Jiva-tattva Within Iskcon

[theist]

No doubt a natural and intriguing question. Like every child asks the parent "Where do babies come from". An awkward moment because the child is not ready to understand the answer not because there is no answer.

 

Aham Brahmasmi. First things first. When we are freed from the dominance of the time factor perhaps the answer will be obvious.

[dhaa]

Origin of the Jiva - Tatastha Shakti - Marginal Plane - Falldown from Spiritual World? - Krsna Talk 53

 

JIVAS and the MARGINAL PLANE

 

by

 

Swami B.G. Narasingha

 

 

According to the OOP book A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada sometimes says the jiva falls from association with Krsna and sometimes he says the jiva does not fall. This then becomes a paradox. A paradox is a statement, proposition or situation that seems to be absurd or contradictory, but in fact is or may be true. OOP therefore suggests that the jiva falls and doesn't fall simultaneously. But when A. C Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada himself states the conclusion, then the so-called 'paradox' created by some of his followers, vanishes.

 

According to the Bhaktivedanta purport on Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26:

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

 

This conclusion, which completely negates the so-called paradoxical view created in the OOP book, is also upheld by sastra and previous acaryas such as Jiva Gosvami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and all bona fide devotees in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. The conclusion is that the jivas, that are now conditioned by the modes of material nature and originate in the 'tatastha' or the marginal plane of existence, did not fall from the spiritual world.

 

Ignoring the conclusion of their spiritual master, the authors of the OOP book insist that the jiva falls from the spiritual world. Thus their opinions are taken simply as faulty interpolations

 

.......

 

OUR CONCLUSION

 

From sastra and the opinions of acaryas as quoted above it is quite clear that there is no possibility of fall down from the spiritual world, Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana. That Iskcon leaders continue to preach the apa-siddhanta (false conclusion) of the fall of the jiva from the spiritual world (as they have done in the OOP book) is indeed unfortunate and misleading.

 

In 1981 Iskcon leaders challenged the wisdom of Srila Sridhara Deva Gosvami when he tried to help them with a correct understanding of the marginal position of the jiva, but they returned his kindness with insult and offense. Having offended such a pure Vaisnava and calling him a 'mayavadi' for upholding the position of the jiva as marginal, Iskcon has now adopted the 'fall philosophy' that is tantamount to impersonalism (because such a 'fall philosophy' suggests the fallibility of the spiritual world) as their institutional doctrine. This is clearly an anartha (bhrama-tattva) that results from Vaisnava-aparadha.

 

In 1987 Iskcon leaders made an official apology to Srila Sridhara Maharaja for their offensive behavior towards him but then they continued to neglect his instructions and guidance in the matter of properly understanding Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy.

[Guest guest]

The Jiva fall or didn't fall argument is bascially an Iskcon versus the rest of the Gaudiya world.

 

Iskcon favour Jiva fall down...the others favour Jiva didn't fall.

 

Iskcon is NOT the sole authority on Gaudiya Siddanta regardless what their leaders may think....

 

 

[theist]

 

Iskcon favour Jiva fall down...the others favour Jiva didn't fall.

 

 

But yet here we are in a fallen condition. I have heard some vaisnavas believe first we were in the brahmajyoti and then have a flash point where we had a choice of servant or enjoyer. Those that choose servant rose up into the variegated regions of the internal energy while those of us that choose enjoyer fell downward in the material variety of the three gunas.

 

I have heard some say that we jivas had our beginning as a gopa-indra germ and have been steadly rising ever since through the various species.

 

In Jaiva Dharma I read that some jivas come from Krsna's aura and enter right into Goloka pastimes. Others from Sankarsana? or some Vishnu expansion (I can't remember what was written) and enter into Vaikuntha and still other emanate from Maha-Vishnu's aura and are given a choice to rise or fall.

 

I don't know myself.

[Guest guest]

Hare Krishna

 

this:

 

But yet here we are in a fallen condition. I have heard some vaisnavas believe first we were in the brahmajyoti and then have a flash point where we had a choice of servant or enjoyer. Those that choose servant rose up into the variegated regions of the internal energy while those of us that choose enjoyer fell downward in the material variety of the three gunas.

 

 

 

and this:

 

still other emanate from Maha-Vishnu's aura and are given a choice to rise or fall.

 

 

 

are saying the same thing. What Jaiva-Dharma says is that baddha-jivas come from brahmajyoti of Maha-Vishnu, while the first one is also saying that baddha-jivas come from brahma-jyoti (which is also what Srila Prabhupada says in ishopanishad, or Srila BhaktiSiddhanta in Sri Brahma-Samhita). What is the difference in the above two?

[theist]

hose are saying the same although in jaiva Dharma there is another class of jivas who go right to pastimes in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

I have trouble accepting this two classes of jiva's idea. What do you think?

[Guest guest]

if spirituality does not put us in trouble where's the need of it?

[theist]

I am in trouble alot. But you are right we need our ignorance consistently challenged.

[stonehearted]

We also need our intelligence consistently challenged. Spiritual life is dynamic and demands constant growth. Growth is change. The guru's job is not to make us comfortable in our present situation but to challenge us to keep growing, to, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in his poem, "Lead, lead me on to Vrindavan." Whatever understanding we have is likely to be challenged by new, deeper ideas.

[theist]

The different categories of jivas? I find that very strange. What am I missing?

[stonehearted]

Here's what Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in different places (this is all from Narasingha Maharaja's Krishna Talk article, which you can find at his Web site--gosai{dot}com/chaitanya):

 

"The jiva appeared by the marginal energy at the dividing line between spirit and matter. From that position, he began to gaze at the spiritual and material worlds. Those jivas who were attracted somewhat to realization of the Supreme Person became desirous of the spiritual realm because of that contact of knowledge. They then obtained strength from the hladini potency of the abundant cit sakti, which made them favorable to the Lord eternally, and they were brought into the spiritual world as associates of the Lord. Those who, by their own free will, became bewildered and became greedy for maya situated on the opposite side, being beckoned by maya, then became attracted to the material universe, and were thrown in the universe by Karanarnavasayi Visnu, the controller of maya. That was but the result of their eternal aversion to the Supreme Lord. The moment they entered the material realm, they became overcome by ignorance, the function of maya. Overcome by ignorance, they fell into the wheel of binding karma in order to become fully absorbed in their task." (Mahaprabhura-siksa ch.7)

 

"It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres." (Tattva Viveka 2.4,page 55)

 

"Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4)

 

"A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7)

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja writes,

"Generally, souls emanate from the brahma-jyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahma-jyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

 

"Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective, there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself." (Sri Krsna - Reality the Beautiful, ch-4, Origin of the Soul)

 

Ultimately, the maya shakti and jiva shakti have their origin in Sankarshan, don't they? And these subject matters are by their nature adhokshaja, beyond the ken of the mind and senses, anyway. Our only chance to realize this is utter surrender, which would be the goal of inderstanding as well. Otherwise, what's the point of all this agitation? It may be well to read Jaiva Dharma and Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita again, carefully, even making notes and writing down questions that arise.

[Kulapavana]

"A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7)

 

that would suggest that both maya and forgetfulness are part of the spiritual realm. this issue is unavoidable even if you say the living entities come from the BORDER region.

 

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura wrote a lot of pretty controversial stuff, especially in his younger years.

 

[vijay]

"A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world"

 

How do they forget something they never had?????

[stonehearted]

vijay:

How do they forget something they never had?????

 

 

The relationship is inherent in the nature of the jiva: jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa.

[krsna]

from gosai.com:

 

Illuminations on Jîva-tattva

 

8-Preaching and Siddhanta.

 

There is ample precedence for preaching something other than siddhanta given by our acaryas and Srila Prabhupada. Many examples of this are cited below. Indeed, regarding the origin of the jiva, many devotees of twenty and thirty years standing cannot properly understand this subject, which goes to show the intelligence of a preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

Irrefutable proof of a preaching strategy

 

In addition to the many examples below we would like to point out a very significant proof that Srila Prabhupada was preaching something other than siddhanta when he sometimes said that we did fall from the spiritual world. The question at hand in this presentation is whether or not a living entity already in the spiritual world (originating there) may fall down. It is well known that there exists numerous irrefutable sastric references that once a conditioned jiva becomes qualified by purifying himself and subsequently enters the spiritual world they do not fall back down into the material world. For example Bg. 15.6 states, yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama--"Once going there one never returns." We have however found numerous statements of Srila Prabhupada (many of which are even printed in the OOPs book) directly contradicting such clear sastric statements. How are we to reconcile these contradictions? If we rule out a preaching strategy we are admitting that Srila Prabhupada is making statements against sastra, implying he either doesn't know sastra or is introducing a new siddhanta. Both of these choices are very dangerous for a disciple to assume. The statements are:

 

Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and ... the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." (Conversation, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973)

 

Devotee: If we came from there, how did we fall if we were already there?

Prabhupada: ...because we are in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down...we are in the material condition of life. Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling down, again becoming diseased. Not that because you once become cured, there is no chance of becoming diseased again. There is chance. Therefore we shall be very much careful. (Bg. lecture, Los Angeles, December 19, 1968)

 

Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. (70-02-27)

 

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No. There is possibility, but he does not come. (Cc. lecture, San Francisco, Feb. 18, 1967)

 

Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns.

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb. 19, 1976)

 

Devotee: If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? ...

Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

 

A nice example of Srila Prabhupada's preaching strategy was shown in Durban in 1975:

 

Prabhupada: (chants mangalacarana prayers) Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this great movement. This movement is not started by me. This was started long, long years ago by Krsna Himself. Firstly, He spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god . . . We have come from the spiritual world in this material world. We have forgotten our father. So we have to revive this relationship with our father, or God, or Krsna. That is the main business of human life . . . We have come from God; we again go back to God if we simply understand Krsna, or God. This is the whole instruction of the Bhagavad-gita. (City Hall Lecture: 751007LE.DUR)

 

Srila Vyasadeva also did this himself:

 

The whole idea is to draw the attention of the mass of people to krsna-katha through their strong affininty for hearing mundane topics. (Bhag. 3.5.12, text)

 

Childish foolish people are attached to materialistic, fruitive activities. Therefore the Vedic injunctions indirectly lead one to the path of ultimate liberation by first prescribing fruitive religious activities, just as a father promises his child candy so that the child will take the medicine. (Bhag. 11.3.44, text)

 

In other words, the revealed truth may be hidden within the mundane concessions of ordinary religion to help the ignorant class of men--paroksavada vedo 'yam.

 

Lord Siva was ordered directly by Lord Krsna to preach imaginary philosophy as Sankaracarya and make people averse to the Lord. (Padma Purana, UK 17.107, text)

 

Sripada Sankaracarya has given his interpretation and imaginary meaning. It does not actually appeal to the mind of any sane man. He has done this to convince the atheists and bring them under his control. (Cc. Madhya-lila 25.42, text)

 

Srila Prabhupada also states:

 

Lord Buddha, an incarnation of Lord Krsna . . . preached in a duplicitous way, saying that there is no God. Nonetheless, he himself was an incarnation of God. (Bhag. 5.15.1, purp.)

 

In a 1971 conversation with Revatinandana, Srila Prabhupada said,

 

These questions are not to be discussed in public. They require a much higher understanding. For the public it should be, 'This is matter, this is spirit.' That's all.

 

This is an example of a preaching technique by Srila Prabhupada. A well known example of preaching something other than siddhanta is that of Jiva Goswami's advocation of svakiya-rasa over parakiya-rasa for the spiritual benefit of his disciples, while simultaneously always following Rupa Goswami internally. Srila Prabhupada writes,

 

He could understand that sahajiyas would otherwise exploit the parakiya-rasa, as they are actually doing at the present. [Cc. Adi-lila 10.85, purport]

 

Srila Jiva Goswami wrote his commentaries so as to pacify his contemporaries and also present the siddhanta indirectly. In the Locana Rocini Tika on Ujjvala Nilamani 1.18, he writes:

 

Some things I have written here by my own will, and some due to the will of others. The part which is coherent is by my will, and the rest is due to others.

 

Further examples are Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Krsna Samhita and the Bhagavata wherein he states that the lilas of Lord Krsna are not to be taken literally and further that the descriptions of the planetary systems in the fifth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam are allegorical. How are we to view these statements? Certainly, as stated by Sadaputa Dasa, he has a particular preaching purpose in mind.

 

Sadaputa Dasa:

 

After drinking in from their British teachers the ideas of William Jones and other Western orientalists, these young people were not at all inclined to give credence to old myths. How then could the teachings of Krsna on love of God be presented? Bhaktivinode Thakura judiciously chose to give a partial picture of the truth that would introduce important spiritual ideas without invoking rejection due to deep-seated prejudices . . . He chose to sidestep these mythological aspects of the Bhagavata in an effort to reach an audience of intellectuals whose mundane education ruled out such myths as absurd fantasy. Indeed he went even further. In 1880 he published a treatise entitles Sri Krsna Saµhita in which he elaborately explained the philosophy of Krsna consciousness. In this book he also put forth a reconstruction of Indian history similar to the one introduced by Sir William Jones to brind Hindu chronology into line with the Mosaic timetable of the Bible. This involved converting demigods and Manus into human kings and reducing their total span of history to a few thousand earthly years. (Rational Mythology by Sadaputa Dasa, Back to Godhead Magazine, Jan/Feb '94)

 

In order to sidestep the strong prejudices of readers trained by the British in Western thinking, Bhaktivinoda Thakura is presenting the Bhagavatam as allegorical, but we would suggest that this is not his final conclusion. (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy)

 

Srila Prabhupada has also stated:

 

Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Krsna, he never cheats. He never cheats. Whatever he does . . . Just like a mother says to his child, "My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo." The child is diseased. He will not be able to digest lugloo, but the mother sometimes cheats him. And when he takes the medicine the lugloo is not delivered. Similarly, sometimes we have to say so many things very pleasing to him, but our business is that let him take this medicine. That is tactics. But that is not cheating. If the mother helps the child in drinking medicine and then afterwards she does not supply the lugloo, that is not cheating. Some way or other... That is the instruction of Rupa Gosvami, yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet: "Somehow or other, let everyone be Krsna conscious." There is no question of vidhi-nisedha. Sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah. The other rules and regulation will act as servant, but the main business is to bring one to Krsna consciousness. That is the main business. We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating. (SP Room Conv. Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

 

Pusta Krsna: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity.

 

Prabhupada: Just like our . . . What is his name?

 

Hari-sauri: Tripurari? (laughter)

 

Prabhupada: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about the power shortage?Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said, "There is nothing about power." So suppose Tripurari has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any basic instruction about power shortage?" And he said, "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version . . . Another example is that Yudhisthira Maharaja. He was asked by Krsna that "You speak lie to Dronacarya that 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhisthira Maharaja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Krsna. For this moral activity he had to visit hell.

 

This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles . . . We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies . . . Because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Krsna literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Krsna literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. (760505rc.hon)

 

Here again, preaching doesn't always mean directly presenting the siddhanta. Additionally, Jiva Goswami states in his Tattva-sandarbha that he cites only those portions of the revered Sridhara Swami's commentary that follow the natural spirit of the Bhagavatam and its Vaisnava conclusions. This is because Sridhara Swami interspersed his Bhagavatam commentaries with monistic advaitin interpretations-not as conclusions, but as a tactic to attract the followers of Sankara from their dry cakes of impersonal philosophy to the Bhagavatam's nectarean descriptions of krsna-lila. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself greatly appreciated Sridhara Swami's Bhagavatam commentaries and became very much disturbed when Vallabacarya did not show proper respect to Sridhara Swami. Interestingly enough, we also find that Bhaktivinoda Thakura could not tolerate Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's respectful mention of Madhusudhan Saraswati, a Mayavadi couched in Vaisnavism.

 

Srila Prabhupada writes,

 

These are the secrets of the acaryas. Sometimes they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas, and explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control. (Cc. Madhya-lila 25.42, purp.)

 

When we are preaching to neophytes, non-devotees and the likes we should tailor our preaching such that we most easily capture their faith, as Srila Prabhupada did--yena tena prakarena. However, when elucidating the finer points of siddhanta to mature devotees or in discussions with scholars, who may be well acquainted with sastric conclusions, we must preach the siddhanta. The mature sincere devotees will settle for nothing less and the scholars will simply think we are foolish and don't understand our own philosophy.

 

To preach to the neophytes that we fell from the spiritual world makes it simple to explain everything nicely. It is easy for a preacher to state that we were with Krsna, become envious and must go back to Krsna. To try and explain to the predominately mayavada tinged populace (including ourselves also) that we came from the brahman but should go back to Krsna is much more difficult. It is also conveniently easy to blame the Lord for our suffering when we don't understand clearly why we are here. So with this preaching fall-strategy we have no such loose ends. And the explanation that Srila Prabhupada was preaching something other than siddhanta when he sometimes said that we fell from Krsna lila, preserves Prabhupada's agreement with the conclusions of all previous and present acaryas.

 

We have presented several statements of Bhaktivinode Thakura above stating explicitly the origin of the nitya-baddha and the nitya-mukta entities of the different spiritual regions. This explanation leaves little room for interpretation. Unfortunately the authors of Our Original Position have chosen to try and interpret many direct statements of our acaryas that one never falls. They try to manufacture evidence from marginal references which don't state at all what has been inferred by the authors. We may also point out that although the authors have carefully dissected many portions of the Leaves presentation they have also ignored some of the most important and irrefutable evidence. In their book they analyze word meanings and screw out from sections of the Jaiva Dharma of Bhaktivinode Thakura entirely different meanings than that published in English by the Gaudiya Matha and in the Leaves book. Although the authors of the GBC Position book, have in some instances, pointed out defects in logic or word usage in the Leaves book they have not shown that all living entities within the material world have fallen from the Lord's lila, nor have they accounted for the many well documented strong statements (purports and sastric texts) contradicting their proposals. Thus their presentation is very incomplete and insubstantial by scholarly standards. An acceptable presentation must undergo sastra sangati--proper reconciliation of apparent contradictions.

 

If the siddhanta is No Fall, as we have presented strong evidence in favor of herein, then the only contradiction is that Srila Prabhupada sometimes preached that we fell from the spiritual world. This (no-fall) siddhanta is that it is hard for neophytes to understand the actual philosophy--even many devotees of twenty and thirty years standing do not understand it--and it is more difficult to preach. If we assume that we were all originally with Krsna and due to envy and illusion fell from the spiritual world to a life of repeated birth and death, every last one of us, billions and trillions of living entities, then there are many philosophical contradictions which cannot be explained. In this case scenario there is no reason for Srila Prabhupada to state strongly so many times that we don't fall from the spiritual world, for there is no preaching strategy here (or are we now going to admit a preaching strategy?). Also, many of the statements supporting "no-fall" are direct sastric texts, not purports. The OOPs Position book does not explain these many contradictions, of sastra and commentaries of so many acaryas.

 

[Kulapavana]

"Srila Prabhupada has also stated:

 

"Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. ""

 

that approach has caused a LOT of problems in our movement. for many it was an explicit permission to lie and cheat "for Krsna"... and the benefits? very debatable...

[theist]

"Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. ""

 

It was like no one bothered to read the second sentence.

 

[Guest guest]

and where do we hear this particular quote verbatim ?

Krsnas service sublime -go according to their rules and regulations on cheating

as a former theif and crimminal we say nay to this!

[Kulapavana]

the tendency to lie and cheat is natural in people born in Kali-yuga, so the instructions of sadhana must emphasize truthfullness and honorable behavior. leaving some doors open, or providing excuses, for such activities needs to be minimized. the devotees in charge of others in our movement must exercise utmost care that such situations.

 

and regarding book distribution and honesty there are other SP quotes as well, that OBVIOUSLY contradict the previous quote:

 

"So, it is not very much advisable to tell lies just to sell a book. If we simply stick to describing how wonderful Krsna is, then whatever we may lie or exaggerate, that will not be a lie. But other things, lies, they will not help us to train ourselves in truthfulness. Lie to some, not to others, that is not a good philosophy. Rather the brahmanas are always truthful, even to their enemies. There is sufficient merit in our books that if you simply describe them sincerely to anyone, they will buy. That art you must develop, not the art of lying. Convince them to give by your preaching the Absolute Truth, not by tricking - that is more mature stage of the development of Krsna consciousness."

(p.229)

 

"If we simply speak nicely to a person and try sincerely to get him to take the book, he will take it. Why should we adopt unfair means? We should not do anything which will create a bad impression or make us unpopular. People are after these books. They are hankering for them."

 

"We don't need to use a cheating method. I never had to use any cheating method when I first began. I simply presented the real thing. Basically, and practically speaking, everything that is done sincerely for Krishna's satisfaction is perfect. But we have to be very, very careful in our dealings with others so that they will not take the wrong view. Just like the gopis. They left their homes in the dead of night to go and meet this young boy Krsna for kissing and embracing. To the ordinary person this is sinful but to the devotee it is worshipable and it is considered the highest form of devotion even by Lord Caitanya, who was Himself a very strict sannyasi. Therefore we are very careful not to discuss this rasa-lila in the presence of ordinary men because they will only misunderstand and commit offenses. While dealing with the ordinary men we must spread this movement in such a way that they will not misunderstand us and take offense. Try to sell as many of my books as possible to your best ability." (p.230)

 

 

"Regarding the controversy about book distribution techniques, you are right. Our occupation must be honest. Everyone should adore our members as honest. If we do something which is deteriorating to the popular sentiments of the public in favor of our movement, that is not good. Somehow or other we should not become unpopular in the public eye. These dishonest methods must be stopped. It is hampering our reputation all over the world. Money collecting for feeding people in India should be collected under the name ISKCON Food Relief. Not any other name. And every farthing of that money must be sent to India or better yet, buy food grains there and ship them here, and we will distribute. But every farthing collected for that purpose must be used for that purpose."

 

 

[krsna]

 

 

by Madhavananda das

 

 

 

Common people generally judge a great personality according to the qualities of his or her followers. They also usually think that the dearest follower of that personality must be the one that has received the most facilities, attention, and position from that great person. How then do we understand Lord Shiva and his distribution of mercy? Many powerful demons such as Ravan, Banasura, Vrikasura, and Sudakshina worshiped Shiva. By all appearances it seems that each of these demons were very dear to him and received his mercy. Shiva even went so far as to fight against Lord Krishna on behalf of his devotees Banasura and Sudakshina. Certainly those were signs of his mercy! Or were they?

 

MERCIFUL TO ALL

 

 

Lord Shiva is famous as asutosa, "he who is easily pleased". He is very easily pleased and he is very quick to give benedictions. Like Lord Shiva, his consort Maya-devi is also very free in distributing mercy to everyone, including even the demons and impersonalist mayavadis. In his footnote to Hari-nama-cintamani (7.61), Thakur Bhaktivinode comments on the nature of their mercy on such persons:

 

"In the material world the mayavadis worship Goddess Maya and chant her names like 'Durga' and 'Kali'. Lord Krishna's spiritual potency is His personal potency. Maya is the shadow of that spiritual potency. Gradually purifying them, Goddess Maya convinces the rebellious souls who have turned their faces away from Lord Krishna to turn and face Him again. Maya has two kinds of mercy: sakapata-krpa, mercy with cheating, and niskapata-krpa, mercy without cheating. When she gives sincere mercy, she gives to the conditioned soul true knowledge and devotional service offered to Lord Krishna. When she gives cheating mercy she gives to the soul temporary material pleasures. The limit of this cheating mercy is when she throws the soul into the state of merging with impersonal Brahman. When that happens to the soul, all is lost."

 

Lord Shiva has two types of mercy, niskapata-krpa, mercy without cheating, and sakapata-krpa, mercy with cheating. An intelligent person should understand the difference, and aspire for Lord Shiva's niskapata-krpa. Although it appears that Lord Shiva is being merciful to the demons when he grants them benedictions, in actuality they are not recipients of Lord Shiva's real mercy.

 

SERVICE NOT ACCEPTED

 

A good example is Ravan, the demoniac king of the raksasas. Ravan worshipped Lord Shiva, and it would seem that Shiva favored him since he granted Ravan so much wealth and power. However, Srila Vrindavan Das Thakur has given a penetrating look at Ravan's service to Lord Shiva and shown that actually Ravan did not please Shiva at all. In his Sri Caitanya-Bhagavata (madhya 10.148-149), Vrindavan Das states:

 

siracchedi bhakti yena kare dasanana na manaye raghunatha - sivera karana

 

"Ravan worshiped Shiva but would not worship Lord Ramachandra. For this offense Ravan's ten heads were cut off."

 

antare chadila siva, se na jane iha seva vyartha haila, maila savamse pudiya

 

"In his heart, Lord Shiva rejected Ravan and did not accept his service. Ravan did not know this. Ravan's service to Lord Shiva was all in vain. In this way he and his family were all destroyed."

 

SIVA-TATTVA IS GURU-TATTVA

 

Aside from being worshiped by the demons, Lord Shiva is also the guru of many great krsna-bhaktas. The fourth canto, twenty-fourth chapter of Srimad Bhagavatam describes how Shiva bestowed his mercy upon the Prachetas, by which they became great devotees of Lord Krishna. The twelfth canto, tenth chapter describes how Markandeya Rishi worshipped Shiva to get devotion to Krishna. In the Brahma-vaivarta Purana (4.13.72) Garga Muni describes himself as a disciple of Lord Shiva. He says that Lord Shiva taught him the glories of Krishna's name. The Narada-pancaratra, first ratra, chapters eight and nine, describes that Shiva acted as guru for the great devotee Narada Muni.

 

In his purport to Srimad Bhagavatam (4.2.2), His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada describes Shiva as being guru for both the demons and the devotees:

 

"Lord Shiva is described here as caracara-guru, the spiritual master of all animate and inanimate objects. He is sometimes known as bhuta-natha, which means "the worshipable deity of the dull-headed." Bhuta is also sometimes taken to indicate the ghosts. Lord Shiva takes charge of reforming persons who are ghosts and demons, not to speak of others who are godly; therefore he is the spiritual master of everyone, the dull and demoniac, as well as the highly learned vaisnavas. It is also stated, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh - Shambhu, Lord Shiva, is the greatest of all vaisnavas. On one hand he is the worshipable object of the dull demons, and on the other he is the best of all vaisnavas, and he has a sampradaya called the Rudra-sampradaya."

 

In His Sivastakam prayers (text 7), quoted by Murari Gupta in his Sri Caitanya Carita Mahakavya, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu describes Lord Shiva's position as guru, sivaya sarva-gurave namo namah - "I repeatedly offer my obeisances to Lord Shiva, who is the guru of everyone." Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami has also commented on this point:

 

"This siva-tattva and guru-tattva are the same. Guru and Bhagavan, Shiva and Bhagavan, have a very intimate relationship, priya-sakhya, a relationship of lover and beloved, premi-premastata. In that sense there is no difference between Shiva and Krishna, guru and Krishna."

 

In many places it is described that the guru is considered to be a manifestation of Lord Shiva. Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa (4.139) says:

 

gurur brahma gurur visnur guru devo mahesvarah gurur eva param-brahma tasmat sampujayet sada

 

"The guru is Lord Brahma. The guru is Lord Vishnu. The guru is Lord Shiva. The guru is the Supreme Absolute Truth, therefore always worship Sri Guru with all you possess."

 

Narada Purana (63.121) says:

 

diksaya guru-murti-sthah sarvanugrahakah sivah

 

"Through diksa, Shiva, the giver of all benedictions, is manifested in the form of the guru."

 

The same point is made again in Narada Purana (65.58):

 

om namas te natha bhagavan sivaya guru-rupine

 

"I offer my respectful obeisances unto Lord Shiva, who has assumed the form of guru."

 

SUBSTANCE AND APPEARANCE

 

Siva-tattva and guru-tattva are also the same in the sense that both Shiva and guru are krsna-krpa-sri-murti - manifestations of Krishna's mercy. In Bhagavad-gita (4.11) Krishna has described, ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham - "As a person surrenders to Me, I reciprocate with him accordingly." Similarly, as manifestations of Krishna's mercy Shiva and Sri Guru also reciprocate according to the motive of the worshiper. Although they are merciful to all, it's not that everyone who approaches them gets the same thing. To sincere persons they give niskapata-krpa, mercy without cheating, and to duplicitous materialistic persons they give sakapata-krpa, mercy with cheating.

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (Bhag. 1.13.37 purport) describes the topic of cheating:

 

"That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause."

 

On another occasion (lecture, 21 May 1969) Srila Prabhupada made a similar comment:

 

"[buddha] situated the atheistic people on the line of understanding God. So this is, in one way, cheating. But this cheating is not cheating. Just like a father or guardian sometimes cheats the young boy. That is not cheating; that is for his good."

 

The Lord's Mohini Murti pastime as described in the eighth canto, chapter nine of Srimad Bhagavatam is a good example of niskapata-krpa and sakapata-krpa. When Mohini Murti began to distribute nectar, it didn't seem that She was paying any attention to the demigods. She was seen to be smiling and casting glances only on the demons. However, while it appeared that She was favoring the demons, in actuality She was cheating them and giving all of the nectar to the demigods. In the same way, because of the attention and approval showered on them by Shivaji and Sri Guru, sometimes persons with selfish motives appear to have obtained great favor, but in actuality they are being cheated while genuine mercy is quietly being given to others.

 

Bahirmukha-janas, "outward-facing" persons such as the demon Ravan, absorbed in external things, are full of passion and equate receiving material opulence, position, and recognition from Shiva or guru to be mercy. However, antarmukha-janas, introspective persons such as Markandeya Rishi, recognize that the real mercy of Shiva and guru is gained when they become truly pleased. They understand that the niskapata-krpa of Shiva and guru is not manifest in external things such as receiving opulence, high position, or public shows of approval from guru and Shiva. Rather, it is in obtaining krsna-prema. Materialistic followers who approach great personalities such as Durga, Shiva and Sri Guru and with their lips cry out, krpa koro, krpa koro - "Please give me your mercy! Please give me your mercy!" while internally desiring something material, are given what they want, but are deprived of real mercy. They are the recipients of sakapata-krpa, not niskapata-krpa.

 

Like Lord Shiva, Sri Guru externally accepts everyone's service, and, like Lord Shiva, it is not always easy to know if he is actually pleased or not. Thakur Vrindavan Das has described (Cb. madhya 10.150):

 

bhala manda siva kichu bhangiya na kaya yara buddhi thake, sei cinte buddhi laya

 

"Lord Shiva does not reveal whether he is pleased or displeased with his servant. A person who is intelligent can understand in his heart whether Lord Shiva is pleased or displeased."

 

PURE DEVOTEE'S KICK

 

In his commentary on Caitanya-bhagavata (adi 17.154-158) Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Prabhupada says that even the mere desire for niskapata-krpa is rarely found in conditioned souls. He says that the only hope for most is to get the merciful kick of a pure devotee:

 

"The community of arrogant persons will take millions and millions of births to understand Vrindavan Das Thakur's causeless mercy, so until their offenses are exhausted they will never have the opportunity to receive a kick on the head from the sanctified all-auspicious feet of a pure vaisnava. Even the genuine desire for receiving the niskapata-daya, non-duplicitous mercy of a pure vaisnava, is a rare commodity for ignorant mundane sinful people, pious fruitive workers, or mental speculators. Living entities who are averse to Hari, Guru, and vaisnava have not accumulated sufficient piety in their previous lifetimes, nor have thousands of their forefathers accumulated sufficient piety, that they are qualified to receive the all-auspicious kick from the lotus feet of the pure, transcendental, ultimate-benefit-awarding lotus feet of Thakur Vrindavan. The moment that dust from the lotus feet of a pure vaisnava will fall on the heads of sinful persons, that very moment they will become free from all material contamination and deceit and thus become proprietors of the wealth of devotional service."

 

 

[krsna]

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (Bhag. 1.13.37 purport) describes the topic of cheating:

 

"That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause."

 

On another occasion (lecture, 21 May 1969) Srila Prabhupada made a similar comment:

 

"[buddha] situated the atheistic people on the line of understanding God. So this is, in one way, cheating. But this cheating is not cheating. Just like a father or guardian sometimes cheats the young boy. That is not cheating; that is for his good."

[krsna]

 

 

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[theist]

Surely we are not so deranged that we think of ourselves on this kind of level.

 

Then again....

[Guest guest]

Kulapavana thanks your clear understanding, as we can clearly see Srila Prabhupada encourages TRUTH HONOUR as well SINCERETY in all dealings.

as a former crimminal Jagai Madhai type these are the most important characteristics that Srila Prabhupada expresses to me personally....that we never cheat, lie,or kill anything ever again.

This is the mercy of the Vaisnava, they can take a barbaric man and give them Krsna consciousness, helping them develope good qualities giving up the sinful ones.

[Kulapavana]

that is the problem with our culture: all we need is a slightest excuse to engage in sinful activities. a true Arya has to be FORCED by a sublime philosophy to act in a moraly questionable way...