John Paul's last words in Polish...

[Guest guest]

'Let me go to the house of the Father,' said dying pope.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/09/17/pope.last.words.ap/index.html

 

[Guest guest]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[stonehearted]

What that means depends a lot on what his conception of Godhead is. If it's a "heavenly father" kind of thing, it may be that he's headed for upper planetary systems. It sure doesn't mean going to Goloka. This gentleman was a very long way from that goal.

[Guest guest]

I agree that Pope has a long way to Goloka, most likely a Vaishnava in his next birth.

 

He will probably reach the planet of Jesus and be there till his time runs out and may be born as a Vaishnava in his next birth.

 

This is all, considering that he was a righteous person in Christianity including no meat eating. Karma is Karma for everyone and anyone in this material world.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[stonehearted]

Guest:

This is all, considering that he was a righteous person in Christianity including no meat eating.

 

 

I find this sentence very confusing (perhaps confused). While we may find much in his character that suggests piety, "no meat eating" is certainly not among them. His taste for meat, especially veal, is well known. Can you explain or clarify your comment?

[Guest guest]

as exalted as Pope John Paul would reach Goloka, meat-eating or not. regulative principles dont apply to such spiritually elevated souls. Karma applies to all of us, not to great souls like SP or Pope. I think that's waht Anandji is trying to say.

[Guest guest]

Actually, what i was saying is, Karma is the law of nature suited for everyone. I can give some example in the current and olden days.

 

However exalted a devotee of God may be, if he/she breaks that law, he/she no longer is exalted. For example, if you know sage Vishwamitra, he was an exalted devotee of the Lord but fell down (he lost his mystic powers) due to his association with a lady. The conclusion from this story is, however advanced one may be, if one breaks the law, he has to pay for it. The flip side of it is, advanced devotees will not break the law, that is why they are advanced.

 

Same way, currently, SP had many advanced devotees in ISKCON, but some of them fell down due to material deeds or in other words were inflicted by Maya. Again, advancement in God consciousness is measured by purity.

 

We can argue that the Pope who dedicated his entire life for his faith and lived a very secluded and pious life- is he part of this law of Karma. My opinion- YES.

 

Does it mean the Pope was not pure, No, iam not saying that. What iam saying is, in his level of understanding he was pure and that is enough for one to be born as a Vaishnava again. For example, eating meat is not wrong so as long as you can justify it but if you eat for the sake of pleasure, then one is in trouble. SO if the pope ate meat not considering the suffering of a living entity, and to enjoy his senses, then, in my opinion, i think he will recieve karma accordingly.

 

In other words, one can come from any background, faith or religiion and can be of any order or rank by birth or social position. That does not count. What counts is if one lives his/her life according to the revealed scriptures.

 

The old testament clearly says- "Thou shalt not kill" so- to me- there is no ambiguity in this statement, so you think if the pope eating meat is justified or not. I cannot say because i do not know anything about the pope, healthwise and otherwise.

 

The position of exaltness is by ones virtues and not social position or the number of followers.

 

This is my opionion!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[stonehearted]

Guest:

A person as exalted as Pope John Paul would reach Goloka, meat-eating or not.

 

 

Forgive my bluntness, but that's sentimental nonsense, and nothing more. This has nothing to do with regulative principles. In fact, attaining Goloka has nothing to do with regulative principles. Goloka is for those who have attained love for Krishna (not any other conception of God) following the sentiments of the residents of Vraja. Such persons would have nothing to do with killing or eating cows. As nice a John Paul II may have been in so many ways, his consciousness was not developed enough to appreciate the horror of animal slaughter.

 

Each religious path has its own destination. Goloka is the destination for perfect raganuga bhaktas, not for anyone else. That doesn't mean that he can't eventually be elevated, but it will only happen in the association of sadhus who understand the science of loving Krishna. One's position in a religious institution is not a factor. Period.

 

If you really have some interest in understanding what Goloka is about, I suggest that you read some literatures of the Gaudiya vaishnava acharyas in the company of advanced (or at least advancing) devotees. That doesn't mean you have to join any club or change your clothes; you will, however, need to change your heart.

[Guest guest]

but you could've been more gentle. I wasn't arguing but just putting forth my views. You could've disagreed politely.

[stonehearted]

The opinion you expressed represents a gross misunderstanding of Goloka and of spiritual advancement, and it was not presented tentatively. Rather, you made a categorical assertion. I admitted that I was responding bluntly; please explain what was impolite so I can adjust my remarks in the future. Should I have said that you may be right, but I disagree? That would simply be disingenuous, diplomatic bullpucky. One quality of a devotee is simplicity, which means freedom from duplicity (a synonym for diplomacy). I intended to be direct; if that seems rude to you, I'm sorry for that.

[krsna]

"If you really have some interest in understanding what Goloka is about, I suggest that you read some literatures of the Gaudiya vaishnava acharyas in the company of advanced (or at least advancing) devotees. That doesn't mean you have to join any club or change your clothes; you will, however, need to change your heart."

 

[stonehearted]

We are the living graves of murdered beasts,

Slaughtered to satisfy our appetites.

We never pause to wonder at our feasts,

If animals, like men, can possibly have rights.

We pray on Sundays that we may have light,

To guide our footsteps on the path we tread.

We're sick of war,we do not want to fight--

The thought of it now fills our hearts with dread,

And yet--we gorge ourselves upon the dead.

 

Like carrion crows, we live and feed on meat,

Regardless of the suffering and pain

We cause by doing so, if thus we treat

Defenceless animals for sport or gain,

How can we hope in this world to attain

The PEACE we say we are so anxious for.

We pray for it, o’er hecatombs of slain,

To God, while outraging the moral law

Thus cruelty begets its offspring--WAR

 

--George Bernard Shaw

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, one should be straight forward and cut the knots of doubts in ones heart by a sword.

 

When Arjuna was asking questions in the Gita, Lord Krishna was referred to as Kesava becasue Lord Krishna killed the demon Kesi.

 

Here the metaphor is, Srila Prabhupada says, the doubts in the mind of Arjuna is like the demon and one should kill the doubts and not entertain.

 

It is very important we should see things in its right position and not be sentimental about things.

 

Pope John Paul might have been a good person according to the general public and the catholic followers. He may have done a lot of help for humanity and for that he sure will be rewarded. In the same breadth, if he engeged in meat eating for his senses, Krishna will award him accordingly.

 

Lets be clear about that. No one is above the laws of nature. Krishna knows who gets what and how. We dont have to talk or discuss those isssues.

 

But, we have to be clear that everyone has to abide by the laws of nature and show love and affection to all moving and non-moving entities and not only that we should all serve Lord Krishna who is the Supreeme Personality of Godhead and become humble and tolerant towards all.

 

Only this will get us to Goloka and not some sentimental feeling that i have done some good (charity) while i have also engaged in sense enjoyment.

 

This is, unfortunately, the attitude of the western civilisation. Let us go to church on sundays, ask sorry, spend 1% or 2% of our income on charity and there, we become born again and are the best citizens. This is very narrow and selfish. Unfortunately, the majority of Indians are depsrately trying to seek this lifestyle.

 

So, let us all serve God and His creation not by blindness or sentiment but by knowledge and reasoning.

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

"Karma applies to all of us, not to great souls like SP or Pope"

 

I would like to comment and give my personal opinion on this line.

 

I think there is no way one can compare the Pope with SP. SP is beyond comparison and a great soul who saw everything as it is. He is EXALTED and in front of his exaltedness, the pope falls way behind.

 

So, i dont think we should put the Pope and SP in the same sentence with the same respect.....I dont think so!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[Guest guest]

do you think the pope falls way behind? Wasn't he as exatled as SP? So many people began to love Krishna (they call him Yahweh) after meeting him.

[Guest guest]

"do you think the pope falls way behind? Wasn't he as exatled as SP? So many people began to love Krishna (they call him Yahweh) after meeting him"

 

there are so many things...where to start!! ill highlight the main points...

 

Before i say anything further, i want to say i dont have anything against the pope or the christian faith per se. What i dont agree is certain blind beliefs the christians have, one of them is the "meat eating".

 

Till now, iam not able to comprehend one thing- How can one deliver the message of love of God to the common man while he is all the time supporting animal slaughter. Are you telling me, eating an animal is a normal thing and it is ok?

 

I dont think so!

 

One should not be sentimental in mind, Yes, the pope has done a lot of humanitarian efforts changing peoples lives, I accept and i adore him for that for not everyone has done or sacrificed like him.

 

However, from an ordinary man standpoint, he is great, but when compared to SP and from a philosophical standpoint, he is no where close.

 

As SP said, building hosipitals and schools is no use. Most often, the chirstian religion only does this type of work and does not teach love for god. They think by helping people in this fashion, one can go to heaven, and the pope was no different.

 

While it may be in the mode of goodness, it is still no use, because, if one is truly compassionate towards a living entity, one should deliver the entity for eternity and not for small time period and also, how many people can u actually help with hospitals and schools. It is not possible to deliver entire humanity.So, in that sense, it is important to see the difference.

 

From a philosophical standpoint, as per the Gita, one is born as a devotee of Krishna only if one is exalted if not one cannot be a devotee. Then, to become a first class (uttama adhikari) devotee like SP is the topmost and should be exalted. Obviously, the pope was not a devotee of Krishna and he was a meat eater. In that sense, the pope falls behind.

 

Love for God-Krishna is no ordinary feat and one has to be immensely exalted to achieve that position. One can see the difference only if we understand that love for Krishna is the topmost thing in any planet. If the pope propgated that, i would say he is exalted but he was just body conscious thinking the body is everything and did not educate the public on the consciousness of the soul which is eternal.

 

So, the fundamental difference is simple, SP was a great devotee of GOD and actually helped mankind in that sense, and the pope was just a humanitaria person who helped the masses only from a bodily perspective (body perspecitive does not help one go to God!)

 

As SP once said, a rickshawwala in Vrindavan is more exalted and high than the president of the USA.

 

see the difference!!!

 

It is all about Krishna and dedicating ones life to Krishna and nothing else!!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

 

 

[som]

 

As SP once said, a rickshawwala in Vrindavan is more exalted and high than the president of the USA.

 

 

Very interesting quotation! :-)

[theist]

whoops! wrong thread

[stonehearted]

"Guest":

Why do you think the pope falls way behind? Wasn't he as exatled as SP? So many people began to love Krishna (they call him Yahweh) after meeting him.

 

 

I'm a little surprised by such a question. This seems to indicate that the inquirer knows very little about Srila Prabhupada, about love, and about Krishna.

 

Pope John Paul II was not even in the same universe as Srila Prabhupada, much less on the same playing field. To suggest that he may have been as exalted as Srila Prabhupada shows that you have no clue about Srila Prabhupada's position. He is an uttama-bhagavat, advanced in love for Krishna, and was, according to exalted Vaishnavas, specifically empowered by Lord Nityananda to introduce the teachings of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu to the entire world. To begin to understand the cosmic difference between his position and John Paul's, you'd first need to have some limited grasp of the difference between the Krishna conception of Godhead and that of the Roman Catholic Church. Then you'd have to study under the guidance of advanced Vaishnavas just what we mean by love, especially love for Krishna (even love of God); it's a sense of utter selflessness unimaginable by anyone ignorant of the Krishna conception, much less infected by the modes of material nature.

 

The assertion that millions began to love Krishna after meeting John Paul is just wrong. Sorry--that's the mildest word I can use with any honesty. In worldly estimation, he was a great religious leader of a particular sect. I believe he was more responsible than any other single person for the fall of international Communism (sorry, Reagan lovers!). He was energetic and charismatic, and compassionate to an extent greater than most in the world. After all, he publicly forgave the man who tried to kill him (but this should not be a surprising act from the Vicar of Rome). But he was not anywhere near Srila Prabhupada in realization or surrender to God, nor was he anywhere near Francis of Assisi, who was a genuine saint, from everything I know of him. I'm not even sure he was as advanced as Mother Teresa of Calcutta, whom I met on two separate occasions, even though there were no doubt flaws in her realization and service. I do not intend to denigrate him in any way; nevertheless the truth must be presented clearly.

[Guest guest]

Totally concur with the 'stonerheart' post.

 

Lets all....say it once out loud...whoever reads this...

 

ALL GLORIES TO SRILA PRABHUPADA!

 

ALL GLORIES TO GARUANGA!

 

ALL GLORIES TO RADHA AND KRISHNA!

 

Haribol!

 

anand

[stonehearted]

I only wanted to point out that an informed examination shows a gulf of difference between the spiritual stature of even someone as inspired and inspiring as John Paul II and empowered, confidential associates of Lord Chaitanya and Lord Nityananda such as Srila Prabhupada. As Srila Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura says,

 

aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam

ramya kacid upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena ya kalpita

srimad-bhagavatam pramanam amalam prema pum-artho mahan

sri-caitanya-mahaprabhor matam idam tatradarah na parah

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, the son of Nanda Maharaja, is to be worshiped along with His transcendental abode, Vrndavana. The most pleasing form of worship for the Lord is that which was performed by the gopis of Vrndavana. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the spotless authority on everything, and pure love of God is the ultimate goal of life for all men. These statements, for which we have the highest regard, are the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.