dilemma

[stonehearted]

Guest: "simply put there is great danger in prematurely entering the sannyasa ashram unless for certain we have been instructed to do so internally and confirmed.

 

one question that many older men we have discussed this issue is how do you put your name on a list to be recommended by the sannyas board that has fluctuated over the years with its sannyas members falling from that position of recommedation; and like yourself, we do not know many of the new faces and names, quite a changing paradigm."

 

Babhru: It should certainly not be done whimsically or for any reason other than to satisfy the Lord and one's guru(s). And how to get your name on a list is a whole 'nother discussion. Although I understand why it's organized the way it is, I think the process I see in ISKCON is to cumbersome and bureaucratic. I think there are a couple of sannyasis in ISKCON who would make good sannyasa mentors. However, my inclination is to go elsewhere.

 

G: "regarding your suggestion of taking example from senior men coming from successful personal relationships and have entered sannyas life, this sagacious advice will well be a good percursor for the aspiring candidate empathic ability to help give others Krsna consciousness ...after all isn't this what our srila Prabhupada wanted,for all his disciples to give Krsna to every one ?"

 

B: Well, I don't see such examples. I would probably be setting the example myself, when the time comes. It's more of a sacrifice to move on from a good marriage to the selfless life of a sannyasi than to just move up to the next rank in the club because you've scored some institutional points.

[Guest guest]

 

It's more of a sacrifice to move on from a good marriage to the selfless life of a sannyasi than to just move up to the next rank in the club because you've scored some institutional points.

 

 

And what of the important step of vanaprastha? It helps prepare the woman as well as the man. The vedic societial model is simply amazing in it's understanding and inclusion for the pyschological drama's that are inherent in human beings.

 

The vedic system seems to push one forward in a way that is both challenging and supportive.

 

As for waiting lists and beauracratic approaches in iskcon I see much of this built in benefit being lost. It becomes a way into a more secure life and as a necessary step to what some have as the real goal, *GURUHOOD*.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

most devotees we know with adult children still yet to leave home have already begun the process of detaching from family life the aspects of Vanaprastha travel pilgrimage etc. many practice now so it does not appear any limitations to tie frames of the change of orders in life it certainly is or should be a mutual parting of ways not tear jerking separations by force of attachment or negative reasoning ie. Im finished with this family nonsense let me take sannyas now !

 

you must have a sense of where you want to go in Krsna consciousness no?

 

are you suggesting something otherwise by your comment ?

[stonehearted]

Guest: "And what of the important step of vanaprastha? It helps prepare the woman as well as the man. The vedic societial model is simply amazing in it's understanding and inclusion for the pyschological drama's that are inherent in human beings."

 

Yes, I agree. I don't think ISKCON has come up with a good picture of what vanaprastha looks like, how it works. So far, "vanaprastha" means "my marriage is finished, for whatever reason." I'm not sure about other missions. As apractical matter, I believe it may appear differently for each couple.

[stonehearted]

Guest: "you must have a sense of where you want to go in Krsna consciousness no?

 

are you suggesting something otherwise by your comment ?"

 

For whom are these questions meant? It's really hard to keep track of all the anonymous "guests." Why don't you folks at least reister with fake names, like the rest of us. Even better, why not let us know who you are?

[Guest guest]

Babhru Prabhu please accept pranams glories to Srila Prabhupada

there are other questions we have regarding our discussion of consideration sannyasa ashram are you agreeable to further dialogue on this matter ?

 

we hope this meets you well in health spirit...begging to remain ever felicitate in the dust of the feet of genuine Vaisnavas

 

ys gd....

 

gopijanadas@.ca

[stonehearted]

Sure. I think private discussion may be more appropriate and more productive. You could write me at either williamr {at} hawaii {dot} edu or babhru {at} gmail {dot} com.

[Guest guest]

The first vanaprastha post was from me. I lost track of my password.

 

No problem though, time has come for theist to die anyway. I have begun thinking it is me. lol I'll pick another name to identify with for awhile.

[stonehearted]

I would guess that there's some discussion in ISKCON about what vanaprastha means, and maybe even sannyasa. But I was (maybe still am) a member of pamho.net's Vanaprastha conference, and I've seen no discussion there at all. Sannyasa still seems to be an institutional rank awarded to someone in return for loyalty to the mission. Maybe I'm wrong . . .

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

 

Sannyasa still seems to be an institutional rank awarded to someone in return for loyalty to the mission. Maybe I'm wrong . . .

 

 

http://www.iskcon.net.au/sannyasaministry/becomeasannyasi

 

[Guest guest]

yesu bhaktin please research the subject of sannyas in Srila Prabhupada's books ....it is not an ecclesiastical approach that qualifies one for the ashram it is the quantitative humility and surrender to Krsna consciousness that is evident by example of the Vaisnava Sannyasa life.ie. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta remained strict in chastity and preached boldly without fear.

 

likewise the example for those in Grhasta to enter sannyas when instructed internally to take sannyas as was our Srila Prabhupada by his guru maharaja even though Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was no longer physically present. It is a personal belief that when the time comes, Srila Prabhupada will do the calling. His list does not appear to be long.

 

Also regarding here are many aspiring disciples of srila Prabhupada that cannot read that well due to dyslexia, blindness, or other physical anomaeles.....does that disqualify the candidate for sannyas based on the grounds not knowing Bhakti sastra ? or any other scholasticlly reconized scripture ...what does this education prove ?..flowery words of the vedas ? the ability to recite slokas in public ? walk with a danda head held high ?

 

Remember the story of the illiterate fellow crying while reading upside down the sastras ! his sincerety gave him the understanding !

 

Does the ever amended list of personal questioning and requirement prevent what has happened thus far with those premeturely taking sannyas only later to experience some dificiency of character with the indications now there was never the true qualifications present to begin with ?

 

As was discussed previously by stonehearted, gd, and other assembled Vaisnavas regarding the subject of sannyas it certainly holds much more weight that although it presents as being a spiritual delimma it has a spiritual solution not a material list of hoops that infringe on the personal and sacred bond between a disciple and his Guru at that time in life the considerations leaving one ashram to enter another.

 

The sannyas ministy would well due amend the requirement feild to a simple honest recommendation of Srila Prabhupada disciples wishing to enter sannyas life unencumbred by some recommendation from a fellow not really knowing the prospective candidate, and having the four principle defects of human life inherent in themselves although at present artificially called upon to make such recommendations in the lives of others.

 

Gee by the time some of us feel the time is right to go forward to sannyas ashram, with all the present and upcoming sannyas GBC and temple presidents and the opinions of others required for recommendation now, we wont know any of them nor they us.

 

We hope you will accept our humbled suggestion to read Srila Prabhupada's translation of Caitanya Caritammrta as well Srimad Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatams regarding the topic sannyas.

 

WE are sure you will find everything you are inquiring for understanding in these great books of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Srila Prabhupada.

 

hoping this meets you well in health spirit, perspicacious in you spiritual endevors in Krsna consciousness...begging to remain ever felicitate in the dust of the feet of genuine Vaisnavas

 

 

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Main Entry: ec·cle·si·as·ti·cal

 

Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin ecclesiasticus, from Late Greek ekklEsiastikos, from Greek, of an assembly of citizens, from ekklEsiastEs

 

1 : of or relating to a church especially as an established institution

2 : suitable for use in a church

 

In response to stonehearted's observation that it appeared to awarded by some according to their loyalty to the mission I posted a link to the source that shows that is indeed what is taking place. One of the requirements is that the "candidate " must submit a signed loyalty to Iskcon oath. This surely fits the definition of ecclesiastical very nicely.

 

I have browsed Srila Prabhupada's books as you suggest and it is apparent that even a superfical reading of them paints a very different picture then the one presently offered by Iskcon.

 

One must wonder, where did they come up with all this stuff anyway?

 

[Guest guest]

Her we go again -

"I have as suggested browsed Srila Prabhupada's books superficially "-

 

in previous post We suggested you- READ- Srila Prabhupada's books not browse--aughtta take you about the next 30 years. Then the topic of sannyas will have enabled you a clearer understanding of meaning.

 

"Where do they get this stuff "? same place as all the other nonsense -its concocted ideology.

 

There is no etymological definition of the personal renouncement of material life upon acceptance of sannyas nor explanation needed from ones heart when the time arrives for one to take said ashram.

 

You are correct in your query, where do they come up with this stuff? ----but in your vision what is the real basis of the acceptance of Sannyas in this day and age of quarrel ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

 

but in your vision what is the real basis of the acceptance of Sannyas in this day and age of quarrel ?

 

 

In essence it is the same in this age as any other, *exhaustion* with material life. Sannyas is a civil death. Dying to the old material life and taking rebirth into the divine.

 

As to the specifics of the Indian or vedic style of sannyasa I don't see it as very practical at least in the west but some form of monk life as a renunciate would always seem appropriate.

 

But I really dislike the idea of making formal petition to a church body for permission to taking up the renunciates lifestyle.

 

As far as having only browsed Prabhupada's books that is all I have done. But even from that cursory reading I get a clear picture that Iskcon's present system misses the mark widely.

 

Perhaps now you will let me know your answer to the same question you posed to me.

 

[Guest guest]

Babhru Prabhu,

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode accepted babaji vesha (sannyasa) by putting on an old kaupina that was worn by Srila Jagannatha dasa babaji Maharaj. This was his sannyasa, according to the tradition that was prominent prior to the re-introduction of the sannyasa ashrama in the Gaudiya Math by Prabhupada Srila Saraswati Thakur.

 

In the "babaji tradition" which dates from the seventeenth century (there were no "Babaji Maharaj's" prior to the seventeenth century) it was common for a person seeking renunciation to simply put on the kaupina and become a babaji. No mantra was given. Maybe they didn't even take shelter of a guru to get Babaji vesha. These things were happening - it was not an organized system. If you wanted to become a renunciate you went to Vraja or Nabadwip or Puri and you dressed yourself in the style of Rupa-Sanatana and performed bhajan and received your food through madhukari.

 

- murali

[Guest guest]

Srila Govinda Maharaja was looking at pictures of the St. Petersburg (Russia) Deities Guru Gauranga Radha Madhavasundarjiu and commenting on vidhi marga and raga marga. Madhukari refers to saints collecting a little something to eat from door to door, as bees collect from flower to flower.

 

 

Srila Govinda Maharaja said, "I am very happy [with the pujari]"

 

And this Deity — you have seen — How exalted!

[looking at pictures of the Deities] Beautiful! Beautiful!

 

[to his assistant] This fan make that direction — Vaishnav direction. [tells the assistant to swirl the fan in the clockwise direction]

 

When you put in place rules and regulations, automatically you are checking raga marga. Is it not? Rules and regulations you are putting there: don't use your left hand, don't serve with your left hand — this is vidhi marga. And raga marga? After passing urine you can serve Deities — no problem.

 

[room bursts into laughter]

 

And that is the only marga in this (western) world! Vidhi marga is for India. [laughing]

 

I remember an event that happened while accompanying Srila Sridhar Maharaja on madhukari. I cannot eat but Guru Maharaja has eaten. I have seen!

 

[i was] With Guru Maharaja in Yavat [the birthplace of Srimate Radharani]. Myself and Guru Maharaja went to Radharani's husband's house in Yavat. After darshan the panda — pandas are always everywhere — took us to his house. Then he said to his daughter, "Oh Bindi, Oh Bindi! Bring some madhukari for Sridhar Maharaja and this boy" [Govinda Maharaja].

 

And Bindi come running, "What father?"

 

"Bring some madhukari — some roti, some subji."

 

Then Bindi suddenly, in the courtyard, sat down. I have seen she is wearing ghaghra [gopi skirt] so she sat down with the skirt surrounding her [passing urind]. Maybe for 30 seconds or one minute. Then she got up and ran to the kitchen. And I have seen there some water falling. She left without washing her hands or doing anything and gave some rotis and pickle to Guru Maharaja. And I told, "No, No — I shall not take!"

 

But Guru Maharaja taken happily. Then I also taken a little of Guru Maharaja's remnants. But I can never forget this. 56-57 years have passed and I have not forgot it.

 

Guru Maharaja don't care. Guru Maharaja become Gopi. But I am not Gopi — I am Gopi's son maybe — but not Gopi. [laughter]

 

I was a 17 year old boy.

 

When Guru Maharaja was in Vrindavan he forgot everything. He forgot whether he is Brahmin, Sannyasi, or anything.

 

When going to Charan Pahari Srila Guru Maharaja asked me, "Which place do you like? [ruchi pariksha] and I told, "Lalita Devi's house."

 

Guru Maharaja said, "You have got much good fortune."

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

were very nice.

 

Let me ask a question that as someone who is a more or less an outsider it may be easier.

 

Since formal sannyasa was introduced by Bhaktisiddhanta to fulfill a particular social need in that time and place (I believe) then is it possible that that same situation may not exist in the west today and thus should be let go of?

 

Just asking.