krsna Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 A nice answer from Shiva Das: Well that's a tricky question. If a person becomes a disciple of a person without fully understanding the sastric injunctions on the qualifications of a bona fide guru, then even a sincere soul may take initiation from a bogus guru because he is led to believe that the guru is bonafide by other devotees of that guru or promoters of that guru. But after some time if that disciple doesn't study and become aware of the sastric injunctions about the qualifications of a bona fide guru, and if he or she doesn't make the effort to try and see if their guru fits into that mold, then that is their choice. Then they deserve what they get. A sincere soul will make time to study sastra and become informed about the nature of a bona fide guru. If they took initiation before they were informed enough about the qualities of a guru and before they had a chance to see if their guru was qualified, then by study they will realize that and look to see if their guru is indeed qualified. If they are lazy and don't do so, then they are insincere about Krishna consciousness and their choice of guru will be their just reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 That might not be so fair, as not everyone is so shastrically inclined. An extreme example is a mentally retarded woman at our local temple who joined primarily because she has no family, and the vaisnavas have become her family. The only information she gets about Krishna and guru is from the guru at the temple. Others may be similarly simple and not inclined towards study. I think the best advice is to take shelter of Krishna's lotus feet and if things start going from bad to worse, pray that antaryamiji will make the fact evident enough in the heart that this person is not Sri Guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Rebecca said... Oh goodness! Don't you think that Krishna takes care of those who are actually sincere? Of course truth would be revealed to a truly sincere seaker! Krishna loves us more than we do, usually. One who has faith knows that Krishna will surely protect them and give them help for the sucessful execution of devotional service. A sincere person will understand that. y/s Bhaktin Rebecca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 shiva said... ... all I can say is that maybe their is some special mercy for retarded people. But for everyone else concerned saying that they are not sastrically inclined is just an excuse for laziness. If you can hear or read then you are supposed to study the Bhagavatam and other sastra and the writings of the acaryas. It's not calculus or nuclear physics, it's written and spoken in an easy to understand fashion so that anyone with normal intellectual abilities can understand. In response to Rebecca: of course you are right. But the level of sincerity that a person may have may change as a person lives his or her life. A person in misery will be more likely to be sincere in their devotion to God because they have a motivation to be relieved from suffering. But then when that misery ends and that person is experiencing a pleasurable life then that original sincerity may wane. From Bhagavad Gita 7.16 catur-vidha bhajante mam janah sukritino ’rjuna arto jijnasur artharthi jnani ca bharatarsabha TRANSLATION O best among the Bharatas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me—the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute. In India there is a common saying that everyone goes to worship God when he is in distress, but when a person is free from suffering, then he forgets God. So the fact is simply that most everyone who takes up Krishna Bhakti is not motivated by love of God, they are not motivated by the desire to give themselves fully to God. They are motivated for their own self interest. They may want wealth, or relief from bad karma, or they may want to be liberated from material existence in order to enjoy eternally in heaven. These desires are 99.9% of the time the motivating force for people who take to Krishna Bhakti. Often once those desires are fulfilled or appear as if they will be imminently fulfilled, then that person tends to be not so "sincere" in his or her practice of Krishna Bhakti. They become satisfied that their goals have been met or will be met, and they then don't take the process as serious anymore. They may take initiation from someone at first out of ignorance of that person's qualification, and then later they may not really be so much motivated anymore to seek out the truth because they have got what they wanted from Krishna Bhakti. Maybe their mental health or physical health has improved, maybe their bad karma or poverty has stopped, maybe they have full faith that they will be going to heaven after they die. For many if not most people once these objectives have been gained their seriousness about the details of Bhakti Yoga wanes, they tend not to study much, not to do kirtan much, etc. So sincerity is a shifting thing in most people. That's why many seemingly sincere people end up being satisfied with a guru who may not be on a very high level or simply a fraud. They feel that the thing they wanted from Krishna Bhakti, the motivation they had which inspired them to Krishna Bhakti in the first place; has been fulfilled. Often they end up being intellectually lazy after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted October 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 Rebecca said... Yes, I agree, Shiva Prabhu. I often do not elaborate as much as I should. When I spoke of sincerity, I meant a genuine sincere interest in Krishna Consciousness as a goal and not a means. I also had in mind a continuum of sincerity where the purity of it is naturally responded to by Krishna with increasing understanding. I make a distinction based on the nature of motivation, which I suspect may have a correlation with the endurance of the sincerity. The sincerity I was speaking of would be of a lasting kind, not one that flickers depending on material desires and their fulfillment. I should have defined my terms. If one does not receive necessary understanding of any particular thing in spiritual life - be it gurus or proper chanting - I tend to see it as a result of the nature of the individual's relationship with Krishna. There must be some lack of sincerity (for achieving the actual goal of pure devotional service), faith, purity. I am convinced that Krishna does indeed take more steps towards us than we do toward Him, so if there is some problem in our spiritual lives, it is indeed OUR problem. At the same time, I do not recommend using this for a cold hearted approach to others. Getting out of illusion is simultaneously the most difficult thing and simplest thing there is. Knowing that helps me to feel some compassion for suffering souls, esp. since I am one myself! At the same time, I always try to help others move forward towards Krishna as best I can. Anyhow, that is my current understanding of things. Hopefully I am not too far off! /images/graemlins/smile.gif y/s Bhaktin Rebecca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 I just don't think it's so simple as "they deserve it because they did not leave the guru." Sure all is from our karmic reactions, but krishna will take care even if the reaction is bad... if you got a reaction that does not mean krishna does not care. These reactions are mechanical- that's just how it goes prabhu. It's kaliyuga, there will be false and fallen gurus. It's a very sad business. /images/graemlins/frown.gif Will God let a sincere soul be attracted to bogus guru? If Krishna leads you to it, Krishna will lead you through it. Sounds cliche but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2005 Report Share Posted October 20, 2005 >>> Knowing that helps me to feel some compassion for suffering souls, esp. since I am one myself! At the same time, I always try to help others move forward towards Krishna as best I can. --- What i've learned from my own pain... it softens the heart towards others. Jai Rebecca! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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