lord's beautiful face appeared to them like the inside of a blue lotus, and the Lord's smile appeared to be a blossoming jasmine flower. After seeing the face of the Lord, the sages were fully satisfied, and when they wanted to see Him further, they looked upon the nails of His lotus feet, which resembled rubies. Thus they viewed the Lord's transcendental body again and again, and so they finally achieved meditation on the Lord's personal feature.

SB 3.15.45: This is the form of the Lord which is meditated upon by the followers of the yoga process, and it is pleasing to the yogis in meditation. It is not imaginary but factual, as proved by great yogis. The Lord is full in eight kinds of achievement, but for others these achievements are not possible in full perfection.

September 6, 2005

The Kumaras were brahma-vadis before they smelled the Tulasi on the lotus feet of Narayana.

After that they entered into santa-rasa, which is the beginning stage of bhakti.

The interesting fact is that they cursed the gatekeepers of Narayana (Jai and Vijay) when they were brahma-vadi impersonalists.

Jai and Vijay were Vaishnavas and so it is strange indeed that Narayana Himself allowed the curse of some mayavadis to have an effect upon his Vaishnava associates Jai and Vijay. In the case of king Ambarish, when he was cursed by the impersonalist rishi Durvasa we read that Lord Naarayana's chakra Sudarshan chased Ambarish and punished him, whereas in the case of Jai/Vijay they were sent to the mundane world. A very peculiar sequence of events.

I wonder why Naarayana didn't punish the Kumaras for the offence of cursing his devotees Jai and Vijay? I guess it is because of the fact that as soon as they smelled the tulasi they also became Vaishnavas. We read that after the Kumaras depart from the gate of Vaikuntha the Lord Narayana tells Jay and Vijay that the reason he allows the curse to persist is that he wanted to enjoy some pastimes of "virya-rasa" (fighting) in the material world. So in the end it is Narayana's desire that is being fulfilled in this pastime. A very peculiar pastime.

-murali.

September 8, 2005

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26

sri-bhagavan uvaca

etau suretara-gatim pratipadya sadyah

samrambha-sambhrta-samadhy-anubaddha-yogau

bhuyah sakasam upayasyata asu yo vah

sapo mayaiva nimitas tad aveta viprah

SYNONYMS

sri-bhagavan uvaca -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead replied; etau -- these two doorkeepers; sura-itara -- demoniac; gatim -- the womb; pratipadya -- obtaining; sadyah -- quickly; samrambha -- by anger; sambhrta -- intensified; samadhi -- concentration of mind; anubaddha -- firmly; yogau -- united with Me; bhuyah -- again; sakasam -- to My presence; upayasyatah -- shall return; asu -- shortly; yah -- which; vah -- of you; sapah -- curse; maya -- by Me; eva -- alone; nimitah -- ordained; tat -- that; aveta -- know; viprah -- O brahmanas.

TRANSLATION

The Lord replied: O brahmanas, know that the punishment you inflicted on them was originally ordained by Me, and therefore they will fall to a birth in a demoniac family. But they will be firmly united with Me in thought through mental concentration intensified by anger, and they will return to My presence shortly.

PURPORT

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuntha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuntha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

In Bhagavad-gita (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gita the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhagavatam.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.29

bhagavan anugav aha

yatam ma bhaistam astu sam

brahma-tejah samartho 'pi

hantum necche matam tu me

SYNONYMS

bhagavan -- the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anugau -- to His two attendants; aha -- said; yatam -- depart from this place; ma -- let there not be; bhaistam -- fear; astu -- let there be; sam -- happiness; brahma -- of a brahmana; tejah -- the curse; samarthah -- being able; api -- even; hantum -- to nullify; na icche -- do not desire; matam -- approved; tu -- on the contrary; me -- by Me.

TRANSLATION

The Lord then said to His attendants, Jaya and Vijaya: Depart this place, but fear not. All glories unto you. Though I am capable of nullifying the brahmanas' curse, I would not do so. On the contrary, it has My approval.

PURPORT

As explained in connection with text 26, all the incidents that took place had the approval of the Lord. Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there. All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world. Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuntha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you." A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.

Kulapavana · September 8, 2005

"The interesting fact is that they cursed the gatekeepers of Narayana (Jai and Vijay) when they were brahma-vadi impersonalists.

Jai and Vijay were Vaishnavas and so it is strange indeed that Narayana Himself allowed the curse of some mayavadis to have an effect upon his Vaishnava associates Jai and Vijay."

please do not confuse brahma-vadis with maya-vadis. there is a world of difference between the two. it is a sheer ignorance of some devotees to lump the two together.