The Intelligent Designer

[Guest guest]

Evolution Revolution: Two Species Become One, Study Says

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0727_050727_evolution.html

and

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7741

 

 

Observed Instances of Speciation (evolution of new species)

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

 

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Looks like even that was too much credit in favor of Darwin. I can accept a certain amount of adaptation but that is about it.

 

Such a strange myth have they forced on the people for the last couple hundred years or whatever. And they insist ID is the myth.

[Guest guest]

all glories to srila prabhupada

 

 

dictionary.com

 

sci·ence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sns)

n.

 

1.The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

 

2.Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.

 

so the word science is the study of natural phenomena and theoretical explanation of it. Science does not try to prove there is no god but the general public take it that way because most people are athiests or a mix and use it as an alternative explanation to creation but it is a misunderstanding. In my opinion Srila Prabhupada was mostly annoyed with scientists because they would try to imitate Krishna by saying they can create life with chemicals, but the evolution theory does not prove there is no god but people take it way. Science is limited to only what you can percieve and we as devotee's deal with the anti-material which cannot be percieved with blunt senses so there will always be a gap with our understanding. Scientist's may become frustrated in there attempts to decypher the meaning of life through a microscope and then come to Krishna for answers, but it's difficult to beat them in there field of study through reason because everything is based on theory.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

According to a mantra in Taittiréya Upaniñad (yato vä imäni bhütäni jäyante) this cosmic manifestation is but an emanation from the Supreme Absolute Truth, and it rests in the Supreme Absolute Truth. The Absolute Truth has been called the ablative, causative and locative performer. Thus as a performer, He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for these are symptoms of personality. As the ablative performer of this cosmic manifestation, all thinking, feeling and willing come from Him. Without thinking, feeling and willing, there is no possibility of arrangement and design in the cosmic manifestation. Then again, He is causative, for He is the original designer of the cosmos. And He is locative: that is, everything is resting in His energy. These attributes are all clearly attributes of personality.

[Guest guest]

"The grossly materialistic demons are so completely bereft of spiritual knowledge that although at every moment they perceive the transience of the material body, all their activities center on the body. They are unable to understand that the soul within the body is the permanent and essential substance and that the body is mutable and temporary. Becoming first enamoured of then deluded by vivartavada (the theory of evolution), they conclude that the entire cosmic body also lacks a Soul. Since the fallacious theory they apply to their own physical existence leads them to reject any research into the existence of a soul residing within the body, they fail to perceive the presence of the Supersoul within the gigantic body of the cosmic manifestation. They falsely conclude that the body is everything, that there is nothing beyond it; similarly, they think that the material creation, which is the universal body, is factually governed only by the laws of nature. Any discussion on this subject is invariably put to premature death by their insistence that nature is the be—all and end—all. The more intelligent among them carry this discussion a little further and postulate that impersonalism is the quintessence of everything. But far beyond this realm of manifest and unmanifest material nature is the transcendental and eternal state. The atheists, however, are characteristically unable to believe in its existence.

In this way, with their perverted minds bereft of far-sightedness, demoniac men perform activities that bring only misery to the people. And as a result of many such unwanted activities, the atom bomb was discovered. The endless plans these demoniac men chalk out can never bode well for humanity. In the past, Ravana attempted to build a stairway to heaven, claiming this was for humanity's benefit. Actually, he was trying to cheat the Supreme Lord, Ramacandra. But he was unsuccessful. History repeats itself, for now we find that Ravana's descendants are attempting to cheat the Lord in the name of planning to benefit society. "

 

They are teaching that there is no God and that we should look to the stairway they are building that will take us to a disease free and deathless state. The stairway to nowhere.

 

No thanks.

 

Y/B

[Guest guest]

TRANSLATION SB 3.9.30

 

O Brahmā, situate yourself in penance and meditation and follow the principles of knowledge to receive My favor. By these actions you will be able to understand everything from within your heart.

 

PURPORT

 

The mercy the Lord bestows upon a particular person engaged in executing the responsible work entrusted unto him is beyond imagination. But His mercy is received due to our penance and perseverance in executing devotional service. Brahmā was entrusted with the work of creating the planetary systems. The Lord instructed him that when he meditated he would very easily know where and how the planetary systems must be arranged. The directions were to come from within, and there was no necessity for anxiety in that task. Such instructions of buddhi-yoga are directly imparted by the Lord from within, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (10.10).

 

---------------------

 

It is very strange to hear devotees speak against an Intelligence behind the cosmos, very very strange.

 

YB

 

 

[Guest guest]

Vedantists are of course far ahead of the ID folks and eons ahead of evolutionists. We can see that the progression of life forms in the fossil record is simply the evolution of the soul from one species to another. Supply and demand. Actually, demand and supply, order fulfillment. Soul XYZ now requires a monkey body; and the big supply and demand computer system that dresses souls with material forms dictates in advance the demand for a monkey body at the exact instant it is needed by the reincarnating soul.

 

Since this whole thing, unbeknownst to science, is about the soul which is transcendental, we must therefore conclude that the control of such a system must also be transcendental. That's a bit of a logical mouthful, but I think it can be shown to be quite valid if given a little quality reflection.

 

Savage Mute

 

"Darwin evolved into a monkey, just to please My devotees" -- Your Krsna

 

[Guest guest]

 

and the big supply and demand computer system that dresses souls with material forms dictates in advance the demand for a monkey body at the exact instant it is needed by the reincarnating soul.

 

 

Yes demand then supply. The demand (desire)is already there and carried over even from the last devastation and Brahma is taught how to supply forms to meet those demands and the same process just continues.

 

What is supplied of course influences the nature of future demands and there cause and effect start to blend and clear lines can not be drawn by us.

 

Without understanding transmigration of the soul no real understanding of this world can ever be had. Material scientists are engaged in studying only the interactions of the grossest parts of this chain of events.

 

It is important to note that what is at work is more than just a computerize demand and supply system. Some people try to speak of an intelligence separate from a spiritual living being, like a brain operating the body without the presence of a self or living force.

 

They then project this same miscalculation onto the cosmos as a whole. In this way they deny the self and Superself and position themselves as enemies of God consciousness.

 

This is what the whole Intelligent design controversy is really about.

 

YB

 

[Guest guest]

 

Modern Science

by Dr. Q. Ball

 

Clearly action in the field of the green felt plane is always initiated by the lone white ball on the plane. The colored balls move only when impacted by the white ball.

 

These random sudden movements of the white ball are caused by the random quantum flux in the field. The white color of this ball makes it more suspectible to the chance behaviour of the quantum sub-particles in the field. Therefore the white ball is the only ball that exhibits independent initiation of motion in the field.

[Guest guest]

 

Therefore the white ball is the only ball that exhibits independent initiation of motion in the field.

 

 

 

The white ball known as the cue ball never moves independently. Not until the Prime Mover strikes it with the cue stick. The angle of the cue stick strike on the cue ball and the force with which it is struck determines how the white cue ball will strike the other racked colored balls and that determines all the rest of the movements of the balls as far as angle that they move in, the distance they travel, the speed they travel and what and how they collide with the other balls.

 

Now I as a kid and a wannabe hustler learned how I could pocket the ball right behind and to the left of the lead ball in the rack into the left side middle pocket everytime if I hit it correctly. No other ball would ever hit it before it went in. Never.

 

What looks like chaos of balls flying this way to the untrained eye is seen as known natural laws of motion in action by a trained pool player.

 

Even without understanding the particulars of such laws one can observe their existence by repeated experimentation. Every pool player knows conclusively that no game of pool is possible without the player. it is so obvious that it never becomes a point of doubt requiring thought.

 

Now if there was a Big Bang I just see that as the Supreme Pool Player breaking the cosmic rack. The balls are planets and stars all set in their respective motions under the intelligent striking with forethought of the Lord.

 

This is the difference between Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. I can sink one ball most of the time but Vishnu knows the movements of every atom in the universe from the moment of the beginning (Bang or?) through the universal devastation.

 

That is just a spark of His infinite glories.

 

YB

[Guest guest]

 

You would try to refute my theory of the Green Felt Plane? Ha!

 

These agents of intelligence and action you propose are clearly not part of the green plane, and therefore cannot be considered in the field of green felt science. If we can produce a viable hypothesis within the green plane field itself, then there is no need to postulate about outside influences like these 'players' you speculate about.

 

The science of the green felt plane is a great study. It is suffice in itself to explain all phenomena in the observable green field.

 

Prof. Q. Ball

 

[Guest guest]

When you can explain what causes the cue ball to suddenly overcome the inertia and start rolling towards the rack then you will have something worth listening to, but not until then.

[Guest guest]

Intelligent Design

 

BY STOKA KRSNA DAS

 

EDITORIAL, Nov 26 (VNN) — This is a reply I sent to the Sydney Morning Herald in response to an article about Intelligent Design, a controversial topic in Education systems both here in Australia as well as the US. The article was by Neil Ormerod, who is a professor at the Catholic University of Australia and published Nov 15th.

 

 

I just read Neil Omerod's article How design supporters insult God's intelligence. I'd like to offer a radically different philosophical and cultural perspective on this debate. Having studied the Vedic scriptures such as Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam extensively from a bona fide spiritual master, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, I believe the western tradition relies too heavily on mental speculation to delve into matters which by definition lie beyond the purview of mundane logic.

 

Especially intriguing was the argument about the fundamental nature of chance - that God must be intelligent enough to use statistical causation as a means of producing deterministic outcomes. This logic is the logic of God as the supreme clockmaker - he has created the universe, and then left it more or less to its own devices. In contrast to such an idea of a detached creator, the Vedic description, given by Sri Krishna Himself in Bhagavad-Gita, is that not only is He the supreme energetic source of all manifestation, but that he intimately controls the minutiae of His creation. In the Vedas this is called simultaneous oneness and difference. In essence, God is one with his creation, at the same time He retains His individual identity as the Supreme Being.

 

The material creation is described in Bhagavad-Gita as being composed of two types of God's energy. Firstly, the material elements of earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego are considered the separated energy of God. Secondly, the living entities are described as God's apara prakrti, or superior, internal spiritual energy, which are qualitatively the same as the Lord, despite struggling with the inferior material nature. In any case, all these energies emanate from the supreme and are under his complete control, Lord Krishna clearly states, This material nature is working under my direction. (Gita 9.10)

 

Mental speculation, intellectual and logical research and so on may be useful tools to understand innumerable material topics, however they are useless in the comprehension of the absolute truth and the real nature of His creation and energies. Lord Krishna empowers His authorized representatives and disseminates the transcendental truth in bona fide revealed scripture which can only be understood by submissive reception of their enlightened message.

 

Endless argument and disputation between philosophers over the point of the existence or non existence of so called intelligent design is missing the real point - being that the absolute exists in complete independence of any puny mundane belief system or speculative intellectual process, and that the only real method of comprehension is to surrender to the Lord with faith and love, in a spirit of service. Lord Krishna describes in the Gita that an individual who adopts this approach will be enlightened by the Lord Himself - To those who are constantly devoted and worship me with love I give the understanding by which they can come to me. (Gita 10.10)

 

Evolutionary theory, various watered down creation arguments and other convoluted ideas such as Mr. Ormerod's, are all more or less expedient means of minimizing the incomprehensible power of the Lord. Make no mistake, according to the Vedas, He controls everything right down to the tiniest movements of the tiniest objects. Not a single thing happens by chance. To acknowledge chance, the idea that God was somehow separated from his creation and therefore leaving events and outcomes to some type of statistical probability would have to be accepted. According to the Vedas, this is a misconception, as much as it is a misconception to reject reincarnation or the understanding that the soul in all living creatures is of the same type and nature.

 

Furthermore, mainstream theologians tend to be ephemeral at best on the question of the form and pastimes of God. The tendency to this type of formlessness or impersonalism is the antithesis of the Vedic paradigm, where the form, nature and pastimes of the Supreme Lord are clearly and extensively delineated. Instead of the form of God being described as a divine mystery of faith- (in other words, we don't know), you can walk into any Hare Krishna temple and immediately become acquainted with the form of the Lord.

 

When we say God, the term is actually a job description. The Vedas tell us that God has a name, form, qualities, pastimes and associates. He has everything we have, but to an infinitely greater and more sublime degree. After all, if everything we perceive in the mundane sphere is an emanation from the absolute truth, then clearly everything must also be possessed by the absolute truth. We have a form, pastimes and associates, yet we have the arrogance and audacity to deny the same of Krishna.

 

Finally, whether one accepts the Darwinian theory of evolution or not, common sense dictates that a Supreme intelligence is at work in the creation. An unlimited number of brilliant scientists, working without time restrictions with an unlimited budget, cannot create a single mosquito. To argue that the simplest of the Lord's creatures came about via random events or chance and that no superior intervention and design was involved is simply the nonsense of fools and rascals.

 

Stoka Krishna Das

Stephen Weir

International Society for Krishna Consciousness, Murwillumbah NSW

0402 459199

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

Dec 23, USA (POST) — In the wake of this week's Dover decision against intelligent design, supporters of the concept are re-affirming their widespread support for ID. A recent webpoll was conducted to gauge the level of support that Americans possess regarding a radical change of current federal and state policy toward the teaching of intelligent design in public schools.

 

 

"When asked whether alternative theories of the beginning of life should be taught in public school 61.6% said yes. An additional 68.4% said that all types of philosophy, including religious philosophy, should be taught in public schools as an “elective class.”

 

 

Most Americans consider that the concept of intelligent design does involve scientific facts. Six out of ten Americans feel that there are aspects of intelligent design that are based on scientific fact. Many Americans are also aware that the subject of evolution is based on a theory. When asked about how they would best describe the field of evolution as developed by Charles Darwin, 45.3% said that it is a theory that is based on some scientific facts. 34.4% feel that Darwin’s theory has some significant contradictions within it that don’t make sense."

 

 

While numerous organizations like the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) have made strong public stands against intelligent design, many others are standing in support. Doctoral scientists, researchers and theorists at many universities, colleges, and research institutes around the world support ID. Among these are prominent biochemist Michael Behe at Lehigh University, microbiologist Scott Minnich at the University of Idaho, biologist Paul Chien at the University of San Francisco, emeritus biologist Dean Kenyon at San Francisco State University, mathematician William Dembski at Baylor University, and quantum chemist Henry Schaefer at the University of Georgia.

 

 

Research papers and academic articles supporting intelligent design continue to be published in peer-reviewed publications. The Design Inference (Cambridge University Press) by William Dembski and Darwin's Black Box (The Free Press) by Michael Behe are two well-known examples from the early phase of the public ID debate. These were followed by many more peer-reviewed books about design theory. Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design is a peer-reviewed journal that focuses entirely on design theory. With an editorial advisory board of more than 50 scholars from relevant scientific disciplines, the journal has been an important source of information on intelligent design research.

 

 

An explanation of intelligent design by Biochemist Michael Behe is reminiscent of Srila Prabhupada's comments on the subject. Behe said:

 

 

"A man from a primitive culture who sees an automobile might guess that it was powered by the wind or by an antelope hidden under the car, but when he opens up the hood and sees the engine he immediately realizes that it was designed. In the same way biochemistry has opened up the cell to examine what makes it run and we see that it, too, was designed."

 

 

Srila Prabhupada said: "Therefore, as soon as we speak of nature, the next inquiry should be, "Whose nature?" Nature means energy. And as soon as we speak of energy, we must inquire into the source of that energy. For example, if you speak of electric energy, you must accept its source, the powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity does not come to us automatically. Similarly, nature is not working automatically; it is under the control of Krsna."

 

 

In a recent National Geographic article on evolution theory, author David Quammen quoted Srila Prabhupada on the subject:

 

 

"The late Srila Prabhupada, of the Hare Krishna movement, explained that God created "the 8,400,000 species of life from the very beginning," in order to establish multiple tiers of reincarnation for rising souls. Although souls ascend, the species themselves don't change, he insisted, dismissing "Darwin's nonsensical theory."

 

 

Quammen went on to discuss the interesting poll results on American opinions about evolution and intelligent design, which have been carried out over a number of years. He wrote:

 

 

"Other people too, not just scriptural literalists, remain unpersuaded about evolution. According to a Gallup poll drawn from more than a thousand telephone interviews conducted in February 2001, no less than 45 percent of responding U.S. adults agreed that "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so." Evolution, by their lights, played no role in shaping us.

 

 

Only 37 percent of the polled Americans were satisfied with allowing room for both God and Darwin-that is, divine initiative to get things started, evolution as the creative means. (This view, according to more than one papal pronouncement, is compatible with Roman Catholic dogma.) Still fewer Americans, only 12 percent, believed that humans evolved from other life-forms without any involvement of a god.

 

 

The most startling thing about these poll numbers is not that so many Americans reject evolution, but that the statistical breakdown hasn't changed much in two decades. Gallup interviewers posed exactly the same choices in 1982, 1993, 1997, and 1999. The creationist conviction-that God alone, and not evolution, produced humans-has never drawn less than 44 percent. In other words, nearly half the American populace prefers to believe that Charles Darwin was wrong where it mattered most."

 

 

While the recent Dover decision was a disappointment, it was not a surprise to many intelligent design supporters. This was just an early skirmish in a battle that's only beginning to get underway. As the above poll results indicate, intelligent design is a concept that will not go quietly into the night simply because a judge or school board votes against it.

 

 

Intelligent Design is rapidly becoming an international issue that is crossing the boundaries of science, religion and metaphysics. University students and researchers are increasingly focused on the discussion, and we can expect a wealth of 'new thinking' to emerge on the subject. As students of the science of Krsna Consciousness, we anticipate that such increased academic attention on the topic will eventually bring it back around to 'old thinking' -- and particularly, to the ageless Vedic understanding of intelligent design and the Supreme Designer behind it.

 

[theist]

I wonder what the Srimad Bhagavatam's version would look like and where it would fit in this picture is if was condensed to a few short paragraphs? hmmmmmm....

Still it seems to me that Intelligent Design is the best bridge from atheism to theism. It doesn't rely on any one text and can be accepted by all forms of Creationists and doesn't demand that the atheist accept any religious text or theory beyond the fact of ID it's self. The implications are clear enough. If left at this simple point it is much easier to communicate in a public forum like schools etc. without bringing in Adam & Eve or even Lord Brahma and the lotus flower.

 

 

Forms of Creationism

BY: BBC RELIGION & ETHICS

 

 

Apr 4, LONDON (SUN) — Creationism teaches that life on Earth is the result of God's creative action, and not the result of blind scientific processes. Creationism doesn't attempt to explain how God did this:

 

"We do not know how God created, what processes He used, for God used processes which are not now operating anywhere in the natural universe . This is why we refer to divine creation as Special Creation. We cannot discover by scientific investigation anything about the creative processes used by God."

Gish, Evolution? The Fossils Say No!, 1979

 

It comes in a variety of forms, and the most common are listed below. But there are other forms of Creationism which include different combinations of the ideas mentioned:

Young Earth Creationism

 

 

Young Earth Creationism teaches that:

* The Book of Genesis is literally true

* the Earth and all forms of life were created by God in 6 days, around 10,000 years ago.

Scientists are almost unanimous in saying that as the Earth is 4 billion years old, and that the Young Earth theory is false.

Old Earth Creationism

 

 

Old Earth Creationism teaches that:

* The Earth is as old as scientists say (around 4 billion years)

* the universe, Earth, and life were created by processes in which God played an active part

* there have been countless divine acts of creation throughout history

* God acts both by direct creation and by guiding the processes he created

* Humanity was directly created by God

* The difference between this theory and Theistic Evolution is that in Theistic Evolution God doesn't play an active part after the original creation of the universe and the forces that operate in it.Gap Creationism

 

 

Gap Creationism adds a new idea:

* There were two creations - one before Adam, and a second one, which included Adam and Eve, after a lengthy time gap

* This theory reconciles the age of the Earth with the story in Genesis

Most scientists say that the geological evidence shows that this theory is false.

Day-Age Creationism

 

 

Day-Age Creationism adds an element that reconciles the long period of time shown by the fossil record with the story in Genesis.

* Each 'day' in the Biblical '6 days' of creation wasn't really a day, but a period of millions of years

* The theory is supported by Biblical references that show that one of 'God's days' is a lot longer than 24 hours

"For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by..." Psalm 90:4 "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." 2 Peter 3:8

Progressive Creationism

 

 

Progressive Creationism accepts the scientific timetable of creation, and gives evolution a small part to play in the story of life.

* God created the various 'kinds' (some people would say 'species' but other categories have been suggested) of plant and animal one after another - according to the timetable shown by the fossil record

* The scientific timetable of creation reflects the timetable that God used to create life on earth

* God created each kind of organism as we find it

* different forms of organism are separate creations, not the result of evolution from an earlier form

* some created organisms do become extinct

* Micro-evolution can take place within a kind of organism to produce subtle variations

o Lions, tigers and cats within the cat family

o Different sizes of beak within the Galapagos finchesIslamic Creationism

 

Creationism is not just a Christian issue. Muslim Creationists base their thinking on similar scientific arguments and on passages such as this in the Qur'an:

"And God has created every animal from water. Of them there are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs and some that walk on four. God creates what he wills for verily God has power over all things."

 

[theist]

TRANSLATION SB 8.3.30

Sri Sukadeva Gosvami continued: When the King of the elephants was describing the supreme authority, without mentioning any particular person, he did not invoke the demigods, headed by Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, Indra and Candra. Thus none of them approached him. However, because Lord Hari is the Supersoul, Purushottama, the Personality of Godhead, He appeared before Gajendra.

PURPORT

From the description of Gajendra, he apparently was aiming at the supreme authority although he did not know who the supreme authority is. He conjectured, "There is a supreme authority who is above everything. ..."

[theist]

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'I've Found God' Says Man Who Cracked Genome

 

BY: STEVEN SWINFORD

 

<CENTER>

</CENTER>

 

 

 

June 12, USA (SUNDAY TIMES) —

The scientist who led the team that cracked the human genome is to publish a book explaining why he now believes in the existence of God and is convinced that miracles are real. Francis Collins, the director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute, claims there is a rational basis for a creator and that scientific discoveries bring man "closer to God".

 

 

His book, The Language of God, to be published in September, will reopen the age-old debate about the relationship between science and faith. "One of the great tragedies of our time is this impression that has been created that science and religion have to be at war," said Collins, 56.

 

 

"I don't see that as necessary at all and I think it is deeply disappointing that the shrill voices that occupy the extremes of this spectrum have dominated the stage for the past 20 years."

 

 

For Collins, unravelling the human genome did not create a conflict in his mind. Instead, it allowed him to "glimpse at the workings of God".

 

 

"When you make a breakthrough it is a moment of scientific exhilaration because you have been on this search and seem to have found it," he said. "But it is also a moment where I at least feel closeness to the creator in the sense of having now perceived something that no human knew before but God knew all along.

 

 

"When you have for the first time in front of you this 3.1 billion-letter instruction book that conveys all kinds of information and all kinds of mystery about humankind, you can't survey that going through page after page without a sense of awe. I can't help but look at those pages and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind."

 

 

Collins joins a line of scientists whose research deepened their belief in God. Isaac Newton, whose discovery of the laws of gravity reshaped our understanding of the universe, said: "This most beautiful system could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful being."

 

 

Although Einstein revolutionised our thinking about time, gravity and the conversion of matter to energy, he believed the universe had a creator. "I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details," he said. However Galileo was famously questioned by the inquisition and put on trial in 1633 for the "heresy" of claiming that the earth moved around the sun.

 

 

Among Collins's most controversial beliefs is that of "theistic evolution", which claims natural selection is the tool that God chose to create man. In his version of the theory, he argues that man will not evolve further.

 

 

"I see God's hand at work through the mechanism of evolution. If God chose to create human beings in his image and decided that the mechanism of evolution was an elegant way to accomplish that goal, who are we to say that is not the way," he says.

 

 

"Scientifically, the forces of evolution by natural selection have been profoundly affected for humankind by the changes in culture and environment and the expansion of the human species to 6 billion members. So what you see is pretty much what you get."

 

 

Collins was an atheist until the age of 27, when as a young doctor he was impressed by the strength that faith gave to some of his most critical patients.

 

 

"They had terrible diseases from which they were probably not going to escape, and yet instead of railing at God they seemed to lean on their faith as a source of great comfort and reassurance," he said. "That was interesting, puzzling and unsettling."

 

 

He decided to visit a Methodist minister and was given a copy of C S Lewis's Mere Christianity, which argues that God is a rational possibility. The book transformed his life. "It was an argument I was not prepared to hear," he said. "I was very happy with the idea that God didn't exist, and had no interest in me. And yet at the same time, I could not turn away."

 

 

His epiphany came when he went hiking through the Cascade Mountains in Washington state. He said: "It was a beautiful afternoon and suddenly the remarkable beauty of creation around me was so overwhelming, I felt, 'I cannot resist this another moment'."

 

Collins believes that science cannot be used to refute the existence of God because it is confined to the "natural" world. In this light he believes miracles are a real possibility. "If one is willing to accept the existence of God or some supernatural force outside nature then it is not a logical problem to admit that, occasionally, a supernatural force might stage an invasion," he says.

 

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[madhavachari]

http://www.illustramedia.com/umolinfo.htm

 

I recommend it. "Unlocking the mystery of life".

[theist]

Thanks for the link. Looks good. I'm going for the DVD.

[JLdd]

When I was in college a few years back, we were having a discussion similar to this in astronmy class. The professor told us that everything came from the big bang. It was all composed of compressed hydrogen and everything got sucked into it until one day it exploded. VOILA! Since that time, the hydrogen atoms combined and changed to form new elements and eventually life. A bunch of us looked at him rather puzzled and asked ...'so where did the hydrogen come from'..

 

His responed with a very straight face when he said...."if we cannot answer the question, we do not address it' . Now THAT is perfect material logic

 

I accepted a long time ago, that while all this stuff might be true (or not), it is unimportant whereas finding the person who created it is by far the more important knowledge.

 

 

YS

JayaLalitadd

[theist]

 

When I was in college a few years back, we were having a discussion similar to this in astronmy class. The professor told us that everything came from the big bang. It was all composed of compressed hydrogen and everything got sucked into it until one day it exploded. VOILA! Since that time, the hydrogen atoms combined and changed to form new elements and eventually life. A bunch of us looked at him rather puzzled and asked ...'so where did the hydrogen come from'..

 

His responed with a very straight face when he said...."if we cannot answer the question, we do not address it' . Now THAT is perfect material logic

 

I accepted a long time ago, that while all this stuff might be true (or not), it is unimportant whereas finding the person who created it is by far the more important knowledge.

 

 

YS

JayaLalitadd

 

Me too JLdd. Everything points to the Supreme Intelligence. Krsna can reveal Himself through astromy or any other science. In that sense is science not another form of scripture?

 

Your professor is similarly to Duryodhana who wanted Krsna's army (energy) and not Krsna Himself whereas the Pandavas were satisifed with Krsna, His energies not being a concern. The former is based on exploitation and the later on love. This is really the dividing line between the devotee transcendentalist and the demon materialist.

 

99% of these teachers are employed by Hiranyakaspu. We want to be like Prahlada so we can not listen to them or allow our children to be under their influence.

 

Science belongs to Krsna and not to the atheist.

[stymvjyt]

God is the force behind sudden surges of consciousness, while Nature is the mechanical processing that provides a basis for God to work on.

[theist]

Saw the last few minutes of an interview with the author (forgot his name already). He is not at all impressed with religion but he has found the revelation of God's existence quite apart from religion. He has a book out called The God Theory. I like this move of more and more top scientists who are honest enough to follow the facts where they lead. That is true science.

 

 

 

As an aside maybe these threads should be released to the general stack. Just a thought.

[bhaktidd]

or literally: by all knowledges I am to be known.

 

and so by any form of knowledge one can prove the existence of God, if that is one's intention.

 

I saw "what the bleep do we know" and what stuck in my mind was the statement about quantum physics:

 

"Quantum physics has proven that there cannot be a universe without a conscious perceiver".

 

and so, by this very statement they have proven that there must be God, because it's one thing to say that each of us experiences our own universe, that we each are a conscious perceiver, BUT: I am only one perceiver, perceiving one viewpoint, and you also are only one perceiver, perceiving only your viewpoint. SO...

 

WHO is that BEING who consciously perceives all of our viewpoints simultaneously, because all of us who exist do all exist and have different viewpoints simultaneously, so for that to even be possible, according to their own statement, there must be ONE PERCEIVER, who perceives all of us at once....

 

Exactly like Lord Krsna explains in His gita ch13v3: I am also the knower in all bodies.

[theist]

 

or literally: by all knowledges I am to be known.

 

Wow you know I never heard it in that way before. I was making the mistake of assuming it referred only to a certain group of books when really it is the knowledge that those books contain that qualifies them as veda. Since veda means knowledge it should have been obvious but I never saw it.

 

I missed that movie but will catch it when it comes around again.

 

Science when followed to it's logical conclusion MUST accept the Supreme Being.