"virgin birth"

[theist]

Health News

 

 

Researchers develop `virgin conception`

Sep 10, 2005, 20:35 GMT

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DUBLIN, Ireland (UPI) -- Scottish researchers have developed a 'virgin conception' -- made not by a fertilized egg but from an egg that had been tricked into dividing.

 

Dr. Paul de Sousa of Edinburgh University told the British Association meeting in Dublin, Ireland, it took around 300 human eggs to create half a dozen blastocysts -- human embryos that consist of around 50 cells, the Daily Telegraph reported Saturday.

 

They can be used as a source of stem cells that can be grown into all 200 or so types in the body and used for a vast range of treatments.

 

Attempts to grow stem cells from the blastocysts have not yet succeeded, as they have in non-human primates, but De Sousa said he was confident it was only a matter of time.

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So, how does the spiritualist respond?

 

 

 

 

[theist]

TRANSLATION Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.1

 

The Personality of Godhead said: Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semen to assume a particular type of body.

 

PURPORT (commentary by Bhaktivedanta Swami)

 

As stated in the last chapter, after suffering different kinds of hellish conditions, a man comes again to the human form of body. The same topic is continued in this chapter. In order to give a particular type of human form to a person who has already suffered hellish life, the soul is transferred to the semen of a man who is just suitable to become his father. During sexual intercourse, the soul is transferred through the semen of the father into the mother's womb in order to produce a particular type of body. This process is applicable to all embodied living entities, but it is especially mentioned for the man who was transferred to the Andha-tämisra hell. After suffering there, when he who has had many types of hellish bodies, like those of dogs and hogs, is to come again to the human form, he is given the chance to take his birth in the same type of body from which he degraded himself to hell.

Everything is done by the supervision of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Material nature supplies the body, but it does so under the direction of the Supersoul. It is said in Bhagavad-gétä that a living entity is wandering in this material world on a chariot made by material nature. The Supreme Lord, as Supersoul, is always present with the individual soul. He directs material nature to supply a particular type of body to the individual soul according to the result of his work, and the material nature supplies it. Here one word, retaù-kaëäçrayaù, is very significant because it indicates that it is not the semen of the man that creates life within the womb of a woman; rather, the living entity, the soul, takes shelter in a particle of semen and is then pushed into the womb of a woman. Then the body develops. There is no possibility of creating a living entity without the presence of the soul simply by sexual intercourse.* The materialistic theory that there is no soul and that a child is born simply by material combination of the sperm and ovum is not very feasible. It is unacceptable.

 

 

* Or by any other materialistic method such as the one discussed above or cloning.

[Guest guest]

A couple of points if i may...

 

This is to do with how humans procreate. As we well know, there are many organisms who procreate asexually, i.e. there is no semen whatsoever. In fact, the fertilised embryo utilises asexual reproduction to multiply many times over to eventually create a human. Even right now, the cells in our bodies are undergoing asexual reproduction to maintain the state of the body. Each of those cells are also alive and no doubt have souls... (any discussion on this point would be great)

 

 

"Or by any other materialistic method such as the one discussed above or cloning."

 

why not? I agree the soul MUST be there - i think this is what you are trying to say. However, even if the method is materialistic, who's to say that the soul does not enter? In fact, it positively must!! For years now scientists have performed in vitro fertilisations (outside of the body) and successfully helped many women become preganant and give birth to healthy children. So, even when fertilisation was done my material means, the soul STILL entered the embryo.

 

The same can be argued for numerous other organisms that are experimented on in labs, including plants and yeast species.

 

This raises an important point. Whatever scientists do in this material world, Krsna is obviously aware. Even though these methods are somewhat dubious Krsna (Supersoul) STILL directs the soul to enter the embryo. Therefore, though i do not completely agree with the work of the aforementioned scientist, i have no doubt that eventually he will be able to "create" stable and healthy and implantable embryos. But it is important to remember that this in no way violates our belief that there can be no life without soul - the soul is indeed there, directed by the Supersoul to be present.

 

G.

[Guest guest]

 

I am curious.

 

Can you conceive or imagine some kind of evidence that would unsettle your belief that life requires souls?

 

In other words, do you think there exists some evidence somewhere, in some form that can possibly "disprove" your religious beliefs? If yes, I would be interested to know what you think that would be.

 

Thanks,

Shiv

 

[theist]

 

This is to do with how humans procreate. As we well know, there are many organisms who procreate asexually, i.e. there is no semen whatsoever. In fact, the fertilised embryo utilises asexual reproduction to multiply many times over to eventually create a human. Even right now, the cells in our bodies are undergoing asexual reproduction to maintain the state of the body. Each of those cells are also alive and no doubt have souls... (any discussion on this point would be great)

 

 

 

I agree. I lack even rudimentary knowledge in this area and wanted to bring this up in hopes of inspiring conversation amongst devotees and other spiritualists on this topic.

 

This type of science will undoubtly by used by some as proof there is no need for a spirtsoul and that the whole idea of spirit and God was really just an old superstition from ignorant days.

 

If devotees want to be successful in their preacging, and of course they do, then we have to keep on the cutting edge of current societal movements and be able to point out the presence of the life particle amidst the material scientists attempts to further cloud over the soul.

 

BTW by material science I don't mean the discipline I mean the atheistic conclusions they reach.

 

 

 

 

"Or by any other materialistic method such as the one discussed above or cloning."

 

 

why not? I agree the soul MUST be there - i think this is what you are trying to say*. However, even if the method is materialistic, who's to say that the soul does not enter? In fact, it positively must!! For years now scientists have performed in vitro fertilisations (outside of the body) and successfully helped many women become preganant and give birth to healthy children. So, even when fertilisation was done my material means, the soul STILL entered the embryo.

 

 

 

Yes! Yes! You make my point much better than I do. Thank you. You sound as though you are a scientist or trained academic. The lay devotees and spirtiualists need to be given lessons that we can follow and that we can share with the lay populace in general to help protect them from the confusing nature of these new procedures that is getting more intense by the week.

 

 

 

This raises an important point. Whatever scientists do in this material world, Krsna is obviously aware. Even though these methods are somewhat dubious Krsna (Supersoul) STILL directs the soul to enter the embryo. Therefore, though i do not completely agree with the work of the aforementioned scientist, i have no doubt that eventually he will be able to "create" stable and healthy and implantable embryos. But it is important to remember that this in no way violates our belief that there can be no life without soul - the soul is indeed there, directed by the Supersoul to be present.

 

G.

[theist]

 

Can you conceive or imagine some kind of evidence that would unsettle your belief that life requires souls?

 

 

No Shiv, I expect all evidence to confirm the existence of God and the spiritsoul.

 

 

 

In other words, do you think there exists some evidence somewhere, in some form that can possibly "disprove" your religious beliefs? If yes, I would be interested to know what you think that would be.

 

 

Disprove myreligious beliefs? Oh yes! Most certainly. Perhaps disprove is not the correct word exactly. but what ever understanding I now hold of God is certainly mixed with misconceptions and falsehoods. Perhaps as much as 99% not to be corrected.

 

For example. I believe loving God is the goal of life, That won't change. But in fact I have no real understanding of what loving God means. I hear the term and my mind fills in the blank with some graven image of what God is and what it means to love Him but the truth of that statement lies beyond me.

 

So I expect my present beliefs to corrected but the fundemental truth of God's existence will only be clarified.

 

[Kulapavana]

there is a very long way between a human egg that has been coaxed into dividing, and a growth of a body suitable for a human being.

 

each cell in our body is actually a living entity. we are just a driver of the entire vehicle.

[Kulapavana]

it is generally described in the Vedic literature that the dominating human soul arrives in the semen. however, since the soul is not physical, that is not a limiting factor. and many lower animals and plants procreate asexually anyway.

[Guest guest]

Created the personality of death by thought, as most of his offspring were created. If I remember right, the story of Vasudeva and devaki also had children without sexual union while being imprisoned in the dungeons of Kamsa.

 

There are also cases where men have been impotent and women infertile, yet birth takes place. It is the strength of the self looking for residence that can make these exceptions, so I do not doubt virgin birth stories like that of Jesus, John, and many others, even solomon and mekeda had menelekh though they lived aspart, their love connected from jerusalem to the afar triangle.

 

Semen birth is good for the material scientist, but those who know the soul know that no spirit comes from material plasma or substance.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahak

[theist]

Agreed Kulapavana. But to those that don't have that understanding it looks like further indications that scientists may be creating life.

 

It brings up a question for philosophical speculation. What type of individual karma would it be to take such a birth? One that by-passes the consciousness of the parents.

[Guest guest]

Yes, i'm an academic and know only too well how difficult (at first) it is to reconcile this kind of science with spirituality... but as someone greater than me has already said: Spirituality begins where Science ends. This is the way we have to see things. You can make an ice sculpture but you can never change the constitution of water with an oridinary sculpting knife. Likewise, scientists are sculpting material nature to an extent but the underlying spiritual principles remain untouched because they are not using the correct tools.

 

"The lay devotees and spirtiualists need to be given lessons that we can follow and that we can share with the lay populace in general to help protect them from the confusing nature of these new procedures that is getting more intense by the week."

 

Totally agree!!! Some devotees are feeling uneasy with their faith all of a sudden. Whatever the children might do, mother always remains in control with one eye on he kids. Krsna is like a billion mothers and keeps all eyes on her children, whatever transgressions they make. Krsna makes the rules and, like it or not, split atom or not, clone or not, virgin birth or not, all laws always hold.

 

This reminds me - i did do some cloning back at uni and i thought "what a sham!" Cloning is such a no-no word among many spiritualists, as evolution is, but when you look at the biology of it it is such a natural process. Cloning was there looooooong before the word was invented or the process was even discovered. It happens all the time - in bacteria, plants and even our bodies. Does this violate spiritual principles? No. Certainly not. There is life there, therefore there is Soul there. Simple. Digressing a tiny bit into Karmic Science, what directs a soul to be present? It is Karma (Krsna via Karma). What motivated a scientist to experiment in the first place? Again, Karma (at least in part). So all laws are being obeyed - its just stupid scientists like me that often think "i have done x, y, z" forget that they have done nothing except sculpt the ice.

 

You're idea about a book or mag that deals with this sort of thing is great - The western world already has Scientology, but we need Vishnology. /images/graemlins/wink.gif i wonder if Back To Godhead would be interested in this kind of thing?

 

G.

[Guest guest]

"Can you conceive or imagine some kind of evidence that would unsettle your belief that life requires souls?"

 

Not anymore. I will not say my faith is concete, coz if i do Krsna will end up testing it (that's the kind of joker he is) and i will probably fail... but i HOPE there is nothing that can knock my faith - i found that once i accepted God as the Master and tried to love him (still trying) all other philosophy or doubt of his mastery fell away... Accepting Him as the Master and Creator of the laws of Science has helped me reconcile science and spirituality in a way i would not have believed a few years ago.

 

"do you think there exists some evidence somewhere, in some form that can possibly "disprove" your religious beliefs? If yes, I would be interested to know what you think that would be."

 

From the subject on souls and life, a few years ago i might have pondered on things like worms!! You know you can cut a worm in two and the two bits that are left will live independantly of each other? That BOGGLED my beliefs - but i hope i'm over that now. As i said before, once you have accepted God as the Overlord of all things (and you can do this even if you're a scientist!) then, and this is just my experience and opinion, any evidence that is contrary is only SEEMINGLY contrary. It's all about perspective. I can see things from the ground and make conclusion x. Then i see things from 200 feet above and make conclusion y, which is very different. A simple thing as shifting perspective can be very powerful.

 

Retracting from the subject a little bit...... i don't want to insult anyone here, devotee or not, but these are just my opinions...... i think in organised religion, such as Catholicism or even ISKCON, there is too much... how to say... orthodoxy? I'm finding it difficult to find the words.... OK a case example: If i am religious then i am sticking to my doctrine pretty much word for word. However, divinely approved or not, the number of words you can put in any book is limited. This has the unfortunate consequence of also limiting my own thinking - i become almost narrow-minded, i guess. And so when people speak of evolution or cloning or IVF or nuclear physics, i cannot accept these things because there is nothing (or little) in my doctrine that can guide me. That's because the doctrine in thousands of years old and doesn;t necessarily apply wholly to this day and age (or maybe it does and i just don't have the "right" perpective).

 

There is a simple solution: I can just try and love and serve my God, be it Krsna, Allah, Ram etc. Serve Him and Love Him and pray that i get direction. Acceptance of His Supremacy is almost instantaneous and once i actually REALISE this then all philosophy and science falls away. What can a scientist do that God hasn't, in some shape or form, sanctioned by His own laws?

 

I don't know if i explained this the way i meant it or thought it in my head... anyway, that's a digresssion away from the subject of this thread... just a few thoughts....

 

G.

[theist]

 

i wonder if Back To Godhead would be interested in this kind of thing?

 

 

Or how about you? You have a nice clear writing style thtat brought your post above across to me in a way I could follow and the last biology class I showed up for was in the eighth grade. I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of pasting it on a thread on the same topic I began on another forum.

 

The ability to bring some complex concepts into a simple form to give to ordinary folks is really a gift. "Essential truth spoken concisely is true eloquence."

 

What the world needs is knowledge in a form that they will readily accept. Old stories of kings and kingdoms, rather literal or not, will not interest most or be taken seriously. How to practically recognize the life particle separate from dull matter packaged in a topic that they are already interested in is a good approach I believe. They don't get defensive as they do if they think you are trying to convert them to a religion of some kind.

 

Like abortion for example. That is the debate board I post the virgin birth article to and later added your post to. Afterall they are often debating "when does life start?" Someone posts that life does not begin at all as it is ever existing and the conversation takes of and the next thing you know you are into karma and reincarnation. At least the oblique approach works for me.

 

Small books on up to date topics and without the heavy sanskrit could be very effective.

 

First priority is how to see the self as distinct from the material form. Then how to see the Superself within and without. Rasa dance comes later.

 

Hare Krsna

 

[Guest guest]

Wow! Ok, my ego just spiked a little with that post, Theist.... thanks for the kind words....

 

"I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of pasting it on a thread on the same topic I began on another forum"

 

No probs.

 

You're right about the approach we must take with people not just here in the west, but the growing number of misled yuoths in India and Asia at large also. It's often very hard to tell people about spiritual worlds and Half-Man-Half-Lion Incarnations etc etc... for someone who doesn't know anything about Vedas it's all alot to take in. And yes, the approach must be in connection with something they're interested in/debating already.

 

Abortion is a good subject to approach this kind of thing, as are the subjects of human cloning and evolution. Theist, and everone else, can you think of any other subjects that are debated for/against spirituality and the existence of God?

 

By the way, how do you guys do that "In reply to" thing on your posts?

 

 

[Guest guest]

Wow! Ok, my ego just spiked a little with that post, Theist.... thanks for the kind words....

 

"I hope you don't mind but I took the liberty of pasting it on a thread on the same topic I began on another forum"

 

No probs.

 

You're right about the approach we must take with people not just here in the west, but the growing number of misled yuoths in India and Asia at large also. It's often very hard to tell people about spiritual worlds and Half-Man-Half-Lion Incarnations etc etc... for someone who doesn't know anything about Vedas it's all alot to take in. And yes, the approach must be in connection with something they're interested in/debating already.

 

Abortion is a good subject to approach this kind of thing, as are the subjects of human cloning and evolution. Theist, and everone else, can you think of any other subjects that are debated for/against spirituality and the existence of God?

 

By the way, how do you guys do that "In reply to" thing on your posts?

 

Hari Bol

 

G.

 

[theist]

 

By the way, how do you guys do that "In reply to" thing on your posts?

 

 

Before the quote you want to post place [ q u o t e ] (without the spaces)

 

Then paste the copied quote.

 

After the quote place [ / q u o t e ] (without the spaces)

 

There is a Test board at the bottom of the start page.

[theist]

 

Abortion is a good subject to approach this kind of thing, as are the subjects of human cloning and evolution. Theist, and everone else, can you think of any other subjects that are debated for/against spirituality and the existence of God?

 

 

The topics are endless because everything relates to Krsna.

 

I also visit the animal rights debate board. I oppose animal slaughter on the grounds that it is cruel, against God's will for human conduct and the person performing the slaughter will then suffer for it in a future lifetime by perhaps becoming a slaughtered animal themselves.

 

This opens up an angle of the debate that has been missing. It allows me to make the point that the body is not the self (or how could it reincarnate), there is karmic law, there is a God(or how could karmic law be carried out?), there is a purpose to human life which is to find God and which we destroy for ourselves when we live a cruel life etc. As long as we connect all these points up directly to animal rights it stays on topic and allows for the planting of many many seeds from the Vaisnava point of view.

 

I go to a public forum called beliefnet. They have a large discussion list on cloning, evolution, Intelligent design and many many more. Plus evry kind of imaginable religion. They even have a Hindu section which includes Vaisnavism and Hare Krsna.

 

It is something like going to a public square and exchanging ideas with who ever comes by. They get a large

number of people participating and reading and who knows maybe a seed or two will make someone curious enough to inquire more.

 

Devotees have absorbed a lot of knowledge and this is a good accessable place to share a little.

 

beliefnet.com Click on discussions

 

http://www.beliefnet.com/index.html?rnd=670

 

Here is their topics list.

 

· 12-step Spirituality

· Abortion

· Ancient Mysteries

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· more...

 

Each topic opens up to more separate boards. If someone wants to tell others about Krishna consciousness you can do it here without leaving your house.

 

Then come back home to Audarya.

[Guest guest]

thanks for quot details...

 

And thanks for that url and list!! That's alot of topics... some of those are books unto themselves! Theist, you've given me something to really think about - thanks!

 

G.

[theist]

pranams